Premium vs Free

[Cachenoob22]

Hey everyone just started this past Saturday and I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if there are premium geocaches that are completely hidden on they map or are they all grayed out? I'm not seeing very many grayed out so I was curious if any are completely hidden.

[+Max and 99]

41 minutes ago, Cachenoob22 said:

Hey everyone just started this past Saturday and I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if there are premium geocaches that are completely hidden on they map or are they all grayed out? I'm not seeing very many grayed out so I was curious if any are completely hidden.

Help center:

https://payments.geocaching.com/?renew=true

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=102&pgid=764

 

 

[+Max and 99]

41 minutes ago, Cachenoob22 said:

Hey everyone just started this past Saturday and I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if there are premium geocaches that are completely hidden on they map or are they all grayed out? I'm not seeing very many grayed out so I was curious if any are completely hidden.

I assume you are referring to the app? There are more limitations on the app than the website. I hope those two links will help.

[Cachenoob22]

They are helpful but what I was trying to find out is if any premium caches are invisible in the app without even showing grayed out. But I didn't realize the app isn't as good as the website that's a little annoying.   Thank you for the response though. The links did provide additional information.

[+kunarion]

13 hours ago, Cachenoob22 said:

But I didn't realize the app isn't as good as the website that's a little annoying.

 

It's actually a good thing. The Official App doesn't even require email verification, so there's truly no obligation to attempt an easy cache or two, and someone may find those without even knowing what they're doing.  When you're ready for the next level, you may not even be using "The App".  You might borrow or buy a handheld GPS instead, or use a different App entirely, which displays even "Advanced" caches (gray map dots in the Official App for Basic members), but with other restrictions.  Or you may cache with family or friends who have a GPS, or you might just use maps and info to find caches, many cachers do.

 

Regardless, a Basic member doesn't have direct access to Premium Cache info, of course.  If everything was conveniently available for free, there would be few paid members. 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by kunarion

[+GeoElmo6000]

11 hours ago, Cachenoob22 said:

They are helpful but what I was trying to find out is if any premium caches are invisible in the app without even showing grayed out. But I didn't realize the app isn't as good as the website that's a little annoying.   Thank you for the response though. The links did provide additional information.

 

While I love geocaching and do support Geocaching HQ with premium membership, that's one decision of theirs that I disagree with.  Basic members can access all non-premium caches through the website but not the app?  Why? 

 

On the app, all caches you can't access should be grayed out.  The only ones you can access are traditional caches with a difficulty of 2 or less and a terrain of 2 or less, plus events.  Through the website you will be able to access all non-premium caches.  You can plug the coordinates into a GPS receiver or an app that lets you input coordinates.  Google Maps may work, I'm not sure though.

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

While I love geocaching and do support Geocaching HQ with premium membership, that's one decision of theirs that I disagree with.  Basic members can access all non-premium caches through the website but not the app?  Why?

 

I think it's to encourage people who use The App to help pay for it.  That's fair.  "Apps" are not cheap, why not pay for something one enjoys, when many people who pay for PM are Geocaching just fine without "an App" -- people who would prefer IT work be directed at NOT an App.  And show me popular game Apps that don't have "coins" or "gems" to buy (sure, everyone claims they never pay anything).  Game Apps have the highest subscription, with no upper limit to what you could pay.  Except for Geocaching.

 

Watch out when using Google Maps.  Although the pin is usually placed at GZ, if Google Maps can stick to streets, it will.  Even if a cache is not in the street.  Other than that, there are free "GPS Apps".  But don't focus on "Apps".  If one can afford a $1000 phone every couple of years, one can save up for a $200 handheld GPS.  There's an entire web site of cache info to load on it for free.

 

 

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

While I love geocaching and do support Geocaching HQ with premium membership, that's one decision of theirs that I disagree with. 

Basic members can access all non-premium caches through the website but not the app?  Why? 

 

Groundspeak/geocaching.com has promised to keep the hobby "free" since it was created. 

 An actual "geocaching app" didn't come out for some time, the "Intro" app didn't come out until 2013  (though the other 2/3rds successfully used Trimble on her blackberry in '05).  Having to buy a GPSr just to play was an investment in the hobby. 

A free app is no investment in the hobby...

Cachers starting well-after apps were created don't think about that I guess.    

Basic members loading caches from the website takes a bit of work.  Not much, but not as easy as loading an app and go...

When you log into the website, HQ has record of it (when you "last visited").  Using the app, you never have to log into the website again.

I've loaded caches manually, often singly, to a GPSr since starting.   I appreciate the fact that "the app" doesn't replace the website.

If it wasn't for the other 2/3rds notifications (for FTF) we could have been basic members since 2004.

We know people that have never been a PM, but have numerous trackables/caches out.  They contribute to the hobby too... 

 

[+GeoElmo6000]

18 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Groundspeak/geocaching.com has promised to keep the hobby "free" since it was created. 

 An actual "geocaching app" didn't come out for some time, the "Intro" app didn't come out until 2013  (though the other 2/3rds successfully used Trimble on her blackberry in '05).  Having to buy a GPSr just to play was an investment in the hobby. 

A free app is no investment in the hobby...

Cachers starting well-after apps were created don't think about that I guess.    

Basic members loading caches from the website takes a bit of work.  Not much, but not as easy as loading an app and go...

When you log into the website, HQ has record of it (when you "last visited").  Using the app, you never have to log into the website again.

I've loaded caches manually, often singly, to a GPSr since starting.   I appreciate the fact that "the app" doesn't replace the website.

If it wasn't for the other 2/3rds notifications (for FTF) we could have been basic members since 2004.

We know people that have never been a PM, but have numerous trackables/caches out.  They contribute to the hobby too... 

 

 

I'm not sure what this has to do with the fact that basic members are allowed to see all non-premium caches on the website, but not the app.  If you're going to offer basic members the ability to see certain caches, then be consistent across platforms.

 

There's a middle level missing from the app, which would be the user being able to see all non-premium caches without being a premium member.  The same service they get when using the website.  So maybe offer a way to unlock that ability using an in-app purchase or something.

 

On a side note:

I started off using a GPS receiver in 2011 that I found at Best Buy on clearance for $40, a Garmin eTrex H.  I didn't know anything about geocaching, but I wanted to try it, and if that GPS receiver was anywhere above $40, I probably wouldn't have bought it, and I wouldn't have started geocaching then.  GPS receivers are big investment and most people aren't just buying GPS receivers these days.  Apps works great and phones don't require cell service for GPS usage, so you can head off into the woods and mountains with your phone (that most people already have) instead of investing $100+ on a device with limited use.

 

I know I'll get lots of Laugh emoji votes because I'm defending smartphone users and the use of apps in the geocaching forums, but that's fine. 

[+kunarion]

19 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

There's a middle level missing from the app, which would be the user being able to see all non-premium caches without being a premium member.  The same service they get when using the website.  So maybe offer a way to unlock that ability using an in-app purchase or something.

 

There kind of is.  There are 3rd-party Geocaching Apps from "Authorized Developers", and the Apps tend to be an inexpensive one-time purchase (note there are still restrictions on Basic members in this case).  Lately, there also is a subscription component to those Apps anyway.  "App" development and support is expensive, but many Geocachers would never know if all the Apps went away, because they don't use Apps although a Premium Membership payment goes toward working on Apps.  If one loves their App, pay the subscription.  I bought a bunch of cool Geocaching Apps over the years, and most are gone now.  They had no continuous source of income.

 

The "Free App" deal is one thing TPTB though through very well.  I appreciate how it's set up so that users might tend to pay PM for the convenience.  It's not a great expense.  People can save up for it.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by kunarion

[+kunarion]

28 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with the fact that basic members are allowed to see all non-premium caches on the website, but not the app.  If you're going to offer basic members the ability to see certain caches, then be consistent across platforms.

 

It's still free on the website (but not PM caches).  Open the web site, on a phone or whatever, there are the caches, assuming one has verified their email address to fully sign up.  It's fine to suggest that if a business provides something for free, then other stuff also must be free.  Suggest it. 

[+Isonzo Karst]

4 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

So maybe offer a way to unlock that ability using an in-app purchase or something.

Sure, buy Premium Membership, and the "the app" will load everything.  A while back, user could still buy a $10 3 month PM through the app. I don't know if they still can.  But i bet so, because I see so many with very few finds have gone Premium their first weekend of caching.  Easier to try $10 for 3 months than $30 for a year.

[+GeoElmo6000]

My complaint is about the inconsistency between what a basic member can see using the app vs. using the website.  I still disagree with it and the responses haven't helped, sorry.  

 

21 hours ago, kunarion said:

There kind of is.  There are 3rd-party Geocaching Apps from "Authorized Developers", and the Apps tend to be an inexpensive one-time purchase (note there are still restrictions on Basic members in this case).

 

I use Cachly, which is one of those authorized 3rd party apps.  Since I've been a premium member longer than I've been an app user, I'm not 100% on this, but I believe that the results you see in Cachly are the same as what you'd see using the free geocaching app.

 

21 hours ago, kunarion said:

The "Free App" deal is one thing TPTB though through very well.  I appreciate how it's set up so that users might tend to pay PM for the convenience.  It's not a great expense.  People can save up for it.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Besides the obvious intent of trying to get people to sign up for premium membership, I don't know why Groundspeak would limit what people see in the app vs. the website.  And like I said earlier, at least introduce something that lets people unlock all the basic member caches without having to get premium membership.  

21 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

It's still free on the website (but not PM caches).  Open the web site, on a phone or whatever, there are the caches, assuming one has verified their email address to fully sign up.  It's fine to suggest that if a business provides something for free, then other stuff also must be free.  Suggest it. 

 

Will do.

 

17 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

I see so many with very few finds have gone Premium their first weekend of caching.

 

I see this as upselling, which doesn't sit well with me.  (Upselling is a sales technique used to get a customer to spend more by buying an upgraded or premium version of what's being purchased.)  I think this is why this issue bothers me.  I understand businesses need to earn money, and I support Groundspeak with my premium membership (and last year my membership almost cost me $1 per cache I found!).

[+niraD]

15 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Besides the obvious intent of trying to get people to sign up for premium membership, I don't know why Groundspeak would limit what people see in the app vs. the website.

If the target audience of the app (at least, with only basic membership) is complete newbies who have no idea what geocaching is or can be, then I think it makes sense for the app's default behavior to limit the user to basic caches that aren't very hard or very difficult to access.

 

Where I think it falls down is that this is the only way the app operates with basic membership. If a basic member sees a more advanced (but not PMO) listing on the web site, then it should be possible to view that listing in the app. Or if a basic member is being introduced to geocaching by an experienced geocacher, and the experienced geocacher gives the basic member the GC code of a fun cache, then the basic member should be able to view it in the app.

[+kunarion]

49 minutes ago, niraD said:

If the target audience of the app (at least, with only basic membership) is complete newbies who have no idea what geocaching is or can be, then I think it makes sense for the app's default behavior to limit the user to basic caches that aren't very hard or very difficult to access.

 

Yes.  Also a very important point is, The App poses no obligation at all to go try it out and hunt a Geocache.  They don't need a real email address, there's not any particular "sign up".  That's likely why "Advanced" caches are in gray, not available.  They are not good for an for absolute novice.

 

49 minutes ago, niraD said:

Where I think it falls down is that this is the only way the app operates with basic membership. If a basic member sees a more advanced (but not PMO) listing on the web site, then it should be possible to view that listing in the app. Or if a basic member is being introduced to geocaching by an experienced geocacher, and the experienced geocacher gives the basic member the GC code of a fun cache, then the basic member should be able to view it in the app.

 

There used to be a one-month Premium Membership offered directly in The App.  Is that gone?
 

Remember, the first Official App was a one-time payment of $9, and it opened all caches to be found.  I'm guessing that version is gone precisely because it was a money-losing proposition.  Offering that same thing for free?  Not even the $9?  It sounds great, but it doesn't sound like a business model.    I actually would prefer someone who was previously banned and locked from Geocaching to not be able to go anonymously hunt caches again because of a conveniently open and free Official App that PMs pay for.  YMMV.  

 

3rd party Apps often have a free demo mode, and tend to be $5 or so for the full version.  Type a GC code and the cache is shown, "Advanced" or not.  Caches are displayed differently from The Official App, in that they have no gray "Advanced" caches.  Players see all caches except PMO, and can hunt a limited number per day (3, I think).  There would need to be a major change to the Official App, to make it work like that, instead of how it works now, and explaining how The Free Stuff works would then be even more complicated, depending on which "mode" The App is in.  Now we're back to why not fix the web site first, and fiddle with "free" Apps later. 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by kunarion

[Darwin473]

On 3/8/2022 at 9:28 AM, Cachenoob22 said:

...if there are premium geocaches that are completely hidden on they map or are they all grayed out?

 

On the official app:

• Easy caches are green (Traditional 2/2 or less)
• "Advanced" caches are shown, but greyed out with a "get premium" prompt (Multi, Challenge, Letterbox, Traditionals over 2/2, etc)
• Premium Member Only caches do not show up at all - no icon on map

On the website:

• Easy caches are green
• Advanced caches are green or other colors (such as orange for Multi)
• Premium Member Only caches do not show up at all - no icon on map, no access to the page details if you know the GC code

[+thebruce0]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:14 AM, niraD said:

Where I think it falls down is that this is the only way the app operates with basic membership.

 

Right, I think a middle ground might be advancing enough somehow  in the app to open up or unlock the advanced caches - and also requiring email verification. Basically, "it looks like you really love finding geocaches! if you make your account official and verify your email address, you'll be able to access even the more advanced geocaches while using your mobile device!"  Or something like that.  A way to 'unlock' full access in the app -- which, of course, is already available to them, just via website, not in the mobile app.

(and to note, they can also use the mobile browser to access the website and see everything for Basic membership - the limitation is purely in-app)