Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
MajBach

A bad day of Geocaching for MajBach.

Recommended Posts

It's a good thing it was a long drive home and a chance for me to cool down before posting this; else we’d be seeing a lot of !@#$@ and &%$#. I’m going to try and speak positively and constructively, but what it boils down to is disappointment with the placement of the caches I ran today. Mind you, I’m pretty new to this myself, so I’m hardly an authority – but everyone is entitled to an opinion, right?

I ran three caches today. The first one, GC13C6, probably would have gone better had I remembered to take my clues with me. Suffice is to say, I didn’t find it. But that’s not what bothered me. This cache is a memorial - a nice one too – for those local men who gave their lives in the WW I. I actually paused for a moment and gave my respects. What bothered me was how many of the locals currently living obviously don’t have any respect. My GPS kept taking me into the bush several meters from the actual memorial leading me to believe that there actually was a cache here and it was not just a virtual cache like I had now assumed. Remember that I didn’t bring anything more with me than the coordinates. Located near this spot were several intact and broken beer bottles, tons of garbage and used toilet paper – yes used, and lots of it! As much as I may appreciate the significance of this memorial, I probably would not select to leave a cache here simply because of the filth.

The next cache, GC13E8 was less than a kilometer away in a somewhat nicer section of the city. The clue for this cache said ‘under the bridge’ which is exactly where I was. In my opinion, any cache that is too small to hold even a pencil should have a hint a little more specific. My GPS was practically begging to display a distance readout in inches, it was that accurate and consistent. However, there were only two places to hide a cache here and it wasn’t present in either. What was there however were the remnant of a ‘exotic picnic’ that last visitors shared under this bridge. Again, my own fault for not reading the logs for this cache in which I would have realized that no one has seen it since last year. Of course, the people who placed this cache have hidden 3 but only found 4 caches and the link to their home page no longer works. Certainly not a responsible geocaching veteran. BTW, if anyone knows how to let Jeremy know this cache is MIA, please do. As I said, I’m pretty new here myself.

But it was the last cache of the day that really got my goat: GC42E6

Now, the comments that follow are partially based upon the accuracy of my GPS, i.e. not being off by more than 300 feet. With the exception of two caches, all caches I have hunted, my GPS has been accurate to with less than 10 feet! A few hours earlier, my GPS (GM100) was giving me some funny reading for about 45 minutes. It was saying I was 15,000 feet high and 20 kms away then it said –ve 1500 meters and 60 kms from position and moving at 30kmh when I was stationary. (Did anyone else notice strange readings today?) I do not think this was a factor however when I went hunting for this cache as everything seemed normal. You should read the description and hint for this cache yourself and look at the map at high zoom.

I started by driving as close to the cache as possible. This took me to the very end of a cul-de-sac with a distance reading of 77 meters. It looked like it was in someone’s back yard! With no entrance to the park, I parked my car at the west end of Norfield Cres. There is a bridge that spans a park and small river here than joins up with the larger river on the map. There really isn’t any parking that I could find that was any more accessible to the cache on Albion road. Nevertheless, there were no recommendations by the placer of this cache on where to where to park at all, as there often is for other caches, so anyone not familiar with the area (like myself) would have to ‘take a guess’. Although the area seemed open enough near where I parked, I quickly disappeared into a bush with steep hills and the river in the middle. Basically, you end up paralleling Norfield Cres., following the river and the fences bordering the back of the subdivision, albeit about 30’+ lower. As I began walking through the bush, I remembered the part in the cache description about ‘crossing some rough area’. In addition to the uneven terrain however, I discovered 7 discarded bicycles, 1 mattress frame, 1 mattress, enough beer bottles to buy a GPS, 3 shopping carts and a plethora of other refuse. As I rounded the bend and headed south, after crossing the stream several times just to get this far, the surrounding area was a little less dense. I then found the ‘sewer’ with the 42 on it and began homing in. Well, homing in isn’t a very good word for it. Although there is a distinct path here now, (it follows the main river, perpendicular to Albion Rd – if only I had of known!) there are also several barely recognizable paths that go in every direction. Certainly none of them could be classified as a ‘side trail’ to the cache. What’s more is that the sewer is no less than 80 meters from the cache! I’m thinking to myself, ‘they could have said it was east of the airport and it would have been just as helpful’. So I continue following my arrow, which is next to impossible considering the density of the vines in this area. Yes, you come to an area with those really tough dried vines covering everything! I’ve got about 15 minutes of daylight left, I haven’t been any closer than 25 meters to the cache and I know I am not going to get any more help from the clues (I did have the cache description with me on this one). I know than WHEN I find this thing; it is going to be that much more rewarding for me, considering the effort so far. I am now to the point that the only where left to go is up a steep, very steep embankment to narrow the distance to the cache. I could ascertain that the cache was indeed in this direction and at the top of the hill because of various bearing and distance readings from out in the open, about 30 meters from the cache. But make no mistake, it is a long 30 meters and the GPS is all but useless in the very heavy cover. I’m now at the top of the hill, hanging onto a fence in someone’s backyard. Moving back and forth, I get a reading as small as 4 meters but no better. I’m looking for a plastic bag, all the time hoping no one in any of the three or four houses that can see/hear me near their backyard is phoning the cops; there is absolutely no reason for someone to be hanging out here and anyone from the area knows full well it isn’t easy to get to where I am standing. The place is littered with debris and garbage, it’s almost dark, and just about any of it could be a white plastic bag. Just when I’m ready to pack it in, I see something underneath a bunch of fallen branches. Whoopee! Well, it’s about time anyway. I walk down the hill to approach it, moving 6 feet in anyone direction seems like I’m taking a risk. I reach my hand out to grab the container while holding onto a small tree for balance. Mother #@$@#, it’s just an empty gallon jar.

I was done for the day.

Now that I have rambled on like this, I am trying to remember what my point was when I started. I suppose I walked away thinking ‘that wasn’t any fun at all’. It wasn’t just because I hadn’t found the cache that I had a bad taste in my mouth either. Again, geocaching is supposed to be fun. That doesn’t mean you have to find the pot of gold either. I’ve been on several cache hunts that I haven’t found the cache but was very glad I went looking. Usually it’s because it’s in an beautiful area, often close to where I’ve lived for the past 34 years and not even known about it. But there was nothing appealing about this area to look at. The clues were not clues at all either. I mean, I know it is not a rule written in stone but doesn’t common sense suggest that a clue, (or cheating), be a description of where to locate the cache that is one step closer than the accuracy of the average GPS? If the average GPS is accurate to a 30 foot radius, that leaves a very large area to hide a small bag or Tupperware container in. Further, this cache was placed in a spot that made a cache hunter look VERY suspicious. I mean, you’re right in someone’s back yard! I have very little doubt that in one of those houses lives a geocacher and the placement of this cache was selected to make it easy to constantly keep an eye on it. That may sound innocent and fun for the person hiding the cache, but it makes for a very uncomfortable experience for those looking for it.

Geocaching is like fishing, catching a fish may be the point of the entire trip but just because you get skunked, doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth going. This is probably about the eighth or ninth cache I’ve searched for in vain in the Toronto area. Right now I feel it will probably be my last Although I have carted out some garbage with me on a few of my geocaching excursions, I cannot help but feel that overall, the joy of the ‘sport’ is lost in the surroundings. I also plan on being a little more vigilant on whose caches I go looking for. I would appear to me that a little experience in finding various caches is required before placing one yourself.

Never thought I’d say this, but ‘That’s just my two cents’.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

1compass.gif

Share this post


Link to post

Your experience made for some great reading, though.

 

Could rehash the whole newbie placing caches bit, but I think I'll just let it stop here. Sorry about your day. I can relate.

 

Go! And don't be afraid to get a little wet!

Share this post


Link to post

That's really rough, 3 in one day. Thanks for the heads up on these caches. I'll be taking them off my list. It's really unfortunate, if a brand new cacher had this experience they may never cache again.

 

Regarding GC13E8, I looked at the cache owner profile and there appears to be no activity in 2002 (either hiding or finding). The cache has been missing since August 2001. It should probably be reported to the moderator of the Canada forum, 300mag. In my humble opinion it should be archived, to prevent people who haven't read the logs from wasting their time and gas money to get to the site.

 

I'm not too sure what should be done about the GC13C6. It's really too bad that this area been ruined by trash but even worse human waste. I think you're correct in warning people about how filthy the area is. Perhaps the condition of this site should be reported to Woodbridge councillors. I found a website for the Woodbridge councillor Gino Rosati Ward 2 (Vaughn-Woodbridge)

 

Gino Rosati Ward 2 (Vaughn-Woodbridge)

 

It would be nice if the city cleaned up the area. Judging from the photos gunnqc uploaded, the area looks nice (nice memorial, nice view). It's a shame that the area isn't treated with more respect and that there's no place to safely and sanitarily hide a geocache.

Share this post


Link to post

Oops, forgot to comment on the last geocache you mentioned GC42E6. When I saw this new cache I was apprehensive. The pictures had me worried - sewer block in the middle of overgrown vegetation, young cache owner. Sewer blocks are not usually located in picturesque locations. I added it to our Mapsource software and zoomed into the area on the map and noted that it was just off a cul-de-sac, that made me think it was probably near the cache owners home and that they probably wanted to watch people hunt for it. You have confirmed my suspicions. I'm concerned about the treacherous conditions and the close proximity to private property. It could cause some worry amongst the other house owners. This is all unfortunate because it spoils the experience for the cache seekers and also for the cache owner who I'm assuming didn't want to frustrate people but really didn't know enough about placing an appropriate geocache.

Share this post


Link to post

I was expecting a number of people to jump down my throat with 'don't be such a sore loser' response. I really tried to be constructive instead of critical in my initial post. I'm glad to see so far that the mentallity of Geocahers seems one notch above, well, many other forums. I guess you need to have a brain to operate a GPS. Ha Ha.

Anyway, I take a lot of resposibilty for what happened yesterday myself. Like you obviously do J.A.R.S., I have to 'study' a cache a bit before I go looking for it. When I first learned about geocaching, I uploaded every cache for Ontario into my GPS and whenever I went by one, I went hunting. Experience does make a difference in geocaching. I think now my decision to fork out $50 for membership is now a little more clear.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

1compass.gif

Share this post


Link to post

I AM going to find that dadgum cache that eluded me last night! There is a bug in it with MY name on it!

 

MajBach

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

1compass.gif

Share this post


Link to post

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=17126

 

The above cache was placed here by my 12 year old daughter and myself. The cache is off a paved walk way through a park on the Humber River in Toronto. If you look at the pictures I have uploaded about this cache you will see me and my daughter sitting on a tree. This is right by the cache.Also if you look real hard that is my dog there too, I would never take my daughter or walk my dog through the crap this cacher is talking about. This cache is like all my other caches my family have hidden, Just off a main trail in a park. The area I thought was nice walk on Sunday when I helped my daughter place the cache.

 

I do not live near this site and did not place place this cache out side my door, when I placed the cache it looked to me to be a reasonable distance from the yards that are close to it.

 

I checked my topo map of the area and yes it does look like it is close to a street but one must always remember that there is more then 1 way to get to cache. I will place a topo of the cache and mark where you can park.

 

I read the above post to my wife and she and I agree that this cacher should have contacted me directly with his concerns first and then I could have helped him out and gave him directions.

 

I have met some cachers and I hope this does not tarnish my name in the community.

 

I would like to remind all that before you go look for a cache you need to have a plan and maybe just more then the crappy maps they post on this site. Before I do a hunt I check out the area on my Softmap program and look over the area and plan for parking and other events involed in my hunts. I do this as a family activity and I would never place a cache in an area that was descibed by this cacher.

 

When I placed this cache I walked in on the paved path with my dog and daughter and came to the sewer where a side trail went left, walked along it and found a break in the bush and placed the cache near the first falling tree I came across.

 

The dog did not even get tangled in any branched on the leash as I hate when I go one way and the dog goes the other way around a tree.

 

This is our side of the story and I hope it explains what is happening here. The cache in a nice spot that is a quick intecity hunt that you can enjoy. I have no control about the litter you may see but where I walked it was not as descibed in the above post.

 

For the cachers with there comments about young persons placing a cache remember that a adult most likly was with them and that you should not judge a book by its cover.

 

gm100guy and caching family.

 

gm100guy

Share this post


Link to post

My daughter and I were reading the posts here and she now wants to remove her bug.

 

I told her that as a good cacher we would hope that cachers read the bugs goal and take a bug to help it on the quest for which it was placed and not have someone take it just to have a bug.

 

gm100guy

Share this post


Link to post

quote:
Originally posted by gm100guy:

 

I read the above post to my wife and she and I agree that this cacher should have contacted me directly with his concerns first and then I could have helped him out and gave him directions.

 


 

I fully agree with the above comment. If it were me, I'd feel angry about someone bad mouthing my efforts on a public bulletin board before doing me the simple courtesy of contacting me privately.

Share this post


Link to post

quote:
I would never take my daughter or walk my dog through the crap this cacher is talking about. This cache is like all my other caches my family have hidden, Just off a main trail in a park.

 

As I stated, there were no suggested parking spots and someone not familiar with the area may pick a parking spot (as I did) that appeared close, but really not the most ideal spot since it was no where near direct. If you parked where I stated I did, you would have seen the 'crap' I trenched through.

 

quote:
I read the above post to my wife and she and I agree that this cacher should have contacted me directly with his concerns first and then I could have helped him out and gave him directions.

 

My apologies for my lack of proper etiquette. I thought I was doing the right thing by not posting these comments on your cache page but in a forum instead. I also stated that my perception of where the cache was placed is based on how accurate my GPS was. However, after looking at the map, it does seem to be very close to the backyard of a house.

 

quote:
I have met some cachers and I hope this does not tarnish my name in the community.

 

I don't think you have to worry about this. As I also said, your reputation preceeds you. I've been to a lot of caches and read your logs and saw your trademarks. I never believed you were a irresponsible cacher.

 

quote:
I would like to remind all that before you go look for a cache you need to have a plan and maybe just more then the crappy maps they post on this site.

 

Again, a rule of thumb I with adhere to after learning the hard way.

quote:
This is our side of the story and I hope it explains what is happening here. The cache in a nice spot that is a quick intecity hunt that you can enjoy.

 

Dear GM100Guy, Gucci and especially Lizzie:

I'm heart felt apologies for making you feel the need to defend yourself. Obviously this was not a cache left by a novice as the lizzie's profile would suggest. I did not assume that it was a person of any age that placed the cache, I only assumed you had something to do with it.

 

I would also like to state I had a bad day caching and this one just made it worse. My post was not targeted at your cache specifically, even though it was the majority of the post. Rather, it was an account of my day. In the future I will contact the owner of a cache before 'flaming' it, or I will omit the cache's identity when I feel compelled to comment about it.

Lizzie, I hope I didn't upset you. Please keep Bizzie Bee in the cache, as I currently have GTRacer here and we're going shopping for some skiis for him on the weekend before he departs for the west. I think he would like BB's company.

 

Sincerely,

 

MajBach

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

1compass.gif

Share this post


Link to post

As Forest Gump said "Poop happens". I've gone out and found myself on the wrong side of a river or steep bank. I don't blame the planter. It's all part of the challenge.

 

Good job everyone on being civil. This MUST be the CANADIAN forum!!!!

 

icon_smile.gif

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

4525_1300.gif

Share this post


Link to post

As Forest Gump said "Poop happens". I've gone out and found myself on the wrong side of a river or steep bank. I don't blame the planter. It's all part of the challenge.

 

Good job everyone on being civil. This MUST be the CANADIAN forum!!!!

 

icon_smile.gif

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

4525_1300.gif

Share this post


Link to post

My apologies too, for jumping in publicly with my presumptions about the site.

 

I'm sorry that it turned out to be the 3rd in a bad caching day experience for MajBach.

Share this post


Link to post

quote:
Originally posted by gm100guy:

The cache is off a paved walk way through a park on the Humber River in Toronto......


For what its worth, this paved walk-way is a fantastic trail for roller blading. Great workout going all the way up to Humber College on hwy 27. Its easier going back though. (downhill)

If memory serves me correctly the area is not too bad. The park(s) are nice although its been a few years since I had the energy to skate it.

Anyway if I were in to urban caching then I probably would have had a look at this spot as a possible good cache site.

I'm going to hunt this cache and take my blades along. Be interesting to see what speed I can get up to after all these years.

Cheers, Olar

icon_biggrin.gif

 

Happy Caching, Olar

 

"if you come to a fork in the trail, take it!"

Share this post


Link to post

quote:
Originally posted by gm100guy:

The cache is off a paved walk way through a park on the Humber River in Toronto......


For what its worth, this paved walk-way is a fantastic trail for roller blading. Great workout going all the way up to Humber College on hwy 27. Its easier going back though. (downhill)

If memory serves me correctly the area is not too bad. The park(s) are nice although its been a few years since I had the energy to skate it.

Anyway if I were in to urban caching then I probably would have had a look at this spot as a possible good cache site.

I'm going to hunt this cache and take my blades along. Be interesting to see what speed I can get up to after all these years.

Cheers, Olar

icon_biggrin.gif

 

Happy Caching, Olar

 

"if you come to a fork in the trail, take it!"

Share this post


Link to post

I have read MajBach's post. Hopefully you'll have better luck next time my friend. I have also sent a e-mail to the owner of gc13e8. This cache is now listed as unavailable. If there isn't any response it will be archived.It is important to check on the condition/availability of your cache.

 

[This message was edited by 300mag on March 20, 2002 at 08:46 PM.]

Share this post


Link to post

I am glad to see we have this problem solved about the cache I placed.

 

I think that Majbach should should now delete his log on my daughters cache so other cacher's will not be worried about trying to find this cache and I will delete the one I put pointing to this thread.

 

gm100guy

Share this post


Link to post

GM100 guy: I am not the type to make knee-jerk comments before thinking them out a little before hand. I do not retract my comments about where this cache is placed or about your hint. I do however retract the way in which I did, i.e. posting them on your (your daughter's) cache page and identifying the cache on this thread before writing you directly. I believe I qualified my intentions in my intial post as well. I edited my log on the cache page, but I will not edit anything on this thread. I do not believe there is anything I said here that was exaggerated or improper. People have brains, they can arrive at their own conclusions. I would also suggest that if this is your daughter's cache, then is should be your daughter's comments and not just yours. Obviously your daughter wants to participate but she is too young to geocache on her own and hence your input is required. However, I don't appreciate the guilt trip that's being implied by your reference 'my 12 year old daughter'. I shouldn't have to button my lip to protect the feelings of a 12 year old especially when someone else is speaking apparently on her behalf. You never stated that I was looking in the wrong place for the cache ( so I assume that I was )and you never clarified the hint that you gave which I stated wasn't much help. Based on that, my thoughts towards this cache remain. MajBach

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

1compass.gif

 

BTW:

I don't know if the fact that the two of us use the same GPS has any significance, but if me GPS was giving me a wrong readout because of the cover and I was looking in the wrong spot, then it stands to reason that your's gave you the wrong reading when you placed the cache.

Share this post


Link to post

I went back to cache and took new readings today and have posted a note in the log on what I found.

 

And to you Majbach when you a problem with a cache you should contact the owner first and not air the dirt in the open like this form. I have looked for caches before and not found them and have sent a note to owner and yes gps's are not perfect and they do give you false readings and if you had contacted me first I would have gone back and checked as I have done now and corrected the situation as I now have done and not have to go through all this.

 

As this being my daughters cache you can consider it mine also as 2 can not have joint ownership of a cache and I used her name instead of mine.

 

Being true to sport I will not delete your log on the cache page but let other cachers be the judge and jury on looking for the cache.

 

I can only say I feel sorry for what you went through but it is all part of the sport and as said before you should always be ready to expect and be ready for problems when you cache hunt.

 

gm100guy

Share this post


Link to post

I posted this on another thread a few weeks back, but I thought that it might be worthwhile posting it here again:

 

People who play this game do take “pride” in preparing and placing their caches. The record of their cache, being the cache log, sort of becomes their “pride and joy”. The posted logs are publicly broadcast. When leaving a critical log you are taking a very significant risk that you will be: 1) hurting a person’s pride; 2) Defiling his/her pride and joy; 3) doing this all publicly, and thus shooting an arrow through his/her ego. I presume that with a lot of thought and a lot of tact, you could post a criticism without causing any damage, but I doubt it.

 

Here is my two bits worth as to how valid concerns and criticisms should be handled:

 

1. If your criticism is merely due to your own personal idiosyncrasy, that doesn’t have any effect on the sport as a whole, then nothing need to be said or done. If you’re not sure raise it as an issue on the forums (without identifying the cache).

 

2. If you feel that the cacher has really done something that, if he/he continues to do it, will adversely affect the sport in the long run, then email him/her privately and as tactfully as possible (without being arrogant or condescending) and explain your concern.

 

3. If you feel that other players in general should be aware of your concern, then bring it up on this Forum as a general concern without naming any specific person or cache

 

4. If you feel that it is really necessary that subsequent searchers for a particular cache should be warned of your noted criticisms/concerns then with considerable trepidation you should thoughtfully post these concerns on the log in the most tactful, non-critical manner as possible. Example: icon_eek.gif “ Wow! I really enjoyed the view - had I known it was going to be a bathing suit optional beach I would have left the kids at home and enjoyed it even more!!”

 

I think that if you were to take the above approach, raising your concerns would be accepted for the intended purpose – to keep Geocaching a fun sport for everyone. We can help each other to make sure it stays that way. There is really no need (and for myself, no desire) to get negative and critical in a manner that risks hurting feelings and causing anger. If you would rather take that risk, then don’t be surprised with the response.

Share this post


Link to post

I posted this on another thread a few weeks back, but I thought that it might be worthwhile posting it here again:

 

People who play this game do take “pride” in preparing and placing their caches. The record of their cache, being the cache log, sort of becomes their “pride and joy”. The posted logs are publicly broadcast. When leaving a critical log you are taking a very significant risk that you will be: 1) hurting a person’s pride; 2) Defiling his/her pride and joy; 3) doing this all publicly, and thus shooting an arrow through his/her ego. I presume that with a lot of thought and a lot of tact, you could post a criticism without causing any damage, but I doubt it.

 

Here is my two bits worth as to how valid concerns and criticisms should be handled:

 

1. If your criticism is merely due to your own personal idiosyncrasy, that doesn’t have any effect on the sport as a whole, then nothing need to be said or done. If you’re not sure raise it as an issue on the forums (without identifying the cache).

 

2. If you feel that the cacher has really done something that, if he/he continues to do it, will adversely affect the sport in the long run, then email him/her privately and as tactfully as possible (without being arrogant or condescending) and explain your concern.

 

3. If you feel that other players in general should be aware of your concern, then bring it up on this Forum as a general concern without naming any specific person or cache

 

4. If you feel that it is really necessary that subsequent searchers for a particular cache should be warned of your noted criticisms/concerns then with considerable trepidation you should thoughtfully post these concerns on the log in the most tactful, non-critical manner as possible. Example: icon_eek.gif “ Wow! I really enjoyed the view - had I known it was going to be a bathing suit optional beach I would have left the kids at home and enjoyed it even more!!”

 

I think that if you were to take the above approach, raising your concerns would be accepted for the intended purpose – to keep Geocaching a fun sport for everyone. We can help each other to make sure it stays that way. There is really no need (and for myself, no desire) to get negative and critical in a manner that risks hurting feelings and causing anger. If you would rather take that risk, then don’t be surprised with the response.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, my son and I went out to find the cache. For some strange reason I had 2 different waypoints in my GPS for this cache, one was about 30 m too far west.

 

Anyways, we found it no problemo. We missed the travel bug but by sheer luck the next cache we went to had the bug in it!

 

Rob

Mobile Cache Command

4525_1300.gif

Share this post


Link to post

quote:
Originally posted by mrcpu:

Well, my son and I went out to find the cache. For some strange reason I had 2 different waypoints in my GPS for this cache, one was about 30 m too far west.


 

You probably had two waypoints because the original ones were in error, as rectified by GM100guy.

 

I haven't had a chance to make it back there myself and judging by the Wx forecast - it won't be today.

 

MajBach

You can't have everything.

where would you put it?

1compass.gif

Share this post


Link to post

*BG*

 

Somedays are roses

Somedays are stinkweed,

 

MajorBach you just had a stinkweed day we all get them icon_wink.gif

Share this post


Link to post

*BG*

 

Somedays are roses

Somedays are stinkweed,

 

MajorBach you just had a stinkweed day we all get them icon_wink.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

×
×
  • Create New...