Solution Changes

[+Team Canary]

After a puzzle has been solved and the coordinates updated, there is a blue puzzle piece to signify this.

 

But then the coordinates are changed by the owner for a valid reason, hopefully after advising the Reviewer.

 

I'm stuck thinking I've solved it, unless I check every cache. And sometimes it is years ago!?!

 

Can the corrected coordinates icon be removed after the coordinates change?

 

[+lee737]

I was thinking this exact thing as we struggled to find a puzzle cache (that I had solved in 2016) deep in a glen in the Blue Mountains on Monday..... it hadn't been moved, but if it had, we would have been in strife.

[+Isonzo Karst]

2 hours ago, Team Canary said:

Can the corrected coordinates icon be removed after the coordinates change?

 

This thread seems like it belongs in Website section, a feature suggestion. 

 

As a suggestion,  I can only see this notion working  for those Mystery using the in-house checker.   Use of the in-house checker is optional (use of any checker is optional)  and the checker can be removed by the CO at any time.

 

For all other puzzles, using other checkers, or no checker,  your proposed feature is a sort of check on whether your solution coords are a match for the hidden final coords   And, the final may change, but the cache owner may or may not  updated the coords on the website.  You're trading one uncertainty for another. 

 

Curious about stats relating to checker use, I queried Mystery worldwide

535,932 mystery
33,998 challenge attribute (I believe this is fairly accurate, HQ did a lot of work to get the old challenges updated)
133,149 w in house checker attribute

 

501,934 Mystery, not challenges ~26% of those use the in-house checker.  This number may tend to rise over time.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Isonzo Karst

[+niraD]

3 hours ago, Team Canary said:

After a puzzle has been solved and the coordinates updated, there is a blue puzzle piece to signify this.

 

But then the coordinates are changed by the owner for a valid reason, hopefully after advising the Reviewer.

 

I'm stuck thinking I've solved it, unless I check every cache. And sometimes it is years ago!?!

I suppose you could watch puzzle caches that you've solved. Cache owners often post a note or OM log if they change the final coordinates of a puzzle, so you'd see that if you watched the cache.

[+JL_HSTRE]

If the built-in checker is used for verification and updating the coordinates then if the CO charges the final location the updated coords should change automatically, IMO.

[+MNTA]

2 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

If the built-in checker is used for verification and updating the coordinates then if the CO charges the final location the updated coords should change automatically, IMO.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Personally I believe the 74% ones without a checker should be automatically updated to have one  included. 

[+Isonzo Karst]

1 hour ago, MNTA said:

Personally I believe the 74% ones without a checker should be automatically updated to have one  included. 

 

Some, perhaps many of those caches have a checker. It's just not the in-house checker.   Mystery sometimes have a checker in the form of a "check sum". 

Search, which I used to generate the numbers above,  can only be used to ask for Mystery w/the "Geocaching.com solution checker"  attribute.  There is no attribute for "other checker'.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

<...>

Personally I believe the 74% ones without a checker should be automatically updated to have one  included. 

 

Nope. Checkers for puzzle caches are certainly a benefit and there are all kinds of advantages for both the CO AND the seeker in having one, but I as a CO still want to have control over exactly what kind of 'help' the website or app provides. I can see the argument that the inclusion  or exclusion of a checker might actually be a reason to raise or lower the difficulty of the cache!

 

If I'm OK with a seeker not REALLY knowing whether or not they're going to the right place, it certainly adds a level of intrigue to the cache experience I'm crafting.

 

Some things you can't change, such as having a map or the satellite image, both of which can frequently be used to effectively eliminate the requirement for using a GPS, but I would hate to have another option removed from my arsenal of tools as a CO.

[+Hügh]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

Personally I believe the 74% ones without a checker should be automatically updated to have one  included.

 

In my opinion, "good" puzzles are ones that have been designed so that, even without a checker, the solver can be confident in their solution. GC2XX42 is one that comes to mind. It has no checker, and it certainly doesn't need one. GC8DQXP, GC79GWT, and GC5K823 also. If you're just mindlessly guessing numbers on those ones you're solving them wrong.

 

So force a checker on all the dumb read-my-mind moon-logic ones, sure, but not every single cache needs one.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Hügh

[+Hügh]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:06 AM, Team Canary said:

Can the corrected coordinates icon be removed after the coordinates change?

 

I would worry about sadistic cache owners (ie. me) using this to mess with people. A hypothetical:

 

Quote

Oh no! The wind moved my cache!

 

    N 49 00.000 W 123 00.000 ⇒ N 49 00.000 W 123 00.001

 

Wait! Another gust!

 

    N 49 00.000 W 123 00.001 ⇒ N 49 00.000 W 123 00.000

 

Nothing moved in the end so I won't bother posting a note about it. But solvers will think that the cache has moved! So now they have to re-solve my D5 evil mind-reading puzzle again . Haha. Hope they have fun digging through their year-old notes! If they kept any at all! #sorrynotsorry

[+barefootjeff]

6 hours ago, MNTA said:

Personally I believe the 74% ones without a checker should be automatically updated to have one  included.

 

I have several puzzles where the solution isn't the final coordinates, rather it's the coordinates of a waypoint. From there, you have further work to do in the field to get to the final. The inbuilt checker won't work with those as it only checks against the final coordinates. I've also seen others where solving the puzzle produces a keyword which then has to be put into Certitude to get the coordinates, or maybe three words to use with WTW.

[+ChriBli]

7 hours ago, MNTA said:

Personally I believe the 74% ones without a checker should be automatically updated to have one  included. 

Not sure if that was seriously meant, but if it was I'd like to point out that many puzzles would be easy to BF if they had a checker and the CO might not want that. Furthermore, the in-house checker has only been around for so long, and it is sadly inferior to the ones that already existed. At a minimum, I'd like to be able to see how many solved it and how many failed, and a list of solvers is also nice to have. Especially in cases where FTS is a thing.

[+lee737]

5 hours ago, Hügh said:

"good" puzzles are ones that have been designed so that, even without a checker, the solver can be confident in their solution.

True.... they are the fun puzzles, watching the coordinates appear digit by digit.....

[+fizzymagic]

On 6/16/2022 at 4:56 AM, niraD said:

I suppose you could watch puzzle caches that you've solved. Cache owners often post a note or OM log if they change the final coordinates of a puzzle, so you'd see that if you watched the cache.

Not practical for 10,000+ solved caches.

 

This should not be rocket science:  if a CO changes the final coords for a puzzle cache, the new coordinates are supposed to be reviewed for the change.  At that point, all people that have marked the cache as solved (or any corrected coords) can be notified.  No need for a watchlist.

 

By the way, owners using notes or OM logs to report changes drive me nuts.  The logs fall off the page and disappear.  A note mentioning the coord change should be added to the cache description.

[+lee737]

4 minutes ago, fizzymagic said:

A note mentioning the coord change should be added to the cache description.

+1

I think the only adjustment I've ever made to a puzzle coord of ours were nudges several feet either way for accuracy, when we needed to move one a few hundred feet, we just archived and relisted....

[+Team Canary]

46 minutes ago, fizzymagic said:

Not practical for 10,000+ solved caches.

 

This should not be rocket science:  if a CO changes the final coords for a puzzle cache, the new coordinates are supposed to be reviewed for the change.  At that point, all people that have marked the cache as solved (or any corrected coords) can be notified.  No need for a watchlist.

 

By the way, owners using notes or OM logs to report changes drive me nuts.  The logs fall off the page and disappear.  A note mentioning the coord change should be added to the cache description.

100% agree

[+JL_HSTRE]

19 hours ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

If I'm OK with a seeker not REALLY knowing whether or not they're going to the right place, it certainly adds a level of intrigue to the cache experience I'm crafting.

 

You say intrigue and challenge, I say needless difficulty and uncertainty.

 

If I don't know whether my solution is correct then not only could I be wasting my time looking in the wrong place, but also my DNF is effectively meaningless. The CO could contact me to ask where I was searching, but this adds a completely unnecessary layer of communication to verify my solution - communication dependent on an active, responsive CO.

 

18 hours ago, Hügh said:

In my opinion, "good" puzzles are ones that have been designed so that, even without a checker, the solver can be confident in their solution.

 

There is no puzzle in which I am 100% confident in my solution without a checker.

 

Hidden text? Copy & paste error might occur.

 

Numbers hidden in the image? My bad eyes might misread something. 

 

Decode text that spells out the numbers as words? Transcription errors.

 

A geochecker eliminates human error by the solver.

[+niraD]

5 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

If I don't know whether my solution is correct then not only could I be wasting my time looking in the wrong place, but also my DNF is effectively meaningless.

A DNF log means only that you Did Not Find the cache. That's it.

 

There are any number of reasons why you might not have found the cache. That includes searching in the wrong place because your solution was wrong, because you had poor GPS reception, or because you fat-fingered the digits when entering coordinates. If you tried to find the cache, but did not find the cache, then a DNF log is perfectly appropriate.

 

</soapbox>

[+niraD]

14 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

By the way, owners using notes or OM logs to report changes drive me nuts.  The logs fall off the page and disappear.  A note mentioning the coord change should be added to the cache description.

This isn't an either-or situation. Mentioning the change in the cache description means the information remains readily available. Mentioning the change in a Note or OM log means that anyone watching the cache gets an email notification. It is possible for the CO to do both.

[+dprovan]

On 6/18/2022 at 5:49 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

You say intrigue and challenge, I say needless difficulty and uncertainty.

I'm a fan of checkers, but I still think your logic is faulty. Puzzle caches are, by definition, packed with difficulty and uncertainty. I see no logical reason for us to declare this particular choice for adding more difficulty and uncertainty "unnecessary" just because we don't care for it.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 5:49 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

If I don't know whether my solution is correct then not only could I be wasting my time looking in the wrong place, but also my DNF is effectively meaningless.

I know what you mean, but you're not actually wasting your time any more than you're wasting your time by typing on a wrong answer to a checker. I don't like finding the cache being the only way of confirming my answer, but I still think is up to the puzzle crafter.

 

And your dnf isn't meaningless unless you don't provide any information.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 5:49 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

A geochecker eliminates human error by the solver.

I think a lot of people overlook these reasons for having a checker on a puzzle with a clear answer. It's still up to the CO, but i hope they take these things into account when making their decision.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:49 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

 

You say intrigue and challenge, I say needless difficulty and uncertainty.

 

If I don't know whether my solution is correct then not only could I be wasting my time looking in the wrong place, but also my DNF is effectively meaningless. The CO could contact me to ask where I was searching, but this adds a completely unnecessary layer of communication to verify my solution - communication dependent on an active, responsive CO.

 

 

There is no puzzle in which I am 100% confident in my solution without a checker.

 

Hidden text? Copy & paste error might occur.

 

Numbers hidden in the image? My bad eyes might misread something. 

 

Decode text that spells out the numbers as words? Transcription errors.

 

A geochecker eliminates human error by the solver.

 

I read all your points, but you don't get to make ANY of those decisions for my caches.

 

You say the difficulty and uncertainty is "needless" and you're welcome to your opinion. 

 

If the task I set for you is to set off with a degree of trepidation caused by a the fact that you're not SURE you're going to the right place, then that's the task in front of you.

 

You're gambling that your skills are good enough to come up with the correct solution given the available resources. The wager: maybe a walk in the woods and some time and effort poking around the wrong tree.

 

If you're not up for it, you're welcome to skip my cache.