Is it just me?

[+Hen & Jen]

Or do others feel that it's just too much trouble to do Earth caches, there are a few near me that annoy the hell out of me because they clog up my map, I would do them, but the amount of effort needed to log them is just too much for a hobby, the CO's require so much info to be passed that its almost like a school exam to log them, I may spend maybe at the outside 30 mins doing a normal cache and log, but it would take over an hour to do an EC. if you want to educate us into geology then make it easier.

[+lee737]

It might be (just you)....

We love EarthCaches... they are often in nice spots, with interesting geologic formations. Generally answers are simple observations or reading the cache description, or a quick google - you might even learn something in the process? 

Then again, you can just skip them too.

[+barefootjeff]

EarthCaches are a bit of a Jeckyll and Hyde thing for me. Some I've really enjoyed, like Redhead: Into the Permian Age (GC8K5D1) which showcased some amazing coastal geology across its eleven waypoints or Salt of Awaba (GC60V52) which involved taking home a sample of lake water and boiling it down to measure its salinity, but there are others I've attempted where I've ended up just staring at the question with no idea of what it's asking or how to answer it. I even had a love/hate relationship with my own EC which at times could be difficult to observe or even safely reach, and it was with something of a sense of relief that I archived it recently when repeated flooding over the last two years filled the geological feature with silt.

 

So really it pays to be selective, get to know the sort you enjoy, look for others by those COs and use your ignore list to hide away the ones that leave you staring blankly at the screen.

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, Hen & Jen said:

they clog up my map

How do they clog up your map? The saturation guidelines don't apply to EarthCaches because they don't have physical waypoints.

[Neos2]

It might be you, though probably not just you. Not all cache types appeal to all people. I'm not overly fond of multi-caches, and I've only done about 10 or so ever. 

I've planned trips around finding certain EarthCaches; obviously I'm a fan. Not every EarthCache entices me, though. Once, on a longish trip we deliberately skipped one EarthCache that sounded wonderful, but required visiting 7 different parks in one state. Visiting parks is right up our alley, but we only had one day to spend in that state and we felt that would have made for one very rushed adventure. 

As for your map, you could just uncheck EarthCaches from the filters list of what shows--then they can't nag you being there unfound. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Neos2

[+arisoft]

11 hours ago, Hen & Jen said:

the CO's require so much info to be passed that its almost like a school exam to log them

 

I know what are you thinking. I have seen some that needs more than visiting the site and reading the description to answer. Sometimes the most difficult part is to understand the question. For example, one EC question was "Explain the meening of the thing you can see in front of you if you look north in your own words."

Here is what you see. You must use your imagination to answer correctly.

 

[+dprovan]

My guess is that it's those EarthCaches. I've run into very few EarthCaches that take an hour in the field. Most take a few minutes. Perhaps there's an EarthCache owner or a culture of EarthCaching that leads to EarthCaches that are more complicated than the norm.

[+terrierlanding]

I really enjoy them but I'm also the sort to read non-fiction books for fun. If I don't have the time I feel I need to gather the answers, I skip the cache and will go back at another time. I would suggest marking the ones that annoy you on ignore so they won't show up.

[+terratin]

You could put them on the ignore list, and when you're zoomed in enough you won't see them anymore. Simples.

 

Btw, judging by my stats I do seem to like ECs a wee bit

[+NanCycle]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:06 AM, Hen & Jen said:

Or do others feel that it's just too much trouble to do Earth caches, there are a few near me that annoy the hell out of me because they clog up my map, I would do them, but the amount of effort needed to log them is just too much for a hobby, the CO's require so much info to be passed that its almost like a school exam to log them, I may spend maybe at the outside 30 mins doing a normal cache and log, but it would take over an hour to do an EC. if you want to educate us into geology then make it easier.

It's not just you.  I've done a few, but passed on many more because the requirements were just too much like a school exam.  If I'm going to be near one I'll read the description and usually decide to skip it as being just too much work.  

[+vw_k]

In my experience the difficulty of earthcaches varies. Some have involved a lot of text on the cache page that needs reading and several questions that are hard to understand and answer. Others have just involved one or two simple questions and have been a breeze. Then there was the one where I gave the answers to the CO in person at an event, I got most of them wrong but he was happy to correct me and allow me to log the cache.

 

The fact that unfound caches "clog up my map" isn't an issue for me, there will always be puzzles I can't solve, high terrain caches I can't access or hides that just don't interest me. One of the great things about caching is you can tailor the game to your own interests, choosing to do the caches that you like and ignore the ones you don't.

[+Awesnap]

The trouble it takes to find an earthcache pales to that of the effort going into placing it. Almost all cache types can be dropped in a shopping center parking lot in the blink of an eye without breaking a sweat. But if someone wants to list an earthcache highlighting a geological feature in that same shopping center, we are expected to contact the owner of the property and get consent.

 

I have written plenty of emails, sent posted mail, attended zoom meetings all in the name of earthcaching.  I have reached out to many different levels of government from delegates to mayors.  Recently a friend of mine had to attend a Town Hall meeting and present his idea to the council.  A few of my earthcaches took months of back and forth to get a "yes"' or "no."  Let me tell you, the "no's" really sting after you go through all that effort.

 

As to why some are more complicated now than the past is that the earthcache has to be unique to that location. No longer can one focus quote signs, or a copy of one a listing that already exists and duplicate it. In my opinion, you don't have to get them all right, just show that you put in the effort, and possibly learned something from the lesson. That the writer has to be careful developing them not to go down "too many rabbit holes" and bogging down the cache write up with too much information. Some EC owners do a horrible job of presenting the lesson and you may have to watch a youtube video or read their references.

 

I have some easier earthcaches, and some harder ones. I get plenty of bad answers usually accompanied by "I usually avoid earthcaches because it feels like homework" logs, and that is okay. Because  the rules are go to the location, make some observations, and send whatever answers you come up with.  The guidelines don't say they have to be perfect (or correct), as an owner I just want you to visit and have a good experience. That said not all Earthcache owners are the same.

 

Geocaching has something to offer different types of cache personalities. I have tunnel crawls, tree climbs, and enigma puzzles on my map I will never do, and that is ok. I do like finding earthcaches as I like learning, and I like being an earthcache owner regardless of the extra hurdles we have to jump through to place and maintain.

[+lee737]

7 hours ago, Awesnap said:

But if someone wants to list an earthcache highlighting a geological feature in that same shopping center, we are expected to contact the owner of the property and get consent.

Why is that?

The way I see it with virtuals is that, since we aren't placing anything there, just advice to go somewhere and take a look at something. If that area has free access for people to come and go, what is the big deal?

[Neos2]

5 hours ago, lee737 said:

Why is that?

The way I see it with virtuals is that, since we aren't placing anything there, just advice to go somewhere and take a look at something. If that area has free access for people to come and go, what is the big deal?

From The Geological Society of America faq on EarthCaches
 

EarthCaches are virtual and involve no container, so why do I need permission to place an EarthCache on some public properties?

Advance permission is required to ensure that bringing people to a site does not cause a conflict with the management of that site. Many sites have multiple management issues, such as the protection of rare and endangered fauna, the protection of archaeological artifacts and the protection of a geological phenomenon. In many cases that protection has been obscurity (i.e. because people don't know about it, they don't visit). By placing an EarthCache at some public sites, we may cause a management issue and so the land manager needs to make sure that the EarthCache fits into their management plan. Furthermore, seeking permission has raised the positive profile of caching in the eyes of land managers, opening the way for all types of geocaching on those lands. We realize that seeking permission to place an EarthCache seems like a superfluous step to many, but it is truly as important as developing great logging tasks!

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Neos2
typos

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, Neos2 said:

From The Geological Society of America faq on EarthCaches
 

EarthCaches are virtual and involve no container, so why do I need permission to place an EarthCache on some public properties?

Advance permission is required to ensure that bringing people to a site does not cause a conflict with the management of that site. Many sites have multiple management issues, such as the protection of rare and endangered fauna, the protection of archaeological artifacts and the protection of a geological phenomenon. In many cases that protection has been obscurity (i.e. because people don't know about it, they don't visit). By placing an EarthCache at some public sites, we may cause a management issue and so the land manager needs to make sure that the EarthCache fits into their management plan. Furthermore, seeking permission has raised the positive profile of caching in the eyes of land managers, opening the way for all types of geocaching on those lands. We realize that seeking permission to place an EarthCache seems like a superfluous step to many, but it is truly as important as developing great logging tasks!

 

 

That's fine for sensitive locations with rare and endangered fauna, archeological artifacts, etc. but most of the EarthCaches I've done aren't in those sorts of places, they're in signposted visitor areas where they want people to visit and look at what's there, or are just on ordinary public land like my now-archived one that was in the intertidal zone on a rock platform at the end of a surfing beach that has hundreds of muggles walking across every day compared to maybe half a dozen cachers a year. I don't even know who the relevant authority would be for that location, as our local council and the state government are constantly at loggerheads over who is responsible for the waterways here (neither want to pay for dredging). Fortunately the reviewer at the time didn't insist I get permission for it.

 

The other thing that comes to mind is from the discussions I've had with the local national park ranger. Under the NSW National Parks geocaching policy, physical caches require permission via an application form, whereas it explicitly says that virtual caches, including EarthCaches, don't. What I got from the ranger is that giving formal permission for a cache puts the national park authority in a position of liability should anything bad happen as a result of the cache, which is why I'm struggling to get permission for a physical cache that's right alongside a popular walking trail (the Great North Walk) due to unfenced cliffs a bit further along the trail but nowhere near the proposed cache, but if I were to put something virtual there (an AL or EC) it's "fine, go for it!" It's much the same with other bureaucracies here who don't want to have to give formal permission for something because of the perceived liability that creates, but have no objection to people just doing their own thing there.

[Neos2]

3 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

That's fine for sensitive locations with rare and endangered fauna, archeological artifacts, etc. but most of the EarthCaches I've done aren't in those sorts of places, they're in signposted visitor areas where they want people to visit and look at what's there, or are just on ordinary public land like my now-archived one that was in the intertidal zone on a rock platform at the end of a surfing beach that has hundreds of muggles walking across every day compared to maybe half a dozen cachers a year. I don't even know who the relevant authority would be for that location, as our local council and the state government are constantly at loggerheads over who is responsible for the waterways here (neither want to pay for dredging). Fortunately the reviewer at the time didn't insist I get permission for it.

 

And there is wiggle room for cases like those you mention--in the Geocaching Guidelines. The bolded text is what I think applies here. 
 

Quote

 

EarthCache permission

Landowner or land manager permission is required for most EarthCache locations. Warn the manager that your EarthCache may bring more people to the site so they can plan for more visitors.

To document permission, post a Reviewer Note with the name, title, and contact information of the person who granted permission. If possible, include a copy of the email that they sent to you.

Public lands are managed in different ways throughout the world. For example, EarthCaches placed on National Parks Service property in the United States will need a special permission. If you are certain that the location requires no permission, explain this in a Reviewer Note.

 

 

 

Bottom line is you can work with your reviewer to see what is enough permission for each particular location. 
 

[Neos2]

To be fair, normal geocaches are supposed to have landowner/manager permission as well. The stringency of regulating those also vary by local and regional laws and regulations. I know some landowners have been shy about allowing permission because they perceive they will be liable. I usually point out to them the disclaimer every geocacher agrees to:
 

Quote

Geocaching HQ and community volunteers are not in any way responsible or liable for caches or their placement. All aspects of your geocache and its placement are your responsibility, and you may be held liable for any resulting consequences. Use of Geocaching HQ services is subject to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. These guidelines are subject to change.

That has gotten me past that hurdle with two or three land managers I can recall. 

And let's be realistic, not all land managers make things that complicated. I have had several say "Oh, this thing will bring other people here to our special spot? Sure go ahead! Do you need my name and extension number?"

[+niraD]

6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Under the NSW National Parks geocaching policy, physical caches require permission via an application form, whereas it explicitly says that virtual caches, including EarthCaches, don't.

If the geocaching policy says that virtual caches, including EarthCaches, don't require explicit permission via the application form, then that should be good enough. My EarthCache was placed in an open space with a geocaching policy that gave permission for caches that complied with its requirements. There were additional requirements (beyond Groundspeak's guidelines) for physical caches, but not for virtual caches, including EarthCaches.

[+Awesnap]

5 hours ago, Neos2 said:

Bottom line is you can work with your reviewer to see what is enough permission for each particular location. 

I agree, and they do. Both GeoawareUSA9 and geoawareUSA10 have been great to work with. I have had 14 of my 67 earthcaches published without getting permission (though a few of those 14 I proved that I made serious attempts to reach out to their local government agencies). I have only had 5 that I remember where I failed to get landowner permission (Only one that gave a flat out "NO!") that were never published.

[+Harry Dolphin]

When my nephew and I put an Earthcache in a county park, we were told we needed permission from the county park.  The cache was about iron mining and magnetite.  The cachers who found it loved the chores with the magnetite!  The county park required a few changes in the cache page.  Then she said she knew about my other caches in the county parks.  

[+lee737]

15 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Under the NSW National Parks geocaching policy, physical caches require permission via an application form, whereas it explicitly says that virtual caches, including EarthCaches, don't.

Lucky for us I guess....

[+lee737]

15 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

What I got from the ranger is that giving formal permission for a cache puts the national park authority in a position of liability should anything bad happen as a result of the cache, which is why I'm struggling to get permission for a physical cache that's right alongside a popular walking trail (the Great North Walk) due to unfenced cliffs

I think they are being overly conservative.... people rock climb and abseil in signposted areas for same in NPs, and are accidentally killed/injured in doing so at times..... they haven't banned that yet. Who only knows why geocaching gets the 'special' treatment??

[geoawareUSA9]

On 5/24/2023 at 1:51 AM, barefootjeff said:

Under the NSW National Parks geocaching policy, physical caches require permission via an application form, whereas it explicitly says that virtual caches, including EarthCaches, don't.

 

That sounds very similar to the U.S. Forest Service policy in effect for North Carolina, USA. Blanket permission is given for non-physical caches on those properties, so I don't require cachers to get it.

 

If I was submitting a cache in such an area,* and a reviewer asked me to provide proof of landowner permission, I would politely remind the reviewer in question that the land manager's policy does not require it.

 

*I don't publish my own caches. It's very important that I be held to the same standards as everyone else, so I submit 'em for review, and I fix whatever I'm told needs fixing.

Edited May 31, 2023 by geoawareUSA9