Armchair logging, souvenirs and challenges

[+Deepdiggingmole]

Will anything be done about the fact that souvenirs do not get removed if it turns out the cache that created it gets deleted due to the fact that the cacher was armchair logging

 

Example : A cacher lives in Australia, has only found caches in Australia - On 31st July he finds caches in his local area but on 1st August he logs a webcam cache in Germany and on the same day claims two virtuals in different states in the USA and the very next day (2nd August) back to logging caches in Australia.
So he gets a souvenir for Germany, a souvenir for the German state, a souvenir for US and two souvenirs for the two US state - 5 new souvenirs while sitting in his lounge at home in Australia 
 

We know this happens -...

However 3 astute COs note this and delete the 3 logs - so now his stats show he has only found caches in Australia - except the souvenirs these remain, so he has gained 5 souvenirs by essentially doing nothing 

 

So we come to Challenge caches and specifically those where the criteria is to have X number of souvenirs - being able to log caches like this in the knowledge that they may well be deleted but you gain souvenirs in the process makes the challenges for souvenirs a farce. 

I understand this is similar to other aspects of the game and other challenge criteria but many will change if logs get deleted 
If the challenge was to find 10 webcam caches (for example) then you would have to rely on those logs not being deleted as your stats reflect any that are 
This is not the case with souvenirs 

So can the souvenir set up reflect what you actually have and if a log gets deleted the respective souvenir gets deleted too 

 

[+JL_HSTRE]

25 minutes ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

So can the souvenir set up reflect what you actually have and if a log gets deleted the respective souvenir gets deleted 

 

I'm in agreement on the principle here, but I wonder how well that would work on the technical side of things. Currently it seems Souvenirs are triggered by new Found logs so they only need to be checked once.

 

The problem is what happens when a log tied to a Souvenir is deleted, but other qualifying logs are legitimate. For example, a cacher goes to a new state, but the first cache logged is in error. The log is deleted which takes away the Souvenir, but Groundspeak's database needs to know to check all of the cacher's later logs to see if another cache still qualifies for the Souvenir(s). 

[+mustakorppi]

This made me think, is there any rule against a souvenir streak challenge? Souvenir receive date information is "widely available" (shown on the souvenir page) and as it's passed through the API, I assume a checker could be made.

 

People who were around for the 31 days of geocaching promotion have a 31 day streak, which would be extremely hard for anyone else to reach without cheating...

[+Isonzo Karst]

52 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

rule against a souvenir streak challenge?

Challenge article

9. Time limited

NOT ACCEPTABLE: Specifying any element of a cache page (type, rating, etc.) or find count (above one per day) required during a streak.

 

Souvenir is an element of a cache page covered by "etc."  ;-)

 

 

[+frostengel]

7 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

makes the challenges for souvenirs a farce

 

You are a geocaching veteran so you know that getting souvenirs was much (much!) harder in the old days. For some years now souvenirs have been awarded for the simplest things, finding one cache at a specific date or finding ten caches in a month to be an explorer (or something like that) to get 25 souvenirs at once.

So ANY challenge to find a given numbers of souvenirs was hard in the old days and is a farce now. (If I would have owned one challenge cache like this I would surely have archived it.)

 

If someone logs a cache without having visited it it may bother the owner so this person - and this person alone - is the one to be upset about the bad log. But no one has any disadvantage if someone else has a souvenir in bis profile or not. So I do not sea any reason to care about others' souvenirs.

 

Jochen

[+barefootjeff]

8 hours ago, Deepdiggingmole said:

So can the souvenir set up reflect what you actually have and if a log gets deleted the respective souvenir gets deleted too 

 

At first glance this sounded reasonable but...

 

I normally "delete" my AL finds so they don't totally dominate my stats, but during the recent Science of Discovery promotion, which was really an AL promotion and heavily biased in favour of AL finds, I discovered early on that if I "deleted" an AL stage find my points in that promotion went down so I let the finds I made during the time it ran stand. After it ended I went back and "deleted" them so my stats now show no AL finds. If your suggestion was implemented, I presume I'd lose the souvenirs from that promotion, and any other promotions where AL finds contribute to them like the current Reach the Peak one.

 

Okay, sure, it's probably no big deal in the grand scheme of things to lose those promotional souvenirs, as long as the system didn't flag me as an armchair logger when it removed them, but I did enjoy that promotion as it encouraged me to travel further afield to do some ALs I probably wouldn't have otherwise done, and those souvenirs are a bit of a memento of those fun trips.

Edited August 8, 2021 by barefootjeff

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:48 PM, barefootjeff said:

I normally "delete" my AL finds so they don't totally dominate my stats

AL are different to the rest of the caches - yes, deleting them is your choice - but only YOU can delete your AL finds as we have discovered that neither the CO or HQ can do so - so if your AL count went down everyone will know that is only you doing that and so it is unlikely the system can claim you are armchair logging since it is an inept system anyway 

[+IloveWCT]

Good evening

 

I am new here, I hope this is the right spot to ask: I consider creating a Challenge Mystery. 

 

Are their any recommodations about how to check that only people fullfilling the Challenge log the cache?

[+Isonzo Karst]

 

2.13. Challenge-Caches (Deutsch)

 

Specific to your question, a challenge cache must now have a checker,  2.14 Challenge Checkers

Edited August 21, 2021 by Isonzo Karst

[+Deepdiggingmole]

On 8/21/2021 at 8:22 PM, IloveWCT said:

Good evening

 

I am new here, I hope this is the right spot to ask: I consider creating a Challenge Mystery. 

 

Are their any recommodations about how to check that only people fullfilling the Challenge log the cache?

Hi @IloveWCT

Not really the right spot as this is a seperate topic to the original post - but to answer - in order to get a challenge cache published you will be required to add a 'checker' to the cache listing - this checker enables them to prove and you to check if 'finders' of the cache do qualify

if you go to the relevant section on project GC they will help you - use this link https://project-gc.com/forum/list?8  

[+thebruce0]

It could be possible to create the ability, on a single account level, to re-verify a souvenir. In this case it wouldn't happen automatically, but much like PGC queues up profile stat updates, one could request that the requirements for a souvenir be revalidated.  This doesn't address couch-cachers (why would they willingly choose to revalidate a souvenir for removal if they fake-logged to get it) but, if that functionality can exist, then it potentially be expanded to proxy-queue souvenir checks, or even limit the checks to a certain amount per day/week/month.

 

Perhaps a user's souvenir scan revalidation could be triggered only on log deletion or date adjustment. It could check for souvenirs related to the original log, then queue revalidation for only those souvenirs. That way if a user makes a log adjustment, at some point a relevant souvenir may be removed if it no longer applies. And the checks don't overwhelm the system, it's still just a once-off once the system gets to it, and it wouldn't require a user to make the initial request.

 

There are ways to make it work....