New Italia category

[IlGattito]

Hi, I'm from Italy and have visited a few waymarks of places I have visited during my travels and discovered the categories of country's heritage and search for the Italian one and doesn't exist.

I contacted users that manage some of these to create one for Italia and rzalas told me that I should start by place my idea in the forum.

[+T0SHEA]

Other than World Heritage sites (31) (UNESCO),  what other sites will be included?

 

World Heritage Sites Aeolian Islands / Isole Aeolie Sicily, Italy
World Heritage Sites Arab-Norman Palermo and the Cathedral Churches of Cefalú and Monreale: The Palermo Cathedral, Palermo, Sicilia, Italy
World Heritage Sites Archaeological Area of Agrigento - Agrigento, Sicily, Italy
World Heritage Sites Necropolis of Pantalica Sicily, Italy
World Heritage Sites Archeological site of Paestum - Italy
World Heritage Sites Basilica di San Vitale - Ravenna, Emilia-Romagna, Italy
World Heritage Sites Boboli Gardens - Florence, Italy
World Heritage Sites Castel del Monte - Italy
World Heritage Sites Dolomiten, Italy
World Heritage Sites Etruscan Necropolises of Cerveteri and Tarquinia, Italy
World Heritage Sites Ferrara, City of the Renaissance, and its Po Delta Emilia–Romagna , Italy
World Heritage Sites Historic Centre of Naples - Campania, Italy
World Heritage Sites Historic Centre of the City of Pienza, Toscana - Italy
World Heritage Sites La basilique Saint-Apollinaire-le-Neuf (Basilica di Sant' Apollinare Nuovo) - Ravenna, Italy 
World Heritage Sites Mausoleum of Theodoric - Ravenna - Italy
World Heritage Sites Mount Etna - Sicily Italy
World Heritage Sites Palazzo San Callisto - Roma, Italy
World Heritage Sites Residences of the Royal House of Savoy - Palazzina di Caccia di Stupinigi - Nichelino, Italy
World Heritage Sites Residences of the Royal House of Savoy - Palazzo Madama - Turin, Italy
World Heritage Sites Residences of the Royal House of Savoy - Palazzo Reale - Turin, Italy
World Heritage Sites Sacro Monte Calvario - Domodossola, Piemonte, Italy
World Heritage Sites Sacro Monte del Rosario di Varese Varese, Lombardy, Italy
World Heritage Sites Sacro Monte della Beata Vergine, Oropa, Italy
World Heritage Sites Sacro Monte della SS.Trinità, Ghiffa Verbania, Piedmont, Italy
World Heritage Sites The monumental area with the monastic complex of San Salvatore-Santa Giulia, Brescia, Italy
World Heritage Sites The Sanctuary of San Michele - Monte Sant'Angelo, Italy
World Heritage Sites The Sassi and the Park of the Rupestrian Churches of Matera - Matera, Italy
World Heritage Sites The Trulli of Alberobello, Italy
World Heritage Sites Val D'Orcia
World Heritage Sites Villa d' Este, Tivoli, Lazio, Italy
World Heritage Sites Villa Romana del Casale - Piazza Armerina, Italy
 

[+fi67]

The forum is the place to start, razalas was right. And national heritage site categories should be no problem, because we have a lot of undoubted precedents.

 

The first requirement is an official reference. There must be an official list (or several lists) of protected heritage sites. Can you give us a link to those lists?

 

Then you need a group of officers and you need a category description.

 

You can steal and adapt a category description from the many similar categories that already exist and then discuss the details here in the forum, this usually works quite well.

 

But I currently see a little problem regarding a group managing this category. As far as I know, there is no domestic Italian Waymarking activity. Italy does not that bad in the statistics, but only because of tourists. And you need a group of at least three premium members to manage that category. As I see, you are not a premium member, and I have not come across any other Italian premium member either. So, who is going to manage that category with enough knowledge of the country and its history?

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by fi67
Typo

[IlGattito]

Hi,

Italia has a list it's the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali"  that has a database of the "Beni architettonici e paesaggistici" (Architectural and landscape sites) that would be part of the category.

 

Yes razalas explained that, i'm willing to be a premium member and told me that i could use the forum to recruit officers, and offered to help as officer (thank you for the help and explanations)

[IlGattito]

forgot to explain that the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali"  that has other databases of heritage but are of items such as paintings or archaeological items found.

[+T0SHEA]

Castles (21)  Cathedrals (32)  Historic Forts (11)   Pre-Victorian Historic Homes (19)   World Heritage sites (31) (total 114)

 

Castles Burg Taufers - Taufers - Trentino - Italy

Castles Castel Nuova (Maschio Angioino) - Campania, Italy

Castles Castel St. Angelo: The Hadrian's Mausoleum in Roma, Italy

Castles Castella della Montegrossi, Montegrossi, Italy

Castles Castello di San Giusto - Trieste, Italy

Castles Castello Estense - Ferrara, Emilia-Romagna, Italy

Castles Castello Gavone - Finalborgo, LI, Italy

Castles Castello Scaligero - Villafranca di Verona, Italy

Castles Castello Sforzesco - Milan, Italy

Castles Castelo Di Carlo V - Lecce, Italy

Castles Castle Miramare, Italy

Castles Forte di San Leo - San Leo - ER - Italy

Castles Palazzo d'Accursio - Bologna - ER - Italy

Castles Palazzo dei Papi - Viterbo (VT), Italia

Castles Palazzo Ducale - Venezia, Italy

Castles Palazzo Farnese - Gradoli (VT), Italia

Castles Palazzo Reale - Milano (MI), Italia

Castles Rocca Maggiore Castle - Assisi, Italy

Castles Rocca Monaldeschi - Bolsena, VT, Italy

Castles Schloss Tirol / Tirol Castle - Meran, Italy

Castles Swabian Castle - Trani, Italy

Cathedrals Archbasilica of St. John Lateran - Rome, Italy

Cathedrals Basilica cattedrale metropolitana della Madonna della Lettera - Messina, Italy

Cathedrals Brixner Dom - Trentine-Alto Adige, Italy

Cathedrals Cathedral of Naples - Naples, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale della Madonna della Bruna e di Sant'Eustachio - Matera, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di San Cassiano - Comacchio, Emilia-Romagna, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di San Giorgio - Ferrara, Emilia-Romagna, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di San Giusto - Trieste, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di San Lorenzo - Genoa, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di San Nicola Pellegrino - Trani, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di San Pietro - Bologna, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di Santa Maria Annunziata - Otranto, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di Santa Maria Assunta - Altamura, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di Santa Maria Assunta - Como, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di Santa Maria Assunta - Troia, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di Santa Maria Matricolare - Verona, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale di Sant'Agata - Catania, Italy

Cathedrals Cattedrale Santa Maria Assunta - Bolzano, Trentino-Alto Adige, Italy

Cathedrals Civitavecchia Cathedral - Civitavecchia, Lazio, Italy

Cathedrals Duomo dell'Assunzione della Vergine / Cathedral of the Assumption of Virgin Mary (Lecce, Apulia, Italy)

Cathedrals Duomo di Cefalù / Cathedral at Cefalù (Sicily, Italy)

Cathedrals Duomo di Cremona / Cremona Cathedral - Cremona, Italy

Cathedrals Duomo di Milano (Milan Cathedral), Milano, Italy

Cathedrals Duomo di San Giovanni - Turin, Italy

Cathedrals Duomo di San Leo - San Leo - ER - Italy

Cathedrals Duomo di Siena - Siena, Italia

Cathedrals Duomo di Taormina - Taormina, Italy

Cathedrals Duomo di Trento - La Cattedrale di San Vigilio - Trento, Italy

Cathedrals Duomo of San Gimignano - San Gimignano, Italy

Cathedrals Palermo Cathedral - Palermo, Sicily, Italy

Cathedrals Santa Maria del Fiore Cathedral, Firenze (Florence), Italy

Cathedrals St Marks Cathedral Venice Italy

Historic Forts Castello Normanno-Svevo - Bari, Italy

Historic Forts Castello Sforzesco - Milan, Italy

Historic Forts Forte di Belvedere - Florence, Italy

Historic Forts Forte di San Leo - San Leo - ER - Italy

Historic Forts Forte Lago Predil, Italy

Historic Forts Fortezza Franzensfeste, Trentino-Alto Adige, Italy

Historic Forts Sperre Gomagoi - Italy

Historic Forts Werk Hensel - Malborghetto, Italy

Historic Forts Werk Landro - Schluderbach, Italy

Historic Forts Werk Mitterberg - Sexten, Italy

Historic Forts Werk Plätzwiese - Plätzwiese - Trentino–Alto Adige, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Nomi Pesciolini Palace - San Gimignano, Italia

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Antinori - Frorence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Dardinelli-Fenzi - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Davanzati - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo della Carovana - Pisa, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo dell'Orologio - Pisa, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Gambacorti - Pisa, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Gondi - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Gori Pannilini - Siena, Italia

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Larderel - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Medici Riccardi - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Mozzi - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Niccolini - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Piccolomini - Siena, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Reale - Pisa, Italia

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Sansedoni - Siena, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Strozzi - Florence, Italy

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Tolomei - Siena, Italia

Pre-Victorian Historic Homes Palazzo Uguccioni - Florence, Italy

[+lumbricus]

Maps (civis.bz.it)

-> Monumentbrowser - Suche | Denkmalpflege | Landesverwaltung | Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol

 

 

-> Monumentbrowser - Suche | Denkmalpflege | Landesverwaltung | Autonome Provinz Bozen - Südtirol

So a quick search gave a wonderul database for Alto-Adige.

Edited June 23, 2021 by lumbricus
example added

[+SearchN]

Hello, I'm all for your category and will get my vote. It's very similar to one I started for Historic United Methodist Sites. It too has individual numbered sites and clusters all referenced on the UMC website. It was a hard road to get it going and approved but in the end it was. It has since had a positive response and still more come in from time to time. Feel free to have a look and maybe it can help with a few ideas. David

[+ScroogieII]

I suspect that what IlGattito is after would be on the order of Italian National Historic Sites, i.e. sites listed on an Italian National Heritage Register, such as:

 

Austrian and Swiss National Heritage Sites

Canadian National Historic Sites

Monuments Historiques Français

Norway Historical Sites

Portuguese Historical Markers

Rijksmonumenten - Dutch National Monuments

 

Is that not the ideal here?

It does seem that the General catalogue of Cultural Heritage is, indeed, the proper site, though not being conversant in Italian, I can't say for certain.

Such a category, properly written, should be an automatic YEA in peer review.

Keith

[IlGattito]

Hi, that is it in recent years the government made a law to the creation of a national database managed by the ministry of culture that is the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali" that translate to "General Catalog of Cultural Heritage".
 

[+fi67]

I guess you want to restrict the category to the subset of "Beni architettonici e paesaggistici" with over 77 000 entries, currently.

 

This is a very similar situation as in the French category that also references a site with eight different heritage databases and and restricts entries to the architectural database (called Mérimée): Monuments Historiques Français

 

Are there additional regional lists? Does the site posted by lumbricus contain the same items just for one region or are there additional objects on a lower level (like Grade II in England or B objects in Switzerland)? And do you want to include those as well (only if different, of course)?

 

There are plenty of national heritage categories, you can use as a template four yours. I would suggest to concentrate on newer ones, because the accepted standards have changed over the years and some of the older ones are quite sloppy when it comes to exact requirements, naming conventions, variables, language notes and similar topics.

 

ScroogieII posted a first list. Here are some more (still not complete, I guess):

 

Deutsche Denkmallisten - German Monument Registers

Australian Heritage Sites

Belgium Monument Registers

Património Português (Portuguese Heritage)

Spanish Heritage

U.S. National Register of Historic Places

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+ScroogieII]

5 hours ago, fi67 said:

This is a very similar situation as in the French category that also references a site with eight different heritage databases and and restricts entries to the architectural database (called Mérimée): Monuments Historiques Français

 

Are there additional regional lists?

 

I believe you are correct in that I do remember that there were other lists in a sidebar on the General catalogue of Cultural Heritage page.

Now I assume, again, that IlGattito should be good to go with that architectural list, consisting of 77071 entries.

Do it, IlGattito, get it to peer review and, though I may never again make it to Italy, you'll have my YEA vote.

Keith

[+lumbricus]

We will visit Itlay end of August so I could contribute some in September. 

[+fi67]

10 hours ago, ScroogieII said:

 

Now I assume, again, that IlGattito should be good to go with that architectural list, consisting of 77071 entries.

Do it, IlGattito, get it to peer review and, though I may never again make it to Italy, you'll have my YEA vote.

Keith

 

I don't think there is any substantial opposition. This category is going to be a clear winner. It's not "if", it's "how".

 

An old one, but as IlGattito is new to this: If you don't require quality, you won't get it. There are some waymarkers who really work on their submissions, but some will never go just one step above the absolute minimum.

 

Three original sentences and two daylight pictures created by the waymarker are not really much, but it is an accepted standard in many categories. This can be expected and it would not surprise a traveling waymarker coming home just to find out some pictures are missing and some research cannot be done from home.

 

I am not a friend of too many variables. They are useful, because they clearly define what details we are looking for, but they have tendency to lower the quality of the long description. It's already in the variables, so why should I write about it. The "codice di catalogo nazionale" is an obvious one. Then maybe the time of construction, but NOT a date field. It is much better to be able to write a century or a time span over many years in a text field. And, very bad especially for Italy, those date fields do not allow dates before the year 1000.

 

It does not feel right to not accept the national language in a national category, so Italian only submissions need to be accepted (I know, there are also German speaking areas, as well as some other minority language areas). But because of the many tourists, English only should be accepted as well. Multi-lingual entries are always welcome, be should not be required.

[IlGattito]

20 hours ago, fi67 said:

I guess you want to restrict the category to the subset of "Beni architettonici e paesaggistici" with over 77 000 entries, currently.

 

This is a very similar situation as in the French category that also references a site with eight different heritage databases and and restricts entries to the architectural database (called Mérimée): Monuments Historiques Français

Yes, the other are mainly of objects and not locations.

 

Are there additional regional lists? Does the site posted by lumbricus contain the same items just for one region or are there additional objects on a lower level (like Grade II in England or B objects in Switzerland)? And do you want to include those as well (only if different, of course)?

In the past some of the regions have their own list (not all, and some after the creation of the national catalog have disable it and link to the national) the purpose of this new national catalog is to compile in one place and standardize the information for all the regions.

 

There are plenty of national heritage categories, you can use as a template four yours. I would suggest to concentrate on newer ones, because the accepted standards have changed over the years and some of the older ones are quite sloppy when it comes to exact requirements, naming conventions, variables, language notes and similar topics.

 

ScroogieII posted a first list. Here are some more (still not complete, I guess):

 

Deutsche Denkmallisten - German Monument Registers

Australian Heritage Sites

Belgium Monument Registers

Património Português (Portuguese Heritage)

Spanish Heritage

U.S. National Register of Historic Places

 

I'm reading carefully all of them, thank you. 

 

 

[IlGattito]

On 6/24/2021 at 5:18 AM, ScroogieII said:

I suspect that what IlGattito is after would be on the order of Italian National Historic Sites, i.e. sites listed on an Italian National Heritage Register, such as:

 

Austrian and Swiss National Heritage Sites

Canadian National Historic Sites

Monuments Historiques Français

Norway Historical Sites

Portuguese Historical Markers

Rijksmonumenten - Dutch National Monuments

 

Is that not the ideal here?

It does seem that the General catalogue of Cultural Heritage is, indeed, the proper site, though not being conversant in Italian, I can't say for certain.

Such a category, properly written, should be an automatic YEA in peer review.

Keith

 

Yes that's it, thamk you.

[IlGattito]

4 hours ago, fi67 said:

 

I don't think there is any substantial opposition. This category is going to be a clear winner. It's not "if", it's "how".

 

An old one, but as IlGattito is new to this: If you don't require quality, you won't get it. There are some waymarkers who really work on their submissions, but some will never go just one step above the absolute minimum.

 

Three original sentences and two daylight pictures created by the waymarker are not really much, but it is an accepted standard in many categories. This can be expected and it would not surprise a traveling waymarker coming home just to find out some pictures are missing and some research cannot be done from home.

Yes, of the categories I'm reading this seems to be the standard so I will go with it.

 

I am not a friend of too many variables. They are useful, because they clearly define what details we are looking for, but they have tendency to lower the quality of the long description. It's already in the variables, so why should I write about it. The "codice di catalogo nazionale" is an obvious one. Then maybe the time of construction, but NOT a date field. It is much better to be able to write a century or a time span over many years in a text field. And, very bad especially for Italy, those date fields do not allow dates before the year 1000.

I still have to check out the variables in others categories to see what to do.

 

It does not feel right to not accept the national language in a national category, so Italian only submissions need to be accepted (I know, there are also German speaking areas, as well as some other minority language areas). But because of the many tourists, English only should be accepted as well. Multi-lingual entries are always welcome, be should not be required.

That's seems a good option.

 

[IlGattito]

5 hours ago, fi67 said:

I am not a friend of too many variables. They are useful, because they clearly define what details we are looking for, but they have tendency to lower the quality of the long description. It's already in the variables, so why should I write about it. The "codice di catalogo nazionale" is an obvious one. Then maybe the time of construction, but NOT a date field. It is much better to be able to write a century or a time span over many years in a text field. And, very bad especially for Italy, those date fields do not allow dates before the year 1000.

 

I was reading the variables of other categories and I think to put two variables the link to database and id number.

[+ScroogieII]

IlGattito, I think you need to recruit fi67, if you haven't already. With him on board as assistant you should be able to cobble together a well written category in no time.

Keith

[+fi67]

I have accepted the invitation, but I must warn you. My Italian is not very good.

[+lumbricus]

Is there a map to see all the 77,000+ locations in the catalogo?

[+ScroogieII]

1 hour ago, lumbricus said:

Is there a map to see all the 77,000+ locations in the catalogo?

 

Yes, Andreas. There looks to be one on the Home Page. Just scroll down and you'll see the map. It seems to work pretty much the same as maps I've used in other countries.

 

One caveat. You have to right click the URL for the card as the map doesn't open it in a new tab and returning to the map page starts you back at the beginning, causing a lot of re-zooming

Keith

Edited June 26, 2021 by ScroogieII

[+lumbricus]

4 minutes ago, ScroogieII said:

 

Yes, Andreas. There looks to be one on the Home Page. Just scroll down and you'll see the map. It seems to work pretty much the same as maps I've used in other countries.

Keith

 

Thanks, but I can find nothing for Alto-Adige, also no location in Ravenna?

[+ScroogieII]

5 hours ago, lumbricus said:

 

Thanks, but I can find nothing for Alto-Adige, also no location in Ravenna?

 

DUH... ... You'll have to ask IlGattito about those. I'm just an ignorant Canuck...

 

... ... a little searching and: In the categories list on the page mentioned above, in regions select Emilia-Romagna, then search on Ravenna.

 ... ... For Alto-Adige, select Trentino -South Tyrol

Edited June 27, 2021 by ScroogieII

[+lumbricus]

1 hour ago, ScroogieII said:

...

... ... a little searching and: In the categories list on the page mentioned above, search in regions for Emilia-Romagna, then on Ravenna.

 ... ... For Alto-Adige, search on Trentino -South Tyrol

 

Almost perfect, but I would like to see a map with the 255 results for Ravenna. Is there a way?

[IlGattito]

Hi, sorry but at the moment there is no map.

[+lumbricus]

8 hours ago, IlGattito said:

Hi, sorry but at the moment there is no map.

 

Not so good and it looks like this catalogo has big gaps, some examples:

 

Chiesa di Santa Maria - Pomposa, Codigoro, Ferrara, Emilia-Romagna, Italy - Roman Catholic Churches on Waymarking.com -> built 874

 

I guess you have to do a very good recherche of online available lists/maps for all regiones and you should add all the links to your category description. Links to the databasa/maps for Alto-Adige for example.

[+fi67]

It was not a good idea to send the category to peer review now. I am very disappointed.

 

First, there are some obvious problems with the database. There is only one record in the region Trentino-Alto Adige (and not a very prominent one) and Zero in the region Aosta.

Why is this? Is the database unfinished and still in progress?

 

Do autonomous regions have their own independent databases?

They seem to have:

https://www.provinz.bz.it/kunst-kultur/denkmalpflege/monumentbrowser.asp

https://www.regione.vda.it/cultura/patrimonio/default_i.asp

but are they independent and what is their status in relation to the national database?

 

Are there also additional resources for the other regions? I have not checked yet.

 

 

[+lumbricus]

25 minutes ago, fi67 said:

...

There is only one record in the region Trentino-Alto Adige (and not a very prominent one) and Zero in the region Aosta.

Why is this? Is the database unfinished and still in progress?

...

 

"Trentino-Alto Adige" has only one record and "Alto Adige" (which has his own map system) has 0 records. Very strange. 

[IlGattito]

There is no problem in the data base and it's not strange, the national government made a law to the creation of the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali" that was created an is being implemented, in some regions the process is more advanced than others witch is normal. But I think that now with more than 77000 entries is a lot of locations to waymark. 

 

"The data currently present in the General Catalog of Cultural Heritage are provided by SIGECweb - General Catalog Information System, created with the aim of unifying and optimizing the processes associated with the cataloging of cultural heritage, ensuring the quality of the data produced and their compliance with national standards; the homogeneity of information is, in fact, the indispensable prerequisite for their immediate availability, correct use and sharing. In the coming months, the general catalog of cultural heritage will also include the data produced and collected by the regional documentation centers, which are currently managed and enhanced at the territorial level starting from those published in open format."

Translated from the Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali page.

[IlGattito]

Also the database will have constant additions to it as is in other countries data

[+ScroogieII]

Just realized the category had gone to peer review - Voted  (YEA) and read the comments.

I'm just absolutely astounded that folks would broach the "NON global" thing in a proposal for a National Heritage Register type of category!

 Many other countries already have a National Heritage Register style/type category. Essentially NONE even approach being global categories, for the simple reason that each deals with the heritage of their own country.

 

If other countries deserve a National Register category, so does Italy!!!!!!

Get over it!!!!

 

(Fortunately, there were precious few NAY votes cast.)

Keith

[+lumbricus]

9 hours ago, IlGattito said:

There is no problem in the data base and it's not strange, the national government made a law to the creation of the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali" that was created an is being implemented, in some regions the process is more advanced than others witch is normal. But I think that now with more than 77000 entries is a lot of locations to waymark. 

 

"The data currently present in the General Catalog of Cultural Heritage are provided by SIGECweb - General Catalog Information System, created with the aim of unifying and optimizing the processes associated with the cataloging of cultural heritage, ensuring the quality of the data produced and their compliance with national standards; the homogeneity of information is, in fact, the indispensable prerequisite for their immediate availability, correct use and sharing. In the coming months, the general catalog of cultural heritage will also include the data produced and collected by the regional documentation centers, which are currently managed and enhanced at the territorial level starting from those published in open format."

Translated from the Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali page.

 

I'm not a crossposter at the moment so I waymarked this castle as castle Castello di Castellano - Trentino-Alto Adige, Italy - Castles on Waymarking.com . But it doesn't feel right that I couldn't submit it to the Italien Heritage site because it's not listed in the catalogo which is the only source you accept. 

[+lumbricus]

On 6/23/2021 at 12:06 PM, lumbricus said:

Maps (civis.bz.it)

...

 

Not sure if you answered my question already. Will you accept all records from the map (see link), even if these are not included (at the moment) in the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali"?

[+SearchN]

I voted to approve and made the following public comment.

 

I approve. Though not global they would make valid and interesting waymarks. There are plenty of other categories that are limited only to certain countries and some all the way down to regions. Route 66 being an example, it only traveled through certain states here in the US. Here is a quote from the "Global" criteria. "We can afford to be somewhat flexible with the application of this guideline for truly outstanding categories." This category I believe could possibly meet that exception.

David

[+lumbricus]

[IlGattito]

Hi,

It seems that the category is already working, thank you every one for the help and support .

 

As is explain in the category only the entries on the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali" are accepted. It would be the opposite of the goal of the creation of the Catalog if was accepted .

[+lumbricus]

6 hours ago, IlGattito said:

...

As is explain in the category only the entries on the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali" are accepted. It would be the opposite of the goal of the creation of the Catalog if was accepted .

 

Have fun, I will not contribute. Wonderful structures/buildings listed in a second great database (maybe some more) are not accepted? Fine tuning is possible all the time!

[+fi67]

16 hours ago, IlGattito said:

As is explain in the category only the entries on the "Catalogo generale dei Beni Culturali" are accepted. It would be the opposite of the goal of the creation of the Catalog if was accepted .

This is total nonsense, and I think you know that very well.

 

The goal of the category should be to present heritage sites, and not to recreate a single catalogue that - by the way - already exists. If there are additional *official* sources, there is no sane reason to not accept them.

The Austrian and Swiss category accepts 62 different lists if i remember correctly, and for the German category we don't even have the slightest idea how many lists there are. They work very well. I guess, better than they would with a too narrow scope.

Edited June 30, 2021 by fi67
Typo

[+fi67]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:06 PM, IlGattito said:

Also the database will have constant additions to it as is in other countries data

I have my doubts. This is Italy, after all.

 

Fast forward twenty years. My guess: the catalogue is still incomplete and the responsible committee has been spending the budget of the last five years discussing a new background color for the web site. Without a result, of course.

 

There are other sources that are official (i.e also published by a governmental agency) and that contain lots of items, that are not yet present in the central database. Why don't you want to include those?

 

It is not against the goals of the category. And if it was, this is no crime: it was you, who defined them, you can expand them. They are not God-given, even if you try to create the impression they are for some weird reason.

Edited July 4, 2021 by fi67

[+ScroogieII]

19 hours ago, fi67 said:

I have my doubts. This is Italy, after all

 

My apologies to IlGattito, but I just had to chuckle a bit at that. 'Nuff said on that.

However, fi67's further comments are not totally without merit; some I see as being meritorious.

Keith

Edited July 4, 2021 by ScroogieII

[IlGattito]

Hi, sorry it took so long to answer but as I didn’t know the other Heritage categories only read the requirements as an example to the Italian category, so I thought it was better to get to know them to make an informed decision.

 

After getting to know them the conclusion i reached was the following:

 

France - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database) 

Portugal - Has a national heritage registert and uses only it. (Searchable database)

Spain - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database)

Austria - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Not a searchable database, searchable pdf by region)

Liechtenstein - Don’t know, the link in the category doesn't work.

Switzerland - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Not a searchable database, searchable pdf by region and importance)

Netherlands - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database)

Germany - Doesn’t have a national heritage register, uses regional registers.

Belgium - Doesn’t have a national heritage register, uses regional registers.

 

So all the countries that have a national heritage register uses only it. Only two use more than one register, the ones that don't have a national register.

 

So the correct thing to do is maintain the category as was accepted:

Italy - (Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database)

 

Thank you for all your help.

[+PISA-caching]

Just so that I understand: For example: The province Alto Adige has a database of their own with around 5,000 entries, but only 1 in the central database. And they are supposed to take their 5,000 locations and add them to the central database. And before they do that, you will not accept waymarks from there, right? That leads to the question: Do you want to create a copy of the central database (and if so: what for?) or are you trying to create a ressource, where waymarkers have ONE category for all the heritage sites in Italy? 

 

In my opinion it doesn't really matter, what other countries are doing. They should just be a pattern, not the rule. If there are multiple official(!) sources today, you should accept them. And if - one day - the provice Alto Adige has all their sites in the central database, they will still have their own on their website (with two languages). So, let us know, if there is a special reason, why you won't accept the other databases too. And please explain, why a waymarker should take a look at the new category and not at the (complete) central database.

 

Edited to add: I would understand your strategy, if f.e. only 3,000 of the ~5,000 monuments in Monumentbrowser - Ricerca | Beni culturali | Amministrazione provinciale | Provincia autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige would qualify for the central database. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by PISA-caching

[+fi67]

On 7/5/2021 at 3:36 PM, IlGattito said:

Hi, sorry it took so long to answer but as I didn’t know the other Heritage categories only read the requirements as an example to the Italian category, so I thought it was better to get to know them to make an informed decision.

 

After getting to know them the conclusion i reached was the following:

 

France - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database) 

Portugal - Has a national heritage registert and uses only it. (Searchable database)

Spain - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database)

Austria - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Not a searchable database, searchable pdf by region)

Liechtenstein - Don’t know, the link in the category doesn't work.

Switzerland - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Not a searchable database, searchable pdf by region and importance)

Netherlands - Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database)

Germany - Doesn’t have a national heritage register, uses regional registers.

Belgium - Doesn’t have a national heritage register, uses regional registers.

 

So all the countries that have a national heritage register uses only it. Only two use more than one register, the ones that don't have a national register.

 

So the correct thing to do is maintain the category as was accepted:

Italy - (Has a national heritage register and uses only it. (Searchable database)

 

Thank you for all your help.

Your research has some merits, but it completely misses the important point.

 

The categories that concetrate on a single central list are from countries that do have a complete central list. Italy does not qualify for that club yet.

 

It has a central list, that is true, but this list looks like being in a horribly poor condition. At least two regions are completely missing and I have no idea about the quality of the rest.

 

This list is in (early) progress, and some fine day it may be complete, we don't know when this will be, if ever. On the other hand, some of the regions have well maintained resources, that are currently not in the central database.

 

I am an officer and founding member of two other national heritage categories. I am very sure, your strategy is a blatant mistake.