GPS spoofing

[+GeocacheMonster]

I realized that some players are spoofing their GPS and solving adventure lab geocaches worldwide from the comfort of their homes. Usually, they will not review the cache because their log would be public.  Before around ten days, I've published my lab cache, and of about five completions, 3 were 99% with spoofed GPS.

What is the point of that? One player completed my adventure lab cache, and before that, he logged caches in Austria, not a single found in Croatia. His lab cache count is 5742. Answers in 99.99% can be googled or guessed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by MaG_MM
To not to show what can be done.

[+Max and 99]

20 minutes ago, MaG_MM said:

I've tested one app, and I was able to play lab cache in Arkansas, and I am in Croatia (Europe). Note: I did not answer the question and did anything that is against the rules or morals. 

Yes you did. GPS spoofing is not allowed. 

[+GeocacheMonster]

1 minute ago, HHL said:

No, he didn't, as long as he wasn't really playing.

Correct. Thanks for the support. 

 

I hope someone will help with some information on stopping this kind of thing. I plan to place a sticker with some code on my first stage that can't be googled or guessed to stop solving with spoofed GPS.

[+arisoft]

10 hours ago, MaG_MM said:

I hope someone will help with some information on stopping this kind of thing. I plan to place a sticker with some code on my first stage that can't be googled or guessed to stop solving with spoofed GPS.

 

The reason why a player must answer questions is just to verify that they are on the waypoint. When you plan your ALC, you should find questions that requires visiting the site, not something that is too easy to guess like counting flagpoles or year on a statue.

 

Using stickers is not allowed because, what I have been told, all stages must be 100% virtual. You must find a better way.

 

The same thing happens with mystery caches. Some players solve the mystery and most players just find the cache without solving the mystery. It is better to focus on those players who are playing your game and forget others.

Edited December 20, 2021 by arisoft

[+Max and 99]

1 hour ago, MaG_MM said:

I plan to place a sticker with some code on my first stage

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=143

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Max and 99

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, arisoft said:

The reason why a player must answer questions is just to verify that they are on the waypoint. When you plan your ALC, you should find questions that requires visiting the site, not something that is too easy to guess like counting flagspoles or year on a statue.

 

Except the recommended (and default) question type in the builder now is multi-choice. At most four guesses and you're in.

[+GeocacheMonster]

8 hours ago, arisoft said:

It is better to focus on those players who are playing your game and forget others.

100% true. After a good sleep, I do not care anymore at all. At least I got some experience and new knowledge. 

[+arisoft]

6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Except the recommended (and default) question type in the builder now is multi-choice. At most four guesses and you're in.

 

This is something I do not understand why such an option exists. I have seen good questions made worthless with this.

[+mustakorppi]

2 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

This is something I do not understand why such an option exists.

Multiple choice means no more problems with typos on the phone, no more problems with typos from the AL creator, no more guessing the correct inflection of the answer etc.

 

Yes, it also makes cheating easier but as someone wise once said "It is better to focus on those players who are playing your game and forget others."

Edited December 20, 2021 by mustakorppi
grammar

[+kunarion]

14 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Except the recommended (and default) question type in the builder now is multi-choice. At most four guesses and you're in.

 

Is there some value to designing an App that makes cheating easy?  Sure, "one is only cheating oneself", but there are thousands of game Apps that you never see threads about cheating.  Design some anti-cheating algorithms.  And allow the AL Owner to change an answer or two (in case of answers being published).  I've heard that AL Owners have no control at all upon activation.  All of the above is unappealing to me as a potential AL creator.  Fix it.

 

The ALs I've done require typing, and hanging out at a spot much longer that I would hope.

 

"How many posts?"

 

OK, there are five.  I typed "five", not accepted.  The number "5".  Must "Five" be capitalized?  Nope, that didn't work.  The phrase "Five Posts"?  Nope.  Do they include the flag pole?  Those concrete pillars?

 

But there are five posts.  What could it be?  I'll try my options again.  Maybe I made a typo on one of them...  This test is TOUGH.  Now I'm thinking of friends and family who aren't interested in Geocaching, and I'm beginning to agree with their opinion of it.  And what if they were doing this AL with me.  "I already typed '5' and I typed 'five'.  Man this is ________."   (fill in the blank, "Boring, let's stop"?  "Exciting, now I love Geocaching"?)

 

Multiple choice in that case would be a godsend.  But yeah, it's attractive to cheaters.  What if they're all multiple choice except for a question or two about counting posts?  That would take forever.

 

If made multiple choice, what if you may walk the entire trail before shown the results?  That would require many more guesses if one is cheating.  BUT the answers must be obvious to someone walking the trail, so you don't need to do the whole thing over if you get one wrong.  Because you get them right on the first pass.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by kunarion

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, kunarion said:

there are thousands of game Apps that you never see threads about cheating

 

I don't know about mobile apps but cheating is mentioned repeatedly in e-sports. It has been part of on-line gaming for as long as I can remember. If there is competition there is cheating.

[+Mausebiber]

2 hours ago, arisoft said:

If there is competition there is cheating.

 

This might be true, but where is the competition with geocaching?   I'm not gaining or loosing anything if I have more or less finds, it is a completely irrelevant number.

 

Don't forget what Jeremy said long time ago:

 

[+barefootjeff]

10 hours ago, mustakorppi said:

Multiple choice means no more problems with typos on the phone, no more problems with typos from the AL creator, no more guessing the correct inflection of the answer etc.

 

Yes, it also makes cheating easier but as someone wise once said "It is better to focus on those players who are playing your game and forget others."

 

Multiple choice also means you don't have to bother to stop and look for the thing you're supposed to find, instead just get within the geofence and try each option. "Is it A? Nup. Is it B? Nup. Is it C? Yay! On to the next smiley..."

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

This might be true, but where is the competition with geocaching?

 

Do you remember what is the topmost item in your public profile page after your avatar? (Don't peek ) Is it possible that this item is somehow related to this topic?

[+baer2006]

6 hours ago, kunarion said:

And allow the AL Owner to change an answer or two (in case of answers being published).  I've heard that AL Owners have no control at all upon activation. 

An AL Owner can change all aspects of AL locations at any time. Question, answer, description, coordinates(!), image, journal entry, you name it. In fact, an owner can revamp his AL into an entirely new one, which has nothing to do whatsoever with the original AL.

[+kunarion]

2 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

An AL Owner can change all aspects of AL locations at any time. Question, answer, description, coordinates(!), image, journal entry, you name it. In fact, an owner can revamp his AL into an entirely new one, which has nothing to do whatsoever with the original AL.

Good to know!  I might mention that to a local AL Owner who has specifically stated otherwise.

[+baer2006]

4 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Good to know!  I might mention that to a local AL Owner who has specifically stated otherwise.

Small caveat: GS could of course restrict the owner's options. It's been a while, since I changed something on my active AL.

[+kunarion]

3 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

Small caveat: GS could of course restrict the owner's options. It's been a while, since I changed something on my active AL.

If my caches are any indication I’d need to edit my AL.  I work for a couple of months on any cache I place, adding important stuff to the page and correcting all the mistakes. 

[+mustakorppi]

59 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Multiple choice also means you don't have to bother to stop and look for the thing you're supposed to find, instead just get within the geofence and try each option. "Is it A? Nup. Is it B? Nup. Is it C? Yay! On to the next smiley..."

Why would you even think about doing that? I thought you delete your lab finds.

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Multiple choice also means you don't have to bother to stop and look for the thing you're supposed to find, instead just get within the geofence and try each option. "Is it A? Nup. Is it B? Nup. Is it C? Yay! On to the next smiley..."

Once I’m at the spot, the answer is apparent, and multiple choice would be appreciated over a lot of typed guesses about the exact answer format about the number of posts (for example).  Or are some ALs more challenging?

 

If the intent of The App is to keep honest people honest, it does that.  It doesn’t prevent cheating. I guess TPTB are fine with that.

[+barefootjeff]

16 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

Multiple choice also means you don't have to bother to stop and look for the thing you're supposed to find, instead just get within the geofence and try each option. "Is it A? Nup. Is it B? Nup. Is it C? Yay! On to the next smiley..."

Why would you even think about doing that? I thought you delete your lab finds.

 

What makes you think that's something I'd want to do? I'm talking about all those other cachers out there who are only interested in their smiley count. Here's an example with my latest AL, 5 Lands Walk, which is placed at the five "lands" along the 10km walking trail of the same name. I designed the AL around someone actually doing the walk but there's road access to all the locations so I have to accept that some people will just drive to them and not experience the walk. So far 17 people have visited at least one of the locations, 11 have completed the AL and 8 have left activity logs reviews. Of those 8, all have said they just drove to each of the locations.

 

Is this a bad AL? While it's not very satisfying for me as an owner, those who've done it have apparently enjoyed doing it that way and the logs on the bonus cache are pretty complimentary, with 3 FPs given. So on the basis of customer satisfaction, it seems to have been a good thing even if no-one's wanted to have the intended experience.

[+Mausebiber]

54 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I'm talking about all those other cachers out there who are only interested in their smiley count.

Yes, but why are you interested in someone else smiley count?  I really don't understand.  You have to open some other cacher's profile and need to look what he/she has done in the past.

My understanding of geocaching as an owner including AL is, I'm providing a service, posting a listing, compiling some questions, providing some information and that's it.

Now, some enjoying the walk, the search, the hide, others prefer to do it the easy way.  How does this affect me?  Not at all.  They are having fun, mission for me accomplished.

 

[+barefootjeff]

11 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

Yes, but why are you interested in someone else smiley count?  I really don't understand.  You have to open some other cacher's profile and need to look what he/she has done in the past.

My understanding of geocaching as an owner including AL is, I'm providing a service, posting a listing, compiling some questions, providing some information and that's it.

Now, some enjoying the walk, the search, the hide, others prefer to do it the easy way.  How does this affect me?  Not at all.  They are having fun, mission for me accomplished.

 

 

My posts aren't about ME, they're my thoughts on how the game is evolving. Does it bother me that someone I don't know can cheat on an AL or just guess a multi-choice answer without even looking for the thing they're supposed to be finding? NO. Do I think that's bad for the game as a whole? YES.

 

I accept that as an AL owner I have no say in how people play my ALs. However, my motivation in creating those ALs in the first place is to share an experience I've enjoyed. If you take that away and expect that ALs should just be a quick and easy way to accumulate lots of smileys, you take away that motivation, and I think the impact of that on the game overall is a bad thing.

[+arisoft]

36 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

You have to open some other cacher's profile and need to look what he/she has done in the past.

 

Ok, can you explain what is the number below your avatar in every log you have made? For me it looks like a smiley count.

Even this gamehobby is not about the find count, it is still pretty visible. If a player has public statistics opted out from the profile, this number is still visible - why?

Edited December 21, 2021 by arisoft

[+Max and 99]

3 hours ago, kunarion said:

Good to know!  I might mention that to a local AL Owner who has specifically stated otherwise.

I have completed an adventure lab that has changed so much I've never been to any of the locations. None. 

[+Goldenwattle]

24 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Ok, can you explain what is the number below your avatar in every log you have made? For me it looks like a smiley count.

Even this gamehobby is not about the find count, it is still pretty visible. If a player has public statistics opted out from the profile, this number is still visible - why?

It's good to be able to see the number of a person's finds, as it gives an idea of how experienced they are. Therefore if I am looking for a cache, or am a CO reading comments,  I would take more notice of a player with 20,000 finds against a player with 50 finds. It's also fun to be able to see how many caches a player has found.

[+kunarion]

48 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I have completed an adventure lab that has changed so much I've never been to any of the locations. None. 

Wow! 

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, kunarion said:

Once I’m at the spot, the answer is apparent, and multiple choice would be appreciated over a lot of typed guesses about the exact answer format about the number of posts (for example).  Or are some ALs more challenging?

 

If the intent of The App is to keep honest people honest, it does that.  It doesn’t prevent cheating. I guess TPTB are fine with that.

 

There's one location of mine that could possibly benefit from being changed to multi-choice, as there are two similar words that can describe the thing it's asking about, although no-one has mentioned having any trouble answering it. The rest are asking for a name, word or short phrase from a plaque or sign and ought to be unambiguous. Making those multi-choice would effectively eliminate the point of asking the question at all, since it would be easier to just guess than to find the thing the question's asking about.

 

10 hours ago, kunarion said:

Must "Five" be capitalized?  Nope, that didn't work.

 

If it's any help, AL answers are case-insensitive so if FIVE is the answer, so is five or even fivE.

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

There's one location of mine that could possibly benefit from being changed to multi-choice, as there are two similar words that can describe the thing it's asking about, although no-one has mentioned having any trouble answering it. The rest are asking for a name, word or short phrase from a plaque or sign and ought to be unambiguous. Making those multi-choice would effectively eliminate the point of asking the question at all, since it would be easier to just guess than to find the thing the question's asking about.

 

 

If it's any help, AL answers are case-insensitive so if FIVE is the answer, so is five or even fivE.

Unless the AL is a kind of puzzle to make it interesting (which I’ve yet to see), the answers should be trivial, something easy to discover because you went there.  But sure, if multiple choice, anyone could crack it… unless the App had the option of checking all the answers AFTER the final waypoint.  But preventing cheaters is not what I’m seeing in the App’s design intent.  I kind of wish it was on a par with an ordinary cache Find, but it seems… much looser.

 

And when there are 5 posts and I type five and 5 and both are wrong, I’m out of ideas already.  Is it a numeral? Is it a word?  Some other term for five?  Do I count the pillars and the flagpole?  Is that a hole where a post once was?  See, this is moment when I really empathize with my non-Geocaching family and friends.  They have a very good point.  
 

Edited December 21, 2021 by kunarion

[+Mausebiber]

15 hours ago, arisoft said:

Ok, can you explain what is the number below your avatar in every log you have made? For me it looks like a smiley count.

 

How many of those are AL?

[+Merlin1392]

This may be the thread for this question.  

Is it possible to "spoof" the answer to an Adventure?  I didn't think so, but a notorious "arm chair" cacher just completed my Adventure without attempting the bonus cache.  I specifically made this adventure a little more difficult with answers from the Adventure description and something you have to find at the Location.  No MC's, and stuff that Google Earth wouldn't display (I checked).  Their home location is about 3hours from my adventure.  So, it's possible they were there, but also very possible they weren't.  I know it's possible (or was) to get the questions to an Adventure, but to my knowledge it wasn't possible to get the answers, true?

Thanks! 

[+Max and 99]

16 minutes ago, Merlin1392 said:

This may be the thread for this question.  

Is it possible to "spoof" the answer to an Adventure?  I didn't think so, but a notorious "arm chair" cacher just completed my Adventure without attempting the bonus cache.  I specifically made this adventure a little more difficult with answers from the Adventure description and something you have to find at the Location.  No MC's, and stuff that Google Earth wouldn't display (I checked).  Their home location is about 3hours from my adventure.  So, it's possible they were there, but also very possible they weren't.  I know it's possible (or was) to get the questions to an Adventure, but to my knowledge it wasn't possible to get the answers, true?

Thanks! 

What you think is impossible others may find possible with enough searching. 

3 hours away is nothing! First to log is not the same as first to complete. I never claim first to complete unless I'm absolutely sure and usually check with the ALO. Only you can clarify those log claims. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Max and 99

[+arisoft]

59 minutes ago, Merlin1392 said:

Is it possible to "spoof" the answer to an Adventure?

 

As far as I know, the answer in the current version must be entered correctly, but there is no limit how many times and how fast one can try to guess the answer. For example, guessing a four digit number, may take only a fraction of a second with a suitable hardware.

 

1 hour ago, Merlin1392 said:

it wasn't possible to get the answers, true?

 

The design does not disclose the answer but it gives a hash code of the answer instead.

[+kunarion]

21 minutes ago, arisoft said:

but there is no limit how many times and how fast one can try to guess the answer. For example, guessing a four digit number, may take only a fraction of a second with a suitable hardware.

I can’t believe The App wouldn’t have some brute force protection.  At “100 guesses” or so, start popping up a “helpful tips” banner upon each additional guess.  At least that.

 

OK, sure, cheaters only hurt themselves.  But it would be fine with me if they were required to take a lot longer to hurt themselves.

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, Merlin1392 said:

 I know it's possible (or was) to get the questions to an Adventure, but to my knowledge it wasn't possible to get the answers, true?

 

There are other ways to obtain answers, like getting them from another player who's done it (and kept notes or photos of the answers) or perhaps even a muggle friend who lives close to the AL location.

 

1 hour ago, kunarion said:

I can’t believe The App wouldn’t have some brute force protection.  At “100 guesses” or so, start popping up a “helpful tips” banner upon each additional guess.  At least that.

 

As far as I know, the app has no limit to the number of quick-fire guesses you can make. On the very first AL I did, one of the questions was a "count the fenceposts" one at a lookout. I think I counted something like 27 but that was wrong, so I tried a few numbers either side of that but to no avail. Eventually in desperation I started from 1 and went up, hitting the "right" answer at 17. It turned out the CO couldn't read his own writing from his notes and had entered the wrong tens digit when setting it up. It was subsequently corrected, but all up I probably would have made at least 30 attempts before I got there.

 

Nowadays the preferred and default question type is multi-choice, where it takes at most four guesses to get it right. I would have thought a small time delay between attempts (maybe a couple of minutes) would have been a good idea to at least encourage people to look for the thing they're supposed to find before firing off their guesses, but nup, if you can drive within the geofence you don't even have to get out of your car.

Edited January 3, 2022 by barefootjeff
Spelling

[+kunarion]

38 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 I would have thought a small time delay between attempts (maybe a couple of minutes) would have been a good idea to at least encourage people to look for the thing they're supposed to find before firing off their guesses, but nup, if you can drive within the geofence you don't even have to get out of your car.

It’s OK that TPTB err on the side of allowing an unimpeded log entry.  And if it’s a choice between better features or making it slightly harder to make phony logs, I guess sure, I’d go with better features.  
 

But I have an AL credit, and one of the reasons I haven’t started it is, the part about contributing to the delinquency.   
 

Edited January 3, 2022 by kunarion

[+barefootjeff]

17 minutes ago, kunarion said:

It’s OK that TPTB err on the side of allowing an unimpeded log entry.  And if it’s a choice between better features or making it slightly harder to make phony logs, I guess sure, I’d go with better features.

 

If you get the answer right there's no impediment, my suggested time delay would only kick in if your first attempt at a multi-choice question is wrong. Maybe a short delay (say a minute) after the first wrong answer and a longer one after that. The way it is now, it's less effort to guess than it is to even read the question.

[+kunarion]

16 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

If you get the answer right there's no impediment, my suggested time delay would only kick in if your first attempt at a multi-choice question is wrong. Maybe a short delay (say a minute) after the first wrong answer and a longer one after that. The way it is now, it's less effort to guess than it is to even read the question.

I know.  I don’t mean that some cheat blocking is bad.  What I mean is that when Geocaching.com makes an App, it’s almost like the resulting App creates a half dozen identical Find logs in a row onto a cache page and now the system must ban multiple Find logs on the web site to prevent the App from doing that.  Almost. 
 

Not to put too fine a point on it, sometimes I’m OK with them making it at least work, and then leaving well enough alone. 

[+arisoft]

8 hours ago, kunarion said:

I can’t believe The App wouldn’t have some brute force protection.  At “100 guesses” or so, start popping up a “helpful tips” banner upon each additional guess.  At least that.

 

OK, sure, cheaters only hurt themselves.  But it would be fine with me if they were required to take a lot longer to hurt themselves.

 

The trend is towards even easier by offering multiple choise questions.

 

[+Merlin1392]

Thanks for the discussion.  I don't think the user would crack a hash code (grey matter issue).  They also didn't get the answers from the first and only player.  Neither did they contact one of my Beta testers.  These also aren't numbers because I don't like those easy answers.  Based on a subsequent comment, I'll assume on the good side, and they actually visited the AL.  Thanks all, Happy New Year!

[+Tungstène]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:37 PM, Merlin1392 said:

I don't think the user would crack a hash code (grey matter issue).  They also didn't get the answers from the first and only player.  Neither did they contact one of my Beta testers.  These also aren't numbers because I don't like those easy answers.

 

Could it be that the answer to the question is visible in the location journal (the one that appears once the correct answer has been given)? It turns out that the text and possible image of the journal is downloaded in advance by the application. It is therefore possible to take advantage of this to find the answer to be given.

 

The attached screenshot is an example. The answer to the question that was asked can be seen in the journal photo.(It was something along "what is the duration of a trip to XXXX according to the sign?")

 

[+Calcows]

People are so useless and lazy today.  When someone does an "armchair" find on my caches, the delete button gets an automatic pressing.

[+GeocacheMonster]

1 hour ago, Calcows said:

People are so useless and lazy today.  When someone does an "armchair" find on my caches, the delete button gets an automatic pressing.

You cant delete logs in lab caches.

[+JL_HSTRE]

With regard to AL Bonus Caches: I've placed 3 ALs and none have an associated bonus cache. I've skipped a number of Bonus Caches for ALs that I have found because the bonus was a difficult hide or at an inconvenient location (I'm traveling north but the bonus is a half mile drive south) or there are muggles at GZ. Logging an AL without logging the associated bonus isn't really suspicious.

 

ALs essentially give 5 smileys for 1 "cache". There are Virtuals and Earthcaches where it's also feasible to armchair log, but they're only 1 smiley for sometimes more than 5 questions, none of which are usually multiple choice. If you have no integrity ALs are absolutely the best way to cheat at geocaching.