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NO Geocaches in Colorado Springs


pazuzuprime
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The city of Colo Spgs sent me the following e-mail today

 

Dear Mr. Ketterer III,

Thank you for writing your concerns. I am responding on behalf of

the Parks, Recreation & Cultural Services Department. Being employees of

the Parks, Recreation & Cultural Services Department, it is our job to make

sure that everyone who enters a park or open space is going to be as safe as

possible. Parks, Recreation & Cultural Services Department has implemented

guidelines to try and work with geocachers without "outlawing" the sport

completely. Geocaches do pose a potential hazard that, quite frankly, can

be eliminated by prohibiting them. This is due to the liability the City

has in regards to the nature of geocaches (or any closed container left in a

park or open space). The liability comes from the fact that the City cannot

guarantee the safety of enclosed containers that are left within our park

system. Granted, when the cache is placed initially, the contents are safe.

Once the coordinates are posted in a public forum, anyone has access to the

cache, and could put anything in the cache they wish. If a person put a

harmful substance in a cache, and the next cacher was injured, the City

could be liable if a lawsuit were filed. (The same holds true for any

closed container left in a park: If an abandoned cooler was found on a

picnic table, could another person assume that is was safe to open?) Please

keep in mind that even frivolous lawsuits filed against the City require

your tax dollars be spent in dealing with the lawsuit.

 

Staff members met with a representative from a local geocache team and came

up with some "Geocaching Guidelines" that we feel will still accommodate

geocaching, and at the same time, limit the City's liability:

 

1) Virtual caches are allowed. We only ask that the coordinates that are

posted for virtual caches be on designated trails. 2) Tags or small markers with coordinates are allowed. Using a public park

as part of a multi-cache is a great way to see the park, and still get the

"reward" at the end by finding a cache on property where caches are allowed.

We again ask that the tag be located on a designated trail within the park

or open space, and please do not nail, staple or tack the tag to trees.

 

3) Geocache "events" are allowed, as long as the caches are placed prior to

the event (on the same day), removed after the event (same day), and the

event is supervised by a team. This scenario limits the ability of an

outside person to come in a tamper with the caches, and thus minimizes the

city's liability.

 

4) Containers are not allowed. This includes ammo cans, tupperware, 35mm

film containers, etc.

 

The only park that is closed completely to geocaching is Garden Of The Gods

Park. This is due primarily to the extremely sensitive soils in the Garden.

Several studies in the last five years have determined that there are 17

miles of designated trails, and an additional 34 miles of social trails.

Many of the social trails have become drainage-ways that turn into major

drainage issues. These areas then take money and staff time to repair.

With 1.7 million visitors a year, the Garden is the most difficult park to

manage as it is, without adding additional off-trail traffic. Scott Thompson

Senior GIS Analyst

 

Here is the e-mail that my friend lullabud sent back to them

 

george forwarded your e-mail to me because he thought it would be something i'd like to see, and i guess it wasn't something i'd "like" to see but i'm glad he did anyhow. i think the geocaching rules that colorado springs is enforcing are absurd. absolutely ludicrous. do you actually think you're protecting people by not allowing people to put containers, even 35mm cannisters, in public places?? do you think somebody who's going to blow somebody up is going to care?? i'm sure you're thinking that by not attracting people to some remote, beautiful place, at most a few times a day, you're potentially saving their lives but if that's the case you're clearly ignorant of the reality of it. most caches i've been to get less than group a day, which is typically 2 people, give or take. to favor on your side we could say that even up to 20 people a day visit a cache, though this is clearly not the case. even so, by not allowing a BOX to be there you think you're protecting them?? from what?? a booby trap that somebody could just as easily string across the trail to catch geocachers, bikers, hikers and anything else that happens to pass by as well?? you say that the city cannot guarantee the safety of enclosed containers, but quite frankly you can't guarantee any safety at all. you cannot GUARANTEE it, at all, ever. and by preventing boxes and containers from being placed in remote locations you're far from protecting the masses. you happen to be "protecting" a huge minority of people who have a sport that is scarecly known. why don't you tell children that they can't play basketball because you can't guarantee that there isn't an explosive inside the ball since you can't see inside it?? then you'd at least be protecting a larger group of people. i just want everybody involved in this to know that by enforcing the rules you have set up you ARE NOT making the world 1 bit safer, in the slightest, whatsoever, you're just pissing some people off and causing a scene in a sport that was once an innocent game, and now has to abide by the legal restraints of the infinite possibilities of liability... i think i'll go fall off the pulpit rock virtual cache so i can sue the government for not putting up handrails.......

 

What do you guys think...

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I thought the city of Colorado Springs explained their reasoning for limiting caching quite clearly. While we may not like their ultimate decison I believe it to be more than fair and should be viewed as an acceptable compromise.

 

I also thought lullabud's response was immature and bad for geocaching. Such a response will not alter the city's stance on geocaching one iota except perhaps to make them ban it altogether in their parks. Insulting them will gain you nothing.

 

Just my two cents worth since you asked.

 

CheesyD

 

"Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they shall inherit the earth."

--Monty Python's The Life of Brian

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I don't think that lullabuds reply was overly insulting...This is an incredably stupid and worthless ruling on the part of the parks and rec dept and lull brought up some very good points those of you that cannot see it must be blind. We may fight a losing battle against the park and rec but some of us choose to fight anyways. Those of you that choose to roll over and let the "man" have their way with you may thank us in the future for our willingness to fight for a activity that we love. It is not wrong to show outrage and dismay at something that you feel is unfair no matter what anyone says....

 

PazuzuPrime icon_mad.gif

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I don't think that lullabuds reply was overly insulting...This is an incredably stupid and worthless ruling on the part of the parks and rec dept and lull brought up some very good points those of you that cannot see it must be blind. We may fight a losing battle against the park and rec but some of us choose to fight anyways. Those of you that choose to roll over and let the "man" have their way with you may thank us in the future for our willingness to fight for a activity that we love. It is not wrong to show outrage and dismay at something that you feel is unfair no matter what anyone says....

 

PazuzuPrime icon_mad.gif

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After that email he sent I just bet things get worse for you caching folks in Colorado Springs. What ashamed that email was sent, it could have a negative effect on more than just your community. As stated before you may not like it, but it was a compromise. You just might have to drive a little futher away fromhome to do your caching. Hope the situation does not get worse out there, and it can.

 

Pepper

Bay Area, CA

 

Horizontals where it's at!

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quote:
We may fight a losing battle against the park and rec but some of us choose to fight anyways. Those of you that choose to roll over and let the "man" have their way with you may thank us in the future for our willingness to fight for a activity that we love. It is not wrong to show outrage and dismay at something that you feel is unfair no matter what anyone says....

 

Um, OK. The city responded in a clear, thoughtful manner and resolved the issue in a way that was fair and workable to both sides. You seem to be ignoring the city's legal position. In this world of daily moronic lawsuits the scenario the city laid out is almost sure to happen. If the city gets sued and loses they have to pay the winner of the lawsuit. There goes funding for the park and could result in the park's closure. A long shot scenario to be sure but in this day and age anything can happen. If mature compromise is viewed by you as "giving in to the man" ( icon_confused.gif )then I'm afraid life is going to be full of disappointments for you.

 

I feel safe in saying Colorado is big enough that you can find a suitable place for your cache if you're not happy with the park's ruling.

 

You have a nice day now, ya hear!

 

CheesyD

 

"Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they shall inherit the earth."

--Monty Python's The Life of Brian

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quote:
We may fight a losing battle against the park and rec but some of us choose to fight anyways. Those of you that choose to roll over and let the "man" have their way with you may thank us in the future for our willingness to fight for a activity that we love. It is not wrong to show outrage and dismay at something that you feel is unfair no matter what anyone says....

 

Um, OK. The city responded in a clear, thoughtful manner and resolved the issue in a way that was fair and workable to both sides. You seem to be ignoring the city's legal position. In this world of daily moronic lawsuits the scenario the city laid out is almost sure to happen. If the city gets sued and loses they have to pay the winner of the lawsuit. There goes funding for the park and could result in the park's closure. A long shot scenario to be sure but in this day and age anything can happen. If mature compromise is viewed by you as "giving in to the man" ( icon_confused.gif )then I'm afraid life is going to be full of disappointments for you.

 

I feel safe in saying Colorado is big enough that you can find a suitable place for your cache if you're not happy with the park's ruling.

 

You have a nice day now, ya hear!

 

CheesyD

 

"Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they shall inherit the earth."

--Monty Python's The Life of Brian

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Compromise certainly on matters of relevance. I have no problem with that. This is Geocaching this is nothing, this is recreation and they are trying to take the heart, a huge part of geocaching away from us argueably the largest part "finding the treasure". The cache if you will. Whats in it is not important and if someone wants to hurt you then they will find some way to do it with caches or not. Look at your mailbox it could be booby trapped everyday that you open it but you still look in it. It's just as random and unlikely as a geocache. It's even more likely to be trapped as recently seen, but no one is advocating the removal of mailboxes. Why not? What about all the garbage cans in the parks couldn't they be booby trapped as well? Remove them then if the park and rec dept's main mission in life is to protect us from ourselves then lock the front gate at the park so we cannot get in. Theres lots of more dangerous things in there than geocaches. In my mind the "compromise" is that we lose here they may not take it all but they want to take a large part for a skewed reason surely you can see this. Am I angry, Hell yes I am. I'm angry because my life and one of my favorite activities has been invaded by government trying to regulate something this insignificant. It is ridiculious...

PazuzuPrime icon_mad.gif

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Compromise certainly on matters of relevance. I have no problem with that. This is Geocaching this is nothing, this is recreation and they are trying to take the heart, a huge part of geocaching away from us argueably the largest part "finding the treasure". The cache if you will. Whats in it is not important and if someone wants to hurt you then they will find some way to do it with caches or not. Look at your mailbox it could be booby trapped everyday that you open it but you still look in it. It's just as random and unlikely as a geocache. It's even more likely to be trapped as recently seen, but no one is advocating the removal of mailboxes. Why not? What about all the garbage cans in the parks couldn't they be booby trapped as well? Remove them then if the park and rec dept's main mission in life is to protect us from ourselves then lock the front gate at the park so we cannot get in. Theres lots of more dangerous things in there than geocaches. In my mind the "compromise" is that we lose here they may not take it all but they want to take a large part for a skewed reason surely you can see this. Am I angry, Hell yes I am. I'm angry because my life and one of my favorite activities has been invaded by government trying to regulate something this insignificant. It is ridiculious...

PazuzuPrime icon_mad.gif

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you know, i reread my e-mail and i didn't find anything directly insulting. the only thing i found that was connotated towards insults is the fact that i find their decision ludicrous, which is the best word i can find to discribe it. as for immature, i don't think it's immature to speak my mind while conveying a valid opposing opinion. maybe if i'd called them names or something, but i stand behind what i said and don't think i was out of line. perhaps everybody else who geocaches likes to be pushed around, but i like to lead, not follow, and i like to make known the logically backed contrary views of decisions affecting my interests, reguardless of who made them. at least i'm not protesting with signs outside city hall. it was just an e-mail, and it was heated. i'm sure they've gotten worse flames about this decision, mine just happened to get posted.

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Scene: Park Rangers and Officials of Colorado (PROC) Annual Conference.

 

Denver Park Official (DPO): 'Hey Jim, how are the wife and kids? Haven't seen you since last year, what's new?' [shaking hands with CSPO]

 

Colorado Springs Park Official (CSPO): 'Hey Joe! Not too much, the city attorney is making my life difficult as usual.'

 

DPO: 'I know what you mean. Hey, have you heard about this activity called Geocahing?'

 

CSPO: 'Yeah, we made some guidelines for geocaches in our parks last year.

 

DPO: 'Could you email your guidelines?'

 

CSPO: 'Sure'

 

A Week Later

 

DPO: 'Thanks for the guidelines. That email from the geocacher was interesting also. Based on that email, I don't think it would be fun to sit down and talk with him about potential guidelines. I wonder if all geocachers are like that?'

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I have to agree with lullabud. What a joke. Are we supposed to accept the decision and forget about it because we don't want to piss anybody off?

 

What's so silly about the idea is I had a micro cache in one of the parks here in Colorado Springs. It was placed in April, 2002 and retrieved last week.

 

The original contents were a small pencil, an eraser, and a strip of paper.

 

When I retrieved it, it contained an army patch, a jingle bell, 2 Mexican coins, and a sticker. icon_eek.gif

 

No HIV needles, no bombs, no anthrax.

 

I guess we cheated death this time!

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I have to agree with lullabud. What a joke. Are we supposed to accept the decision and forget about it because we don't want to piss anybody off?

 

What's so silly about the idea is I had a micro cache in one of the parks here in Colorado Springs. It was placed in April, 2002 and retrieved last week.

 

The original contents were a small pencil, an eraser, and a strip of paper.

 

When I retrieved it, it contained an army patch, a jingle bell, 2 Mexican coins, and a sticker. icon_eek.gif

 

No HIV needles, no bombs, no anthrax.

 

I guess we cheated death this time!

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quote:
What a joke.

 

I guess we cheated death this time!


 

OK, so you guys are geocaching freedom fighters. Granted. But I still haven't read a legitimate solution to the litigation issue. Just because you "cheated death" this time, what about the time when someone does get hurt (or claims to have been hurt) in the park? Are you saying that is an impossibility? Are you willing to fork over the costs of defending the lawsuit and any resulting monetary awards? If so then just place a few million in a fund accessible by the city and I'm sure they'd be glad to let you place your canister in the park once again.

 

Look, I know you're pissed about the parks ruling but reality is reality. It's all about lawyers these days. Thank a Democrat for denying any real tort reform.

 

CheesyD

 

"Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they shall inherit the earth."

--Monty Python's The Life of Brian

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quote:
Originally posted by CheesyD:

...Just because you "cheated death" this time, what about the time when someone does get hurt (or claims to have been hurt) in the park? Are you saying that is an impossibility?...


 

people get hurt doing all sorts of things. the point is that adding geocaching to the equation doesn't increase the risk any. in the case of somebody who's out to intentionally hurt somebody you're no better off, because reguardless of wether it's legal or not to leave a box that person is going to do it. so now you have a box that's not marked on a gps, but it doesn't matter because somebody is going to open it up, even if it has to be the park ranger who comes to remove it. so now you get the same results wether geocaching is factored in or not, so why bother preventing our obscure sport from continuing in public places? it makes no sense. i could maybe understand if somebody had ever been hurt in the area from something within their guidelines, but quite frankly, more people have been hurt opening their mailboxes and finding bombs in the last year, nobody was hurt from geocaching.

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All well and good but that still does nothing to prevent the city from being sued in the event something should happen. They are just trying to limit their liabilities and they aren't responsible if someone's mailbox gets blown up, but they are if they get injured in the park. Again, it's all about the money.

 

CheesyD

 

"Blessed are the cheesemakers, for they shall inherit the earth."

--Monty Python's The Life of Brian

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I had a much harsher message for the both of you... But I refrained...

 

quote:
Originally posted by lullabud:

 

Bunch of crap


 

Now you're just trying to retrojustify the email you sent...

 

Husker Nation went in person and probably got us the restrictions we did instead of the "no caches period" that was previously in place... You, in one email, have probably made some people rethink their decision... I'd like to point out that YOU DID NOT consult with husker before this, and since he's the one fronting the negotiations, you should have... you're a moron...

 

I enjoy this sport, as do others... and ultimately, emails like this are going to make them take a hard look and maybe not allow anything within the parks at all... You directly have affected the outcome of this very fragile dispute... and have probably directly affected me as a result... Hopefully I won't meet you on the trails, though you probably won't notice with your head up your *** and all...

 

Way to go retard...

 

And tell your friend to quit backing you too, you both must live under a rock if you can't see their viewpoint...

 

Go earn some eloquence...

 

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Contents Under Pressure...

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>All well and good but that still does nothing to >prevent the city from being sued in the event >something should happen. They are just trying to >limit their liabilities and they aren't >responsible if someone's mailbox gets blown up, >but they are if they get injured in the park. >Again, it's all about the money.

 

I understand your point, and understand how they are trying to cover themselves, but answer this..

 

If you get hurt in a park while hiking, can you sue the city? If you can sue, then what's the real difference between getting hurt hiking and getting hurt via a cache? If they can get sued by a person getting hurt hiking, then hiking should be banned too.

 

If you can't sue, then the city is saying you are accepting responsibility for your own actions while hiking, but we are accepting responsibility for you opening up containers.

 

One positive idea perhaps... Maybe we as cachers in the Springs community could sign a waiver form saying we won't sue if we get hurt? What do you think?

 

My $0.02. icon_smile.gif

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>All well and good but that still does nothing to >prevent the city from being sued in the event >something should happen. They are just trying to >limit their liabilities and they aren't >responsible if someone's mailbox gets blown up, >but they are if they get injured in the park. >Again, it's all about the money.

 

I understand your point, and understand how they are trying to cover themselves, but answer this..

 

If you get hurt in a park while hiking, can you sue the city? If you can sue, then what's the real difference between getting hurt hiking and getting hurt via a cache? If they can get sued by a person getting hurt hiking, then hiking should be banned too.

 

If you can't sue, then the city is saying you are accepting responsibility for your own actions while hiking, but we are accepting responsibility for you opening up containers.

 

One positive idea perhaps... Maybe we as cachers in the Springs community could sign a waiver form saying we won't sue if we get hurt? What do you think?

 

My $0.02. icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by NuBi:

One positive idea perhaps... Maybe we as cachers in the Springs community could sign a waiver form saying we won't sue if we get hurt? What do you think?


 

I think the problem is that their position is standing, and we have to accomodate said position either by finding a loophole or trying to convince them that their legal concerns are pointing the wrong way...

 

One, and this is the most logical, is that geocaching is going to go underground, not just in the Springs, but everywhere... The CS council isn't alone in this circle I'm sure... Geocaching will be illegal and the risk of losing a cache wil be part of the game... period...

 

Two, convince the city commitee that the liability for injury is up to the visitor, and therefore, falling off a cliff is your own fault (not likely)

 

Eventually, considering how fast this sport is growing, option #1 is going to be the way things will be, and this sport of dropping off ammo cases on someone's property is going to be illegal...

 

Regardless, I don't plan to stop...

 

BTW Nubi, Nice meeting you on monday... because of you, I bought a camelbak today icon_smile.gif You looked less thirsty than I did... hehe...

 

geosig.jpg

Contents Under Pressure...

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quote:
Originally posted by NuBi:

One positive idea perhaps... Maybe we as cachers in the Springs community could sign a waiver form saying we won't sue if we get hurt? What do you think?


 

I think the problem is that their position is standing, and we have to accomodate said position either by finding a loophole or trying to convince them that their legal concerns are pointing the wrong way...

 

One, and this is the most logical, is that geocaching is going to go underground, not just in the Springs, but everywhere... The CS council isn't alone in this circle I'm sure... Geocaching will be illegal and the risk of losing a cache wil be part of the game... period...

 

Two, convince the city commitee that the liability for injury is up to the visitor, and therefore, falling off a cliff is your own fault (not likely)

 

Eventually, considering how fast this sport is growing, option #1 is going to be the way things will be, and this sport of dropping off ammo cases on someone's property is going to be illegal...

 

Regardless, I don't plan to stop...

 

BTW Nubi, Nice meeting you on monday... because of you, I bought a camelbak today icon_smile.gif You looked less thirsty than I did... hehe...

 

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Contents Under Pressure...

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. . . who is also a former county government executive.

 

Paragraphs, proper grammar, and correct spelling provide a level of credibility to self expression and persuasion. They also better enable readers to understand and follow the arguments presented.

 

Arguing with government officials by challenging their authority and attacking their logic rarely works and is usually counter-productive. Demonstrating the benefits of geocaching to the parks department ("Cache In, Trash Out") and the responsible actions of participants would perhaps produce better results.

 

Maybe a successful first phase placement of virtual caches, geocaching trail maintenance volunteers, and compliance with the offered rules could lead to a loosening of restrictions based on mutual trust and respect.

 

Nahhhh!!! Could never work!

 

Be Seeing You!

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quote:
Originally posted by Number 6:

. . . who is also a former county government executive.

 

Paragraphs, proper grammar, and correct spelling provide a level of credibility to self expression and persuasion. They also better enable readers to understand and follow the arguments presented.

 

Arguing with government officials by challenging their authority and attacking their logic rarely works and is usually counter-productive. Demonstrating the benefits of geocaching to the parks department ("Cache In, Trash Out") and the responsible actions of participants would perhaps produce better results.

 

Maybe a successful first phase placement of virtual caches, geocaching trail maintenance volunteers, and compliance with the offered rules could lead to a loosening of restrictions based on mutual trust and respect.

 

Nahhhh!!! Could never work!

 

Be Seeing You!


 

Listen to this man... Remember that the people you're dealing with are humans, and will take to heart what you say...

 

Great post #6

 

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Contents Under Pressure...

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reguardless of everything that has been said here, everybody except nubi is still missing the point. allowing geocaches does not present any extra liability. if i'm hiking while bird-watching and i hurt myself, then sue the gov they're not going to outlaw birdwatching because i happened to be birdwatching on my hike. the same with geocaching. i'm going to go hiking whether i'm geocaching or not, and if i happen to hurt myself it had nothing directly to do with geocaching.

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quote:
I'd like to point out that YOU DID NOT consult with husker before this, and since he's the one fronting the negotiations, you should

have.. you're a moron...


quote:
Hopefully I won't meet you on the trails, though you probably won't notice with your head up your *** and all...

quote:
Way to go retard...

 

And then Acceptable Risk has the nerve to add this on his last post

 

quote:
Listen to this man... Remember that the people you're dealing with are humans, and will take to heart what you say...

.....Hypocrite.......

First off let me start by saying that none of the posts that I or Lullabud posted attacked anyone with childish name calling or abusive language. We are stating the way that we feel about a activity that we enjoy doing that is being unfairly attacked and singled out as dangerous, when we all know it is not. So that being the case allow me to issue a hearty **** YOU!! to Acceptable Risk. I certainly hope that my head is completly up my *** next time that I am on a trail so that I dont meet you. Now on the better things. One I didn't know that Husker Nation is the only person that can voice concern to Colo Spgs Park and Rec if I had known that then I would have asked him first. However last time that I checked I pay taxes as much as the next guy so I feel that I can consult with them as I see fit. To Husker Nation I would like to issue a thank you for everything that you have done for geocaching. You may not like the e-mails that were sent by us as well, but thank you for doing something and not sitting around just living with what they have mandated upon us. Since this seems to be a unifying cry among all of you that flame lull and I YES I do see their point of view that geocaching does pose a potential hazard. Their reaction to this is however flawed as we have detailed in numerous past posts. This is logic this is truth that people can get hurt by countless things in the parks (animals, baseball, cliffs, vagrants, acts of god, ANYTHING!!!). Your life will be forever threatened by lawyers threatening to sue you for something or other. Itisthe law of the land unfortunatly. There are other open containers in parks they are called trash cans they could be just as easily trapped as geocaches. We cannot be protected from lunatics no matter what you do to try, they will find a way to harm us if they want that is the truth. I understand that for the most part we are at the mercy of the city on this issue. Letting them understand that you are unhappy is not wrong our e-mails were heated but not disrespecful.

 

PazuzuPrime

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Forgive me for dropping in on a local issue, but I know this scenario is repeating itself all over the country. I'm following this with great interest as I begin to lobby for permission to place traditional caches. I've learned a lot from this discussion.

 

quote:
reguardless of everything that has been said here, everybody except nubi is still missing the point. allowing geocaches does not present any extra liability. if i'm hiking while bird-watching and i hurt myself, then sue the gov they're not going to outlaw birdwatching because i happened to be birdwatching on my hike. the same with geocaching. i'm going to go hiking whether i'm geocaching or not, and if i happen to hurt myself it had nothing directly to do with geocaching.

 

lullabud, you know that, I know that, and just about every geocacher agrees that caches should not represent any more danger or liability than a trash can, map box, or natural hazards on a trail. I don't think anyone challenges that point.

 

The point of view I tried to contribute is that the people charged with protecting the property don't know that YET. A process of credible persuasion based on the concerns of the permission grantors needs to take place.

 

Even with an audience that is predisposed to your argument, you have not persuaded the majority that your approach will help accomplish the goal of cache-friendly parks. Why do you think that is the case?

 

Imagine how those park employees might feel. They are charged with protecting property and the people that use it, not a comfortable task in this day and time.

 

How would you respond to someone who wants to add to your workload by placing mysterious (to you) containers around your park and encourage people with electronic devices to roam around looking for them? Frankly, from their point of view, I think they were very reasonable.

 

How would you respond to someone who has credibly demonstrated over time they can help reduce your workload and add to the enjoyment of the park resulting in commendations instead of complaints?

 

Be Seeing You!

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I read through this thread with a lot of interest because I really enjoy geocaching with my family. Through geocaching we have encountered new and interesting areas in our own backyard. I can't understand how the park service would be so against geocaching. I live in California and have been finding and hiding caches in a 200 mile radius of my home. We have spoken to park officals numerous times and have even brought at least two into the game. I feel that if you could build your case better and perhaps get a representative with more experience to plead your case, then maybe your park officals would reconsider their decision.

 

In our region, cachers are very considerate about where they place their caches. Nearly every public park in Central California has at least one cache in it. We have encountered one park that is run by Nazis and we stay away from there.

 

I personally would not take a blanket decision like this. I agree with prior posts that the reason is faulty and lacks logic. I liken this to arguments against mountain biking and skate boarding. I would make sure that I had all my chickens in a row before I would contact the city again. I would also find out if the person who made this decision really has the power to make it.

 

Good Luck! icon_cool.gif

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

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I read through this thread with a lot of interest because I really enjoy geocaching with my family. Through geocaching we have encountered new and interesting areas in our own backyard. I can't understand how the park service would be so against geocaching. I live in California and have been finding and hiding caches in a 200 mile radius of my home. We have spoken to park officals numerous times and have even brought at least two into the game. I feel that if you could build your case better and perhaps get a representative with more experience to plead your case, then maybe your park officals would reconsider their decision.

 

In our region, cachers are very considerate about where they place their caches. Nearly every public park in Central California has at least one cache in it. We have encountered one park that is run by Nazis and we stay away from there.

 

I personally would not take a blanket decision like this. I agree with prior posts that the reason is faulty and lacks logic. I liken this to arguments against mountain biking and skate boarding. I would make sure that I had all my chickens in a row before I would contact the city again. I would also find out if the person who made this decision really has the power to make it.

 

Good Luck! icon_cool.gif

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

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I am impressed by lullabud's statement of appreciation. After suffering so much passion on this subject, he certainly expressed himself well this time. It would probably have been easier to say nothing and I appreciate his graciousness.

 

Thank you, lullabud!

 

Be Seeing You!

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quote:
Originally posted by Pazuzuprime:
Stuff...

 

I could write 17 pages on this but in short, instead of buddying up with Husker and approaching it that way, your little friend went the other route and probably undid everything he spent the time to do... Tell him to learn to read... the points were quite clear...

 

The bottom line is, they don't want containers on THEIR property... That seems to be the only unreasonable point, and the one point that I can't see them bending on... I don't blame them.... YOU are asking the CITY if you, as a STRANGER can hide am AMMO BOX on THEIR property... Use your head for one second and see their point... I can....

 

In all honesty, I can't think of one single argument for letting us hide these things... It's gonna be headache for them no matter how you look at it as at some point or another, someone is gonna find one and drag one of these poor guys into the woods to investigate... It's pure common sense...

 

It really isn't that difficult... And my name calling still stands... Lull is a moron...

 

Have a nice day and duck...

 

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Contents Under Pressure...

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quote:
Originally posted by Acceptable Risk:

YOU are asking the CITY if you, as a STRANGER can hide am AMMO BOX on THEIR property...


 

ammo box? i've come across many tupperware containers that were even see-through.

 

their property? who's taxes are paying for it? it's our property.

 

stranger? i don't know what the current city population is but i'd say that 99% of the people in it are strangers to the people in charge.

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quote:
Originally posted by Acceptable Risk:
Originally posted by Pazuzuprime:
Stuff...

 

The bottom line is, they don't want containers on THEIR property... That seems to be the only unreasonable point, and the one point that I can't see them bending on... I don't blame them.... YOU are asking the CITY if you, as a STRANGER can hide am AMMO BOX on THEIR property..

 

You've got to kidding. This is public property--we are the public--therefore it is our property to share. I cannot see their point at all. Perhaps geocaching isn't your cup of tea if you do. I noticed that you have only found eight caches, around my area that would be less than a day's outing. I really don't see how you can take the cities side on this matter. From what I read their arguement is weak and irrational. Are pepole allowed to walk through these parks? What if someone trips and falls--do they sue the city? to be safe the city should close all the parks down and enclose them with fences. I have met many people who enjoy geocaching and they have all been intelligent, conciderate, and educated individuals who enjoy the outdoors and technology. None of whom pose any risk to society. icon_mad.gif

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

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quote:
Originally posted by Acceptable Risk:
Originally posted by Pazuzuprime:
Stuff...

 

The bottom line is, they don't want containers on THEIR property... That seems to be the only unreasonable point, and the one point that I can't see them bending on... I don't blame them.... YOU are asking the CITY if you, as a STRANGER can hide am AMMO BOX on THEIR property..

 

You've got to kidding. This is public property--we are the public--therefore it is our property to share. I cannot see their point at all. Perhaps geocaching isn't your cup of tea if you do. I noticed that you have only found eight caches, around my area that would be less than a day's outing. I really don't see how you can take the cities side on this matter. From what I read their arguement is weak and irrational. Are pepole allowed to walk through these parks? What if someone trips and falls--do they sue the city? to be safe the city should close all the parks down and enclose them with fences. I have met many people who enjoy geocaching and they have all been intelligent, conciderate, and educated individuals who enjoy the outdoors and technology. None of whom pose any risk to society. icon_mad.gif

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

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quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:

 

You've got to kidding. This is public property--we are the public--therefore it is our property to share. I cannot see their point at all. Perhaps geocaching isn't your cup of tea if you do.


 

Huh?

 

quote:
I noticed that you have only found eight caches, around my area that would be less than a day's outing.

 

Who the hell cares how many I found, that has no relevence on the topic here... You brought that up why? So I could see your 200+ finds? I care...

 

quote:
I really don't see how you can take the cities side on this matter. From what I read their arguement is weak and irrational.

 

You're a Physics teacher and yet you can't read... nor comprehend... I never said I was taking their side. Like I explained in a previous post, there were people going thru official channels debating this with the city, I also stated that if caches became illegal, I would still pursue the sport...

 

READ->COMPREHEND->POST

 

Do you speak it?

 

quote:
Are pepole allowed to walk through these parks? What if someone trips and falls--do they sue the city? to be safe the city should close all the parks down and enclose them with fences.

 

Once again, READ->COMPREHEND->POST

 

quote:
I have met many people who enjoy geocaching and they have all been intelligent, conciderate, and educated individuals who enjoy the outdoors and technology. None of whom pose any risk to society.

 

That's not the point... Apparently you didn't read one bit of this thread... I'm wasting my time with you...

 

quote:
Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

 

Bingo, lemme add you to my list... Off to grab my pack since my 8 finds bothers you soooo much...

 

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I wasn't going to post on this thread, but now you've gone and insulted George and/or Mary.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Acceptable Risk:

 

Once again, READ->COMPREHEND->POST

 


 

Comprehending your posts might be easier if you were (a) capable of expressing yourself in written English, (:) your arguments made some teeny bit of sense, or © you had a minimal understanding of the issues in this situation.

 

Let's review your "arguments," shall we?

 

Stupid statement #1:

quote:

YOU are asking the CITY if you, as a STRANGER can hide am AMMO BOX on THEIR property...


 

Umm, no. The city parks do not belong to the bureaucrats who administer them. They belong to the people of the city.

 

Stupid statement #2:

quote:
In all honesty, I can't think of one single argument for letting us hide these things...

 

At least you're honest here. I fully believe that you are incapable of thinking of a reason that geocaching should be allowed.

 

You're not a bureaucrat, by any chance, are you? You certainly sound like one.

 

Stupid statement #3:

quote:
Husker Nation went in person and probably got us the restrictions we did instead of the "no caches period" that was previously in place...

 

Excuse me, but didn't these bureaucrats already deny everything within their power? You are making the surpassingly idiotic claim that their complete rejection of caching was not as bad as it could be because they were going to allow virtual caches. News flash: they cannot legally disallow virtual caches. Don't you think if they could have, they would have disallowed those, too? Jeez, they even tried to place restrictions on virtual caches that they had no right to do!

 

Maybe they are right in their apparent assessment that the people of Colorado Springs are so stupid they will not bother to protest this very obvious attempt to grab power.

 

Stupid statement #4:

quote:

Remember that the people you're dealing with are humans, and will take to heart what you say...


 

Government is generally not run by making bureaucrats feel loved and admired. Bureaucrats and politicians love people who don't make a big fuss. It is abundantly clear to anyone who has a functioning cerebral cortex that the Colorado Springs bureaucrats will disallow everything they can. The only way to rectify the situation is by making their bosses (e.g. the city council, or mayor, or whoever actually runs the city) force them to accommodate caches.

 

I think that lullabud's honesty and passion in his letter were good things. He now needs to send a letter to those who are actually in power in Colorado Springs; perhaps he should organize a protest at the next City Council meeting.

 

And, Acceptable, my little moron, quit blaming others for their failure to understand your garbled thought processes.

 

[This message was edited by fizzymagic on July 22, 2002 at 01:12 PM.]

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You better be careful Fizzymagic you probably have been added to this crackpots list as well as georgeandmary. Whatever his list is but it sounds suspiciously menacing. Lull and I have been told to duck. I wonder if Cspd would like to know about his seemingly "threatening" remarks. From what I understand they are looking to rid the streets of mentally unstable people such as acceptable risk. icon_mad.gif

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You better be careful Fizzymagic you probably have been added to this crackpots list as well as georgeandmary. Whatever his list is but it sounds suspiciously menacing. Lull and I have been told to duck. I wonder if Cspd would like to know about his seemingly "threatening" remarks. From what I understand they are looking to rid the streets of mentally unstable people such as acceptable risk. icon_mad.gif

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Very interesting. Let me get this straight, he's making a list. I wonder if he'll check it twice. Maybe he'll find out who's naughty or nice. Just let me know when your coming to town Santa. icon_razz.gif

 

Just to clarify a couple of items. This post was written by Mary and not George. I also am a teacher if you want to take a few cheap shots at me as well. I made the comment about your find count because I could not understand how someone who really enjoys geocaching would roll over like a dog because he was told to by some government official. icon_confused.gif

 

I also would like to note that when someone disagrees with you, you revert to name calling instead of arguing your point using logic.

 

Thanks Fizzy for the defense. I always knew you were a gentleman. icon_wink.gif

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

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[This message was edited by georgeandmary on July 22, 2002 at 03:35 PM.]

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Very interesting. Let me get this straight, he's making a list. I wonder if he'll check it twice. Maybe he'll find out who's naughty or nice. Just let me know when your coming to town Santa. icon_razz.gif

 

Just to clarify a couple of items. This post was written by Mary and not George. I also am a teacher if you want to take a few cheap shots at me as well. I made the comment about your find count because I could not understand how someone who really enjoys geocaching would roll over like a dog because he was told to by some government official. icon_confused.gif

 

I also would like to note that when someone disagrees with you, you revert to name calling instead of arguing your point using logic.

 

Thanks Fizzy for the defense. I always knew you were a gentleman. icon_wink.gif

 

Remember: Half the people you meet are below average.

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[This message was edited by georgeandmary on July 22, 2002 at 03:35 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Pazuzuprime:

You better be careful Fizzymagic you probably have been added to this crackpots list as well as georgeandmary. Whatever his list is but it sounds suspiciously menacing. Lull and I have been told to duck. I wonder if Cspd would like to know about his seemingly "threatening" remarks. From what I understand they are looking to rid the streets of mentally unstable people such as acceptable risk.


 

Ok ok ok... I lost this argument... Quite horribly I might add... I apologize to those I got short with but I still stand by the original statement that Lul's email was not the right thing to send... It ends here and you'll hear nothing more from me on this subject...

 

BTW, Squad51 posted a note on one of his caches in which a county park is free from the city's restrictions (Bear Creek, I'm not sure what other "county" parks there are, hell I didn't even know Bear Creek fell into that category.) I stopped by MediaPlay to see if they had a park book that outlines what belongs to who... but no luck...

 

So that's that... oh and "have a nice day and duck" is from a poster from Chili's... not a threat. It's my standard sig from usenet, I just keep forgetting to add it to my sig here...

 

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Yep, Bear Creek is free for caching! Though right next door, Stratton Open Space is NOT! We had to remove Lost Souls, Inc. recently. But, the ranger we talked to at Bear Creek Nature Center said the city has nothing to do with Bear Creek, so as long as the rules are followed, caching is ok there. We'll see what we can do about getting a complete list of where we can and can't cache.

 

BUT... Squad51 isn't a he, we are a they, and the one who does all this yapping all the time (me) is a she! LOL... icon_biggrin.gif

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Yep, Bear Creek is free for caching! Though right next door, Stratton Open Space is NOT! We had to remove Lost Souls, Inc. recently. But, the ranger we talked to at Bear Creek Nature Center said the city has nothing to do with Bear Creek, so as long as the rules are followed, caching is ok there. We'll see what we can do about getting a complete list of where we can and can't cache.

 

BUT... Squad51 isn't a he, we are a they, and the one who does all this yapping all the time (me) is a she! LOL... icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Squad51:

BUT... Squad51 isn't a he, we are a they, and the one who does all this yapping all the time (me) is a she! LOL... icon_biggrin.gif


 

I always think "he" based on the pictures...

 

A buddy and I are going to tackle April Fools and Kitty this weekend... From what I hear, you guys are the masters... This should be fun...

 

BTW: what other parks are county owned? Is it just Bear Creek? Although, looking at maps, it seems easy enough to place "just" outside of park bounderies and get around this whole thing alltogether...

 

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Contents Under Pressure...

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Squad51:

BUT... Squad51 isn't a he, we are a they, and the one who does all this yapping all the time (me) is a she! LOL... icon_biggrin.gif


 

I always think "he" based on the pictures...

 

A buddy and I are going to tackle April Fools and Kitty this weekend... From what I hear, you guys are the masters... This should be fun...

 

BTW: what other parks are county owned? Is it just Bear Creek? Although, looking at maps, it seems easy enough to place "just" outside of park bounderies and get around this whole thing alltogether...

 

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Heehee....April Fool's will take more than a weekend, especially since stage 2 has gone missing and we are working on replacing it! We have temporarily disabled April Fool's until we fix this. But if you hit stage one, and figure out where stage two is, email us with the coords you have figured out. If you are right, we'll email you the puzzle that will lead to stage 3...

 

If you hit Kitty Cache, just a bit down the road is King Albert...

 

Team Squad51 icon_biggrin.gif

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Heehee....April Fool's will take more than a weekend, especially since stage 2 has gone missing and we are working on replacing it! We have temporarily disabled April Fool's until we fix this. But if you hit stage one, and figure out where stage two is, email us with the coords you have figured out. If you are right, we'll email you the puzzle that will lead to stage 3...

 

If you hit Kitty Cache, just a bit down the road is King Albert...

 

Team Squad51 icon_biggrin.gif

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You can find a full list (and map) of COUNTY parks here: http://www.elpasoco.com/parks/prktrail.asp

 

For the lazy (like me), they are:

 

(El Paso County Parks ONLY)

Bear Creek

Fox Run Park

Palmer Lake Park

Homestead Ranch Park

Black Forest Park

Fountain Creek Park

Widefield Park

 

And trails that are county owned:

New Santa Fe Trail

Rock Island Trail

Fountain Creek Trail

 

On the above link, each park and trail has it's own linked page, so be sure to check them out for more info.

 

On a sadder note, here's where you can find the listings for city parks, which we all know are off-limits...

http://www.springsgov.com/Page.asp?NavID=788

 

Their website states:::

 

Today, Parks, Recreation & Cultural Services manages 7 regional parks, 8 community parks, 123 neighborhood parks, 6 sports complexes and 40 open space areas. Combined, there are over 12,000 acres of parks, trails and open space, and we continue to acquire and maintain more, enhancing the quality of life for the citizens of Colorado Springs.

 

ENHANCING THE QUALITY OF LIFE....heehee...yep.

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