Help, please: Effective Communication with Reviewer(s)

[401Photos]

A lighthearted yet sincere request for your help communicating with reviewers.

 

BOTTOM LINE:
Here's what's got my goat: Submission requirements applied inconsistently. More specifically, the requirements by one manager compared to the other managers, several times over many months and in multiple categories.

BACKGROUND:
Today,  two of my three "Gazebo" submissions were declined because the "right" photo is not the gallery's main image. The official requirement is one photo, the request is for a second from inside, and, finally, an ask for non-mandatory additional photos. My prior 15 gazebo galleries average more than seven photos. Some near, some far, some up close details. Readers can clearly see these are gazebos and, along with the written information, would be able locate and identify them. Of that running total, 13 feature [GASP!] the aesthetically interesting underside of the gazebo as the main image.

 

COORDINATION REQUEST:

• First, I know, I know: It's *just* a game. I really enjoy it.
• These specific rejections are frustrating because it is *just* a game and it's consistently happened several times over many months in multiple categories.
• If I have made a mistake or left something out, I'm always grateful for any guidance and will gladly amend my submission.
• In cases where I've met the obligations as written and then made additional/personal/artistic decisions, I have respectfully sent appeals directly to the denying manager -- Mostly to no avail, hence this community outreach.
• Forum etiquette discourages naming those with whom we have any grievance, but I could use some help with this specific person's decision making process over time. Can we ask them to lighten up, perhaps?

And, yes, before you write it, I could change the main picture in this case. But this has gone on long enough. I'm a grown-a** man and only want the autonomy and -- after nearly 1200 approved submissions with hundreds more in queue -- expect that I can be trusted to contribute good quality Waymarks without nitpicking...or the power trip.


---j

Edited February 1, 2022 by 401Photos

[+Alfouine]

Waouh, this discussion is interesting, i declined your waymark and i will explain why.

You published a waymark in the gazebo category and you are right, the requirement is only one photo that means a photo of the entire gazebo.

Add more photo is always welcome and you used to publish really nice photos, but you can add hundred of photos, the category is still about gazebo and we need to see the entire gazebo as the default photo.

Why ? easy, when you see the category page, you have a list of waymark with only one photo and this photo must show what the category is about, a clock for clock category, a sign for a sign category, a bell for bell category and a gazebo for gazebo category and not a photo of a close-up detail of the gazebo.

It's not the first time we have a problem with your default photo, you want to play the game but with your own rule.

Publish a default photo showing what the category is about does not need to be a requirement, it's just obvious.

I just asked you to change the default photo, you change the photo and i approve your waymark, it's not a big deal !!!!

You are right it's just a game... and i am really relax  thank you to take care about me

[401Photos]

You're right: In some categories, the default photo expectation is explicitly listed. If the gazebo category managers feel it's necessary to specify a default photo, that could be easily changed with amended instructions. We've seen that many times.
 

On 2/1/2022 at 5:46 PM, Alfouine said:

when you see the category page, you have a list of waymark with only one photo and this photo must show what the category is about,

When we look at category page, many elements make the category apparent: the category name, unique but consistently formatted Waymark titles, the short descriptions, and corresponding photos. No two are identical, yet visitors see there is variation and still identify what is shown as belonging to a group.

 

On 2/1/2022 at 5:46 PM, Alfouine said:

the requirement is only one photo that means a photo of the entire gazebo

You may prefer the external shot, but, in this case, the written instructions do not say what the default photo must be. A photo of the railing detail or the floor isn't the default image -- those would certainly make your case since the subject would be ambiguous. The required external view photos are in the gallery, too.

 

On 2/1/2022 at 5:46 PM, Alfouine said:

you want to play the game but with your own rule.

I am not making up rules. The rules are the written instructions. My submissions follow expectations as written. My gallery photos clearly show a gazebo. The decision as to what image to feature is intentional -- I'd very much like people to be curious and explore the gallery.
 

On 2/1/2022 at 5:46 PM, Alfouine said:

you change the photo and i approve your waymark

Thank you for the ultimatum statement -- It perfectly illustrates the final point in my original post.
 
All my other Waymarks in this, and as you brought up, the Town Clocks category, have been approved, without issue, by other managers. I am asking the community to help us because your out-of-the-ordinary treatment of me is unique and on-going.
 
No matter the category, is it unreasonable to make us guess which particular manager will review our submissions and genuflect to their personal regulations? Just as submissions are obligated to adhere to the written instructions, managers have an obligation to be consistent among each other in any particular category. (And I'd say for the most part, they are.) Do the gazebo category managers want to update the instructions to specify a default photo as you'd like?

[+PISA-caching]

I partly agree with both of you. If the category description says "A clear photograph showing the entire gazebo is required." and all the other photos are not required, I would draw the conclusion that the only required photo should also be the default photo. But, as long as the category description doesn't explicitly require a specific view for the default photo, the officers have to deal with WM with other default photos. I, personally, have had WM in other categories declined, because they had the wrong default photo. And I always changed that and resubmitted, without reading the precise requirements of the category. Nevertheless, like 401Photos said: The photo requirements should slightly be edited to "A clear photograph showing the entire gazebo is required (default photo)." and everyone should be happy.

[+Alfouine]

7 hours ago, 401Photos said:

All my other Waymarks in this, and as you brought up, the Town Clocks category, have been approved, without issue, by other managers. I am asking the community to help us because your out-of-the-ordinary treatment of me is unique and on-going.

 

An officer (not me) asked you to add a close-up photo of the clock and you decline, so he called for vote. But what you do not know is that i missed the vote, if i did not, your waymark would have been declined. I made a mistake and i apologize to the officer. So do not be so confident, you were just lucky.

 

7 hours ago, 401Photos said:

I am not making up rules. The rules are the written instructions. My submissions follow expectations as written. My gallery photos clearly show a gazebo. The decision as to what image to feature is intentional -- I'd very much like people to be curious and explore the gallery.
All my other Waymarks in this, and as you brought up, the Town Clocks category, have been approved, without issue, by other managers. I am asking the community to help us because your out-of-the-ordinary treatment of me is unique and on-going.
No matter the category, is it unreasonable to make us guess which particular manager will review our submissions and genuflect to their personal regulations? Just as submissions are obligated to adhere to the written instructions, managers have an obligation to be consistent among each other in any particular category. (And I'd say for the most part, they are.)

 

This is really funny, in the category description of Town clocks category, you have two photos required in this order :

Close-up picture of clock
Picture of building or freestanding mounting

Could you explain to the community why you did not want to add a close-up photo of the clock as default ? "The rules are the written instructions" this is your words !!!

Are you sure you would add a default photo of the entire gazebo if it was required ?

 

I have few basic requirement, publish a default photo showing what the category is about, add a long description,add a sentence describing the waymark in accordance with the category, add an english description. These requirements are logical and obvious. I do not validate any waymark not respecting these rules.

Waymarking need consistency and a minimum of quality

 

The big mistake is to imagine that we can modify description easily, a lot of leaders are inactive or refuse to do it but i have tried, that needs time

Change a default photo is easy but that needs a different state of mind.

[+Max and 99]

47 minutes ago, Alfouine said:

This is really funny, in the category description of Town clocks category, you have two photos required in this order :

I disagree. The instructions say please include the following, it does not state that the default photo must be the close-up.

[+Alfouine]

3 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I disagree. The instructions say please include the following, it does not state that the default photo must be the close-up.

OK i do not share your point of view, but it was not only a problem of default photo, this waymarker did not want to add a close-up photo, according to him his photo was close enough and he did not want to add one closer, you can check the vote comment, you have to join the group again 

Here is the waymark

There is tons of photos but no close-up photo as required, so this guy is complaining about me but he's the first one to not respect requirement, it's not very serious...

[+Benchmark Blasterz]

14 hours ago, 401Photos said:

Thank you for the ultimatum statement -- It perfectly illustrates the final point in my original post.
 
All my other Waymarks in this, and as you brought up, the Town Clocks category, have been approved, without issue, by other managers. I am asking the community to help us because your out-of-the-ordinary treatment of me is unique and on-going.
 
No matter the category, is it unreasonable to make us guess which particular manager will review our submissions and genuflect to their personal regulations? Just as submissions are obligated to adhere to the written instructions, managers have an obligation to be consistent among each other in any particular category. (And I'd say for the most part, they are.) Do the gazebo category managers want to update the instructions to specify a default photo as you'd like?

 

I'm going to share my interactions with Alfouine both as a waymarker submitting to categories he reviews in and as a fellow officer in categories we manage.

 

I bolded the statements in your post that in my opinion and from my experience working with him, are off the mark. What you see as an "ultimatum statement" I see as a European being direct, as they can be, says the American from the South.      If you make the fix, you'll get the approval - This is all he was saying to you. 

 

What I see from his declines of MY waymarks is that they are because I missed something - a naming convention mistake, or a wrong default photo are the most common reasons. I fix my WM name and the order of photos and - my waymark is approved quickly with a thank you. 

 

I see THE EXACT SAME PATTERN in his declines of OTHER people's waymarks - they missed a requirement, they defaulted the wrong photo, they messed up the name, etc - he declines and tells then how to fix it. To my mind this shows that he is consistent across the community, not personally targeting you or reviewing you any differently than anybody else.

 

my 2 cents - worth every penny  

[+Bear and Ragged]

Waymark submitted.

Wrong default picture.

 

New to Waymarking, photo is there - but not default - I will change it, accept the Waymark and leave a comment "Default photo should be... /I've changed it for you.

 

Long time Waymarker, new to category, I will do as above.

 

Long time Waymarker, already submitted 'several' Waymarks to the category it will be declined and correct default photo asked to be submitted.

 

Incorrect title, decline, and comment the 'correct' title.

[401Photos]

Thanks for the responses, friends. It looks like we’re saying the same thing — if/when we make a mistake and the reviewer lets us know what is wrong, we make adjustments.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to discuss this, and, hopefully, make things more efficient. Apologies in advance for such a long post -- It seems better to get it all out in one fell swoop so we can find resolution and move forward.

To clarify using Benchmark Blasterz reply (thank you!) regarding consistency, I didn’t say Monsieur Alfouine was personally targeting me. Rather, this has been my experience: Based on approvals by other managers, my submissions met criteria and only his reviews (not in all categories, of course) resulted in declines and more work -- for both him and me. What happens when you submit a Waymark — in good faith, that definitely fits a category, and follows the guidelines — but it gets declined? Have you ever appealed to the officer? That main point started with ambiguity in Town Clock category —

How close is a close-up? I think we can agree that there’s got to be an obvious difference between the shot of the whole structure (ie. building or clock tower) and the close up picture of the clock. And the close up is framed in a way that excludes most of the surroundings.

But how close is a close-up? The instructions do not specify — “the clock face must take up 75 percent of the width of your photo”; “the crop must be to the edge of the clock face.” We can presume the category creators' intent was to show a close enough view so that most folks would understand that the clock is the main subject and can see it clearly. A look at the Waymarks list and we’ll see that, with variety, most follow the format and are generally similar.

 

In this case: Along with an extensive write-up and 12 other pictures, the image I submitted as a close up is framed to show that the subject is a specific clock. In looking at other peoples' examples, with a good faith effort to meet category requirements, and my personal preference, that’s how I chose to crop it. So, I politely appealed. Our genial exchange, after Alfouine had, for my second Waymark in a week, declined another Town Clock for the same reason:

Decline Notice:
“Need a close-up photo as default one You can zoom and cut an existing one Thank you, Alfouine”

In response, I wrote:
“Dear Alfouine: Thanks for all the work you do as a manager of multiple categories! Based on my extensive descriptions and broad range of high quality images in the photo galleries for this and the rest of my 800+ Waymarks, can you please trust my judgement for submitting what I feel is a close up shot to illustrate the Waymark? (To be fair, other peoples' WMs represent clocks in similar general proportion to mine within their key photographs.)
-- Jason"

 

Alfouine:
“We ask a close-up photo for each submission, i can understand your feeling, but i have to validate the same way for each submission otherwise i will receive messages from waymarkers to complain about different treatment. So please add a close-up photo as default, you can do what you want with others photos. And next time try to always take a close-up photo corresponding to the category. Thank you, Alfouine”

 

Here’s a side-by-side comparison of my declined close up with one of Alfouine's that he had posted just a few days earlier:

Instead of concentrating on creating more Waymarks at that time, I did a little side project and compared all of Alfouine’s Town Clock close-ups with this one. If you want, I can share the others, too. On that day, I had about 30 and he had 14 posted in total…and though a couple of his close ups showed clocks appearing ever so slightly larger in frame, 2 were about the same size and 9 were definitely smaller than mine. If it was good enough for his, why not mine?

Alfouine - You are an enthusiastic, engaged, dedicated and productive Waymarker who adds to the game's success. I appreciate your work, too. You obviously know who I am, have seen the work I do, and approve my Waymarks in multiple categories. So, weather it is clocks or gazebos or anything else, can we agree that I submit in good faith and that we want categories to continue growing in a way that is efficient and fun for all?

Edited February 6, 2022 by 401Photos

[+ScroogieII]

I'm sorry, Thierry, but, if you'll recall the last category you overhauled, I think part of the discussion we engaged in there included the necessity of requiring that which is deemed by the category writer to be an absolute necessity, scrupulously avoiding such terms as "please include:", as is done in the Town Clocks category, for example.

 

If requirements aren't stated as REQUIREMENTS, as opposed to requests or suggestions, the reviewer does not have the right to decline a Waymark that falls short of the suggestions or requests.

 

I understand that you're not the category leader and probably don't have editing privileges, but, under the circumstances, you, just as does the submitter, must follow the rules, AND, if the rules are actually just simple requests, your hands are tied.

Hence REQUIREMENTS!!!

 

I manage several legacy categories which have precious few real requirements and, as such, must grit my teeth and click the APPROVE button many times each week when less than splendid Waymarks fall my way. I'm not really interested in trying to achieve leadership and overhaul said categories, so I continue to add mundane Waymarks to the pile.

Keith

Edited February 8, 2022 by ScroogieII

[+ScroogieII]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:55 AM, PISA-caching said:

The photo requirements should slightly be edited to "A clear photograph showing the entire gazebo is required (default photo)." and everyone should be happy.

 

Once again, the voice of reason. Why doesn't everyone just listen to Andreas and make us all happy?!?!?! 

Keith

[+Alfouine]

As i am now the leader of Gazebos category, i have modified the description

It was written "A clear photograph showing the entire gazebo is required" and now "A clear photograph showing the entire gazebo is required as default"

 

So no more problem now, we all agree