Puzzle cache help from CO

[+Jones_cubed]

Puzzle cache CO's - 

How do you feel about people messaging you for hints/help with solving a puzzle?

[+niraD]

11 minutes ago, Jones_cubed said:

How do you feel about people messaging you for hints/help with solving a puzzle?

My first question when someone asks for a hint is, "What have you tried so far?" I want to know where you're stuck, to figure out what kind of hint would be most useful for getting you moving forward again.

 

So if you ask for a hint, it would save time to include an explanation of what you've tried so far.

 

It may also help to mention how much of a hint you want. I've received complete spoilers from puzzle-cache COs when all I wanted was a confirmation whether I was on the right track.

[+simon_cornelus]

It Depends on the puzzle, if it is easy to solve and already contains a hint on the listing you can repeate the hint or ask what they have already tried to solve the puzzle.

I personal don't mind helping out on my puzzles but they have to make some effort in searching also.

Maybe they've never solved a puzzle, or none of this type...

Feedback is also sometimes useful to provide a hint for common mistakes or in the checker to give a nudge in the right direction.

[fendmar]

Not a problem. I usually ask them if they want a nudge or a shove.

[Darwin473]

3 hours ago, simon_cornelus said:

Feedback is also sometimes useful...

 

Very true. A riddle like "what's black and white and red all over" may be incredibly obvious to an older person, but less so to someone who's never heard the joke before (or picked up a newspaper). Knowing that there's an issue which often trips people up or I've made assumptions which were wrong can only be fixed through finding out there's a problem to start with.

[+barefootjeff]

I'm happy to help people with my puzzles and multis but I do like them to have at least made some effort before they ask. Back in October, while I was out in bushland trying to suss out the answers to an EC, my phone chimed with a Message Centre alert. The conversation went like this:

- Regarding GCXXXXX: Could I get some assistance I. Figure if our this cache

- Yes, but you'll need to be a bit more specific about where you're stuck.

- where to start

- At the waypoints or access to GZ?

- The waypoint/puzzles I can’t figure out where to even start. This cache has been on my to do list for a while

At this point, I tried to piece together a quick guide to what is a moderately complex field puzzle, not helped by me standing on uneven ground close to a cliff while trying to juggle my GPSr, EC printout and phone. Had I been sitting at home in front of my PC, where I could have had the cache page and Message Centre both open on the screen, I might have been a bit more conducive. As I said, that was back in October and they still haven't attempted the cache. Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

 

So these days I tend to only set really easy puzzles, like GC9JDPF which was published in mid November. But I guess people don't like easy puzzles as it's only had four finders, two on the first day claiming joint FTF then one a month after that.

 

[+GeoElmo6000]

In most cases I try to make my puzzle caches have a great "a-ha" moment of discovery, and I've found that people who have that moment reward my caches with favorite points and nice logs, while others who are given the answer give my caches boring logs and no favorite points.

 

So, to answer the original question, I don't mind cachers asking me questions, but I will work with them for them to still have that "a-ha" moment.  A gentle nudge here or encouragement for something they discovered that'll help lead to the next step.

[+fizzymagic]

3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

In most cases I try to make my puzzle caches have a great "a-ha" moment of discovery, and I've found that people who have that moment reward my caches with favorite points and nice logs, while others who are given the answer give my caches boring logs and no favorite points.

 

I actually avoid having puzzles that rely on a single "aha!" moment.  I much prefer puzzles where the solver can start picking away and make progress from the beginning, and can see that they are making progress.

 

That said, I enjoy getting requests from people working on my puzzles.  It's fun to help people learn something new.

 

ETA:   I am by no means trying to judge others' puzzles.  When I started geocaching (nearly 20 years ago!) I was very into "AHA!" puzzles.   It is only after having done literally thousands that my preferences and habits changed. What I never liked (but am ashamed to say I did a couple times anyway) were "where is the puzzle?" type puzzles.  I think out of thousands of puzzles I have done maybe a handful of those that I thought were good puzzles.

Edited January 18, 2022 by fizzymagic
Added info

[+barefootjeff]

4 minutes ago, fizzymagic said:

I actually avoid having puzzles that rely on a single "aha!" moment.  I much prefer puzzles where the solver can start picking away and make progress from the beginning, and can see that they are making progress.

 

Yes, me too. There's a puzzle I solved recently that was like that, with a whole series of small steps and enough of an indication (like the most significant digits in the coordinates being the expected numbers) to show that I was on the right track. It took me a couple of nights to get there but once I had all the digits teased out the checker said yes.

 

With my own more complex puzzles, I like to leave hints in places like html comments, image EXIF fields or even just a play on words in a part of the description. The puzzle is still solvable without any of those hints but they should make it a bit easier, and if someone asks for help the first thing I do is give them pointers to those hints. Often that's enough to get them on their way to a green light.

[+dprovan]

9 hours ago, Jones_cubed said:

Puzzle cache CO's - 

How do you feel about people messaging you for hints/help with solving a puzzle?

I take it as part of being a puzzle CO.

[+GeoElmo6000]

1 hour ago, fizzymagic said:

I actually avoid having puzzles that rely on a single "aha!" moment.  I much prefer puzzles where the solver can start picking away and make progress from the beginning, and can see that they are making progress.

 

I create puzzles that I'd enjoy finding.  And when I say an "a-ha" moment, I just mean in general that the puzzle has something special that gives solvers a feeling of joy for solving it.  Learning something new about digits of pi, or seeing some creative way to use a trackable to solve a problem.  If you're ever in my area, feel free to skip my puzzles if they're not interesting to you.  

[+thebruce0]

4 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

That said, I enjoy getting requests from people working on my puzzles.  It's fun to help people learn something new.

 

Around here you'd have to specifically disclaim that it's okay to msg for a tip or hint, or they may just ask a friend for the final. =/

[+lee737]

5 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

That said, I enjoy getting requests from people working on my puzzles. 

+1 - our puzzles are definitely our most unloved, so it's nice to know someone is looking for them, even if only occasionally.... we've steered away from making puzzles a lot more recently, due to a lack of interest for most cachers....

[+barefootjeff]

36 minutes ago, lee737 said:

+1 - our puzzles are definitely our most unloved, so it's nice to know someone is looking for them, even if only occasionally.... we've steered away from making puzzles a lot more recently, due to a lack of interest for most cachers....

 

Your puzzles are great, well they're ones I could actually do without needing to get help! Often the unloved caches are the best because they're the ones that take a bit of effort to get the smiley.

[+TeamRabbitRun]

20 hours ago, Darwin473 said:

 

Very true. A riddle like "what's black and white and red all over" may be incredibly obvious to an older person, but less so to someone who's never heard the joke before (or picked up a newspaper). Knowing that there's an issue which often trips people up or I've made assumptions which were wrong can only be fixed through finding out there's a problem to start with.

 

When I was lad, us smart-alec kids always answered our Dads with "A sun-tanned zebra!"

[+CAVinoGal]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:26 AM, niraD said:

My first question when someone asks for a hint is, "What have you tried so far?" I want to know where you're stuck, to figure out what kind of hint would be most useful for getting you moving forward again.

 

So if you ask for a hint, it would save time to include an explanation of what you've tried so far.

 

It may also help to mention how much of a hint you want. I've received complete spoilers from puzzle-cache COs when all I wanted was a confirmation whether I was on the right track.

^^^THIS!

 

12 hours ago, lee737 said:

+1 - our puzzles are definitely our most unloved, so it's nice to know someone is looking for them, even if only occasionally.... we've steered away from making puzzles a lot more recently, due to a lack of interest for most cachers....

Puzzles are fun for me to create (I've only created a few, but that's the type of cache I like to hide!).  Another plus to hiding puzzles is that they are rarely muggled - newbies with an app are not going to see them, and if they are premium, won't take the time and effort to solve just to go take the cache.  Even "regular" geocachers don't do puzzles!  So I don't expect mine to get a lot of finds, and I'm ok with that.  Those that DO find them generally enjoy them, and say so in their logs.

 

Back to the OP and question - I don't mind at all if folks message me - they have done so several times! My reaction is much the same as niraD's.  I also get messages from other cachers on puzzles I have solved and found, asking for help.  I follow the same rules as I do for my own in those cases - what have you tried, where are you stuck?  I don't hand out solved coordinates when asked for help - I try to guide someone to solve it for themselves.

[+Max and 99]

5 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

I also get messages from other cachers on puzzles I have solved and found, asking for help

I would suggest they contact the CO.

[+cerberus1]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:10 AM, Jones_cubed said:

Puzzle cache CO's - 

How do you feel about people messaging you for hints/help with solving a puzzle?

 

The "puzzle" caches we had were pretty straightforward, done in the field, and a type that is no longer allowed today.

Most times we got questions were when I wasn't home to answer email.

I don't text and have never answered a question from someone not in contacts in real-time, wondering who gave a stranger my number.

- And no DNF isn't gonna get me all happy to call them back...

    Similarly, I will not give a hint for another's hide unless they're dead.  They're not mine...

We were FTF on a lot of caches, and the numerous "phone a friend" calls later really got outta hand.

[+Jones_cubed]

Thanks everybody!  That was very helpful. I love puzzle caches, but I can't stand the feeling of being stuck and not having a clue how to get unstuck. I also don't like to "bother" people. It seems, though, that the consensus is that puzzle COs don't mind being "bothered" as long as I am specific about what I want. I will keep this in mind.

 

I love puzzle caches so much that I bought this book.

[+MNTA]

What is someone to do when the CO is no longer available to respond to questions and provide hint? Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?

[+baer2006]

3 minutes ago, MNTA said:

What is someone to do when the CO is no longer available to respond to questions and provide hint? Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?

If the CO is really off the grid, you can try to contact one of these finders. If they actually solved the puzzle, then everything is fine. However, it might turn out, that all the latest finders just got the coordinates (without further information about the solution itself) from their friends or other finders. That's no reason to log NM/NA, but it might become really difficult then to get a hint for the puzzle solution.

[+ChriBli]

7 minutes ago, MNTA said:

What is someone to do when the CO is no longer available to respond to questions and provide hint? Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?

Certainly not. And if the CO doesn't respond, nothing stops you from asking some of the people that has solved it. If you still can't solve it, that's no reason to not let other people have a go at it. A trickier question is what to do if the puzzle can no longer be solved by anyone, but the container is still in place. Some may have solved it while that was possible but just haven't gotten around to go find it yet.

 

As for the original question, I'm happy to help anyone with my puzzles. I try to do it with small hints though, not serving the whole solution.

[+cerberus1]

49 minutes ago, MNTA said:

What is someone to do when the CO is no longer available to respond to questions and provide hint?

Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?

 

Why?  If it's still being solved and found, there's probably little indication something is wrong with it.   

Whether the CO is still available isn't much different than a CO that doesn't give hints. No hints and you'd NM/NA it?

If you can't solve it, ask another finder if you'd like, or skip it.  I'm dyslexic and skip a lot.  It's just a smiley... 

[+baer2006]

2 hours ago, ChriBli said:

A trickier question is what to do if the puzzle can no longer be solved by anyone, but the container is still in place. Some may have solved it while that was possible but just haven't gotten around to go find it yet.

In this case, I log an NM, asking the CO to fix the puzzle. If nothing happens, an NA follows. IMHO it doesn't make sense to keep unsolvable mystery caches alive.

[+dprovan]

4 hours ago, MNTA said:

What is someone to do when the CO is no longer available to respond to questions and provide hint? Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?

I agree with ChriBli: *you* not being able to solve a puzzle is definitely *not* a reason it needs maintenance, regardless of whether the CO is answering your pleas for help.

2 hours ago, baer2006 said:

In this case, I log an NM, asking the CO to fix the puzzle. If nothing happens, an NA follows. IMHO it doesn't make sense to keep unsolvable mystery caches alive.

Logging an NM is OK if the puzzle it not solvable. The example I'm thinking of it that an imagine required to solve the puzzle is no longer available. On the other hand, I'd post the NM but leave it to someone else -- hopefully someone that *has* solved it -- to declare it needs to be archived. Otherwise I'll assume there are people still able to find it, and pay no attention to it while they get around to it.

[+MNTA]

4 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Why?  If it's still being solved and found, there's probably little indication something is wrong with it.   

Whether the CO is still available isn't much different than a CO that doesn't give hints. No hints and you'd NM/NA it?

If you can't solve it, ask another finder if you'd like, or skip it.  I'm dyslexic and skip a lot.  It's just a smiley... 

 

If the MO of the CO was to spoon feed many of the previous finders which you see in the logs. If the CO no longer responds to questions why not a NM? Other finders are not the CO and per the rules does not own the cache or the puzzle so maintenance is not being provided. How does a previous finder know how to help with the puzzle or help in the same way the original CO would have. This would be no different than a throw down of a new container. 

 

I have no problems using the ignore list, current count is 1275.

 

One prolific hider of puzzle caches has several (11) unsolved caches to this day. So how many years does an unsolvable puzzle stay on the map with an inactive CO?  The oldest puzzle last found was 7 years ago chances are the urban hide is gone and everyone is just ignoring it.

 

 

[+lee737]

11 hours ago, MNTA said:

What is someone to do when the CO is no longer available to respond to questions and provide hint? Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?

If others are solving and finding, then no.... if it becomes obvious nobody can solve/find it and the CO is clearly out of the game, I would have no problem with asking a reviewer to adjudicate the situation....

[+mustakorppi]

Quote

All clues needed to solve the puzzle must be on the cache page, and the information to solve the puzzle must be publicly available.

 

I think that if a puzzle genuinely becomes unsolvable (e.g. the jigidi.com deletes all puzzles linked to from geocaching.com), it should be considered the same as if a waypoint had gone missing. NM followed by NA if the CO doesn't take action. Some leeway can be given for older caches that might have been created under different rules, depending on the situation.

 

If a puzzle simply becomes harder than it used to be, that's not a problem deserving of a NM. Giving hints for the puzzle is not part of CO maintencance expectations.

 

Whether people keep finding the mystery/multi cache shouldn't be relevant. Found it logs are not evidence of a cache being solvable and following the cache type's rules.

[+simon_cornelus]

19 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

I think that if a puzzle genuinely becomes unsolvable (e.g. the jigidi.com deletes all puzzles linked to from geocaching.com), it should be considered the same as if a waypoint had gone missing. NM followed by NA if the CO doesn't take action.

This way the CO can intervene before the NA log, Seems like a good solution.

But how much time should there be between the NM and NA? 
 

Only disadvantage seems that If a cache only gets found once or twice every year it will remain on NM for a long time. 

Sometimes cachers solve puzzles and don't log them until months (or years) later... This gives the CO and the potential finders an opportunity to take action.

[+baer2006]

9 hours ago, dprovan said:

Logging an NM is OK if the puzzle it not solvable. The example I'm thinking of it that an imagine required to solve the puzzle is no longer available.

Yes indeed, that's what I meant by "unsolvable". Not hard to solve, maybe much harder than when it was originally published, but unsolvable in principle because of a missing resource.

 

9 hours ago, dprovan said:

On the other hand, I'd post the NM but leave it to someone else -- hopefully someone that *has* solved it -- to declare it needs to be archived. Otherwise I'll assume there are people still able to find it, and pay no attention to it while they get around to it.

Actually, I would make sure that I know the intended way to solve puzzle (by asking a previous finder, who I know and trust) before I even log the NM. Because as others have pointed out, just because I can't solve a puzzle, doesn't mean it's unsolvable . So I wouldn't rely on previous solvers for the follow-up NA.

 

In any case, the whole scenario is very rare. I think I have NM'ed a puzzle cache for unsolvability only three times in my 13-year caching "career". One of them had you send an e-mail to an address with an auto-responder, and that e-mail account no longer existed. The other two had an image (or other file?) hosted on a file hosting service, which had become defunct.

[+baer2006]

33 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

Some leeway can be given for older caches that might have been created under different rules, depending on the situation.

I don't see what "leeway" you want to give to older caches. Unsolvable is unsolvable, no matter if the puzzle was perfectly fine back in the day when it was created. In fact, in my experience it's only older mysteries, which become unsolvable, because the CO relied on some external resource, which no longer exists.

[+baer2006]

8 hours ago, MNTA said:

One prolific hider of puzzle caches has several (11) unsolved caches to this day. So how many years does an unsolvable puzzle stay on the map with an inactive CO?

How do you know, that it's really unsolvable? It could just be really, really hard.

Anyway, if no-one has ever solved it (so there is no-one "in the know" except the CO) and the CO is inactive, then the cache will probably remain on the map forever.

 

Maybe you could contact a reviewer. They should have access to the original puzzle solution, which (at least around here) all COs must provide as a "Reviewer Note" before publication. So you could ask them just to verify, if the puzzle is still solvable. IIRC, several years ago something like that has been done on a mystery in Germany, and the reviewer posted a note in the listing to the effect that the puzzle is still solvable, and no reviewer action is needed.

[+mustakorppi]

1 minute ago, baer2006 said:

I don't see what "leeway" you want to give to older caches. Unsolvable is unsolvable, no matter if the puzzle was perfectly fine back in the day when it was created. In fact, in my experience it's only older mysteries, which become unsolvable, because the CO relied on some external resource, which no longer exists.

Caches exist that by are unsolvable by design if "solvable" is defined as what the current rules allow. Caches that are "solvable" now may become "unsolvable" by a future rule change, even if the cache itself stayed the same.

[+baer2006]

1 minute ago, mustakorppi said:

Caches exist that by are unsolvable by design if "solvable" is defined as what the current rules allow. Caches that are "solvable" now may become "unsolvable" by a future rule change, even if the cache itself stayed the same.

Ok, understood - thanks!

 

Anyway, in my view such caches are still solvable, and I would never think about posting NM/NA on them. For me, "unsolvable" means, that there is in principle no way that one can find the solution without asking anyone who already knows it.

[+Jayeffel]

I see no problem with asking either the CO or a previous finder for a clue. If asking the CO, how much is disclosed is the CO's choice. If asking a previous finder, I would expect some semi-vague response that helps me . 

 

As for me, what I have done in a few cases -- for the few puzzles I have attempted - if actually looking for the cache and ending with a DNF is contact the CO and tell what I was looking at or for. I seldom get a response. If only looking at cache information on the website and not getting anywhere I usually write the CO and explain what my problem is- - usually it ends up being I see no or recognize any hint. 

 

I have written to previous finders and received pointers. But puzzle caches usually end up in my "maybe sometime I will try" list.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Jayeffel

[+cerberus1]

Kinda confusing now, but it seems the latest off-topic posts are for "unsolvable" puzzles, when the last off-topic question was "Should a NM/NA be filed despite some individuals still solving and finding the cache?" .         

[+ChriBli]

Most CO:s (there are exceptions) want their puzzles to be solved, and are therefore helpful when contacted. But if they choose not to be, or are not contactable for one or the other reason, then I would recommend the following:

 

If the puzzle is still being solved, as can be seen from checker stats or the contents of finders' logs, then neither NM nor NA should be posted. That's a no-brainer.

 

If the puzzle has certainly become unsolvable, e.g. it is obviously missing a picture and a previous solver confirms that the picture is needed, then post an NM. That will give the CO a chance to fix it (however unlikely) and more importantly, people having already solved the puzzle a chance to go out and find the cache.

 

If the container is obviously missing then by all means post an NM, followed by an NA if nothing happens. I personally would need to be pretty certain before I did that, however. Only on one occasion have I posted an NM for a cache that only I have DNF:ed since it was last found, but then I had been there three times to search, had obtained pictures and descriptions from previous finders, had tried to contact the CO in all possible ways and years had passed since my first attempt. And this only in the hope that the CO would improve their ways and go out and place a new container already. I have no wish for this cache to be archived. I want to find it!

[+lee737]

5 hours ago, ChriBli said:

If the puzzle has certainly become unsolvable, e.g. it is obviously missing a picture and a previous solver confirms that the picture is needed, then post an NM. That will give the CO a chance to fix it (however unlikely) and more importantly, people having already solved the puzzle a chance to go out and find the cache.

 

If the container is obviously missing then by all means post an NM, followed by an NA if nothing happens.

 

I wouldn't preserve the NA for only when the container is missing - if the puzzle is damaged as above and can't be solved, then the container may as well be missing anyway, and it also deserves an NA after an appropriate time for the CO to rectify.....