Banning Caches!

[+The Daniel Boone Gang]

I heard a rumour that the Ontario Provincial Government and the Federal Government were thinking about banning caches from Provincial / Federal Parks. Has anyone else heard about this??

 

If this is true, we'll have to get on the politicians before they formalize a policy about this - easier to stop something before it happens.

[+chris-mouse]

Last I heard, there already were discussions underway about geocaching in provincial parks here in Ontario. I don't know what the status is at the moment though. Perhaps someone involved in that could let us know the latest news?

As far as I know, the people who work in the park don't want to simply ban geocaching outright. I've seen some geocache log entries made by parks staff in which they indicate they like the idea. I've even seen one cache that was turned in to the park office by a non cacher, and replaced in it's hiding spot by one of the parks staff. The parks people are going to want at least some say in how and where geocaches are placed in the parks though. They are required to protect the park environment, so they'll need to make certain caches are kept well away from sensitive areas. That shouldn't be too difficult a restriction to live with, so I don't see any great cause for alarm right now. About all we can do is wait to see what sort of draft policy the parks people come up with.

[+Cache-tech]

I was just about to post this. Right now I have been asked by Ontario provincal Parks and the Quebec provincal parks not to allow any new caches until regulations are in place. I have met with Quebec wardens and they were banning caches outright, but I think I can get regulations in place. I have another meeting soon with another Quebec Park and will follow up on the first meeting soon. The wardens want heavy restrictions and regulations that may be relaxed after a test period.

 

I have also attempted to contact the Ontario Parks so regulations can be worked out. I want to resolve this with both park systems as soon as I can so I do not have to refuse/delay approval of any more caches. I have no recent news about the Ontario Parks. The Federal Parks have not been contacted and I have not noticed any caches being pulled in Federal parks. That has been the only time I have contacted a park system, when the have pulled caches as in Quebec and Ontario. I will post the regulations here when they are drafted if possible for input. Quebec parks may be more of a compliance with little input as they were planning an outright ban.

 

So right now, new cache placement may be delayed in Ontario and denied in Quebec in the provincal parks only. Quebec parks have heavy fines for going off trail, $50 to $1000 depending where you wonder off to. I have picked up 2 caches and will pick up a 3rd on my next meeting, resulting in the release of 1 Travel Bug.

 

There has been no outright ban yet and none talked about in Ontario or with the Federal Parks.

 

Cache-tech

Geocaching.com Admin

[=-420-=Posse']

We the =-420-= Posse' object to Provincial/Federal Parks requesting www.geocaching.com to "refuse/delay" any new caches!!!Sorry folks but this is O.K. and LEGAL till 'our representatives' have made up there minds!So I stress Cache-tech's to do the same

BeNito&BooTz

[Sliver & Lucy]

Thats whats going to happen every where.. The more people involved in geocaching the more people that trample the trails, and unforunatley there are people that do not stay on the trails. Stay on the trails people, there are a;ot of very sensative areas in our forest. Don't need people trampling everything to death/

[McKenzie Clan]

Don't they have anything better to do!

 

For the most part cachers seem to be very environmentally aware, and easy on the environment.

 

Some of the activities by people in provincial parks I camped in this summer were horendous!

 

"Why buy camp wood when I can strip every branch off every tree within a 10 meter radius of my camp site!!"

 

Park officials said NOTHING to these people, but they are being "insert expletive here" with caching.

 

Man alive!

 

It also makes me angry that I have seen some people state proudly on this forum (Geocaching not Canada specifically) "We don't use a trail, thats for wimps, we bushwack everywhere!"

 

That is irresponsible IMO, take the trail and don't leave behind a wake of forest destruction in search of your caches!

 

Scott

[ChiefPig]

This can't be good. I should probably start planning a trip to Banff and Jasper to find the caches there before they are pulled out. How many caches do you have in Ontario and Quebec provincial parks anyways? Seems a lot considering there is this big concern about geocaching DESTROYING the parks.

[+Olar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by McKenzie Clan:

For the most part cachers seem to be very environmentally aware, and easy on the environment.

---

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Unfortunately the "most part" is not a big enough part. Have you ever stood back and watched a pair of cachers stomping and trashing through the woods at a cache location trying to follow the whirly-bird pointer on their GPSR? Usually it can be avoided by a little common sense both by the hunter and hider.

 

quote:

---

We the =-420-= Posse' object to Provincial/Federal Parks requesting www.geocaching.com to "refuse/delay" any new caches!!!Sorry folks but this is O.K. and LEGAL till 'our representatives' have made up there minds!So I stress Cache-tech's to do the same

BeNito&BooTz

---

You are correct. Currently it is not illegal to specifically geocache in Prov/Fed Parks. However if it means us observing a temporary moratorium on caching until an agreement can be reached then we should all adhere to our admins request. It is us that will benefit in the long-run.

 

Cheers, Olar

 

"You are only young once but you can stay immature forever"

[ChiefPig]

That is why I hate caches that require a lot of bushwacking. I think people should as much as possible avoid hiding caches in locations that require a lot of bushwacking to prevent unnecessary destruction to the vegetation.

[mwj]

quote:

---

It also makes me angry that I have seen some people state proudly on this forum (Geocaching not Canada specifically) "We don't use a trail, thats for wimps, we bushwack everywhere!"

---

 

While I agree that is a rather silly comment to make, bushwacking via GPS probably has a minor impact compared to generally "walking off the trial". People usually walk off the trail to see something or avoid mud/water on the trail. As a result, everyone walks in the same place and destroys the vegetation.

 

If you're bushwacking via GPS, chances are that every such person takes a slightly different route and so causes minimal damage. Plants are quite capable of recovering from being stepped on occasionally, it's just being stepped on 50 times a day from May to October that causes a problem.

 

The most important thing is that if you are going to go off trail pick a random route, not the easiest or most direct one. If you're going off trail "just a bit" to look for a cache, try to step on rocks whenever possible.

[gm100guy]

Here in Ontario we have been trying to work with the parks staff for almost a year and still have no guidelines yet.

 

If you want the history of this problem do a search and you will find all the threads about this topic in the Canada forum.

 

You can also go to the link in my signature and read the home page that was set up for this.

 

I hope cache-tech has more clout and luck then we have been having.

 

 

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage

[+The Daniel Boone Gang]

I think it's reasonable to expect guidelines for caches - the parks department's job is to maintain these places for all of us.

 

We have to be sure however, that the people who will be working on these guidelines are fully cognizant of the positive contributions responsible geocachers (the majority) make:

 

We pay park fees - money that they would otherwise not collect

We pick up trash that we come across - and there's lots of that - "Cache in, Trash Out".

We become champions of conservation and help promote it wherever possible. I know in my case, I never paid much attention to conservation issues until I started caching and recognizing these wonderful places for what they are.

It gets kids interested in the environment.

 

As pointed out by a few people above - there are a lot of unquestioned park users that are much more harmful to the park than geocachers:

 

Campers who strip trees and leave trash,

People with dogs that don't pick up after them when they dump in the middle of a pathway.

People on bikes that fly through the paths, wearing heavily on the terrain and darn near running people down.

 

All of the above seems to be just fine. Geocaching is being questioned because it's new, and it's unfamiliar to the people making the decisions.

 

I would love to take some of these guys out on a Geocache hunt - I'm sure after one or two hunts, they'll love the idea.

 

I guess my only question is - How can us Geocachers help with the discussions? Would letters to MPP's help?

 

[This message was edited by The Daniel Boone Gang on October 15, 2003 at 05:50 PM.]

[boreal jeff & sons]

Ha! I've followed the discussions about what's happening in the States in regards to geocaches in federal parks and was surprised it hadn't happened here.

 

Here in Canada, they'll allow strip logging in Federal Parks but if you step one foot off a hiking path, its the death penalty. So I can understand how a geocache is perceived to have dire consequences for the ecosystem.

 

I think the problem with bureaucrats are their only functions are to spend money and make rules. I don't think the highest intelligent members of society end up in government, just the well connected.

 

You can make all the noise you want but the only time they seem to hear anything is when its coming from one of their choosen special interests groups.

 

Every hour spent Geocaching is added to the end of your life.

[+logger&trail]

I have to agree with Daniel Boone, I for one frequent Algonquin Park and have for many years hiked the trails along the highway 60 corridor. This past summer is the first summer I have done so with geocaching as a goal. I made a total of 4 trips into the park, when normally I would have only made one or two, each time paying my gate fee to do so. On top of that, I removed trash from the park hoping to leave it better than I found it. Is this not enough incentive for the powers that be to see that geocaching can not only be lucrative but create a positive attitude towards our park systems? Rather than banning this sport, it should be embraced and encouraged. I agree that certain guidelines must be established and adhered to in order not to disturb the delicate balance of nature in these areas. Because of this sport I have seen areas of Algonquin I moght not see otherwise.

 

Throughout history we have adapted park systems to embrace new ideas and sports. For example, many local parks have added tennis and basketball courts, wallking trails, baseball diamonds, skateboarding areas etc. All because this is the current "in thing". Why shouldn't geocaching be considered the next "in thing" and be embraced rather than condemned.

 

Just my $0.02 worth

 

Logger

[cachewidow]

It is a lot easier to govern the activities of an identifiable group such as geocachers, than the general public where there is no coherent organization. The parks mandate it being whittled away through budget cuts, etc, and they don't have the resources any longer to manage and patrol our parks. If they can target a group like geocachers to limit their access to the woods, that is one step closer to being able to control who goes where at what time. This would be an easy way to keep a least a few people from the resource. Just look at the overuse and abuse places like Yellowstone get, and closer to home, Jasper and Banff.

Does this make any sense? I'm kinda typing as I think.

cachewidow

 

"Thank you for calling Mom's Travel Service. Guilt Trips our specialty. Where would you like to go today?"

[+Couparangus]

I think Geocaching is beyond being a fad so I suggest the parks people get with the programme and embrace it as a means of generating more traffic in the parks. Banning it or imposing unenforceable rules will just push it underground (no pun intended). Actually, I have some more opinions on all this but I'd better keep 'em to myself!

[Bear & Ducky]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coupar-Angus:

I think Geocaching is beyond being a fad so I suggest the parks people get with the programme and embrace it as a means of generating more traffic in the parks. Banning it or imposing unenforceable rules will just push it underground (no pun intended). Actually, I have some more opinions on all this but I'd better keep 'em to myself!

---

 

Agreed, much like other enforcers of rules.

 

Keith.

 

Bear & Ducky

[+Renegade Knight]

There are two approaches to this problem. The first is as Cache-tech is doing. They may or may not succeded. You can expect heavey restrictions until they see their concerns are either not happening or addressed through the geocaching approval system. You can expect this 'trial period' to last quite some time depending on how effective Cache-tech is in working with them.

 

The second is economic via your representaives. Money talks and if your representatives can see that geocaching generates a visible economic impact to the Nation/Province/City they will get on board and encourage geocaching in such a way that it becomes policy. Policy gets dictated to the parks.

 

Just my two cents since this problem will continue to grow as geocacing gets noticed. I'm working on the second approach in my state. My state though is generally friendly to geocaching.

[+The Blue Quasar]

I have little of value to add here. While one can certainly say that Cache-Tech is making an effort, we also have to appreciate that "Ontario Parks" has jurisdiction over it's parklands. This could easily spread to Conservation Areas etc. if we are not careful. They haven't decided yet, let's let CT do what he/she can. If he/she wants our input he/she will ask. I would hope he/she would so that several individuals views can be expressed.

 

All I ask is that people should be wary of what they say in an open forum. For every negative viewpoint someone brings up will be remembered and it takes a lot of positives to dilute that one comment. And we all know that TEXT is hard to get a feel from.

 

As for the "increasing people visiting/walking off trail/fees/garbage removal etc" comments, more people may be a good thing only if they have a positive impact on the area or they could be adding the additional garbage that another geocacher ends up removing (a zero sum IMO), Fees are only really there to pay for park staff and prevent people from abusing the site, not to generate income for the government. And of course the trail should be observed at all times. Truth is that when any of us go looking for a cache we MUST stay on the trail till the last possible moment. Anyone that thinks that everyone takes a different route should look again next time they cache.

 

There is a time and place for everything.

 

It's called 'college'

[breck_hiker]

Is this the "Bad Apple Syndrome"? Maybe it's just human nature. Are Human beings a disease, the cancer of this planet, are we a plague, and the officials have the cure? (A la Agent-Smith, Matrix style)

 

In the Ottawa region there are a numbers of big hiking clubs. One of those clubs used to go bushwhacking and still do even today BTW! Let me tell you, when bushwhacking with a group of up to 40-50 hikers at a time it has a big impact on nature. This hiking clubs made their proprietary non-official trail very accessible for everyone to see, with yellow paint marking on trees. I bet that most so-called friendly hikers don't even realize that every time they are going on thier nature outing they are damaging the fragile nature.

 

Now thanks to the big hiking clubs I can enjoy these entire new non-official trails... Happy caching !

 

http://ocollines.com/

 

 

.

 

[This message was edited by Breck Hiker on October 22, 2003 at 10:14 AM.]