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The San Diego Thread


Night Hunter

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To answer the concern of why I bookmark a cache after I post my archive request or note, it is so I get an emial of logs made to it after that. This is how I was notified so quickly when GoBolts! posted the note asking for help with his cache. Why make that bookmark list public? trasnparency... believe it or not.

 

So the methodology... Run a PQ for the 500 disabled caches closest to seaworld zip code. Sort them in GSAK by last log date. This will sort so I can see the ones that havent been paid attention to in a long time. If so much as a note is posted from time to time, it should never make it up to the interesting time frame for me.

 

If the last post was in 2007, I post a request for archive. Like our Armenian friend said, this is a forgiving process, and just cause I request archive doesnt mean squat, except that it puts it on the reviewers radar too. That in it's self is no biggie if the owner just posts a note to update what's going on, the reviewer will see that, and then it's all good. If on the other hand the owner proves to be MIA for some period of time that the reviewer determines, then a reviewer makes a decision.

 

If the last post was in 2008, then I post a note asking what's up, and again, it goes on a bookmark list that again is kept public.

 

The interesting point here for all of you is that if I keep the methodology clean, then my caches would be marked in those situations as well. Why would anyone suggest I wouldnt post a request on my own cache and then fix it per the plan. First rule of a secret identity, dont rat yourself out! remember the scence in Batman Begins where Bruce Wayne is saying that Batman is clearly deluded? So who would suspect him?

 

Another interesting tie in there, which really has nothing to do with geocaching, but in 1929 The Shadow broke up a group of armed thugs, and saved the life of Thomas Wayne, and his young son Bruce. I keep watching closely to see if they will ever seize on the opportunity to show Bruce Wayne wearing a Girisol ring.

 

But back to my point... the only suspect you have definitively ruled out is yourself. I could still be any of the rest of you, or none.... but does it matter who I am? That so many of you immidiately asked who I was shows clear need for this second account. You yourselves admitted in this thread that my biggest 'crime' is being blunt and frank, that beyond that I have dont nothing more than prompt you on many counts of procrastination.

 

Interesting stat to go along with that. I posted 80 requests for archive that night, and while I got a lot of grief for the fire areas, I assure you, the majority were not in burn areas at all. Of those 80, a full 30 had been addressed by the owners within 24 hours. when I posted the simple note to ask what was going on with those not posted on since january, about 40 of them, a few days later I have still only seen the owners respond on 4 of them. To me this seems statistically significant. Even in the face of that interesting tidbit, I plan to continue with the simple note plan, based in no small part of my conversations with one of the people in this forum. Thanks Brother. On the flip side, if the owners of those caches dont answer the posted question asking what is going on with the cache, it stands to reason that a request for archive eventually be issued. though it is way to short to make a long story short, the reason I am posting here today is to ask this forum what the reasonable time period for that might be?

 

For those who still have angst in my direction, feel free to fire your salvo, I wont respond to it. I will be reading, but only to look for the answer to that question above.

 

I guess by asking for your input on this, all of you just became my Shadow Council.... Girisol Rings for everyone!

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Kent, I think many of us want to figure out who you are because we are curious. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter who you are. The point is that many of us have some maintenance work to do. Now if we could only get the active abandoned caches out there with all those "true" DNFs disabled.... :unsure:

Edited by TrailGators
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Kent, I think many of us want to figure out who you are because we are curious. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter who you are. The point is that many of us have some maintenance work to do. Now if we could only get the active abandoned caches out there with all those "true" DNFs disabled.... :unsure:

My gosh. hasn't the weather been hot lately?

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Kent, I think many of us want to figure out who you are because we are curious. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter who you are. The point is that many of us have some maintenance work to do. Now if we could only get the active abandoned caches out there with all those "true" DNFs disabled.... :ph34r:

My gosh. hasn't the weather been hot lately?

Yes and this weekend it's going to be even hotter. It is supposed to be over 100 in most of east county this weekend. :unsure:
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...6 of those DNFs are the same cache...

Hmmm...This raises controversial questions about DNFs...

  • Should you be able to log multiple frownies on a cache that you didn't find? Doesn't the act of not finding it include the totality of all failed attempts to search for a cache?
  • Should you be allowed to log a frownie on a cache that turns out to missing? If the cache wasn't there to find, then can you really claim that you didn't find it?
  • On a multicache, should you be able to log a frownie for each WP that you didn't find? (Those that argue against, claim that a 5-star cache is much easier to DNF than a 1-star and yet you still only get one frownie. Why should multicaches be treated differently?
  • What if you were there when the cache was placed? If you didn't find the cache at that point, is this a FTDNF or were you merely a beta-DNF?
  • Do you have to not sign the log book in order to claim a DNF?

And the most controversial of all...

  • Should you be able to log a "Did not attend" for every event cache that you didn't find at an event? (Of course, the mere fact that there is no such thing as a "Did Not Attend" log type makes this doubly controversial...)

:ph34r::unsure:

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To answer the concern of why I bookmark a cache after I post my archive request or note, it is so I get an emial of logs made to it after that. This is how I was notified so quickly when GoBolts! posted the note asking for help with his cache. Why make that bookmark list public? trasnparency... believe it or not.

 

----snip---

From reading people's comments and from talking to various cachers, the thing that has tended to annoy people has been the apparent heavy-handedness and the veil of secrecy.

 

For the former, you could save yourself a little grief with a little more diplomacy and forethought.

 

As for the latter, the problem with living a lie is that sooner or later the truth comes out. If you have nothing to be afraid of, then you should stand behind your actions instead of hiding behind a mask. If you do have something to be afraid of, then it's only a matter of time before the mask is stripped away and you have to deal with the consequences of your actions anyway.

 

BTW, It's interesting that you speak of transparency and yet you hide behind a mask. Perhaps the best course of action would be complete transparency?

 

Personally, I'm not sure what you have to be afraid of. I've made numerous SBA logs (mine, though, are spread out, over the course of three years) and I stand behind my comments on every one of them...

 

<editted for grammar and an added comment>

Edited by Let's Look Over Thayer
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To answer the concern of why I bookmark a cache after I post my archive request or note, it is so I get an emial of logs made to it after that. This is how I was notified so quickly when GoBolts! posted the note asking for help with his cache. Why make that bookmark list public? trasnparency... believe it or not.

 

----snip---

From reading people's comments and from talking to various cachers, the thing that has tended to annoy people has been the apparent heavy-handedness and the veil of secrecy.

 

For the former, you could save yourself a little grief with a little more diplomacy and forethought.

 

As for the latter, the problem with living a lie is that sooner or later the truth comes out. If you have nothing to be afraid of, then you should stand behind your actions instead of hiding behind a mask. If you do have something to be afraid of, then it's only a matter of time before the mask is stripped away and you have to deal with the consequences of your actions anyway.

 

BTW, It's interesting that you speak of transparency and yet you hide behind a mask. Perhaps the best course of action would be complete transparency?

 

Personally, I'm not sure what you have to be afraid of. I've made numerous SBA logs (mine, though, are spread out, over the course of three years) and I stand behind my comments on every one of them...

 

<editted for grammar and an added comment>

I agree. A lot of people with legit reasons got their toes stepped on. If you can't stand firmly behind each SBA then don't issue it. Edited by TrailGators
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To all my fellow SD Cachers,

It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!!

 

Rob (ea6bflyr) :unsure:

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To all my fellow SD Cachers,

It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!!

 

Rob (ea6bflyr) :unsure:

 

"Fair Winds and Following Seas" 0002029C.gif Fly Safe and watch your 6.

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To all my fellow SD Cachers,

It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!!

 

Rob (ea6bflyr) :unsure:

 

"Fair Winds and Following Seas" 0002029C.gif Fly Safe and watch your 6.

 

Good luck Rob!
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It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!

Sorry to see you go, but at least you'll be over the Gulf Coast and not over the Gulf...

 

Stay well and may all your traps be "OK3"

Edited by Let's Look Over Thayer
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To all my fellow SD Cachers,

It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!!

 

Rob (ea6bflyr) :unsure:

We'll echo Skillet's "Fair winds and followig seas"
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Kent, I think many of us want to figure out who you are because we are curious. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter who you are. The point is that many of us have some maintenance work to do. Now if we could only get the active abandoned caches out there with all those "true" DNFs disabled.... :unsure:
I couldn't help but notice that Kent Allard is an anagram for All Red Tank, suggesting that you drive a big red truck. Now . . . who do we know that fits this?
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To all my fellow SD Cachers,

It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!!

 

Rob (ea6bflyr) :unsure:

 

 

 

Hey Rob,

 

Best of luck to you. Stay safe and we sure hope our paths cross again...it's a small Navy Family so who knows!

 

Regards/ Your Cachin' and Navy friends Jodi and John

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To all my fellow SD Cachers,

It's been a pleasure meeting, finding your caches, discovering your TBs and Coins, and caching with you all. As I make final preps to move to Pensacola, I think of all the good times I've had here in San Diego and all the friendly cachers I've met over the years. I'll continue to cache in the Gulf Coast except instead of watching out for Snakes, I'll be watching out for Gators and other Snakes. Thanks for all you have done for the sport and "Stay Classy San Diego" Geocachers!!!

 

Rob (ea6bflyr) :D

 

I will echo jahoadi and john and skillet, with the exception of following seas, they make you sick and are harder to drive in. :blink: I will follow you at some point down to the gulf coast but not pensacola but Mobile, AL, home to the

. Enjoy yourself and goodluck.

 

Mark

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OK, back to the duck. I've been giving this a bit of thought lately and have decided that what Kent Allard has done is probably a good thing, even though he has stepped on some toes. It has prodded some of us into doing maintenance on caches that should have been done a long time ago, and cleaned out some others to make room for new caches.

 

So I began to wonder . . . what is a fair amount of time, under most circumstances, to have a cache listed as temporarily disabled? What is temporary? I'd like to hear what others think on this. If I disable one of my caches, saying there may be a problem with it, and I will be checking on it soon, how many weeks or months, in most cases, is it reasonable for me to take to get it back online?

Edited by Snake & Rooster
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OK, back to the duck. I've been giving this a bit of thought lately and have decided that what Kent Allard has done is probably a good thing, even though he has stepped on some toes. It has prodded some of us into doing maintenance on caches that should have been done a long time ago, and cleaned out some others to make room for new caches.

 

So I began to wonder . . . what is a fair amount of time, under most circumstances, to have a cache listed as temporarily disabled? What is temporary? I'd like to hear what others think on this. If I disable one of my caches, saying there may be a problem with it, and I will be checking on it soon, how many weeks or months, in most cases, is it reasonable for me to take to get it back online?

I think it depends. When there is a fire and the area remains closed, I think indefinitely is OK. When there is no good reason other than laziness, I think the rule of thumb I read somewhere is to look at the average number of days between finds and use that as a benchmark. So if the cache had been found 6 times in 6 months, 1-month is a good benchmark. If the cache had been found 24 times in 6 months, then 1-week is a good benchmark. The Reviewers will always give at least 4-weeks before checking back, and so long as there is a note of explanation (reasonable), they will usually leave things alone...

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I think you should check on it within at least a month because it hurts new cachers that might want to find one near there home and they see plenty but then some have be disabled. I usally wait a month. Also unless the cache has some really sentimental value why not archive it and let some one who may be new to caching hide one.

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Backpack update:

 

Been slowed down by some design mods along the way and am now working through some embroidery probs. The good news is that I've got some cool collectibles and other fun swag ready to load into the three backpacks and will hide them for a couple of GC'ers to find soon!

 

snakemq2.jpg

Snake! was sewn to Simplicity specs with a separating zipper that allows the pack to be worn as a backpack or off the shoulder. It has two elasticized pockets for water bottles and a large front pocket with Velcro closure. There is also a pencil holder inside.

 

Special care has also been taken to match overall patterning on all models and the 100% cotton fabric has been washed and preshrunk.

Ooooh, ooooh, I want one of those! As long as none of my kin were used in the making of that pack :angry:

 

polarrs3.jpg

I got mine today and I'm happy to say that no Polar Bears were harmed in making or retrieving the bag. :D

Thank you travelita!

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...On the flip side, if the owners of those caches dont answer the posted question asking what is going on with the cache, it stands to reason that a request for archive eventually be issued. though it is way to short to make a long story short, the reason I am posting here today is to ask this forum what the reasonable time period for that might be?...

Unless I'm interested in an area near a disabled cache, or am eagar to make a find on a disabled cache, I don't care how long the cache remains disabled.

 

I continue to be impressed at the time and energy you are wasting in this cause when there are much more deserving causes out there. You have organization skills and, apparently, extra time on your hands that shouldn't be wasted on us. We're not worthy.

 

Here is a link to San Diego Volunteers. If you are already signed up, then spend more time with them and less on us.

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...On the flip side, if the owners of those caches dont answer the posted question asking what is going on with the cache, it stands to reason that a request for archive eventually be issued. though it is way to short to make a long story short, the reason I am posting here today is to ask this forum what the reasonable time period for that might be?...

Unless I'm interested in an area near a disabled cache, or am eagar to make a find on a disabled cache, I don't care how long the cache remains disabled.

 

I continue to be impressed at the time and energy you are wasting in this cause when there are much more deserving causes out there. You have organization skills and, apparently, extra time on your hands that shouldn't be wasted on us. We're not worthy.

 

Here is a link to San Diego Volunteers. If you are already signed up, then spend more time with them and less on us.

 

 

 

Hey, their logo seems vaguely familiar:

 

hosd_small_logo.jpg

 

:)

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...On the flip side, if the owners of those caches dont answer the posted question asking what is going on with the cache, it stands to reason that a request for archive eventually be issued. though it is way to short to make a long story short, the reason I am posting here today is to ask this forum what the reasonable time period for that might be?...

Unless I'm interested in an area near a disabled cache, or am eagar to make a find on a disabled cache, I don't care how long the cache remains disabled.

 

I continue to be impressed at the time and energy you are wasting in this cause when there are much more deserving causes out there. You have organization skills and, apparently, extra time on your hands that shouldn't be wasted on us. We're not worthy.

 

Here is a link to San Diego Volunteers. If you are already signed up, then spend more time with them and less on us.

 

I don't think there shoul be a time set it is when the owner wants to et around to it. i know for me if i wanted a cache bad enough that was dsabled i emailed the owner to see if i could replace it for them

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Just got confirmation from David Hekel, one of the Rangers in the San Dieguito River Park, that Boden Canyon and Santa Ysabel Preserve are open for Geocaching! Don't forget to submit permits in these areas, and in all SDRP areas... For Santa Ysabel, I sent him the locations and descriptions of my caches, and those have all been approved.

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Tomorrow morning, zatyko and I are taking a motorcycle ride up the 395 and over to the 4 to visit this cache.

Friday, we'll ride from San Diego to Bishop.

Saturday, we will ride through the Sierra's on highways 4 and 108 and then back to Bishop.

Sunday, we will head back to SD. We will expect to ride about 1,150 miles in three days. :D

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Tomorrow morning, zatyko and I are taking a motorcycle ride up the 395 and over to the 4 to visit this cache.

Friday, we'll ride from San Diego to Bishop.

Saturday, we will ride through the Sierra's on highways 4 and 108 and then back to Bishop.

Sunday, we will head back to SD. We will expect to ride about 1,150 miles in three days. :D

 

Have fun, be safe. :DB)B)

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I visited my From the Earth to the Moon puzzle series final cache today and discovered that, as reported, a really nice coin and a jeep I'd put there in Oct. 2007 were gone. I doubt this cache was muggled, I think it is the work of our local geocacher/coin stealer. This coin stealer must be smart enough to solve some puzzles, go there and solve a final puzzle, or someone gave them the coords. They weren't hard puzzles, but that does narrow it down a bit.

 

I think a lot of coins go missing because inexperienced geocachers think they are trading items, but I think it is clear that too many coins go missing in this area for that to be all of it. What a shame! It is so neat to find a beautiful coin in a cache and to be able to pass it along.

 

Would the coin stealer mind telling us what pleasure they get from having all these coins?

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I visited my From the Earth to the Moon puzzle series final cache today and discovered that, as reported, a really nice coin and a jeep I'd put there in Oct. 2007 were gone. I doubt this cache was muggled, I think it is the work of our local geocacher/coin stealer. This coin stealer must be smart enough to solve some puzzles, go there and solve a final puzzle, or someone gave them the coords. They weren't hard puzzles, but that does narrow it down a bit.

 

I think a lot of coins go missing because inexperienced geocachers think they are trading items, but I think it is clear that too many coins go missing in this area for that to be all of it. What a shame! It is so neat to find a beautiful coin in a cache and to be able to pass it along.

 

Would the coin stealer mind telling us what pleasure they get from having all these coins?

Yea they m,ust be pretty twiste. I love moving any trackable item, I usually get cheap coins now to send out and my more expensive coins i usuallyu try to mail elsewhere or just keep

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Hello from Northern Michigan. Hitting a few caches - following two tracks out in the bonnies, wading rivers and finding caches (no I'm not lost, see I'm right here). There are quite a few caches in the Pigon River Forest. Pictures to follow.

 

shortwing

 

Do you have your 4WD Van with you? If not you should it sounds like you may need it. 000202C4.gif

[/url]

Edited by SKILLET
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Hello from Northern Michigan. Hitting a few caches - following two tracks out in the bonnies, wading rivers and finding caches (no I'm not lost, see I'm right here). There are quite a few caches in the Pigon River Forest. Pictures to follow.

 

shortwing

 

Do you have your 4WD Van with you? If not you should it sounds like you may need it. 000202C4.gif

[/url]

 

No VAN my brother has an SUV. The caches are a lot harder to find as the vegation is thick and well over my head. No trails to follow because the caches are found only a 4 or 5 times a year - often while riding snow machine.

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I visited my From the Earth to the Moon puzzle series final cache today and discovered that, as reported, a really nice coin and a jeep I'd put there in Oct. 2007 were gone. I doubt this cache was muggled, I think it is the work of our local geocacher/coin stealer. This coin stealer must be smart enough to solve some puzzles, go there and solve a final puzzle, or someone gave them the coords. They weren't hard puzzles, but that does narrow it down a bit.

 

I think a lot of coins go missing because inexperienced geocachers think they are trading items, but I think it is clear that too many coins go missing in this area for that to be all of it. What a shame! It is so neat to find a beautiful coin in a cache and to be able to pass it along.

 

Would the coin stealer mind telling us what pleasure they get from having all these coins?

 

I knew a geocacher who thought the coins were like lil' prizes to keep ... he'd kept a coin for more than 5 YEARS! When I told him he needed to move the coin, he was shocked. So in SOME cases, I think it's a case of inexperience and naivete. Some people don't realize TBs and GCs belong to someone. Yeah, I know ... hard to believe; but true. I tend to put my coins in SO caches now, but even that doesn't protect them for long - unless those who pick up the coin do likewise.

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Side issue: Due to family illness, I will be returning to Australia in the first week of August. Local geocachers in my hometown are having a geocaching event that I will be attending. Last time I went home the AU Geocachers were in awe of the geocoins I picked up before leaving - they don't get many, and most of them had never seen a Jeep before.

 

Got a coin that needs to travel? Small palm size TB's will be taken also (But not Fattboy's nuts :lol: )

 

Those not picked up at the event will be placed in our AU home cache.

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Side issue: Due to family illness, I will be returning to Australia in the first week of August. Local geocachers in my hometown are having a geocaching event that I will be attending. Last time I went home the AU Geocachers were in awe of the geocoins I picked up before leaving - they don't get many, and most of them had never seen a Jeep before.

 

Got a coin that needs to travel? Small palm size TB's will be taken also (But not Fattboy's nuts :rolleyes: )

 

Those not picked up at the event will be placed in our AU home cache.

 

Have a safe trip and wish the best for your family.

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Side issue: Due to family illness, I will be returning to Australia in the first week of August. Local geocachers in my hometown are having a geocaching event that I will be attending. Last time I went home the AU Geocachers were in awe of the geocoins I picked up before leaving - they don't get many, and most of them had never seen a Jeep before.

 

Got a coin that needs to travel? Small palm size TB's will be taken also (But not Fattboy's nuts :rolleyes: )

 

Those not picked up at the event will be placed in our AU home cache.

Yea i have a few coins that you could take

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Side issue: Due to family illness, I will be returning to Australia in the first week of August. Local geocachers in my hometown are having a geocaching event that I will be attending. Last time I went home the AU Geocachers were in awe of the geocoins I picked up before leaving - they don't get many, and most of them had never seen a Jeep before.

 

Got a coin that needs to travel? Small palm size TB's will be taken also (But not Fattboy's nuts :rolleyes: )

 

Those not picked up at the event will be placed in our AU home cache.

Yea i have a few coins that you could take

 

You should contact the owners of the coins and see if they want them to go that far cause they may take along time to come back.

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Side issue: Due to family illness, I will be returning to Australia in the first week of August. Local geocachers in my hometown are having a geocaching event that I will be attending. Last time I went home the AU Geocachers were in awe of the geocoins I picked up before leaving - they don't get many, and most of them had never seen a Jeep before.

 

Got a coin that needs to travel? Small palm size TB's will be taken also (But not Fattboy's nuts :huh: )

 

Those not picked up at the event will be placed in our AU home cache.

Yea i have a few coins that you could take

 

You should contact the owners of the coins and see if they want them to go that far cause they may take along time to come back.

no they are coins i own i've just started putting into caches

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Side issue: Due to family illness, I will be returning to Australia in the first week of August. Local geocachers in my hometown are having a geocaching event that I will be attending. Last time I went home the AU Geocachers were in awe of the geocoins I picked up before leaving - they don't get many, and most of them had never seen a Jeep before.

 

Got a coin that needs to travel? Small palm size TB's will be taken also (But not Fattboy's nuts :huh: )

 

Those not picked up at the event will be placed in our AU home cache.

Yea i have a few coins that you could take

 

You should contact the owners of the coins and see if they want them to go that far cause they may take along time to come back.

no they are coins i own i've just started putting into caches

 

Thats cool. :huh::o

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REI is selling the new Garmin Oregons now... :huh:

 

Don't rush down there quite yet to plunk down your $600. They're not actually available until the 15th but you can probably pre-order.

I know the Colorado doesn't work really well with manually input waypoints, has anyone heard if the Oregon is the same?

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REI is selling the new Garmin Oregons now... :huh:

 

Don't rush down there quite yet to plunk down your $600. They're not actually available until the 15th but you can probably pre-order.

I know the Colorado doesn't work really well with manually input waypoints, has anyone heard if the Oregon is the same?

Flagman should purchase one right away and let us know what he thinks of it. Besides, he'll put it to the slip-and-fall-on-it test.

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