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Ordering locations merely to give a bonus cache location on the last location causes needless driving and walking.


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On 11/26/2021 at 8:42 PM, Goldenwattle said:

I was trying to get a find a day, as this motivates me to get out and do some exercise, and these AL WPs were either walking or cycling distance, and I was frustrated by not being able to do them, when travel was limited and time away from home was restricted because of necessary lockdown.

 

What if it were a multi and they were waypoints you had to visit?  Don't think of AL stages as individual geocaches (smilies) - even though that's what you get for them. The AL is one things.  You can either do the stages in order, or do them our of order if the owner has set it that way.  Or is it just because you can SEE the 'waypoint' so close but you can't do anything about it because it's 'locked?

Maybe sequential ALs shouldn't show people the additional waypoints. I mean, it's imperfect, but someone will always be unsatisfied... who gets the short end of the stick?

If someone publishes an impossible puzzle on your door step, you can ignore the cache. You can't ignore ALs, but you choose not to keep looking at all the locations in the offending AL. At least until you decide to do it (like you would a multi-stage cache)...

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

multi-stage cache

During lockdown, I also did a 12(?) stage multi over several outings. That one was in order, but being all in one area with all WPs in cycling distance, that didn't matter. I have done multis where all stages are shown and you can do the stages in any order. They don't all need to be done in an order. With Als, I was mostly doing one stage an outing. It became difficult to do the WPs in my area, when first I had to do WPs further away and during lockdown we were meant to stay local and not travel.

Some people argue that each WP of an AL is equivalent of a cache. It isn't when with individual caches you can find them individually in any order. With ALs that you have to do in an order, that makes them more like the multicaches where you need to do the WPs in order.

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4 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

During lockdown, I also did a 12(?) stage multi over several outings. That one was in order, but being all in one area with all WPs in cycling distance, that didn't matter. I have done multis where all stages are shown and you can do the stages in any order.

 

Yes, we all know that a multi can be set up like that. But you skipped over the point - Just because you know a waypoint is there doesn't mean you, effectively, have a right to be able to do it just because it's there. If it annoys you that much, ignore it, or plan to do it like you would any other [sequential] multi-stage cache (which, at least here, is much more the norm than multis with many stages you can do at any time in any order).

 

 

4 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Some people argue that each WP of an AL is equivalent of a cache. It isn't when with individual caches you can find them individually in any order. With ALs that you have to do in an order, that makes them more like the multicaches where you need to do the WPs in order.

 

Exactly. So don't treat a sequential waypoint/location you WANT to do out of order like it's a cache or multi-stage waypoint you SHOULD be able to do.

I'd be bothered too if it's an AL that doesn't need to be sequential. But that's beside the point - for you own sanity, if it bugs you that much, see above.

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21 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

the point

The point was this was in lockdown and my travel was restricted. (Otherwise I couldn't care less and have done multis I drove thousands of kms for). I just mentioned it, because I found it frustrating I couldn't just get in my car and do the earlier ones on the other side of town, so I could then do the WPs in walking or cycling distance to me in the allowed hour of exercise. So close and yet so far! Many ALs have no reason not to be able to find the WPs in any order, and it would have been nice to be able to do those WPs in my very restricted area.

 

One thing I took from this is if I make an AL I will allow people to find the WPs in any order, and if I have a bonus, I will have a formula to get the bonus coordinates, rather than give them in the last WP.

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1 hour ago, Goldenwattle said:

The point was this was in lockdown and my travel was restricted. (Otherwise I couldn't care less and have done multis I drove thousands of kms for). I just mentioned it, because I found it frustrating I couldn't just get in my car and do the earlier ones on the other side of town, so I could then do the WPs in walking or cycling distance to me in the allowed hour of exercise. So close and yet so far! Many ALs have no reason not to be able to find the WPs in any order, and it would have been nice to be able to do those WPs in my very restricted area.

 

Agreed. So in your case, it's worse that you saw there were untouchable locations, but only when viewing that specific AL. It would have been better had you not known the locations were there. Easy way - don't look at the AL. Then it's just like a multi with a waypoint near you you wouldn't know existed.  Not much else you can do, except rant at the ALO for making it sequential if there's no good reason... *shrug*

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6 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Agreed. So in your case, it's worse that you saw there were untouchable locations, but only when viewing that specific AL. It would have been better had you not known the locations were there. Easy way - don't look at the AL. Then it's just like a multi with a waypoint near you you wouldn't know existed.  Not much else you can do, except rant at the ALO for making it sequential if there's no good reason... *shrug*

 

I guess this boils down to the dichotomy of the AL owner who wants to tell a story which doesn't make much sense if done in random order (a bit like trying to make sense of a novel by reading the chapters in random order) and the player who just wants a quick smiley at one or two of the locations. At least with a multi, there's no reward for just visiting a waypoint so they tend to only be done by those interested in the whole story.

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3 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I guess this boils down to the dichotomy of the AL owner who wants to tell a story which doesn't make much sense if done in random order

Not always. In fact, most of those I have done in order, had no reason for the order. It comes down simply that they want to supply the whole coordinates in the last WP. No other reason.  That's fine if the WPs are close together. For those that WPs are not close together, they could have made a simple formula, as some other AL makers have done instead, where you need to find all the WPs, but order doesn't matter.

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3 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Not always. In fact, most of those I have done in order, had no reason for the order. It comes down simply that they want to supply the whole coordinates in the last WP. No other reason.  That's fine if the WPs are close together. For those that WPs are not close together, they could have made a simple formula, as some other AL makers have done instead, where you need to find all the WPs, but order doesn't matter.

I like @Dr.Scissortail suggestion to put a notice on the AL when it's being created, to not make it sequential JUST to provide coordinates for a bonus cache.

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8 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Not always. In fact, most of those I have done in order, had no reason for the order. It comes down simply that they want to supply the whole coordinates in the last WP. No other reason.  That's fine if the WPs are close together. For those that WPs are not close together, they could have made a simple formula, as some other AL makers have done instead, where you need to find all the WPs, but order doesn't matter.

 

There's a sequential one on Sydney's North Head that I did a while back. It doesn't have a bonus cache but the waypoints are set out in a 3.5km loop starting and ending at the car park. While I don't know for sure, I suspect it might have been made sequential so that when someone completes the early waypoints the app moved to the next one in sequence rather than jumping to the closest one which may have been on the other side of the loop. That was something I was concerned about when considering a loop walk down one side of a gully to the bridge at the bottom and then back up the other side, since if it was non-sequential the app would have been constantly telling people to try to cross the gully (not a good idea as it's pretty steep with a fast-flowing stream at the bottom). In the end I abandoned that idea and instead went for the 5 Lands Walk.

 

That one at North Head would be fine for someone driving there and parking in the car park, as following the sequence is about the only logical way it could be done, but I came across on the ferry and the wharf is at the furthest point on the loop from the car park, resulting in a lot of doubling back on some fairly steep hills. There was no narrative being told along the way so for me it would have been a lot easier if it had been non-sequential, I would have still done the loop but started and ended at what is normally the midpoint.

Edited by barefootjeff
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On 11/28/2021 at 4:57 PM, Max and 99 said:

I like @Dr.Scissortail suggestion to put a notice on the AL when it's being created, to not make it sequential JUST to provide coordinates for a bonus cache.

I see no reason for GS to recommend against something for no reason other than it's not to some people's taste. If a CO goes to the trouble of putting out an AL, I think he should be encouraged to do it however he wants to. The CO can design the AL to be intentionally annoying for all I care. I might not enjoy the joke, but that doesn't remotely suggest to me that GS should tell the CO he can't or shouldn't do what he wants to do.

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