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state/provincial flags


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Hi,

 

I wanted to submit the flag of the Dutch province of Utrecht, but I couldn't submit it at municipal flags, because they clearly state that flags of US states or similar political entities can't be submitted. Flags of organisations only accepts flags of non-political entities. It seems that there is a gap for a new category. I suggest making a new category with the same rules of the flags of organisations, which means one entry per flag, visits to other locations with the same flag accepted. What do you thinks about this idea?

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35 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

In my opinion, 

way too prevalent.

 

That. Exactly.

 

I know that there are a lot of countries where this does not apply, some do not even have regional flags. Still, we need to consider the densest area to prevent a mess created by reckless number huntig waymarkers. And the US is not even extreme. When there, I saw quite a lot of state flags, but this was only a tiny fraction of what I am used to at home.

 

  • Upvote 1
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I'd say that Flags of the world could be the category you are looking for. To quote the expanded description:

 

This category accepts flags of:

  • Countries (current and former)
  • States/Provinces (as long as they are the largest subdivision of a sovereign country)

Alas, it might be a bit difficult to find the needed four flags of other provinces beside the one you mentioned as this is another requirement ... .

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I didn't know that flags of the world also accepts state/provincial flags, thanks familiefrohne. It's really difficult i've found to find multiple flags together. I agree that the flags of states and provinces are prevalent. Maybe it's a good idea to limit the category to one particular state/provincial flag per state/province:

 

If the flag of Texas/Utrecht is already waymarked in the state Texas/Utrecht, I should visit the existing waymark. If I find one in a different state/province, for example Wisconsin/Zeeland, which would be a rare find, I can make another waymark of the flag.

  • Surprised 1
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52 minutes ago, Becktracker said:

I didn't know that flags of the world also accepts state/provincial flags, thanks familiefrohne. It's really difficult i've found to find multiple flags together. I agree that the flags of states and provinces are prevalent. Maybe it's a good idea to limit the category to one particular state/provincial flag per state/province:

 

If the flag of Texas/Utrecht is already waymarked in the state Texas/Utrecht, I should visit the existing waymark. If I find one in a different state/province, for example Wisconsin/Zeeland, which would be a rare find, I can make another waymark of the flag.

This would be an option if the officers had technical support to follow such rules.

 

They don't. The Waymarking site is not equipped to deal with non-unique subjects in different locations (more than half a mile away, this is).

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It seems to me that limiting it to one waymark per state/territory/country would make it very difficult for some waymarkers to contribute to the category.  Your example of Canada only being able to have 14 approved waymarks in the category would mean that once the 14 have been posted, the only option is to visit the waymarks, which might require travelling long distances to get to the nearest one in such a large country.  

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7 hours ago, T0SHEA said:

 

This is a challenge, there has to be very strict naming requirements.

 

 

With regard to the above, the naming requirement must be that the title of the Waymark be: Name of state/province - Country - - - - and nothing more.

This allows officers to quickly do an alphabetical search for duplicates.

As well, limiting the submissions to one per state/province and one per country is the only sensible way to go, otherwise over prevalence will ensue.

Keith

  • Upvote 1
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2 hours ago, jonathanatpsu said:

It seems to me that limiting it to one waymark per state/territory/country would make it very difficult for some waymarkers to contribute to the category.  Your example of Canada only being able to have 14 approved waymarks in the category would mean that once the 14 have been posted, the only option is to visit the waymarks, which might require travelling long distances to get to the nearest one in such a large country.  

Jona, I think the rules are gonna be like 'flags of organisations' . If you find a state flag in you home town which has been posted already, you can post a visit to the existing waymark with extra coordinates added. 

 

Your comment about some waymarkers can't contribute is a good one,  that's why I propsed to allow a waymark of for example the flag of Texas in multiple states, one per state/province. But even if 1 waymark of a particular state flag is allowed, I see there are about 2000+ opportunities worldwide.

 

The comment of scroogie that the naming has to be exact is a good one

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3 hours ago, ScroogieII said:

ith regard to the above, the naming requirement must be that the title of the Waymark be: Name of state/province - Country - - - - and nothing more.

 

Further to the above, to aid officers in their search for duplicate submissions, the Name in the Title must always be the proper name of the state/department/canton/province (etc.) as defined and spelled by its native country. One who travels abroad must always use the name and spelling as defined by the country of residence of the region, and NOT a translation to the native language of the Waymarker, should one exist.

Keith

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This is the 3th idea I suggested lately which seems category worthy (the other two are 3d printed buildings and pancake restaurants). After my birthday late in august I will problaby become a premium member. I have no problems with someone taking this idea or one of the others and making it into a category. If you're willing toshea you can spearhead this category. You seem to be exited by the idea and have the most practical way of handling the idea. I would like to create 2 out of 3 categories myself in september though.

 

The multiple states-post idea is maybe not so great... I like to add that the flag needs to be waymarked in the state/country it represents. Otherwise someone can 'grab' all the coutries at the united nations building or something similar.

Edited by Becktracker
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2 hours ago, T0SHEA said:

After doing some preliminary research I realized that not all counties are divided into states or provinces. Some others are cantons, departments, parishes, governorates, etc.

There are numerous Administrative divisions. (these are NOT to be confused the towns, cities, municipalities, communities, etc.)

 

A rose by any other name...

Cantons, departments, parishes, governorates, etc. are the administrative equivalents of states or provinces, so no problem there.

Officers of the proposed category only need to be aware of the administrative level of the entity submitted in order to ascertain its admissibility. Again, no problem, beyond a category officer's obligation to become intimately familiar with the administrative structure of some 200+ countries.

No problem... ... BUT I understand there's more than one Wiki for that. EX: Wiki1 - - - Wiki2

 

Then there's the wind, or lack thereof.:wacko:

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII
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8 hours ago, Becktracker said:

This is the 3th idea I suggested lately which seems category worthy (the other two are 3d printed buildings and pancake restaurants). After my birthday late in august I will problaby become a premium member. I have no problems with someone taking this idea or one of the others and making it into a category. If you're willing toshea you can spearhead this category. You seem to be exited by the idea and have the most practical way of handling the idea. I would like to create 2 out of 3 categories myself in september though.

 

The multiple states-post idea is maybe not so great... I like to add that the flag needs to be waymarked in the state/country it represents. Otherwise someone can 'grab' all the coutries at the united nations building or something similar.

 

Back to the important stuff...

The Pancake Restaurants proposal I'm definitely in favour of, possibly because of my history with and pleasant memories thereof.

3D Printed Buildings are an inevitable feature of our future, so why should we ignore them? In their formative years, there are sure to be some truly newsworthy examples which occur often, whether they be architecturally significant or utter failures.

Hence, this could well promise to be a category sure to drag all of us, kicking and screaming, into the twenty first century.

Should you want help with either, just give me a shout. I'm unwilling to assume leadership in either, but officer ship, or simply aiding in category creation, I'm quite willing to undertake.

... ... ... "After my birthday" ... ... ... What?!?!?! :blink: :wacko: :D At present you're TOO YOUNG to achieve full membership??? Had no idea there was such a requirement! :D

 

In any event, I'm now looking forward (with appropriate trepidation) to September, in spite if its being a harbinger of fall/autumn, which is ofttimes followed by, OH GAWD - Winter!

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII
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I'm waiting on some money or gifts to pay the 30 euro membership fee, as we have to budget ourselves due to an impending vacation (and home renovation).

 

I think the category state/provincial/national flags is more clear than world flags multifarious, as the last one is bound to give everybody some headbreakers. There is also a state/provincial parks category so why no state/provincial/national flags?

 

The first wiki list suggested by Keith is a good basic guideline. There are some exeptions though like Belgium and the Netherlands where the provinces are at the second level of administration or Iceland or the Marshall Islands, where the first level of administration clearly has a municipal character (and there is already a municipal flags category). Do the 'regions' of England count (if they even have an own flag?). Certainly a good idea to supply the wiki list in the category description.

 

To sum up the agreed requirements:

-One waymark per state/province or country flag

-Name the waymark like this: Native state/province/country name - city, country ie Texas - Dallas, United States or Utrecht - Rhenen, the Netherlands

-The flag has to be photographed in the state/province/country it represents

-If the flag has been posted already, visits can be made from all over the world with added coordinates if the same flag is encountered.

 

Some other things we haven't discussed yet (but surely agree)

-Three photo's, at least a clear view of the flag (at least all the colours and symbols have to be distingable), where the flag takes up most of the picture. This is gonna be the default waymark picture. A picture of the flagpole or standard and a picture of the environment.

-Just standard flags, no shields, banners of bumper stickers. 

-A description of the flag and the respresented region in the long description

-Only current state/province/national flags accepted.

 

PS: Off-topic but funny; this category is gonna be quite fun for a waymarker in Uganda, as there are for some reason 139 districts and one national flag...

Edited by Becktracker
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On 8/4/2022 at 10:25 AM, Becktracker said:

Do the 'regions' of England count (if they even have an own flag?)

 

Depends on how pedantic you want to be...

 

We have, at the top of the list the  UK with the Union Flag (Often called the Union Jack)

 

England, Scotland, and Wales, have their own flag. (Of their patron saint) - Northern Ireland may be considered as part of the UK. It IS, but GS have it as part of Ireland...

 

Each County has its own flag. (Discussion as to which boundaries you use, historic or 'new')

 

Each District may have its own flag.

 

I live in a town, which does have its own flag, a lot of towns dont.

 

Lowest level of governance is Parish Council, most dont have a flag.*

 

 

*Whilst I live in a town, the governance level is that of a Parish Council, with a little bit 'extra' due to 'reasons'!

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After some consideration, I picked up the gauntlet and made a group to create this category. Search for 'fun with flags'. Please join to help me make this category. I would appreciate it this time if any critique is posted in the thread instead of waiting for the peer review and then voting 'no'.

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I've made a draft for the category descriptions. Maybe this will encourage some to join the group as we stille need officers:

 

The development of flags is closely linked to the development of countries and states. Flags were used at least since ancient times. The Ancient Egyptians used flags and each legion of the Roman era had their own banner. The relation between a political or cultural entity and a certain flag started truly in the Medieval era. The colors and heraldic symbols from the weapons of the chivalry formed the basis of the first known ‘country flags’. The flag of Austria for example, two red lines with a white line in between, was derived in the 13th century from the weapon of house Babenberg, which ruled most of Austria before the rise of the Habsburg dynasty. The flag was reinstated when the Austrian-Hungarian empire crumbled at the beginning of the 20th century. The flag of Japan (The very famous Minamoto or red dot on white) was derived in the beginning of the Medieval era from an earlier model which the Japanese Emperor used. This earlier model showed the golden, rising sun.

Most flags were used by the military of the countries (or their naval vessels) long before the flag was officially instigated. The flag of Denmark (a white cross on red) was depicted in a book from 1370 and the flag has been officially instigated as the official flag of Denmark since 1625. It is the oldest continually used flag present.  It became commonplace to represent a country or military force by a flag during the end of the Medieval era.

Most countries developed a common flag to be used by the civilians, national army or to represent the state or country. Some countries have a separate ‘state flag’ or government flag for official (diplomatic) occasions. For example, Spain has a state flag with the weapon in the centre and a civilian flag without the weapon. The state flag of Denmark and other Scandinavian nations has a forked tail.

In the wake of countries (and municiplaties), the separate states and provinces of a country (mostly first level of administrative division) began to design a specific flag. All states in the United States of America developed a flag in the 19th and 20th century. Likewise provinces in other countries designed an own flag. There are now more than 1000 flags available for countries (civilian and state flags) and states/provinces. Our mission is to find all of them.

 

Posting instructions

Find a flag representing a country (be it a civilian or state flag, see above) or representing a state or province (or an administrative division equivalent to a state or province). We use this list as a guideline: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first-level_administrative_divisions_by_country . A guideline because in some countries the province level is at the second or third level (like Belgium and the Netherlands) and in some countries the first level clearly has a municipal character. When in doubt, a flag should be submitted to the ‘municipal flags’ category. A specific flag can we posted only once. Note that overseas territories or autonomous regions often also have an own flag. Note that when we use the term flag we don’t mean shields, depictions of the flag through for example graffiti, bumper stickers or number plates. Only actual flags mounted on flagpoles can be submitted.

We like to make a list of ‘current’ flags. If you find an old state flag in for example a museum it can’t be submitted to the category because it would be very hard for the other waymarkers to find. If a flag changes to a new version, a new posting of the flag can be made.

The flag found should be located within the territory that it represents. The flag of the state Texas can only be posted if found within the state Texas, not if it is found in the state of Oklahoma. Likewise it isn’t possible to post a country flag at an embassy as that embassy is located in another country. To make it possible to search for possible double postings, the category has some strict requirements:

Naming

Name the waymark in this way: name of the country/state/province in this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first-level_administrative_divisions_by_country – type of flag – city, country . For example: New York – flag of the state – New York, USA or Spain – state flag – Madrid, Spain. Please don’t use: flag of, country of, state of in the name as that makes it very difficult to search for a duplicate.

 

Coordinates

The coordinates of the waymark should be of the flag, not of your viewing position. Please be sure that the flag is located within the territory that it represents. If you can make a clear picture from across the border, go for it.

 

Photos

Make a clear photo of the flag. All colors and significant emblems have to be visible on the photo. You need a little bit of help from the wind to get the photo so don’t attempt it on a wind-free day. Make another photo of the flag and flagpole and a third photo of the surroundings of the flag and flagpole.

 

Descriptions

In the short description tell us where the flag is located. In the long description you should make a description of the flag and it’s components. Tell us about the history of the flag. A description of the (history of the) country, state or province is also required. You can use copied texts from the internet, but when you do, make sure to properly cite the sources.

 

Variables

Note down when the flag was officially instigated. Rate the flag.

 

Visiting instructions

When a flag has been posted, waymarkers from all over the world can visit the waymark if they encounter the same flag. When visiting, you need to make a clear photo of the flag and note down the coordinates where the flag is located. Please remember the difference between civilian and state flags in some countries.

 

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I made my comments earlier. My opinion has not changed.

 

It is not a good idea. A complicated category description can only make it worse.

 

A great category is sufficiently defined by the title alone.

 

Sometimes it is necessary to make additional restrictions and deal with edge cases in the expanded description, I know. I had to do that several times. It can make a category better manageable, but it cannot make a category better, and your specific ideas would even make the category less manageable.

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According to me it's not a good idea, it's just not interesting

I am not sure we need a new flag category.

If you have 24 flags in front of a building, you could create one waymark in Flag of the world and 24 waymarks in your new category, one for each flag.

Your idea is just the same idea as flags of the world with a different minimum requirement.

So not interesting and redundant

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2 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

Sorry - I agree that this is over prevalent and redundant. If I can waymark every Texas flag I find in Texas - that’s WAYYYY too over prevalent. In Texas, it’s a thang to have our flag EVERYWHERE. 

 

Perky, you need to read more carefully, to wit: "A specific flag can we (sic) posted only once". It's, admittedly, not placed where it should be, but it's there.

Keith

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12 hours ago, Alfouine said:

According to me it's not a good idea, it's just not interesting

I am not sure we need a new flag category.

If you have 24 flags in front of a building, you could create one waymark in Flag of the world and 24 waymarks in your new category, one for each flag.

Your idea is just the same idea as flags of the world with a different minimum requirement.

So not interesting and redundant

The 24 flags are standing in one state/province/country. As only the flag that represents the territory it's in can be waymarked, the waymarker can only make 1 waymark from this flags of the world location. Furthermore, no new waymarks of the same flag can be made, but only visited.

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I'm also not happy with the category according to the description. Some of my main reasons against it

  • the management overhead for the officers would be huge for you have to look up if the one proposed was already posted in the list - resulting in a decline with no possibility to fix it which does make the waymarker, who submitted the waymark, unhappy.
  • the number of possible waymarks is additionally restricted by the list given to 1206 - and some of them do not even have a own flag (like the " United States Minor Outlying Islands "). Many of them are also in countries where waymarkers are not really active and would have to take a long (and probably very expensive) way to reach them.
  • the requirement that the flag must be in the country's region - which reduces the possibility to sucessfully post a valid waymark for the single waymarker. Even if we just only take the 472 active waymarkers of last year I suppose that there would be a run in the United States, Canada and Europe for the available flags. Considering that there were more than 140 of active posters only for the United States last year, successfully posting in that category could be more like a lottery.
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It took me a long time to conjure up a reply to your obviously well-defined objections. As the leader and creator of this idea I should be playing the full-defensive card right now to get this idea from the ground. I find this hard as some of the points are actually valid.

 

Firstly the wikipedia list in the draft is going to be a guideline and I've stated that explicitly in the draft. There are many countries not on the list where there problably are provinces with flags. These flags can be added to the category in my opinion. 

 

Second, the workload of the officers is gonna be more than in other categories as we have to check for doubles. A search for the category in a certain state/country will do though in most cases. That is still easier than the workload in a category like flags of organisations, as all new flags have to be searched worldwide to check for doubles. I personally don't mind this check, and I hope someone likes flags enough to help me and pmaupin with the reviews.

 

And you use the term lottery but I see this a little bit different. I think of It as a free-for-all race. It's gonna be exiting to score the first in a country as with other categories but even more to score that certain flag. The race to score a gold medal in the first to post contest is full-on in the Netherlands and I and the other contesters really enjoy it. Even if you don't like the race or fail to grab the flag you want you can always get an easy visit to score the category.

 

I want to close with a quote from the peer review description: consider that even if you don't like or are exited of a category idea, others may have a different opinion of it 

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