Caches not published due to potential bias from reviewer

[+ArcticMoon101]

Hello,

I am a big fan of both geocaching and Pokémon, and wanted to place Pokémon themed geocaches. I planned for weeks, ensuring the caches had a nice location that would merit visiting even aside from caches, and customized each and every container by hand. I then spent 5 hours biking to place them. Upon attempting to publish them, however, I was told be a reviewer the following “I'm sorry, but Pokemon is a competing location based game, and the staff at geocaching.comhave determined that we cannot allow any direct or indirect references to Pokemon on cache pages that are to be published on geocaching.com. You must remove all references to Pokemon on the cache page, itself, including the name and any images.”

This is an issue because there are other Pokémon themed caches including 

This one: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6RFKT

And this one: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6GMH3_082-magnemite?guid=0f69a11e-9263-42da-85e2-2cc003f9eae4

Thus, I am wondering if I could have my caches reviewed again. If not, I would like to know where I can go to get more information on the specifics of exactly why my caches are being prevented from being published.

 

Thank You!

 

[Keystone]

I looked at your cache pages (Reviewers can see them, but other participants in this Forum cannot.)  I do not see any evidence of bias.  Rather, I see a standard "form letter" response - all Reviewers use them to deal with common issues.  For example, here is some text from my form letter:

 

"Hello, I am a Community Volunteer Reviewer for Geocaching.com, and I reviewed your geocache submission.  I have one request for you.  Please choose a different theme instead of the Pokemon Go game, and edit your cache description and title accordingly. Geocaching HQ has asked the Reviewers not to permit text on cache listings that promotes this competing geolocational gaming activity. This request is made under the section of the Geocache Hiding Guidelines about commercial content and solicitation."

 

Did you notice the slight difference between the above text and the form letter that your Reviewer used?  It's the difference between "Pokemon Go" and "Pokemon."  Pokemon Go is one of several competing geolocational gaming activities that cannot be mentioned on a cache page.  On the other hand, Pokemon is a multimedia franchise that includes video games, trading cards, TV shows, etc. based on the famous characters.  Caches based on Pokemon characters and other things in the multimedia series are permitted under the "pop culture" exception to the Geocache Hiding Guidelines regarding commercialism.  There can be no text alluding to the competing smartphone game, like "there is a gym nearby that my friends and I visit frequently when playing."

 

Perhaps your Reviewer is not as big a fan of Pokemon as you are.  I would suggest writing back politely to note the distinction between Pokemon the pop culture concept and Pokemon Go the geolocational game.  She may not be aware of the difference.  No Reviewer can know everything!  Your Reviewer is a nice person, which is why she was asked to join the volunteer team, and I am sure she did not review your caches with any sort of bias against you.

[+Ragnemalm]

I am pretty sure this has nothing to do with the reviewer, since it is violating several rules from Groundspeak. Pokémon itself is a commercial trademark, Pokémon Go is a competing game, and Pokémon images may be copyrighted. Pretty clear IMHO.

 

The caches you refer to are several years old, and by then Pokemon Go was very new and these conflicts may not have been put into reviewer guidelines yet. "Past publication of a similar geocache is not justification for publication of a new geocache."

 

Furthermore, the rules state:

 

No commercial content

Cache pages perceived as commercial will not be published. Commercial content includes any of the following characteristics

...

    Name, links, or logos of the following
        Businesses
        Commercial products
        Competing games or cache listing services

 

So it is all in the rules. Sorry, many fun ideas are blocked by this.

[+STNolan]

7 hours ago, ArcticMoon101 said:

Hello,

I am a big fan of both geocaching and Pokémon, and wanted to place Pokémon themed geocaches. I planned for weeks, ensuring the caches had a nice location that would merit visiting even aside from caches, and customized each and every container by hand. I then spent 5 hours biking to place them. Upon attempting to publish them, however, I was told be a reviewer the following “I'm sorry, but Pokemon is a competing location based game, and the staff at geocaching.comhave determined that we cannot allow any direct or indirect references to Pokemon on cache pages that are to be published on geocaching.com. You must remove all references to Pokemon on the cache page, itself, including the name and any images.”

This is an issue because there are other Pokémon themed caches including 

This one: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6RFKT

And this one: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6GMH3_082-magnemite?guid=0f69a11e-9263-42da-85e2-2cc003f9eae4

Thus, I am wondering if I could have my caches reviewed again. If not, I would like to know where I can go to get more information on the specifics of exactly why my caches are being prevented from being published.

 

Thank You!

 

 

Hi,

 

I won't speak for @Keystone (who is our resident Forum Reviewer) but it sounds like you have an answer in the email you received. At the end of the day, while geocaching is a hobby for many of us, it is also a business and as such the business side of the house has made rules that caches can't advertise for another competing business and they have determined that the mobile location based Pokemon game is a competitor. Another instance of this rule is in place here in the forums: you can't discuss or even reference competing geolocation games like M***** (name intentionally redacted).

 

An idea for how you could get your caches published - remove the reference to Pokemon and instead reference it by theme "Water" "Air" "Poison" "Fairy" "Dark" etc. This way you aren't specifically violating the spirit of the rule but also get to bring cachers to the locations you painstakingly picked out.

 

At the end of the day it might be frustrating, but it's the rules.

[+STNolan]

Just now, STNolan said:

I won't speak for @Keystone (who is our resident Forum Reviewer)

 

Whoops, looks like Keystone beat me to answering. I knew I was typing too slow! 

[Keystone]

LOL... you know about me when it comes to forum threads about the review process -- "Gotta catch 'em all!"

[+STNolan]

3 minutes ago, Keystone said:

LOL... you know about me when it comes to forum threads about the review process -- "Gotta catch 'em all!"

 

I hope the rest of the reviewing team knows how big an advocate you are for them. Taking the brunt of the anger on the forums lol

[+GeoElmo6000]

I've had a cache declined that was Pokemon Go themed but I've seen Pokemon caches, with the former being the location based game and the latter being the domain in general.

 

IMO I wouldn't characterize PG as a competing game just because it's location-based, but that's just an opinion.  Unlike choosing a single airline to get you from one destination to another for a specific trip, people can be involved in multiple location based games at the same time.  

[Keystone]

Try handing out Delta Airlines promotional brochures during a United Airlines flight, and report back to the group on how that works out.

 

While I agree that competing games can be enjoyed simultaneously, Geocaching HQ has decided that the competing games should not enjoy the benefits of free advertising on their websites and apps. 

[+GeoElmo6000]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

Try handing out Delta Airlines promotional brochures during a United Airlines flight, and report back to the group on how that works out.

 

While I agree that competing games can be enjoyed simultaneously, Geocaching HQ has decided that the competing games should not enjoy the benefits of free advertising on their websites and apps. 

 

I agree with what you said, but in my opinion, not clamping down on the mention of other location based games would just show the strength of and confidence in the geocaching hobby.

[Johannis10]

On 8/2/2021 at 6:07 PM, Keystone said:

Try handing out Delta Airlines promotional brochures during a United Airlines flight

I think two different airlines are more similar than two different location-based games. To me, the behavior of GS is more like an orangeseller who forbids pronouncing the word apples in his vicinity. He's welcome to do that, but he shouldn't be surprised if some people who like apples and oranges find that a bit strange.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Johannis10
Better translation

[+Goldenwattle]

19 hours ago, ArcticMoon101 said:

Hello,

I am a big fan of both geocaching and Pokémon, and wanted to place Pokémon themed geocaches. I planned for weeks, ensuring the caches had a nice location that would merit visiting even aside from caches, and customized each and every container by hand. I then spent 5 hours biking to place them. Upon attempting to publish them, however, I was told be a reviewer the following “I'm sorry, but Pokemon is a competing location based game, and the staff at geocaching.comhave determined that we cannot allow any direct or indirect references to Pokemon on cache pages that are to be published on geocaching.com. You must remove all references to Pokemon on the cache page, itself, including the name and any images.”

This is an issue because there are other Pokémon themed caches including 

This one: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6RFKT

And this one: https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC6GMH3_082-magnemite?guid=0f69a11e-9263-42da-85e2-2cc003f9eae4

Thus, I am wondering if I could have my caches reviewed again. If not, I would like to know where I can go to get more information on the specifics of exactly why my caches are being prevented from being published.

 

Thank You!

 

There are some Pokemon based puzzle geocaches near where I live. I open, see pokemon, which I don't understand, and close them. They are caches I am very unlikely to ever do, as I don't understand pokemon. I have come upon a number of puzzle caches with some obscure game (many which become dated as the game goes out of fashion) I have either never heard of, or have no interest in learning about. I open the cache page, read what it is about, close, and place it on my not to do list. Just because someone is so into some game, doesn't mean everyone else is. I agree with geocaching in this instance. Shame the ones local to me (there's several) got published.

[+TubedFlamingo]

22 hours ago, ArcticMoon101 said:

Thus, I am wondering if I could have my caches reviewed again. If not, I would like to know where I can go to get more information on the specifics of exactly why my caches are being prevented from being published.

 

Thanks to Keystone for clearing up the difference between Pokemon and Pokemon Go with me!  I'm afraid I knew only enough to be dangerous, though I know a bit more now  

 

ArcticMoon101, I humbly apologize for not getting it right the first time, but am very glad it is moving forward now.  To your questions: 1.) Yes, you can ALWAYS ask a reviewer to reconsider your cache, and are encouraged to do so whenever you don't understand an action that has been taken, and 2.)  You can also ALWAYS get more info on exactly why a cache was kicked-back.  Where from?  From the person who took the action .  Just resubmit your cache and we reviewers are not only happy to explain and help, but we are also happy to correct a situation when we have made an error.  Lucky for us in this case, Keystone was on patrol and brought this to my attention! 

 

As to the topic this thread was posted within, "potential bias from reviewer," I hope you are satisfied my actions had nothing to do with bias.  I am not sure what specific bias you were concerned with, but I assure you I have nothing against either you or Pokemon .  My only goal is to help CO's get their caches published, and I much prefer hitting the "Publish" button to returning a cache to the CO for changes of any kind.  Trust me on that one!  

[+fuzziebear3]

15 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

There are some Pokemon based puzzle geocaches near where I live. I open, see pokemon, which I don't understand, and close them. They are caches I am very unlikely to ever do, as I don't understand pokemon. I have come upon a number of puzzle caches with some obscure game (many which become dated as the game goes out of fashion) I have either never heard of, or have no interest in learning about. I open the cache page, read what it is about, close, and place it on my not to do list. Just because someone is so into some game, doesn't mean everyone else is. I agree with geocaching in this instance. Shame the ones local to me (there's several) got published.

 

I have done tons of puzzles, often in topics that really are not my cup of tea.  Whether I learn something or not, it is just about the puzzle, and the different ways to find numbers (or words) and convert them to coordinates.   So I enjoy the puzzles regardless of subject matter.   (As long as they are actually solvable, I dont like 'guess what I am thinking' puzzles).    Among those, yes, I have actually done Pokemon puzzles, and I thought they were mildly interesting.

 

 

[+Rustynails]

Pokemon Go and geocaching are two different activities and not the same. I search for real tupperware in the woods not imaginary things.

[Keystone]

I'm following up on the opening post, since @ArcticMoon101 has not returned to participate in the discussion.  All four of the caches themed after Pokemon characters have now been published.

[+thebruce0]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:17 PM, fuzziebear3 said:

I have done tons of puzzles, often in topics that really are not my cup of tea.  Whether I learn something or not, it is just about the puzzle, and the different ways to find numbers (or words) and convert them to coordinates.   So I enjoy the puzzles regardless of subject matter.   (As long as they are actually solvable, I dont like 'guess what I am thinking' puzzles).    Among those, yes, I have actually done Pokemon puzzles, and I thought they were mildly interesting.

 

This.

Replace "pokemon" with any subject matter. Puzzles are puzzles. I've seen loads of tree puzzles, bird puzzles, electrician puzzles - all subjects I'm not super interested in, but require a bit of "research" to determine the answer. I'm inching closer to just ignoring jigidi jigsaw puzzles though, they're a dime a dozen in my region now, lol

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:21 PM, Johannis10 said:

I think two different airlines are more similar than two different location-based games. To me, the behavior of GS is more like an orangeseller who forbids pronouncing the word apples in his vicinity. He's welcome to do that, but he shouldn't be surprised if some people who like apples and oranges find that a bit strange.

 

The big difference is apples and oranges are common names. You can't trademark them, though you can trademark your own proprietary brand or strain.

 

In contrast, Pokemon and Pokemon go are copyrighted properties. Groundspeak is like a copyright brand. Geocaching could have been trademarked if things had gone a little differently.

[+GeoTrekker26]

Geocaching has Trademark protection. You can see it on the home page or in a search in TESS. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by GeoTrekker26
Fix fubar

[+humboldt flier]

18 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

 

The big difference is apples and oranges are common names. You can't trademark them, though you can trademark your own proprietary brand or strain.

 

In contrast, Pokemon and Pokemon go are copyrighted properties. Groundspeak is like a copyright brand. Geocaching could have been trademarked if things had gone a little differently.

Point well taken.

 

The OP throwing around allegations of reviewers being biased kind of sticks in my craw.  (similar to allegations made by some social justice folks)

 

Seems rather inflammatory to me and "gut checks may be in order".

[+JL_HSTRE]

58 minutes ago, humboldt flier said:

The OP throwing around allegations of reviewers being biased kind of sticks in my craw.  (similar to allegations made by some social justice folks)

 

Bias is often real, but sometimes imagined.

 

I would be curious to know how many people who get told "No" by a Reviewer immediately cry outrage. We certainly see it periodically here on the forums. I suppose it's hard to quantify statistically, especially since some of the issues get resolved and the cache published despite the CO outrage.

 

I'm kind of amused that the OP was outraged at the perceived bias. Not bias against race, religion, political affiliation, or any of the usual suspects. Outrage that the Reviewer was seemingly biased against Pokemon. 

[Johannis10]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:08 PM, JL_HSTRE said:

The big difference is apples and oranges are common names. You can't trademark them...

Bite into an apple and you have a trademark.

Have a nice day.

Greetings Johannis10