[Feature Request] Introduce an Attribute for Biltema / Fishing Rod Caches

[+TriciaG]

Regardless of all the discussion, logic, and reasoning in this thread, regardless of polls and petitions and pleadings, the bottom line is that it's HQ that will decide whether or not to do it. I don't know how much they consider the discussion in the forums when they make the decision.

[+GerandKat]

On 6/19/2022 at 3:16 PM, The Leprechauns said:

 

Good luck with that.  Would you also like reviewers to enforce your vision of Difficulty and Terrain ratings for these caches?  They'd probably want to double their pay before agreeing to either.

Not even if they rise the pay on factor 1,000

 

On 6/19/2022 at 4:02 PM, Max 1996 said:

As long as reviewers don't actively enforce a consistent rating,

You won't see that at any time, because D/T rating can't be objetivly measured, as our measure will differ from peolpe form other regions (keep it in Germay:  as we're living in northern Germany our highest mountain is something like 168m high, we're not used to climb mountain, so our perspective on steep incline will definitly differ from cacheowners in the alpine parts of Bavaria.

 

-------------------------

We've already said this in the German part of this forum.

The battle on the correct D/T rating for fishing rod cache is nothing but a proxy battle: Those "brainless athlete" cachers who are in favor of high T ratings get mad about the "chubby programmer" now beeing able to get their T4.5/5 grid filled, and those "chubby programmers" get mad about those "brainless athlete" cachers filling their D4.5/5 grid with those fishing rod caches. (If your seeing some irony in this part, your irony detector is working fine, if not please proceed to the irony detector mechanic near you)

 

[+monsterbox]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:59 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Sorry, I was just trying to help. The information in the Australian regional wiki said it's based on advice from GCHQ and I'd assumed that advice would apply globally. Obviously not.

 

As far as the definition of "Specialised Equipment" goes, again apologies for quoting from the Australian wiki but this is their distinction between specialised equipment (T5 rating) and a special tool (attribute):

SPECIAL EQUIPMENT

These are things requiring training to use, safety equipment such as helmets or life jackets, and are not part of the caching tool kit you can carry easily, or the tool kit the average geocacher would carry most of the time. Boats, large ladders, and rope climbing or abseiling equipment are examples. For example, a technical tree climb requiring ropes etc. would be a T5. But a free climb without the need for special equipment would be 4.5 or lower (often much lower). Once you’re up there if it’s hard to open or find the cache then that would be reflected in the D rating. A pole cache (tree fishing) on the other hand, would be generally be low Terrain in most cases if it’s easy to get to the position you need to be at, but higher Difficulty to reflect a tricky manipulation.

I definitely second the terrain part, but I would love to see them being D5! This also includes "tools" and yes, it indeed IS a special tool. Nobody that I'm aware of doing these kind of caches had that tool upfront. Every single one of them extra bought such a pole just for that specific reason. So, please, let them be D5/Tx

[+monsterbox]

7 hours ago, GerandKat said:

Not even if they rise the pay on factor 1,000

 

You won't see that at any time, because D/T rating can't be objetivly measured, as our measure will differ from peolpe form other regions (keep it in Germay:  as we're living in northern Germany our highest mountain is something like 168m high, we're not used to climb mountain, so our perspective on steep incline will definitly differ from cacheowners in the alpine parts of Bavaria.

 

-------------------------

We've already said this in the German part of this forum.

The battle on the correct D/T rating for fishing rod cache is nothing but a proxy battle: Those "brainless athlete" cachers who are in favor of high T ratings get mad about the "chubby programmer" now beeing able to get their T4.5/5 grid filled, and those "chubby programmers" get mad about those "brainless athlete" cachers filling their D4.5/5 grid with those fishing rod caches. (If your seeing some irony in this part, your irony detector is working fine, if not please proceed to the irony detector mechanic near you)

 

Sorry, both true and wrong :-)

Yes, let's say a T4 in Hamburg might be different from a T4 in the Alps. But a T5 or D5 should always be the same. Either something IS a special tool or it's not. And don't tell me, 10+m fishing rod isn't.

So, the next question would be, is it a D5 or a T5? Both include tools! I'm for having them be a D5, as even a wheelchair person could do them and it usually is pretty easy to get to ground zero.

I also don't understand why you reviewers aren't able/willing to come up with at least a German rule that for. You guys do this for events, so, why not for these kinds of caches?

[+dprovan]

32 minutes ago, monsterbox said:

So, the next question would be, is it a D5 or a T5? Both include tools! I'm for having them be a D5, as even a wheelchair person could do them and it usually is pretty easy to get to ground zero.

I have no idea whether this is supported by any of the documents, but just by logic, I've always assumed that t5 meant you needed a special tool to get to GZ -- a boat or climbing gear, for example -- while d5 meant you needed a special tool such as a fishing rod to retrieve the cache once you got there.

[+GerandKat]

3 hours ago, monsterbox said:

with at least a German rule that for.

we don't have rules, we have guidelines, and could you please be so kind, and tell us: where do we find the guideline concerning D/T ratings?

There isn't a guideline about it. So we don't care, if you like to place a d5/t5 on a guard rail, that's okay for us. We might be inclined to ask once if you believe that this pumped up (you know the German term: Schw...vergleich) is correct, but if you tell us, that ths is correct, we're totally fine with that.

Our job is purely checking objectively if a listing is guideline compliant. D/T rating is purely subjectiv. (and yes our players would rather call a fishing rod a special equipment and we don't care, if you move to the container or move the container to you. If they ever are going to place a "biltema" traditional (spoiler they won't) they would list it as T4-T5)

A few years ago we had the German Reviewer Meeting (R.o.T.) in our hometown where we discussed wether we should have a fixed D/T for those kind of caches, and the reaction from the two HQ lackeys was clear: NO, D/T ratings is clearly COs decision, nothing we're reviewing (exept T1 is always wheelchair accessible).

 

3 hours ago, monsterbox said:

You guys do this for events,

 

No, we don't do that, D1 was a fix from HQ, and whatever you're doing with the T rating is up to you...

[+thebruce0]

12 hours ago, GerandKat said:

The battle on the correct D/T rating for fishing rod cache is nothing but a proxy battle: Those "brainless athlete" cachers who are in favor of high T ratings get mad about the "chubby programmer" now beeing able to get their T4.5/5 grid filled, and those "chubby programmers" get mad about those "brainless athlete" cachers filling their D4.5/5 grid with those fishing rod caches. (If your seeing some irony in this part, your irony detector is working fine, if not please proceed to the irony detector mechanic near you)

 

We have similar arguments about caches on little islands, or puzzles that can be solved with a simple solver, etc. if a cache can be easily completed not the way the CO intended, what should it be rated?  That's still up to the CO

 

Alternatively, the COs could just start rating your 'fishing' caches all 1.5/1.5's because of how commonplace and easy they are (with the special tool required attribute, of course) 

Hey if it's about the fun and adventure, not the stats and numbers...

[+niraD]

5 hours ago, monsterbox said:

But a T5 or D5 should always be the same. Either something IS a special tool or it's not.

What about situations where a tool is something most people carry with them every day in one area, but something few people own in another area?

[+GerandKat]

14 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Hey if it's about the fun and adventure, not the stats and numbers...

^this, a trillion times, ^this!

[+dubidubno]

What does "biltema" mean?

[+kunarion]

9 minutes ago, dubidubno said:

What does "biltema" mean?

I had a guess, so I did a little googling and found this:

"Biltema is community slang for Swedish tree caches."

"The nickname Biltema originates from the shop that is infamous for selling cheap rods that work perfectly for these caches."

 

So, I was way off with my guess.  

Edited July 7, 2022 by kunarion

[+Ms Maddy]

I went to log an Adventure Lab bonus cache a few days back and it had an attribute for a Special Tool. And the tree climbing attribute was crossed out. Problem though as it turned out to be a tree fishing geocache. Many COs put a tree fishing symbol in the title, at least. This cache did not have one. 

It was a short walk to GZ. However, if I'd driven or trekked for miles, I would not have been a happy camper to discover this Terrain 1.5 geocache was unable to be logged. AND the CO had the cheek to message me and say it was my own fault for showing up unprepared, as the cache had a Special Tool attribute. I have multiple tools in the kit that can be used for geocaching. But have no intention of purchasing (at some cost) a bulky fishing pole. Some cachers are out there with broken fishing poles as they're not designed for shoving up trees. 

 

Can HQ please sort out the tree fishing mess? I do not expect to be able to log every geocache. Particularly as I'm of small stature. But the proliferation of tree fishing in some areas is a runaway train. An attribute for a pole would be helpful and some way to filter them out.

 

AND perhaps AL bonus caches should be achievable by most of us? Thx. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Ms Maddy

[+Max and 99]

2 hours ago, Ms Maddy said:

I went to log an Adventure Lab bonus cache a few days back and it had an attribute for a Special Tool. And the tree climbing attribute was crossed out. Problem though as it turned out to be a tree fishing geocache. Many COs put a tree fishing symbol in the title, at least. This cache did not have one. 

It was a short walk to GZ. However, if I'd driven or trekked for miles, I would not have been a happy camper to discover this Terrain 1.5 geocache was unable to be logged. AND the CO had the cheek to message me and say it was my own fault for showing up unprepared, as the cache had a Special Tool attribute. I have multiple tools in the kit that can be used for geocaching. But have no intention of purchasing (at some cost) a bulky fishing pole. Some cachers are out there with broken fishing poles as they're not designed for shoving up trees. 

 

Can HQ please sort out the tree fishing mess? I do not expect to be able to log every geocache. Particularly as I'm of small stature. But the proliferation of tree fishing in some areas is a runaway train. An attribute for a pole would be helpful and some way to filter them out.

 

AND perhaps AL bonus caches should be achievable by most of us? Thx. 

I can't even find a recent AL bonus of yours with 1.5T that has a special tool attribute. 

Since the help center does not advise the placing of bonus caches for ALs, I do not foresee any push to make them accessible by most. Even the Adventure Labs themselves can be inaccessible to some.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Max and 99

[+Ms Maddy]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:16 PM, Max and 99 said:

I can't even find a recent AL bonus of yours with 1.5T that has a special tool attribute. 

Since the help center does not advise the placing of bonus caches for ALs, I do not foresee any push to make them accessible by most. Even the Adventure Labs themselves can be inaccessible to some.

What do you mean, you can't find an AL bonus of mine with a special tool attribute? It's not my geocache. 

 

I posted a note on an AL bonus cache that I could see hanging way up in a tree. The CO responded to my note, telling me to obtain a fishing pole. No interest in doing that. Not now, not ever. 

 

"Even if I get it down from its perch, I have no way of replacing the cache 🤷‍♀️"

 

What I'd like to see is a tree fishing attribute, so I can filter them off the map. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Ms Maddy

[+Max and 99]

1 hour ago, Ms Maddy said:

It's not my geocache.

Ones you found. 

Edit: just found a video to watch to see what a biltema geocache is, as I've never found one. Learned something new. The one I watched was way up high!! 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Max and 99

[+niraD]

57 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Ones you found. 

And apparently, Ms Maddy didn't find it either (because it's an elevated cache designed to be retrieved with a special tool).

[+Ms Maddy]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:20 PM, niraD said:

And apparently, Ms Maddy didn't find it either (because it's an elevated cache designed to be re

trieved with a special tool).

Correct... I did not log the cache as it was out of reach. 

 

And you can't see my notes or DNFs. 

[+HHL]

1 hour ago, Ms Maddy said:

And you can't see my notes or DNFs. 

 

Quote

19.11.2022 By Ms Maddy | Found: 10311 Even if I get it down from its perch, I have no way of replacing the cache ?????

Edited November 24, 2022 by HHL