Not permitted logs are allowed on adventure lab app

[+the Seagnoid]

A standard geocaching rule implemented many years ago is that cache owners are not able to log finds on their own caches. The website and API were modified to enforce this .

 

The Adventure Lab application allows lab cache owners to log finds on their own lab caches. Could we please get this fixed (and perhaps delete all those self logged logs as the adventure lab app came out well after the rule was introduced)

[+arisoft]

If they have visited the coordinates and guessed the correct answer, why should they not be eligible for a find?

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by arisoft

[+Hügh]

You can't really "find" your own geocaches, because you know exactly where they are, and so there no need to "Find It." 

 

But that is not the case for an Adventure Lab. Being the Adventure owner doesn't prevent you from learning about the local history, admiring a pretty view, or appreciating an art installation.

 

It's a similar situation with events. Hosting an event doesn't prevent you from Attending it. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Hügh

[+Hügh]

11 hours ago, the Seagnoid said:

A standard geocaching rule

 

"Rule" probably isn't the word you meant to use. Sure, the practice is frowned upon... but that doesn't make it a "rule." The only mechanism preventing you is the website, and it's not like it's hard to work around—adopt it, log it, adopt it back.

 

Plus, why do you care so much if others log their own Adventures?

Edited May 30, 2021 by Hügh

[+barefootjeff]

15 minutes ago, Hügh said:

Being the Adventure owner doesn't prevent you from learning about the local history, admiring a pretty view, or appreciating an art installation.

 

But didn't the owner do all that before they published the AL?

[+Hügh]

12 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

But didn't the owner do all that before they published the AL?

 

They still learned about the history, saw the art, or whatever. To put it another way, they engaged in the "storytelling process" (or whatever it is the designers of this platform are pushing for.) Whether it was before/after doesn't really matter. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Hügh

[+barefootjeff]

2 minutes ago, Hügh said:

 

They still learned about the history, saw the art, or whatever. To put it another way, they engaged in the "storytelling process" (or whatever it is the designers of this platform are pushing for.) Whether it was before/after doesn't really matter. 

 

But they wrote the story! When creating my most recent physical cache, I solved the puzzle, hiked the trail, explored the cave and discovered the cavity where the cache is hidden. I even wrote on the logbook when I was labelling it. In short, I did everything a finder would have done, but no way should I get a smiley for that. That's not how the game works.

 

Attending events is different. The event owner didn't participate in a gathering of cachers at GZ in the process of creating the event page and preparing it for publication, they don't get to do that until the date of the event, along with everyone else.

[+Hügh]

6 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

But they wrote the story!

 

That sounds like an engagement in the storytelling process. Hence, the smiley is justified. 

 

6 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

When creating my most recent physical cache, I solved the puzzle, hiked the trail, explored the cave and discovered the cavity where the cache is hidden. I even wrote on the logbook when I was labelling it. In short, I did everything a finder would have done

 

You did everything that a finder would have done, except Find It. "It," referring to the container. Sure, you found the cavity and all, but not "it."

Edited May 30, 2021 by Hügh

[+barefootjeff]

2 minutes ago, Hügh said:

You did everything that a finder would have done, except Find It. "It," referring to the container. Sure, you found the cavity and all, but not "it."

 

So by that argument, the owner of an Earthcache, virtual or webcam should be able to log finds on their own caches. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

[+Hügh]

29 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

So by that argument, the owner of an Earthcache, virtual or webcam should be able to log finds on their own caches. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

 

(If I had the power to change the rules, yes. You'd have to ask a Lackey if you wanted to know why this isn't the case. That said...)

 

As has been established many times before, Adventure Labs are not like regular geocaches. They are hosted on an entirely different platform. We cannot expect the "rules" that govern that platform (and the logic behind those rules!) to be the same as the "rules" that govern the rest of Geocaching.

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, Hügh said:

As has been established many times before, Adventure Labs are not like regular geocaches. They are hosted on an entirely different platform. We cannot expect the "rules" that govern that platform (and the logic behind those rules!) to be the same as the "rules" that govern the rest of Geocaching.

 

Yes, it is a different game played on a different platform (which begs the question of why AL stages count as geocaching finds but that's another thread), but it's still the same basic tenet of creators setting a task for seekers to complete. Maybe it's just me, but it strikes me as self-serving and crass for those creators to get a reward for completing their own tasks. A bit like sending Christmas cards to yourself so you can gloat over how many you've received.

 

Oh, and if they took away the incentive of getting geocaching smileys for completing AL stages, I can't help wondering how many owners would still want to be completing their own ALs.

[+Goldenwattle]

58 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Oh, and if they took away the incentive of getting geocaching smileys for completing AL stages, I can't help wondering how many owners would still want to be completing their own ALs.

I suspect then that ALs might get no more finds than easier multicaches do. And those without a bonus cache less finds than those with a bonus cache.

[+Hügh]

 

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

the same basic tenet of creators setting a task for seekers to complete

 

Fair enough; I do like that framing of this whole game.

 

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

Maybe it's just me, but it strikes me as self-serving and crass for those creators to get a reward for completing their own tasks. A bit like sending Christmas cards to yourself so you can gloat over how many you've received.

 

Yes, it would be self-serving.

 

Then again, I have neither the time, the money, nor the energy to hunt down and berate those folks; that would just make me look like the psychotic one. If someone chooses to send themselves Christmas cards, I'd rather just move on and just let them have their fun. It doesn't impede my ability to collect and be proud about the 6,377 Christmas cards that I've received.

 

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

Oh, and if they took away the incentive of getting geocaching smileys for completing AL stages, I can't help wondering how many owners would still want to be completing their own ALs.

 

Most would not. I would; I use(d) the "Completion Log" as a "Owner Maintenance" on my ALC. I figured that it might work better than burying a sentence or two in the description.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Hügh

[+barefootjeff]

46 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I suspect then that ALs might get no more finds than easier multicaches do. And those without a bonus cache less finds than those with a bonus cache.

 

My Wreck of the Maitland AL has had eight people complete it since it went live last September, compared to nine finds on a multi with similar terrain and distance to be traversed (GC8BXVN). The multi was published in August 2019, so it has an extra year on the AL, but all but two of its finds were over a year ago so I think it's a reasonable like-for-like comparison.

 

I delete my AL finds from my geocaching statistics (or at least I did until the current Science of Discovery promotion, and will delete those I've made during that once it's over), so there's no smiley incentive for me to do them, I just do them for the enjoyment. Likewise this coming Sunday I'll be joining a group caching trip around Mangrove Mountain, but the targeted caches are all either ones I own or ones I've already found so it'll be a smiley-less day for me but I don't care, it'll still be a fun caching day out with good friends. So I suppose I must be weird, or perhaps not a proper cacher.

[+the Seagnoid]

11 hours ago, Hügh said:

 

"Rule" probably isn't the word you meant to use. Sure, the practice is frowned upon... but that doesn't make it a "rule." The only mechanism preventing you is the website, and it's not like it's hard to work around—adopt it, log it, adopt it back.

 

Plus, why do you care so much if others log their own Adventures?

"Rule" is exactly the word I meant to use. Logging ones own geocaches was frowned on so much that Groundspeak modified the API and website to prevent it. By specifically disallowing own logs they effectively made it a rule. I'm just surprised that they did not follow their own policy.

[+cerberus1]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:58 AM, the Seagnoid said:

A standard geocaching rule implemented many years ago is that cache owners are not able to log finds on their own caches. The website and API were modified to enforce this .

The Adventure Lab application allows lab cache owners to log finds on their own lab caches. Could we please get this fixed (and perhaps delete all those self logged logs as the adventure lab app came out well after the rule was introduced)

 

I agree.  This is the main reason we aren't doing any... Log your own, and multiple finds on one "cache".  Not sure if you can still do 'em at home...

The old "logging your own cache every time you did maintenance" was my favorite to laugh at. 

 - Especially when they complained of "stats" not correct in these forums.      

[+JL_HSTRE]

If the person who created an Adventure Lab can log a Find (or more accurately 5 Finds) on it that's a serious oversight by Groundspeak. 

 

Adventure Labs you created show up on your profile under your owned caches.

 

Events are an exception, mostly I suspect because it is possible to host an event (CO) without actually attending it. Also, the event log is "Attended" not "Found."

[+barefootjeff]

6 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Adventure Labs you created show up on your profile under your owned caches.

 

Actually they don't. There's a heading for them which shows the total number of stages owned but clicking on it just goes to the generic Get the App page.

 

 

As far as I know, there's no way to see a list of ALs another player owns, either on the website or in the AL app.

[+Jayeffel]

It may allowing your own finds comes form when setting ups the AL you can/should go to verify the coordinates and proximity setting work as I intended.  ButI agree it does seem odd you get a find recorded; I have not finished my ownAL per the logging info!

[+barefootjeff]

3 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

It may allowing your own finds comes form when setting ups the AL you can/should go to verify the coordinates and proximity setting work as I intended.  ButI agree it does seem odd you get a find recorded; I have not finished my ownAL per the logging info!

 

Test mode allows you to test all the functionality (yes, the geofencing is turned off in that mode but it still vibrates when you enter the fence so that can be tested) and it doesn't record your tests as a find.

[+Jayeffel]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:37 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Test mode allows you to test all the functionality (yes, the geofencing is turned off in that mode but it still vibrates when you enter the fence so that can be tested) and it doesn't record your tests as a find.

Maybe I was not in test mode as I thought when I checked some of them. Oh well. I guess the world will still turn.

[+frostengel]

I am surprised that logging the own ALs is defended so hard here. It is a bug, nothing else. Logging ones virtuals and earthcaches (as suggested above) would be the same kind of bug and luckily it is forbidden.

 

Geocaching is not about "points" but if you want to see it that way hiders get their "hiding point" (which is usually more worth than "finding points"), finders get their "finding points".

Events may be an exception because you plan it in advance ("hiding point") and you participate normally ("finding points"). I would still host event caches if I could not participate via log - luckily enough I can participate in real life not missing the fun. ;-))

[+arisoft]

4 hours ago, frostengel said:

Events may be an exception because you plan it in advance ("hiding point") and you participate normally ("finding points").

 

If events are ok, because the player participates "normally", what is the difference when a player participates in an Adventure Lab? The process of earning finds is the same regardless of the name in the owner field of the ALC.

[+frostengel]

5 minutes ago, arisoft said:

If events are ok, because the player participates "normally", what is the difference when a player participates in an Adventure Lab?

 

The only thing you have to do to get your "lab finding point" is to answer the question the owner has given you. The owner knows the answer so there is no action needed.

It is like searching for traditionals: you have to go to a place and search the cache. The owner knows where the cache is so he can't search it. With labs you go to ground zero and find the answer to a question. The owner knows this answer.

 

If you support lab logging you should support logging ones caches, too. There's no big difference so in my eyes both shouldn't be done. In someone else's eyes both should be accepted, that's a reasonable opinion, too. But the thread opener asks why one thing is allowed and the other isn't and that#s a fair point.

 

Jochen

 

PS: And again, if you could not log your own events that wouldn't be too bad, I suppose.

[+Lynx Humble]

52 minutes ago, frostengel said:

 

The only thing you have to do to get your "lab finding point" is to answer the question the owner has given you. The owner knows the answer so there is no action needed.

It is like searching for traditionals: you have to go to a place and search the cache. The owner knows where the cache is so he can't search it. With labs you go to ground zero and find the answer to a question. The owner knows this answer.

 

If you support lab logging you should support logging ones caches, too. There's no big difference so in my eyes both shouldn't be done. In someone else's eyes both should be accepted, that's a reasonable opinion, too. But the thread opener asks why one thing is allowed and the other isn't and that#s a fair point.

 

Jochen

 

PS: And again, if you could not log your own events that wouldn't be too bad, I suppose.

The main reason why Event Owner can log their own event cache is to be able to get souvenir.

 

But yeah I agree it make no sense to not be able to log your own cache but you can log your own lab cache...

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, frostengel said:

The only thing you have to do to get your "lab finding point" is to answer the question the owner has given you. The owner knows the answer so there is no action needed.

 

How does the owner know the answer without any action? For example, how the owner knows the number of windows without counting them? Could you explain, what action is unnecessary for the cache owner?

 

1 hour ago, frostengel said:

It is like searching for traditionals: you have to go to a place and search the cache.

 

Cache owner is not allowed to hide anything physical when creating an ALC. All stages caches must be virtual.

 

The main difference between a virtual cache and ALC is how the find is documented and verified. If the owner could log his own virtual cache, no one is actually verifying the find. When any ALC is found, Groudspeak is verifying that the player visited the coordinates and answered the question. I am more convinced that the owner has completed the task than anyone else.

[+frostengel]

55 minutes ago, arisoft said:

How does the owner know the answer without any action? For example, how the owner knows the number of windows without counting them?

 

The owner enters a solution in the system and this solution is the one giving the point.

Any owner of a normal geocache has to hide the cache. Why can't he log the find? With your argumentation I see no reason why I am not able to log my mystery caches - I solved the riddle, I had the logbook in my hand, I know the hide - but my lab cache (if I had one). And if this does not convince you, take the question above: why can't you log your virtual or earthcaches?

 

You just do not log your own caches - as simple as that. You were allowed to in the past but this has been taken away. Now it is back for only one cache type (except events). I don't see the reason why and that's the reason of this whole thread. The thread opener is absolutely right to ask this question.

 

I haven't logged any of my caches as long as it was allowed. And I haven't cared what others do. So feel free to log any of your caches that you are able to.

 

Jochen

[+arisoft]

2 minutes ago, frostengel said:

I haven't logged any of my caches as long as it was allowed. And I haven't cared what others do. So feel free to log any of your caches that you are able to.

 

I have logged one own traditional cache when it was moved by a fellow cacher and he posted me the new coordinates. It was a genuine find but later I deleted that log because it was only a curiosity for me. I have organized no events and published no adventure lab caches. I have no personal bias on this matter. I am just challenging the reasoning behind this claim.

 

 

[+Hügh]

7 hours ago, frostengel said:

And I haven't cared what others do.

 

If you don't care what others do, why do you care so much about preventing them from logging their own Adventures? Why police it?

 

If you really don't care what others do, then why make this contradicting statement? Seems like you do care about people logging their own caches.

 

7 hours ago, frostengel said:

You just do not log your own caches - as simple as that.

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Hügh

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, Hügh said:

If you don't care what others do, why do you care so much about preventing them from logging their own Adventures? Why police it?

 

To me it comes down to the fundamental philosophy of the game. As I see it, a cache (or AL) is a gift from the owner to the community, created and maintained for the enjoyment of other players. Never mind arisoft's technicalities of what consitutes finding something and what doesn't, it's a much deeper question that strikes at the core of the game. Even when the website allowed owners to log finds on their caches, the guidelines always said this was frowned upon. It has always seemed a pretty tacky thing to do.

 

I'd be curious to know whether allowing owner finds on ALs is an oversight or by design. If it's the latter and is something HQ is encouraging owners to do, I guess I'll just have to add it to all the other individual-over-community things I don't like about ALs.

[+Hügh]

38 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

To me it comes down to the fundamental philosophy of the game. As I see it, a cache (or AL) is a gift from the owner to the community, created and maintained for the enjoyment of other players. ... it's a much deeper question that strikes at the core of the game. Even when the website allowed owners to log finds on their caches, the guidelines always said this was frowned upon. It has always seemed a pretty tacky thing to do.

 

A gift to the community is a nice way to describe it. I try to place my geocaches (though I currently own only one) to reward those who complete a challenging hike or something.

 

However, I'm generally against people "frowning upon" others. Just let the people who want to be tacky, be tacky.

 

38 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I'd be curious to know whether allowing owner finds on ALs is an oversight or by design. If it's the latter and is something HQ is encouraging owners to do, I guess I'll just have to add it to all the other individual-over-community things I don't like about ALs.

 

I doubt that they're "encouraging" owners to log their own Adventures; I've never seen it advertised anywhere. But it sure does seem like something they would have fixed should this have been unintended behavior! After all, it should be as simple as sticking a if (the Owner's guid == the Finder's guid) { return 403 Forbidden; } block somewhere in the code.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Hügh

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

To me it comes down to the fundamental philosophy of the game.

 

For me, the fundamentals broke when getting finds from own event caches became official. Now the basic rule is what the application allows to do is ok.

[+barefootjeff]

49 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

For me, the fundamentals broke when getting finds from own event caches became official. Now the basic rule is what the application allows to do is ok.

 

I've never logged a Find on any event, my own or someone else's. The log type for those is Attended, which is what I did.

[+frostengel]

7 hours ago, Hügh said:

If you really don't care what others do, then why make this contradicting statement?

 

As I said - these are the rules but I don't make them. It's Groundspeak:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=38&pgid=80

 

Quote

 

7.17. Log your own cache or event

Log your own geocache

It is not possible to log your own cache as "found".

When you revisit your cache to drop a trackable or do maintenance, use the "Write Note" log type or “Owner maintenance”, respectively.

Log your own event

Unlike other cache types, we encourage event hosts to log their own event caches. This is especially important when there is a souvenir for an event — you deserve the souvenir too!

 

 

That's a basic rule of the game. And the thread opener asks why

Quote

The Adventure Lab application allows lab cache owners to log finds on their own lab caches.

and that's just a good question. Groundspeak tells us why they encourage someone to log their own events. But they don't tell us why they encourage someone to log their own labs. In fact they say - in this paragraph - don't log your own lab cache (as it is a geocache in their eyes) still they allow it.

 

Do whatever you want but the good question is still unanswered. And - as usual - "we do it to get the higher numbers" is a sad but possible answer here. But I don't get it if someone tries to explain that it is reasonable to log an own lab but not reasonable to log an own traditional. They are both the same kind of (un)reasonable, take your choice, I don't care here - but still no one has given the difference here and Groundspeak breaks their own rule.

Edited June 5, 2021 by frostengel
bad quotation

[+Mausebiber]

33 minutes ago, frostengel said:

7.17. Log your own cache or event

 

You are referring to Groundspeak's guideline of geocache but at the same time you are saying, Quote: "lab "caches" are no geocaches"

https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/358190-stop-adventure-labs/&do=findComment&comment=5885974

That contradicts itself.

 

[+frostengel]

2 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

You are referring to Groundspeak's guideline of geocache but at the same time you are saying, Quote: "lab "caches" are no geocaches"

https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/358190-stop-adventure-labs/&do=findComment&comment=5885974

 

That contradicts itself.

 

For me they aren't. But for Groundspeak they are: find a lab, get a "geocaching finding point".

 

I see three possible solutions to this dilemma:

1) Groundspeak tells us that lab caches aren't geocaches. Than you can log your own labs as the rule does not work here. But then they should be counted seperately. (I have found many lab caches, too, and am willing to give up these numbers.)

2) Groundspeak remains with lab caches counting to geocaches (my opinion does not have to be theirs). Than they contratict their own rule:

2a) They should give a reason why next to events lab caches make a difference in logging your own caches.

or 2b) They shouldn't allow you to log your own labs according to their own rule.

 

At the moment we have:

- labs are geocaches (according to Groundspeak, not according to me)

- you can't log your own geocaches (according to the guidelines)

- you can log your own lab caches

 

There is a logic problem and still no one has solved it.

[+Mausebiber]

15 minutes ago, frostengel said:

There is a logic problem and still no one has solved it.

 

Sorry, but I don't see a logic problem.  The guideline says: It is not possible to log your own cache as "found".

The guideline does NOT say "you may not log", or "you are not authorized to log" or something that explicit forbids logging of own cache, it just says, the system does not support this function.

For labcache the system is not preventing logging own cache, so it is OK to log.  I really don't see a problem.

If you don't want to log your own cache that's fine, but this is up to you, if others want to log their cache then this is up to them.

[+arisoft]

16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

17 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

For me, the fundamentals broke when getting finds from own event caches became official. Now the basic rule is what the application allows to do is ok.

 

I've never logged a Find on any event, my own or someone else's. The log type for those is Attended, which is what I did.

 

You have to admit that you got a find even you logged an attendance.

Edited June 5, 2021 by arisoft