What Terrain Should I Use?

[+OldGregg32]

I'm considering placing a geocache on this small island in the Haw River, but I haven't found any difficult terrain caches, so I was wondering what terrain rating I should give it. I want to put it next to the biggest tree on top of the island, and you have to climb from log to log to get up there, because it's to high to reach from the sand. Most of the time, you also have to walk

through ankle deep water to get on the island.

[+Max and 99]

2 minutes ago, OldGregg32 said:

I'm considering placing a geocache on this small island in the Haw River, but I haven't found any difficult terrain caches, so I was wondering what terrain rating I should give it. I want to put it next to the biggest tree on top of the island, and you have to climb from log to log to get up there, because it's to high to reach from the sand. Most of the time, you also have to walk

through ankle deep water to get on the island.

This might be helpful:

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.page&inc=1&id=82#:~:text=Every geocache has a difficulty,star terrain in Amsterdam%2C Holland.

[+lee737]

How far is the walk overall? Ankle deep water wouldn't adjust things much, on its own maybe T2, if its after a 10mi walk, then maybe more...

[+OldGregg32]

It's only about a .4 mile walk from the parking lot, but the thing that I thought might give it a higher rating, is that you have to climb up the mound of logs to get to it. It also may not be possible to get on the island if it has just rained, because the water channel you have to cross fills up very fast. Unfortunately, I just took a measurement, and this spot is only 200ft from another cache, so I probably can't put it there anyway😕.

[+Max and 99]

1 minute ago, OldGregg32 said:

It's only about a .4 mile walk from the parking lot, but the thing that I thought might give it a higher rating, is that you have to climb up the mound of logs to get to it. It also may not be possible to get on the island if it has just rained, because the water channel you have to cross fills up very fast. Unfortunately, I just took a measurement, and this spot is only 200ft from another cache, so I probably can't put it there anyway😕.

Oh no!

[+OldGregg32]

btw, this is at the Saxapahaw Island Park in NC. 

[+barefootjeff]

From the look of that pile of deadwood in your photos, I suspect the location regularly goes underwater when the stream floods (I've been seeing a lot of scenes like that around here recently), so maybe it's just as well it didn't work out. Back to your original question, based on your description of the access to GZ, I'd likely rate it T2.5 with the Wading Required attribute, but different regions have different interpretations of terrain rating so my advice would be to try to find a few higher terrain caches first to get a feeling for them. Something I often do when trying to rate a new cache is look at the ones I've found that are rated half a star either side of where I'm thinking of putting it, just to confirm that the lower rated ones are generally easier than my new one and that the higher rated ones are generally harder.

[+Goldenwattle]

You will need to tie the cache well to that tree, or it will be washed away with high water. The cache needs to be water proof too. The placing reminds me of a local cache. It got washed away several times. That tree does not look very stable either, and it might be undermined with the next high, fast flow of water.

I would say at least a 3T, as the water could get deep at times, and be very cold. Actually at those times, 3T mightn't be enough.

[+OldGregg32]

I really appreciate everyone's advice, even though this cache didn't work out. I might do some research to try to find another stop similar to this that isn't close to another cache, but I want to attempt some more difficult caches before I try and place one like this. Thanks for all the help!😊

[+JL_HSTRE]

If wading is expected year-round this should be T4.

 

It's ankle-deep right now, but how normal are current water levels?

 

I would be quite displeased to go looking for a T2 or 2.5 cache only to find out I need to wade to an island for it!

[+dprovan]

5 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

I would be quite displeased to go looking for a T2 or 2.5 cache only to find out I need to wade to an island for it!

And, on the other hand, I'd be quite pleased to be heading for a T4 that required wading only to find the creek dry when I got there.

[+Harry Dolphin]

2 hours ago, dprovan said:

And, on the other hand, I'd be quite pleased to be heading for a T4 that required wading only to find the creek dry when I got there.

 

I went for a 5 star on an island in a reservoir.  They had lowered the water enough that I could walk to the island, only getting the soles of my shoes muddy!

[+barefootjeff]

9 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

If wading is expected year-round this should be T4.

 

It's ankle-deep right now, but how normal are current water levels?

 

I would be quite displeased to go looking for a T2 or 2.5 cache only to find out I need to wade to an island for it!

 

Perhaps its a regional thing, but I'd be displeased if I was expecting a good T4 workout that instead turned out to be just a wade across a shallow stream. A few weeks ago I did a "wading required" cache that was a 1km trail hike down a 50 metre descent to the stream, then off-track for about 50 metres, a scamble up around the side of the first waterfall, a thigh-deep wade across the pool at the base of the second falls and finally a steep rock-scramble up the other side to the cache. It was, I thought, appropriately rated at T3.5 and most of that was for the off-track scrambling and climbing.

 

For what it's worth, the Help Centre says this for T4: "Very strenuous movement that may include significant distance, overgrowth, swimming, or elevation changes."

[+ChriBli]

There was another thread on the subject of changing the T-rating when the conditions changed. Although I think it would be crazy to vary the rating with the season for many reasons, others had a different opinion. But if the rating is to be kept unchanged, I would rather have it reflect worst case (within reason, of course, not accommodating for the odd tropical hurricane).

[+lee737]

We did a T3.5 cache this week, to be fair it was a correct rating, but it did have the 'wading' attribute. We packed crocs/thongs and a towel, then jumped the little creek in one stride....

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by lee737

[+dprovan]

29 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Perhaps its a regional thing, but I'd be displeased if I was expecting a good T4 workout that instead turned out to be just a wade across a shallow stream.

OK, I concede your point of view, but even in your shoes -- or waders -- I'd be forgiving if I could see that the the terrain rating was typically valid even if I had an easier time of it.

 

I do agree there's a regional element to this, so I'm perfectly happy to accept whatever rating the local CO has decided the cache warrants.

[+ChriBli]

30 minutes ago, lee737 said:

We did a T3.5 cache this week, to be fair it was a correct rating, but it did have the 'wading' attribute. We packed crocs/thongs and a towel, then jumped the little creek in one stride....

Rather that then the other way around...

[+JL_HSTRE]

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Perhaps its a regional thing, but I'd be displeased if I was expecting a good T4 workout that instead turned out to be just a wade across a shallow stream. A few weeks ago I did a "wading required" cache that was a 1km trail hike down a 50 metre descent to the stream, then off-track for about 50 metres, a scamble up around the side of the first waterfall, a thigh-deep wade across the pool at the base of the second falls and finally a steep rock-scramble up the other side to the cache. It was, I thought, appropriately rated at T3.5 and most of that was for the off-track scrambling and climbing.

 

For what it's worth, the Help Centre says this for T4: "Very strenuous movement that may include significant distance, overgrowth, swimming, or elevation changes."

 

Looking around I can't find a current Terrain list or test that specifically gives wading as a choice. Looking at the present D/T suggestions in the official Guidelines I revise my previous comment and agree T3 would be appropriate if wading is expected, but definitely not less than that for a year-round water feature like a river.

 

For the cache you describe a "steep rock-scramble" sounds to me like climbing requiring using your hands, which is T4.

 

I think the Terrain rating for wading depends not only on the width and depth of the water, but also the local area. In would be far more willing to wade a mountain stream in Virginia than a blackwater stream of the same size here in Florida, wherein every body of water should be assumed to have alligators and the tannic waters have negligible visibility. I assume Jeff lives in a part of Australia where he's not in danger of being eaten by a crocodile.

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

For the cache you describe a "steep rock-scramble" sounds to me like climbing requiring using your hands, which is T4.

 

Where does it say that? I can't find any mention of using hands in the Help Centre's descriptions of terrain ratings.

 

I have a dysfunctional sense of balance due to a chronic inner ear condition, so I often use my hands to steady myself on all manner of terrain (except maybe a T1). On the cache in question, I used my hands a lot to steady myself, particularly as the rocks were slippery in places after all the recent rain, but not to pull myself up. In the photo below, it was a wade across the pool at the left, up behind the big rock and along the ledge, then a fairly easy scramble up the slope behind the rocks to the cache. The horizontal log behind the ledge provided a good hand-hold but wasn't really necessary.

 

 

That bit of the journey to GZ, along with getting past the first falls, I'd consider T3, with the rest of the hike bumping it up to 3.5.

Edited April 23, 2022 by barefootjeff

[+JL_HSTRE]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

I can't find any mention of using hands in the Help Centre's descriptions of terrain ratings.

 

Clayjar's longtime D/T ratings aid, which has been linked to by Groundspeak, will give you T4 for selecting this option:

 

Severe elevation changes.

The only way up the slope is to use your hands. Going down may require the use of your backside.

 

Here in mostly flat Florida, T4 is used for most tree climbs.

[+barefootjeff]

36 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Clayjar's longtime D/T ratings aid, which has been linked to by Groundspeak, will give you T4 for selecting this option:

 

Severe elevation changes.

The only way up the slope is to use your hands. Going down may require the use of your backside.

 

I never had much joy trying to use the Clayjar system as it didn't seem a good fit for the sort of terrain we have here.

 

There seems to be too much emphasis on bicycles but even the quite mild slopes here tend to have lots of steps that you wouldn't be able to ride a bike up. How would you rate this?

 

 

Can't ride a bike across it, using one hand, but if that was the toughest bit and the cache was under that small tree just to the right of my hand, I'd rate it a 2.

[+barefootjeff]

55 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Here in mostly flat Florida, T4 is used for most tree climbs.

 

Most of the T4s locally, including my own, get that rating from a combination of distance, undergrowth and rock scrambling needed, rather than just straight-out steepness. On one of mine (GC6JMDK), the steepest bit is the 130 metre stepped climb up the Great North Walk from Wondabyne railway station to the top of the ridge, but the toughest part, where it gets its T4 rating, is the cross-country rock scramble through thick scrub along the ridge-line from where you leave the trail to the cache.