Legalizing Geocaching in Boulder Open Space

[Guest jcharlesholt]

uggestion, our management staff will have a discussion about including more specific language pertaining to geocaching in our regulations. If you are interested in pursuing a public policy discussion, I suggest that you attend a meeting of our Parks and Open Space Advisory Committee, and bring this issue up under "discussion items not on the agenda". POSAC meets at 7 pm on the second Thursday of each month in the Commissioners' Hearing Room, second floor of the Boulder County Courthouse on the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder. Discussion of items not on the agenda is always close to the beginning of the agenda, at about 7:10 pm. Ultimately, the Board of County Commissioners make the decisions regarding legal activities.

 

I hope this helps answer your question. Please feel free to contact me with further questions or thoughts.

 

Sincerely,

 

Tina Nielsen

Boulder County Parks & Open Space

303-441-4958

tlnpa@co.boulder.co.us"

 

Before we approach them at their next meeting, I was thinking we should have an open forum discussion here to come up with guidelines that they might inact which would address their concerns about sensitive areas, while still allowing Geocachers to have their fun.

 

I'll kick it off with this:

1) All caches must be in plastic containers only.

2) Caches may not contain food items.

3) Caches can not be placed in such a manner as to modify the existing landscape, ie digging of holes, uprooting of plants, etc.

4) Caches should be located no more than 20' from any trail.

5) Caches must not be placed in any off-limits areas, or in areas that might disturb vegetation.

 

Those are my thoughts.. add to them, modify them... the more we can hammer this stuff out, the better it'll sound when we go in to the meeting and can show that we truly DO care about the environment and Open Space, and we can have our activity without negatively affecting other users.

 

I'll let BCPOS know about this discussion, and maybe if some of them could contribute (even in an unofficial anonymous capacity) we might be able to address their concerns better.

 

Go at it!

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

First off I want to thank the Boulder Parks service for a well thought and reasoned response. I really would love to have them in this forum to come up with a well thought out solution to this issue. It would really be a good idea to get their input because we could always create virtual caches that are perfectly legal, but are just as harmful in certain fragile environments.

 

Three things I would add/change to jcharlesholt's start. One I feel that 20 feet is a bit limiting. I would change it to say something like "within 20' if possible, but never over 50'.

 

Second it would be helpful if the park could provide an email address to send them questions and info about a placed cache, or a possible location for a cache. That way they could inform the owner of stuff that only they would know about, or perhaps a suggested move schedule.

 

It also might be good to have a suggested default move schedule so that a cache does not develop it's own new trail. This also makes the cache to easy, so we might want to have a default of a 3-month review. Or we could ask that each cache visitor respond with the current environment quality.

 

I would not have a problem with a fine for violating rules either, or even a small fee for placement (under $10).

 

[This message has been edited by dan_edwards_1966 (edited 24 September 2001).]

[Guest T-storm]

First thought, before I forget it, why only plastic containers? Around here it seems to me that many times the plastic containers get to the point that they do not seal properly. This either compromises the contents, or in some cases, lids are easily dislodged by critters or weather and leaves open the possibility that the contents will scatter, creating litter.

 

I would think that if these folks genuinely want to find a way to open their lands to geocaching while diligently protecting the assets, they will want some sort of process in place to inform them of caches hidden there. I think it benefits the relationship between us if folks have to get an advance permit, whether or not it is for a fee. That way the discussion about appropriate location or not can be had, concerns aired, with the seasonal closings noted in the cache, and maybe even an off season archiving of the cache can be planned.

 

I'm on board with the no food items, no modification, specifically no digging, and limitation of distance from trail. However, with the limitation of distance, maybe you should discuss with these folks what number belongs there instead of offering them anything. Let them tell you what they're thinking and decide how to respond instead of offering them something they may decide to argue with. I guess your number 5 is what I would prefer to address with requiring the cache hider to have a discussion with the authorities over each individual cache. It might wind up making things more flexible than specified rules that don't fit some cacher's dream hide beautifully!

 

Sorry to butt in from Texas, I'm just interested in the process of changing regulations to fit peoples' lives... I've done a lot of work with legalizing pet ferrets in Texas. I understand that may have gone awry in Boulder recently when they updated their animal codes and wrote something that would stand up in court as banning pet ferrets. But I digress...

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

Yea I have to agree with T-storm, I am much more in favor of the idea that contact on each cache is mandatory, but leaving everything else as guidelines. I would like to add that the process for contact should not be complicated. That would not be good for either Geocachers or Rangers. Just a short email discussion should be enough in most cases.

I think it is easy to say that 99% of geocachers want to make sure they do nothing to harm the environment. The only way to really do that is to have a discussion with someone "in the know" for the area. I think you will all agree that each cache is a very special case, and rules that would apply to one could be very detrimental to the environment for another. I think we are not only limiting the game, but also not doing our best to protect the environment. I bet if we asked, the rangers would know the really cool spots of the park that people rarely see, and I bet one of two of those spots would be appropriate for a cache.

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

One more thing, it might be a good idea to add a section to the Website that has links to parks with a process in place for Geocaching. That way Geocachers can quickly find out what they need to do, and where.

[Guest LoCache]

It's a great thing to try and get this done! I wish you luck with it. Some of us here in Georgia have created the GGA (Georgia Geocachers Association). Started out as a friendly gathering and quickly became an arganized group to tackle issues just like your situation. We are moving along well, and are actually having some success. If you would like more info or some ideas on how to proceed, please feel free to email me direct.

 

The main thing is, be polite and don't give up! If everyone can get Geocaching allowed in their local parks that don't allow it, we stand a good chance of getting enough support to have it approved in the NPS.

 

Thanks, and good luck!

Geo

 

here is our site...it's new and not yet developed, but keep checking back..we want it to be a resource for other organizations in the long run. Also, feel free to start the CGA ( Colorado Geocachers Association ). I think a sense of continuity amongst groups like ours will help everyone. To that end you are also welcome to fashion a logo after ours and I will gladly tell you what fonts and graphics to use!

 

http://www.ggaonline.org

[Guest s]

I agree with just about everything posted. I would like to add this: How about a Open Space / Park ranger accompany the person hiding the cache. That way, the park dept. knows where it is, knows whats going on, and can rectify any problems in the future. The person hiding it will leave contact info with the ranger in the event the cache has to be moved for any reason as stated in the Boulder County letter. Then all the cache hider has to do is relocate it and post the new coordinates on the web site.

Secondly, I like the use of a "Ammo can" they wont seem to crack or burst in sub-zero temperatures. Also, they should be in the color of the surrounding area, blend in with the country-side.

I am also VERY impressed with the "out-of-staters" that have expressed intrest in this local "problem". I am impressed with the whole geocaching hobby as well. There are a couple of us that have been planning another gettogether for the Colorado folks that missed the first picnic.

I believe that the City and County of Boulder, will welcome geocachers more in the future after they meet and understand the hobby. They need to visit this site as well as go on a cache hunt with their family.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks for the time.

 

Steve Nelson

Westminster CO

 

------------------

The Nelsons from Colorado

 

[This message has been edited by the nelson's (edited 27 September 2001).]

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

Ok, quoting the first message from the parks spokesperson...

 

POSAC meets at 7 pm on the second Thursday of each month in the Commissioners' Hearing Room, second floor of the Boulder County Courthouse on the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder

 

That makes the meeting this Thursday, October 11th. I am currently planning on attending and I was wondering if anyone else is planning on going. I am really curious if someone from Boulder County was planning on attending. I'm not sure if the weight of someone from Larimer County would hold as much weight as someone speaking from Boulder County. I would be more then happy to help someone put together something to say. I am much better at writing then I am at speaking so it would be great if someone who likes to speak, spoke up.

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

Possible Speech. Here is a rough draft I banged out.

 

Greetings,

 

I wanted to speak to you today about working to open up Boulder County Parks and Open Space to the new family activity known as GeoCaching. GeoCaching involves a person hiding a "Cache" or "Stash" of inexpensive items in a place they think would be interesting for others to visit. Sometimes the place is chosen because of both it's beauty and it's a place unknown to others. The exact latitude and longitude are posted on a web site and others can use a GPS receiver to find the cache. Usually there is a logbook and a camera to record your visit, and you can trade items in the cache.

 

Recently a "Cache" was placed on Boulder Parks property and the parks service immediately demanded its removal, and said that all caches would be declared trash. This is very short sited because this activity is becoming very popular, very fast. I can understand the parks service concerns about people just walking all over public without direction, but without any kind of process in place to work with the parks service, what choice does the public have? Stories about GeoCaching both in the paper and television have helped this game to explode in popularity. On the 21st of this month another story will come out in the Coloradoan, only causing more people to take up this activity. Without a process from the parks service on how to place caches, people will be left to stumble on their own. If the Boulder Parks were to open land for Geocaching, and put out a set of guidelines for people to follow, this could be a real opportunity for the Boulder Parks service to set an example for the rest of the country on how to manage land for both fun and preservation. The two do not have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[This message has been edited by dan_edwards_1966 (edited 09 October 2001).]

[Guest jcharlesholt]

Overall, I think it's a good message, but I do wonder whether "game" is the best word to use. It makes it sound fairly trivial and childish (which I suppose it is). How about recreation or sport?

 

I was very much hoping to attend this meeting, but unfortunately a project at work is going to preclude my attending. If no one goes this time around, I'd hope we can get a group of at least 3 people together for the next meeting.

[Guest jcharlesholt]

Overall, I think it's a good message, but I do wonder whether "game" is the best word to use. It makes it sound fairly trivial and childish (which I suppose it is). How about recreation or sport?

 

I was very much hoping to attend this meeting, but unfortunately a project at work is going to preclude my attending. If no one goes this time around, I'd hope we can get a group of at least 3 people together for the next meeting.

[Guest LoCache]

py to do so!

 

Geo

http://www.ggaonline.org

 

[This message has been edited by LoCache (edited 09 October 2001).]

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

Thanks for the input. If you look at the speech message you will see I changed it to take into account the messages posted. I also noticed that I did not state what I really wanted to have happen. So a added a sentence to clarify that. Please, PLEASE continue to give your input.

 

[This message has been edited by dan_edwards_1966 (edited 09 October 2001).]

[Guest jcharlesholt]

I gather some other groups have been fighting the same battle. Have any of them been successful? Would it be possible to maybe get some information on what sort of compromises/rules they came to with their local communities to facilitate Geocaching?

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

There is the one web site listed by LoCache, but overall any time a agency has come down against this activity, they are very negitive about it and do not seam to wish to develope any kind of process. I have not read about too much success stories, but I have not really seen a lot negative activity either. Considering the number of caches in the world, the rate is pretty good. But with the number of people playing the game, it would be nice to have some direction on how best to preserve our parks and use them for the enjoyment of all.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jcharlesholt:

I gather some other groups have been fighting the same battle. Have any of them been successful? Would it be possible to maybe get some information on what sort of compromises/rules they came to with their local communities to facilitate Geocaching?

---

[Guest LoCache]

I will be happy to post our progress here for your aid. We are still in the midst of our issues, but I can say that the Georgia State Parks (who flat out banned it in their lands) have been very receptive to us and actually want to accomodate us if we can address their concerns. That's actually WHY we formed the GGA. They were the first in the south...not likely the last....to say no geocaching.

 

Anyhow, we wrote them a very polite letter telling them about the activity and asking that we be able to meet with them and find out what to do to get the activity allowed, and they were very nice. The head of the parks service and the ranger for the park we met at (where one of the caches was found) actually offered to come to our meeting and speak. They stayed for the whole thing, including that which didn't concern them and were very interested. We are waiting to hear from them on our proposal now. I will let you know how it goes.

 

One thing I would strongly recommend is not just focusing on the ones that WON'T allow geocaching...find some parks areas that will actually welcome geocaching! We found a county parks system that actually invited us to geocache and use their facilities for meetings and all they want in return is for us to teach at some events of theirs and show other people how to Geocache! How's THAT for a WIN WIN situation!??!?!? ;-) And their lands are some of the most fun areas in our metro area! If you get support from a couple of parks systems around you, then you can use that as leverage in dealing with the other parks. And it is important that they "officially" allow it...meaning you can tell people they allow it. An "unwritten" permission doesn't do a whole lot of good.

 

Anyhow, good luck to you, and please feel free to contact me directly for more advice. We have some talented people on the Steering committee for the GGA that do nothing but craft "carefully" worded letters and such for just this type of thing.

 

Best of luck!

Geo

http://www.geopolitan.net/geotrex

http://www.ggaonline.org

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

I am thinking three things. One is that we need more time to prepare what we want to say, it looks like others can't make this Thursdays meeting, and it looks like I will not be able to make this months meeting. I am thinking of making Novembers meeting a event cache so that we can start planing for it now.

 

Thoughts?

[Guest jcharlesholt]

I tend to agree. I think we need to really all be confident in what we're going to say, and I also think it would be important to get a number of geocachers to show up at the meeting to give BCPOS an idea of how many people are really interested in this matter.

 

I gather that there was a Colorado Geocachers meeting just a few weeks ago... how many people attended? If we could get most of those people to show up at the BCPOS meeting as well, it would certainly help.

[Guest k0fcc]

In case you missed this in my cache description: Longmont Parks are fair game!!

 

-----

 

I checked with Longmont Parks Division. As long as it's 'environmentally friendly' we are allowed to stash caches in their parks but we must have prior permission. Permission is obtained by contacting the Parks Director (Don Bessler) and requesting approval. We must provide the GPS coordinates, written location description, and a description of the cache.

 

[This message has been edited by k0fcc (edited 02 November 2001).]

[Guest kd7mxi]

<>

 

------------------

"GET YOUR KICKS ON ROUTE 93" ~~~KD7MXI

[Guest eukaryote]

hello geocachers...

 

i would like to say that i think the reason geocaching should be prohibted in open space (and: Wilderness Areas, National Forests, National Monuments, State Parks, Wildlife Refuges etc.) is that it leads to erosion, wildlife disturbance, creation of new unmaintained trail systems, and general infiltration of already over-crowded open space with more humanoids. We all know that, despite your good intentions with the rules-of-geocaching, that there will be plenty of folks who break the rules. also, rule #5...by placing a cache 20 ft from an existing trail, this is going to create a human 'game trail' to that cache, leading other humanoids that direction out of curiosity. i suspect that most geocachers love the outdoors. if that is so, why this type of adverse and unregulated pressure? i would like to suggest that geocachers only place caches ON maintained trail systems (not off trail) or at roadway rest stops, malls, gas stations, and cafes like the Trident or Starbucks. In this way you can walk run ride drive get outside and in and have a latte while still having fun with gps technology (which i enjoy myself) This would also solve the problems associated with habitat over-use and abuse (lets not love it to death). the burden of proof (that there is an adverse effect from this type of activity) should be on the geocachers themselves. if and when (if ever) it is shown to have no (nil, zilch, none, nada) adverse effects on the ecosystems involved, then have at it. otherwise, i say keep it out of what's left of the wildness.

 

thanks for your time and consideration.

 

~eukaryote

[Guest breaktrack]

You're kidding, right? Surely you are not advocating that because we have a few members that might not follow the rules, then no one should Geocache in wilderness areas? If that is what you are advocating, then you should not be in a wilderness area either. No one should. We should stay out of all wilderness or pristine areas altogether, and while we're at it, return all areas that are not now wilderness or pristine to their original state, because that's how they were at one time, right? Let me know when we get around to knocking down the cities and tearing up the highway system just before we all move back overseas where the majority of us came from, I want to reserve my place on the last boat now, why wait for the rush? Please get a life, compromise is how things get done, and there is a LOT of room for compromise in this issue. Just making a blanket statement that geocaching is detrimental to the environment is just as bad as making stereotypical racial statements. It's just unnecessary and simply instigates emotions and feelings that are not helpful to the discussion. For instance, it inspires me to sarcasm... LOL. Lets take "real life" into consideration when we talk about how to minimize impact, not eliminate exposure, to the environment, shall we?

 

------------------

Single dad looking for, dang, what the heck was I looking for again??? Where's my GPS?

[Guest geospotter]

Authorities want facts and figures to support your point. In our area a cache is lucky to get a dozen or so hits. This, of course, has little or no effect on the environment.

 

Look at the number of finds for caches in your area. If only a couple dozen people visit a cache each year, make sure the authorities know this. They are likely to envision hundreds of geocachers pouring into their parks each weekend. Make sure they know that this is not the case.

 

Also, keep referring to it as "recreation".

 

And "Good Luck". It is through efforts like your's that this "family activity" will prosper.

 

[This message has been edited by geospotter (edited 03 December 2001).]

[Guest eukaryote]

ok, i admit to a bit of emotion and sarcasm too. as an experiment i searched (and found) a cache. i was looking to see where it was placed in relation to trails, potential/actual wildlife corridors, breeding bird habitat, and type and amount of recreational use in the area. the cache seemed well hidden (at least to me) and i found that in order to find it i was bushwhacking all over the area. the accuracy of my gps was reading anywhere from 8 to 26 meters depending on where i was...so, my point is, even if the number of hits at a given cache is relatively low, at certain times of the year those hits could have dire consequences for the critters that also share the land near the cache. as for the comment on compromise, you hit the nail on the head. compromise is what has lead us into the quagmire of the human caused sixth extinction episode (fact, not fiction). the land you suggest we compromise about is a mere fragment of what is necessary to maintain biodiversity (which is not a catch-phrase, but the very foundation upon which we all depend) and has been compromised to pieces. what we all see today is a landscape that is full of edges, fragmented, routed with roads (roadblocks for dispersal for critters), overused and sorely in need of a break. i do not advocate tearing down the cities or trying to put it back to what it once was--we can't (where would we return it to anyway? 1600's a thousand years ago?). what is important is that we let the necessary ecological processes take place. yes, humans belong here to, but not everywhere all the time. we can and should base our actions (recreational/industrial) on sound ecological principles and what is currently known about human impacts on biosystems. we should drop the defensive justifications--it's a "family activity" and "has little or no effect on the environment"--and consider what we do beyond our own immediate gratification. what we do know is that recreational activities, even small ones, can have significant effects on plant distribution and wildlife behavior and reproduction. this is an important discussion even if it started via a bit of sarcasm. the land around us is changing, and it's changing fast. to understand the processes and issues better, everyone should consider taking a college level ecology class... the defenseless are always considered last when it comes to compromise and in this case, like many others, the natural world has no voice. there are only so many slices to this pie and lots of hungry mouths--somebody will eventually have to go hungry.

 

comments?

 

~eukaryote

[Guest geospotter]

e see today for as long as those woods have been in existence (the current woods, not prehistoric ones). As a matter of fact, I happen to live near the Mohawk Trail here in Massachusetts. (Those dadgum Mohawks and their social trails!)

 

I do NOT advocate destroying natural habitats, no geocachers do. In fact, most cachers love the woods/desert/etc. and are probably more environmentally aware than most people. Even you must admit that any minor destruction done by a small number of geocachers will have little effect on the environment. Come back to the same spot in five years and all social trails to a cache site will have disappeared (except for those dadgum deer trails).

 

Also, your geocaching skills will improve and you will do less and less bushwhacking.

 

Now, if millions of people start geocaching, then you might have a point, but as of today there are only about 2500 registered cachers WORLDWIDE (hardly a threat).

 

(Sarcasm turned off now.)

[Guest TJCrebs]

Hi all, sorry for the late post, but just found this discussion board.

 

1) What is the present status of the Boulder Open Space geocache "legalization" process?

 

2) I ran into similar geocache concerns in Jefferson County Open Space with my Dinosaur Ridge geocache--I reported my cache to the local ranger, and thought everything was OK. Only later after I had archived the stash did I learn that the ranger had no authorization/juristiction for the placing of stashes in Jefferson County Open Space lands.

 

3) Like it or not, geocachers can and do make an impact at our most popular cache sites. I shut down mine as it had 258 logged hits in 365 days. Mine was within about 15 meters of a trail, and had two new discernable "paths" which were becoming evident after twelve months. However, 4 weeks after I removed the stash, I doubt that anyone can see either "path" anymore. Conclusion, Mother Nature heals herself pretty quickly. This former geocache site already appears "pristine" to my eyes.

 

4) I put my cache in a see-thru plastic RubberMaid container so as to mitigate any potential "booby-trap" to be placed in the stash--(almost a year before 11-Sept, many of us were concerned about domestic terrorism, too.) I always visually check any cache before opening it--don't open anything that looks, smells, sounds, or feels suspicious.

 

5) Finally, here's another way to get our geocache message out. Become an Open Space Volunteer. Open Space Volunteers are needed for outdoor safety, security, museum, habitat, trail-maintenence, etc. Geocachers can volunteer for a few hours a month, and show Open Space authorities we are not the insensitive "ogres" that some may believe. I'm a volunteer for the Jeffco OS Raptor Watch program; volunteers with GPS experience can be very helpful to any outdoor organization. AND, OS people appear much more sympathetic to geocaching Volunteers when they hear we haul trash from designated trails and parking areas.

 

6) Focus on the positive traits of geocaching and geocachers--our detractors will always bring up our sport's impact on delicate habitat or ecosystems. Be flexible and try to compromise when discussing geocaching with Open Space officials. We are taxpayers too, and also "own" our Open Space lands too.

 

Best Regards,

Terry J. Crebs

Lakewood, CO

[Guest jcharlesholt]

Ironically, the Dinosaur Ridge site was the first Geocache site I visited (I was the first one to visit it after September 11th). I'm sorry to hear it was removed, as it was a beautiful spot for a cache.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't done any Geocaching since this incident, partly because of work and partly because of my frustration at finding that, while people are allowed to visit my favorite places and litter them with fishing gear, trash, dog waste, etc., that I am unable to deposit a hidden item which (hopefully) only those searching for will ever find.

 

Still, I understand some of the concerns people have been raising here, and I've got a few new ideas:

 

1. "Natural" caches. No depositing of anything man-made, but the cache is marked maybe by a small cairn of stones, or by some fallen branches placed in such a way as to be evident. Still, we lose the log book which is a very important part of the experience, and it also seems as if the stuff itself isn't the primary concern, which leads me to...

 

2. Trails to the caches would be minimized if they were moved every 6 months/year. This creates some hassles as far as updating the listings, but as it stands now it's better than no listings at all.

 

- J. Charles Holt

[Guest TJCrebs]

Thanx for the nice comments about Dinosaur Ridge, Mr. Holt. Hopefully, you got to see the Buddhist Prayer Flags put up near the stash (for a week) after 11-Sept--they were beautiful and spiritual too.

 

I bring up the prayer flags to document the point that county Open Space lands are multiple use, and that recreation is only one of their uses.

 

My recommendation here is don't get discouraged by the apparent insensitivity of Boulder's Open Space officials. They are trying to juggle "usage" as best they can--offer to help them, and they will give all geocachers a more sympathetic ear.

 

Your recommendations are good. I like your natural cache idea. I also believe that all geocaches should be archived -- the owner should decide when is appropriate. FYI, I had a nice archiving party and supplied the champagne--all geocachers were invited to the archiving party.

 

Event caches for archiving can be a lot of fun, too.

 

Good Luck & Best Regards,

Terry J. Crebs

Lakewood, CO

[Guest JMaxamillion]

how bout caches need to be maintained every x weeks/months so that they do not become trash

 

MAX

[Guest T-storm]

In case it would be of any assistance to folks seeking permission to place a cache, you can see a letter and other documentation I submitted to obtain permission to place a cache on land administered by the Army Corps of Engineers in this thread:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001580.html

 

I received a nifty printed and signed permit for my trouble.

 

T-storm

 

------------------

http://www.cordianet.com/geocaching

[Guest blinddog]

TJ Crebs, What a bummer on the Dinosaur Ridge Cache. That was my family's first cache.I still use the photo from your web site as wallpaper on my computer at work.I always wondered how you got permission from Jeffco.Guess not.What about Deer Creek??

[Guest TeamDragon]

I'm a geocacher. I've discovered a number of Open Space parks and trails that I never would have visited if it weren't for geocaching. Having said that, I understand how the Open Space people could make their decision and I can mostly agree with it even.

 

The rule in the Open Space parks is Stay On The Trail. A bunch of geocachers bushwhacking off-trail is no more approraite then a bunch of mountain bikers creating their own path. When geocachers say things like "However, 4 weeks after I removed the stash, I doubt that anyone can see either 'path' anymore" (sorry to pick on you and your great site TJ), it totally misses the point. You're not supposed to be creating trails on your own. Period. Doesn't matter what for or that the path will heal itself. It's just not done in our Open Space Parks.

 

We've all been to caches that were placed in very bad spots (Green Mountain #1), and/or that started to create new trails to their location. The Parks Department is going to complain about that and rightfully so.

 

The people who suggest a Park Ranger accompany you or that you give them contact info for your cache are being silly. The Parks Department does not have the time to do that.

 

If you want to get the Parks department to allow Geocaching then we're going to have to create some very specific guidelines for geocaches in Open Space (not for all geocaching necessarily, just in the open space) that addresses thier concerns:

 

1) No off-trail caches. Not 50 feet, not 20 feet. 0 feet. A cache can be hidden perfectly well behind a tree or under a bush right next to the trail. No one is supposed to be off-trail. They won't and shouldn't make exceptions for us.

2) No food.

3) Automatic retiring of caches after X visitors OR Y months whichever comes first. This helps guarantee that human trails are not going to form or that an area is going to be overused.

4) Self-policing. And I'd guess this might be a big issue for the Parks Department. We need to start cleaning up after ourselves. If you visit a cache and it's in an inapproriate spot or a trail is forming, you retire that cache yourself.

 

All of those rules are designed to do one thing: Make sure geogaching is done within the rules that the Open Space Parks have established. If we do things by the rules and if we clean-up any problems ourselves, then they are going to be much more receptive to our recreation.

[Guest dan_edwards_1966]

TeamDragon,

 

I am glad you spoke up, you message really made me think. I agree with all your points except the Off Trail and Automatic retirement.

 

I feel it is a perfectly valid use of land to do something that might make a temporary trail. As long as when the cache is removed the land reverts back to its natural state, then I think that is a great use of public land. Something that takes something away from future generations never to be returned is unacceptable.

 

I think the geocaching community does a pretty good job of giving feedback about the status of a cache loction, but I would love offical thought and feedback on first placement. I think most people are afraid to ask because they already know the answer will be "we don't understand this, so NO". Sadly, that thought is mostly correct.

 

Dan

[Guest TeamDragon]

>> I feel it is a perfectly valid use of land to do something that might make a temporary trail.

 

If by "land" you mean the Open Spaces, the Parks departments vehemently disagrees with you. By your logic, mountain bikers can ride whereever they want, SUV owners could drive in the parks, etc. Rule #1 in the parks is stay on the trails. We'll never convince Parks to change that and they shouldn't.

 

>> Something that takes something away from future generations never to be returned is unacceptable.

 

The Parks departments will argue that it is unacceptable for one group of park users to decide that the rules don't apply to them and they can do whatever they want which is what us geocachers are doing.

 

By your logic again, mountain bikers can go wherever they want, SUV owners can mud-bog in the fields, etc. The rules are there for a good reason and we should be abiding by them, not trying to get the Parks deparments to change the rules for us.

 

>> I would love offical thought and feedback on first placement

 

Not going to happen. The Parks department does not have the manpower to review every cache that is placed. This argument is not going to accomplish anything.

 

If most geocachers think like you (breaking the rules is OK) -- and from the posts here and some of the caches I've visited they do -- then it is no wonder that Boulder Parks has outlawed this activity. If we continue our current behavior, it's only a matter of time before other Parks follow suit.

 

If we want the Open Spaces to stay open to geocaching then we have to learn to live within the rules the Parks set. I outlined some ideas on how we might do this. If other people have suggestions, I'd like to hear them.

 

If your argument is "let's get Parks to change their #1 rule" then I wish you luck but I don't think you'll succeed.

[Guest TJCrebs]

e, probably because in many Open Space lands cattle are allowed to graze and cattle make their own trails to troughs, salt licks, etc. (See Section 5.84.13).

 

Your argument about SUV's doesn't apply either as no motorized vehicles are allowed (Section 5.84.9).

 

I agree it's always best to establish a geocache as close to an existing trail as possible, but even by your example of a cache hidden behind a tree is also "off trail" by your proposed "zero-foot" from trail criteria.

 

I think common sense should apply to establishing and archiving all caches. Birders, photographers, rock-climbers, naturalists, geologists, teachers, and others who also use and enjoy our Open Space lands do not always stay on the trails--I think that's also why no trail rule exists.

 

Nevertheless, I agree with you that we should monitor and minimize our impact on our Open Space lands. I think we need to work with our Open Space officials and administrators to make sure that all geocachers do follow all of the the rules and regulations.

 

Regards, T.

 

------------------

Terry J. Crebs

Lakewood, CO USA

[Guest TeamDragon]

>> I don't want to pick on you either, BUT I can find NO "stay on the trail" RULE

 

Egads, you're right. Guess I'm guilty of some gross exaggeration. The rules for JeffCo Open Space are at http://ww2.co.jefferson.co.us/ext/dpt/comm_res/openspac/rules01.doc for those of you playing at home.

 

The rules do say that we have to obey the signs and seems to me that most of the parks have "Please Stay On The Trail" signs. Maybe I'm exaggerating again though.

 

So just to get it out of the way, I was wrong, wrong, WRONG.

 

Are you suggesting, TJ, that the various parks departments aren't concerned with social trails and my thoughts are in left field?

 

I think they are concerned with social trails ("We would be concerned if a cache were to become enough of an attraction to start creating social trails." from the letter above) and that my comments, minus my hyperbole, are still valid.

[Guest TJCrebs]

>>Are you suggesting, TJ, that the various parks departments aren't concerned with social trails and my thoughts are in left field?<<

 

Nah, TD, I think we're in general agreement.

 

Social trails are a big concern of mine too--I shut down "Dino Ridge" because I began to perceive two social trails around the outcrop to our cache.

 

I like your recommendation of archiving a cache after X amount of time or Y amount of logged visits. For our cache: X=1year+1day; and Y=258. Maybe I should have shut down the cache earlier--if you like "I may have been WRONG" about the archive timing too.

 

I think we should obey all Open Space rules and mimimize our impact and be good stewards of our Open Space lands.

 

Regards, T.

 

P.S. I'm a little worried about the upcoming 9-Mar "Colorado Cache Dash"--in light of our discussions, I hope Case received Open Space permission for this upcoming "Event Cache" with prizes for cache finding and trash pickup. I hope I'm not sounding like a "Geo-Nanny".

 

------------------

Terry J. Crebs

Lakewood, CO USA

[Guest TJCrebs]

Great job, T-Storm.

 

Your request letter to the Army was well written and nicely summarized geocaching and what we as geocachers do.

 

Have you forwarded your letter on to Jeremy Irish? I think Jeremy (e.g., Geocaching's webmaster) would enjoy reading about your success in Texas.

 

I agree with Max's suggestion above, too.

Our Dinosaur Ridge geocache was vandalized in March-2001; after that incident, I began checking the cache every Friday afternoon after work, and hauled out any and all trash within a kilometer of the stash's location.

 

I think the popularity and amount of traffic to a cache should determine how often it is checked. What doesn't help the sport , IMHO, are any geocaches that are established and never checked nor maintained.

 

Regards,

Terry J. Crebs

Lakewood, CO

[Eoghan]

I'm moving to Denver in a few weeks and wanted to see if I could find out the latest info on where caching is and is not allowed.

What is the most recent policy re: Boulder and Jefferson Co. OS parks? Do they both have blanket prohibitions? Has anyone tried applying for a Special Activity Permit to see what response they received? I tried to follow the Jefferson Co. link above but it's broken.

Any help would be appreciated. It just won't seem like home til I've found and placed caches within a few miles of where I live.

[+Ttepee]

Eoghan,

 

Try this out http://ww2.co.jefferson.co.us/ext/dpt/comm_res/openspac/rules.htm

[+The Treasurer]

I've recently got in touch with a Jefferson County Ranger that wants me to show him EXACTLY where I intend to place a geocache. I got the e-mail address from the Jeff CO Open Space website. I made sure I sent a detailed letter, maps and pictures.

 

I sent the first e-mail on the 30th of March and a second one on April 9th, just in case they didn't get the first one. On April 11th, a Ranger called me to ask if we could meet at the park.

 

The ranger said that if, in his opinion, the cache and the visitors to it do not make a dramatically adverse impact on the park no Special Activity Permit would be needed. I guess his interpretation of adverse impact will probably be different from 99% of everyone elses, but he has final say.

 

Don't know about Boulder County, though.

[+Dan_Edwards]

Still that is a reasonable request, and it is nice to see them helping geocachers place caches that don't do any harm.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Treasurer:

I've recently got in touch with a Jefferson County Ranger that wants me to show him EXACTLY where I intend to place a geocache. I got the e-mail address from the Jeff CO Open Space website. I made sure I sent a detailed letter, maps and pictures.

 

I sent the first e-mail on the 30th of March and a second one on April 9th, just in case they didn't get the first one. On April 11th, a Ranger called me to ask if we could meet at the park.

 

The ranger said that if, in his opinion, the cache and the visitors to it do not make a dramatically adverse impact on the park no Special Activity Permit would be needed. I guess his interpretation of adverse impact will probably be different from 99% of everyone elses, but he has final say.

 

Don't know about Boulder County, though.

---