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Physical Log vs. Online Log


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HI everyone,

I am curious ...... there is a really hot discussion going on in Germany about Logbooks.

Is it true that you are absolutley not allowed or that the owner can delete your log online, if you cant write your name in a Logbook

For example . your pen quit working, or you spontaneously found a cache while out and about ......

The Topic started because another cacher logged with a pic of the Logbook in their hands, because they didnt have a pen. 

Now they are telling newcomers that that is forbidden.

Excited about some Feedback !!

LG

Dyanih2

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This is what I do for my caches. I want proof of find. Usually it's the signature. However, I am willing to accept a photograph or some other proof. Otherwise I delete the log.

If I notice, checking their other logs, that someone continuously 'loses' their pen, or the pen didn't work, and not all on the same day, I might just delete that log. They are lying.

I usually though like to give a person the chance to prove they found the cache.

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7 minutes ago, Dyanih2 said:

HI everyone,

I am curious ...... there is a really hot discussion going on in Germany about Logbooks.

Is it true that you are absolutley not allowed or that the owner can delete your log online, if you cant write your name in a Logbook

For example . your pen quit working, or you spontaneously found a cache while out and about ......

The Topic started because another cacher logged with a pic of the Logbook in their hands, because they didnt have a pen. 

Now they are telling newcomers that that is forbidden.

Excited about some Feedback !!

LG

Dyanih2

Here's what Groundspeak says:

"A geocacher can log a physical cache online as “found” if they have signed the logbook."

(Challenge Caches are an exception).

 

4 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

This is what I do for my caches. I want proof of find. Usually it's the signature. However, I am willing to accept a photograph or some other proof. Otherwise I delete the log.

If I notice, checking their other logs, that someone continuously 'loses' their pen, or the pen didn't work, and not all on the same day, I might just delete that log. They are lying.

I usually though like to give a person the chance to prove they found the cache.

I agree with all above. When I see the same person continually say they didn't have a pen I will send them a friendly note letting them know I'm giving them one free pass, and assuming they can prove in some other way that they were actually there.  After that, they have to sign the physical log, no excuses, or their online log is deleted.

 

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2 hours ago, Dyanih2 said:

The Topic started because another cacher logged with a pic of the Logbook in their hands, because they didnt have a pen. 

As others have pointed out, if you sign the log, then your online log stands. If the CO deletes your online log, then you can appeal to Groundspeak and they will reinstate your log and lock it so that it cannot be deleted again.

 

If you provide alternative proof that you found the cache (a photo of the log, a description of the hide), then it's up to the CO. The CO may allow alternative proof where the log was not signed. Or the CO may not allow alternative proof.

 

Alternative proof isn't forbidden by Groundspeak. In a sense, it may be forbidden by a specific CO who always requires that the physical log be signed though.

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1 hour ago, niraD said:

If the CO deletes your online log, then you can appeal to Groundspeak

Hopefully they would take into account the photographic evidence of there being no signature, otherwise they are going against their own rules of, "A geocacher can log a physical cache online as “found” if they have signed the logbook."

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Hi everyone, 

Thank you so much for your feedback.

That is exactly how I see it too, yes you should sign the Logbook if you can , but its also "proof" if a pic is sent of the Log.

I guess they are just really stubborn when it comes  to rules here in Germany.

Miss being Home !!!!!!

Dyanih 2

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34 minutes ago, Dyanih2 said:

That is exactly how I see it too, yes you should sign the Logbook if you can , but its also "proof" if a pic is sent of the Log.

IMNSHO proofing the visit by a photo without signing the logbook is *an exception*. At least a little bit of an apology should be part of such a log.

It irks me a lot stumbling over such logs written in a way as if a photolog is completely normal and the way to go and might be even the prefered way.

 

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1 hour ago, Hynz said:

IMNSHO proofing the visit by a photo without signing the logbook is *an exception*. At least a little bit of an apology should be part of such a log.

It irks me a lot stumbling over such logs written in a way as if a photolog is completely normal and the way to go and might be even the prefered way.

 

Yes, an exception. I've gotten a Found It log from someone who didn't have a pen and stated in the log that I'd just have to accept his photo as proof. 

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Posted (edited)

A physically-signed log is a touchpoint of contact between you as a finder and all the people who came before.

 

Geocaching can be a solitary hobby if you want to play that way. I do. I also think it's important in this solitary hobby to maintain the 'community' of players. That's one of the reasons I ramble through these forums.

 

It's one thing to scroll down a cache page and see the name of someone you know, but it's an entirely different thing to page back through a paper log at a cache site and see that you're holding something that "Famous Cacher" once held, or even people whose logs you've read.

 

If you go to Independence Hall in Philadelphia where the American Declaration of Independence was signed, they tell you that Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy both gave speeches standing out in front of the building. Ho-hum; where's the giftshop?

 

BUT, then you go the front door and you find two plaques set into the bricks, far enough apart so that the newer one doesn't overshadow the older.

 

You can STAND on those and look around at the people as those two guys did, and the feeling is completely different.

 

So it is with physical cache logs. From the Oval Office Kennedy would have seen Lincoln's online log on the website and thought, "Hey, he was THERE, too."

 

But, when he went to Philly, unrolled the physical logstrip and saw Abe's scrawl on the same strip he was about to sign, he would have thought, "Hey, he was HERE, too!"

 

Bring a pen, sign the log. Don't be the 'picture guy'.

 

 

Kennedy_Plaque.jpg

Lincoln_Plaque.jpg

Edited by TeamRabbitRun
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9 hours ago, Dyanih2 said:

I am curious ...... there is a really hot discussion going on in Germany about Logbooks.

Is it true that you are absolutley not allowed or that the owner can delete your log online, if you cant write your name in a Logbook

For example . your pen quit working, or you spontaneously found a cache while out and about ......

The Topic started because another cacher logged with a pic of the Logbook in their hands, because they didnt have a pen. 

Now they are telling newcomers that that is forbidden.  Excited about some Feedback !!

 

2 hours ago, Dyanih2 said:

That is exactly how I see it too, yes you should sign the Logbook if you can , but its also "proof" if a pic is sent of the Log.

I guess they are just really stubborn when it comes  to rules here in Germany.

 

As others have said, it's really up to the CO.  "Stubbornness" has nothing to do with it though...     

If a log was full or soaked, and a finder took a pick of the log, including a NM with their Found It, we'd let that pass.     :)

  - We don't feel that a pic in any way is a replacement for, or excuses someone from one of the few simple rules in this hobby... to sign the log.

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When all else fails, I try to leave my mark of some kind on the physical log (in this case, my initials scratched with a stick) and mention it in the online log. I believe this should be acceptable even to the most finicky CO.

gn-log.jpg

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43 minutes ago, G0ldNugget said:

When all else fails, I try to leave my mark of some kind on the physical log (in this case, my initials scratched with a stick) and mention it in the online log. I believe this should be acceptable even to the most finicky CO.

 

My caching backpack has a good stock of pens and pencils, but that's of no use when I'm at GZ but my backpack isn't. On those occasions, for urban hides I've put the cache back unsigned, wandered off to find a shop that sold pens and returned to the cache to sign the log, and for bushland hides I've improvised with a twig or gumnut to make a reasonably legible mark and photographed that for good measure.

 

I've included a pencil in all my hides (or two on the busier ones, plus a sharpener) so I usually don't have to deal with "forgot my pen" logs, except one where the finder, upon realising they'd come without a pen, didn't even bother opening the cache. I've come across some quite small micros that have tiny pencils in them so really it's only nanos where that's not an option. Don't put a pen in the cache, though, as it will either leak all over everything or dry out in the summer heat and become useless.

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2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

for urban hides I've put the cache back unsigned, wandered off to find a shop that sold pens and returned to the cache to sign the log

Last year I was in Cairns walking about caching and my pen and then the back-up pen ran out of ink. Luckily, Cairns being a tourist town, there were plenty of souvenir shops which sold pens as souvenirs, so I went off to buy a pen before continuing.

Another occasion I signed in charcoal, but because that rubs off, included a photograph in my log. (My geocaching companion did too, although we had different methods.) I have rarely though not had a pen. If I do forget the pen (rarely), I take a photograph and send it to the CO before logging, and wait for their permission to log. I have never been refused. If the CO doesn't reply in a couple of weeks I log the find with photographic proof. If the CO couldn't be bothered to answer the message, I doubt they care.

 

926dd824-6e55-4260-beb5-db41cb624dbd.thumb.jpg.6e6e64ab1c0d00d9132a85fa7042af35.jpg

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22 hours ago, Dyanih2 said:

HI everyone,

I am curious ...... there is a really hot discussion going on in Germany about Logbooks.

Is it true that you are absolutley not allowed or that the owner can delete your log online, if you cant write your name in a Logbook

For example . your pen quit working, or you spontaneously found a cache while out and about ......

The Topic started because another cacher logged with a pic of the Logbook in their hands, because they didnt have a pen. 

Now they are telling newcomers that that is forbidden.

Excited about some Feedback !!

LG

Dyanih2

I'm wondering if photo logging is becoming a common, local (lazy), practise which COs are wanting to discourage it before it gets out of hand.

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On 5/28/2021 at 5:09 AM, Dyanih2 said:

I am curious ...... there is a really hot discussion going on in Germany about Logbooks.

 

Ironic that Germany of all places would suddenly become very concerned about signing the physical log. :antenna:

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23 hours ago, colleda said:

I'm wondering if photo logging is becoming a common, local (lazy), practise which COs are wanting to discourage it before it gets out of hand.

Where I cache, in the San Francisco Bay area, photo logs are rare, and I don't think I've ever seen one that made me think the logger filed them regularly, so I'd rule out laziness as the motive. The only photo logs I see are people who had trouble signing the log proving they found the cache. And while I can't really say how COs react, my impression is that only a few don't except that proof when the justification for not signing the log seems reasonable.

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4 hours ago, Bear and Ragged said:

They can remember their GPS/camera/phone, but forget a pen?

(Yes, I know phones can do the GPS and camera bit! ;))

 

Naaah, very easy to get out of the car and not grab a pen, or leave your pen at the LAST cache.

 

I wouldn't file on a cache I hadn't marked or grabbed a log photo of, but I can understand not having a pen, now and then.

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One reason photos can't be used as "proof" is that they're easy to 'fake'. A photo of the log - taken by whom?   Oh your shoe is in the photo? Your shoe? Your smiling face is in the corner of the photo? Without manipulation?  

So yeah it's important to remember that the logbook signature is the smoking gun - a log is considered legitimate if the sheet is signed. If a photo is taken, the CO has to make the judgment call. And as Max And 99 said, there's really no excuse for not having a writing utensil regularly; one or two passes for general cases, but it's an exception. If a cache owner starts regularly accepting photo logs, they could face repercussions from a reviewer or HQ as it could lead to abuse of the hobby and the cache logging history loses its integrity if no one actually seems to be signing the logsheet, which is the whole intent...

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18 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

 

Ironic that Germany of all places would suddenly become very concerned about signing the physical log. :antenna:

As a German, I would like to comment on that ;) ...

 

The vast majority of German COs doesn't give a hoot whether online "found it" loggers have actually signed the physical log or not. Most German cachers (and owners) follow the guideline "Everyone can play the game as they like". Therefore, COs who sometimes compare online logs with the physical logbook are the exception. And I think, even most of those would accept the exceptional "photo log"; when the photo really proves that the cache was found. Many owners even point out, that they don't delete find logs, even when they find out, that the logger has neither signed the log, nor provided any other proof of his find.

So: No, Germans in general have not suddenly become concerned about signing the physical log :P.

 

And for the record, how do I handle this as a CO myself: If someone sends my a photo of the log in his hands, and says they didn't have a pen, I let the find log stand. I very rarely check the online finds against the logbook, but when I do it, any online find for which there is definitely no entry in the logbook (and no "excuse" of any sort mentioned online) is deleted.

 

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I almost always bring a pen during my caching journeys but for me it isn't BRINGING a pen. It's DROPPING a pen. I can't tell you how many times I have been geocaching in the bush then finding my pen had dropped out of my pocket :cry:

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On 5/30/2021 at 7:30 AM, Bear and Ragged said:

They can remember their GPS/camera/phone, but forget a pen?

(Yes, I know phones can do the GPS and camera bit! ;))

 

Sure, it happens.   The last time it happened to me, I had taken a train from Belgium for an overnight stay in Luxembourg.  I forgot to put pen in the small overnight bag I had brought with me.   First thing I did was to find a grocery store (which required walking by a cache) to buy a pen (the store didn't sell them but the proprietor gave me one of his own).  

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6 hours ago, EthisEthat said:

I almost always bring a pen during my caching journeys but for me it isn't BRINGING a pen. It's DROPPING a pen. I can't tell you how many times I have been geocaching in the bush then finding my pen had dropped out of my pocket :cry:

 

Once looking for a cache, and found it because I found a pen on the floor near where the cache was hidden! :lol:

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6 hours ago, Bear and Ragged said:

 

Once looking for a cache, and found it because I found a pen on the floor near where the cache was hidden! :lol:

One time I was looking for this D4 cache by a bridge and dropped my pen in the water. Then when I went to get it I saw the cache.

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I have posted this before.  Someone logged two of my caches in one day, along with a lot of caches in the area.  The two caches were two miles apart.  But the driving time was about an hour.  One in NYC, one across the river in NJ.  No one had ever logged both in one day.  Took me two weeks to check both.  Cacher had not signed either.  Turns out he had not signed any logs on that trip.  Might have been the only cacher's logs I've deleted on regular caches.

On the other fin, on my WebCam Cache, I delete any log that does not meet the requirement "Photo of you taken by the webcam must be posted with the log."  Well, I send an e-mail first, explaining the requirement.  If the required photo is not added, the log is deleted.  WebCams can get archived for allowing selfies.  I have delete quite a large number of selfie logs.

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Pen died? Just indent the page with your dead pen, then photograph on an angle.... then post the pic. Easy.

I tend to post a fair few log photos, even when I've signed, especially if we're way out of our area and finding an unloved cache.

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On 6/1/2021 at 10:18 PM, EthisEthat said:

I almost always bring a pen during my caching journeys but for me it isn't BRINGING a pen. It's DROPPING a pen. I can't tell you how many times I have been geocaching in the bush then finding my pen had dropped out of my pocket :cry:

That's why I carry at least two pens, in the back pack. And if I am with other people, they also have pens.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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Just now, Goldenwattle said:

 

 

2 hours ago, lee737 said:

Pen died? Just indent the page with your dead pen, then photograph on an angle.... then post the pic. Easy.

I tend to post a fair few log photos, even when I've signed, especially if we're way out of our area and finding an unloved cache.

I've indented my initials and then rubbed charcoal over the initials.

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A few years ago there was a local Geocacher who claimed many finds... and one day at our local group monthly meeting someone pointed out that they had never seen the cacher's signature in any logbook.  On a subsequent maintenance visit I discovered the same thing.  At the next monthly meeting someone who knew the Geocacher personally reached out via phone for an explanation and the person has since then not logged another geocache... none... nada.   

Edited by CachedIronSkillet
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1 hour ago, NanCycle said:

I'm not usually carrying charcoal with me, but some dirt or tree bark scrapings might work too.

 

I am quoting this but this answer goes out to all here who want to use dirt, blood, .... to log the logbook.

 

Personally I don't use logstripes but real logbooks. And when they are full or archive the cache I keep them as memories. I used to reread the very nice offline logs written in my first ever logbook of my first cache.

As part of the process I want these books clean so I do not like blood or anything like this (mud? or sh*t? what's that??? that's disgusting...) in it. If you put something like that into my logbook you are staining or even destroying it. Is it worth the point (*) to destroy the property of someone else? No, in my eyes such a behaviour is selfish.

 

Jochen

 

(*) If you explain everything to me you may log the cache withput destroying the book.

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8 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

Can I somehow take a picture from the iPhone app when on occasion I do forget or have a faulty pen? I do not know how to otherwise add a photo to the log entry.

 

Do NOT add the picture to the log entry if it spoils anything about the hide.

Go directly to www.geocaching.com and use a real PC (no app! no mobile phone!) to contact the owner. You can upload a picture to the message center.

 

Jochen

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51 minutes ago, Jayeffel said:

Can I somehow take a picture from the iPhone app when on occasion I do forget or have a faulty pen? I do not know how to otherwise add a photo to the log entry.

 

The Help Centre comes to the rescue:

 

Quote

3.4. Add a photo to a log

On Geocaching.com with a new log

  1. Select Log geocache from a cache page.
  2. On the log page, drag and drop up to 20 photos to attach to your log.

On Geocaching.com with an existing log

  1. Find your log on the cache page.
  2. Select Upload Image on the right.
  3. Choose the image and select Upload.

On the Geocaching® app

  1. From the log screen, select the camera icon.
  2. Choose a photo from your library or take a new photo.
  3. Save your log as a Draft or post your log immediately.

 

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5 hours ago, NanCycle said:

I'm not usually carrying charcoal with me, but some dirt or tree bark scrapings might work too.

It's often not hard to find charcoal in the Australian bush, as we have regular bushfires. The charcoal I used I picked up near the cache.

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On 6/1/2021 at 2:18 PM, EthisEthat said:

I almost always bring a pen during my caching journeys but for me it isn't BRINGING a pen. It's DROPPING a pen. I can't tell you how many times I have been geocaching in the bush then finding my pen had dropped out of my pocket :cry:

Or you stand on a pile of rocks and you drop the pen into the pile, out of reach. Yeah. Done that. Many times.

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On 6/14/2021 at 5:36 PM, frostengel said:

Go directly to www.geocaching.com and use a real PC (no app! no mobile phone!) to contact the owner. You can upload a picture to the message center.

 

In the official app (mobile phone!) you can add photos to messages in the messaging tab. This is the message center. So smartphone is okay, for both sending an email (+attaching an image) or sending a message via MC (+attaching an image).

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