Unsafe area?

[+psychpineapple]

Hey everyone!

I have been debating something for the last couple of days, and so I thought I would bring it to the forums. There is a cache near me that has received many logs saying that there are needles and garbage, in the area where the cache is hidden. Many DNF logs saying that they couldn't find it/didn't search for it for that reason. The last OM was last year in November. Since then, 3 DNF logs have been logged and no finds. I went for this cache a few days ago, expecting to file a NM log. I searched for it for 10 mins, looking around. Tons of garbage under the canoe (which is on a hill, it's a display, not in water  ). I didn't see any needles, but many people have reported that they have seen some. I then left a DNF and a NM log, stating that the CO should check that it is there, (3 DNFs before mine) and if it is safe to get. The CO deleted my NM. I am torn about what to do. I considered making it a NA log, that way, the reviewer will see it and then deal with it. The only thing is, I can't be sure that it is under an object, where the garbage and needles are. I messaged the CO, saying that they should maybe change the location of it to a tree or something nearby so that people can still see the (semi) touristy location of the cache. They haven't responded yet, but it has only been a day. 

Thanks!

Edited May 5, 2021 by psychpineapple

[+L0ne.R]

PM the reviewer. 

[Keystone]

I advise against "PM the reviewer."  Most reviewers aren't monitoring private messages sent through the Geocaching Forums.  Many reviewers do not use the Message Center on the Geocaching.com website and in the official Geocaching Apps.  (There is a reason why there is no "message" link on Reviewers' profile pages.)

 

Instead, the OP can either (1) send their local reviewer an email through the email link on their profile page, or (2) log a "Needs Archived."  The local Reviewer is alerted to "Needs Archived" logs even if the cache owner deletes the log.

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, psychpineapple said:

Hey everyone!

I have been debating something for the last couple of days, and so I thought I would bring it to the forums. There is a cache near me that has received many logs saying that there are needles and garbage, in the area where the cache is hidden. Many DNF logs saying that they couldn't find it/didn't search for it for that reason. The last OM was last year in November. Since then, 3 DNF logs have been logged and no finds. I went for this cache a few days ago, expecting to file a NM log. I searched for it for 10 mins, looking around. Tons of garbage under the canoe (which is on a hill, it's a display, not in water  ). I didn't see any needles, but many people have reported that they have seen some. I then left a DNF and a NM log, stating that the CO should check that it is there, (3 DNFs before mine) and if it is safe to get. The CO deleted my NM. I am torn about what to do. I considered making it a NA log, that way, the reviewer will see it and then deal with it. The only thing is, I can't be sure that it is under an object, where the garbage and needles are. I messaged the CO, saying that they should maybe change the location of it to a tree or something nearby so that people can still see the (semi) touristy location of the cache. They haven't responded yet, but it has only been a day. 

Thanks!

If it's already had three DNFs and no finds since November, I would likely have logged a NA, not yet another NM. If the CO deleted your NM, they have possibly also deleted other NMs, and maybe DNFs, and the three DNFs you can see, might only be some of them. Log a NA.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Goldenwattle

[+JL_HSTRE]

That the cache is located in a trashy area is not much bearing on archiving the cache, although it probably increases the chances it is legitimately missing. 

 

I wouldn't want a geocache to take myself or others to an area with trash, either frequently left on the ground or even in a dumpster, but there is no real prohibition on it.

 

You mention a canoe. Some kind of historical exhibit? A real shame if such a site is trashed.

Edited May 5, 2021 by JL_HSTRE
Typo

[+Jayeffel]

As mentioned above contacting the reviewer by NA log should work best. Sending messages to the CO though well intended may not be received as such. Do your part on reporting a problem, let the reviewer do their part and then it is up to the CO to do something to resolve the problem. Good luck, and thanks for caring enough to share.

[+barefootjeff]

38 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

That the cache is located in a trashy area is not much bearing on archiving the cache, although it probably increases the caches it is legitimately missing. 

 

I wouldn't want a geocache to take myself or others to an area with trash, either frequently left on the ground or even in a dumpster, but there is no real prohibition on it.

 

I've had a couple of instances of rubbish being dumped in close proximity to my caches. In both cases the areas were pretty much pristine bushland at the time I hid them and there was no inkling of the troubles to come.

 

The first was my very first cache, hidden in a suburban bushland reserve close to a creek. About a year after I hid it, someone dumped a trailer load of rubbish between the road and the cache and, people being lemmings, when they saw the rubbish there they thought it must be okay to add their own to the pile so it quickly grew. I'd been pondering what to do when a storm toppled a tree right on top of my hiding place, making it essentially inaccessible, so I was happy enough to archive it at that point. A few months later the local council cleaned up the rubbish and the reserve has been pristine bushland again ever since, but I haven't tempted fate by hiding another cache there, nor has anyone else.

 

The other was a multi set along a series of waterfalls in a creek that flows down through a reserve. Between the road and the bottom of the creek is a large open area where a bunch of yobbos set up camp during the summer school holidays, in spite of camping being prohibited in the reserve, and dumped their used toilet paper in the creek and along the banks. I disabled the cache and reported the matter to the council but nothing happened, so I eventually went in there with thick gloves and a large bag and did my own CITO. For a while it seemed to be a constant battle between me and the campers but eventually the council sent in the rangers who evicted the campers and did a thorough clean-up of the reserve. That cache remains active and I check it after each school holidays to try to make sure there are no more nasty surprises awaiting seekers, so I'm glad no-one logged an NA on it. It's now received 11 FPs from 20 finds in its five and a half years.

 

I said all that to show it's not always the CO's fault if a cache becomes surrounded by rubbish (or worse), but by the same token, once aware of the issue they need to be proactive in finding a solution, even if at the end of the day the only viable solution is archival. Deleting NM logs doesn't solve anyone's problem.

[+psychpineapple]

I maybe should of said; the canoe is (probably) an art installation. Its a shell of a canoe (no bottom) that has an opening that can be walked into from the side. It is a 4 difficulty. The hint says that it is magnetic and to go inside the canoe. It is an 'other'. I went inside, I only saw one place where it could be that is not on the ground. I checked there and not there. Under the canoe, there is a small space all around that has tons of garbage and apparently needles. When I was there, there was an empty wine bottle sitting in the canoe on the ground.  Lots of logs in the past have mentioned the needles and garbage. There has been some finds on it, but not since November when the CO enabled it. The enable log says to 'wear gloves and bring a TOTT"

[+GeoElmo6000]

10 hours ago, Keystone said:

Most reviewers aren't monitoring private messages sent through the Geocaching Forums.  Many reviewers do not use the Message Center on the Geocaching.com website and in the official Geocaching Apps.  (There is a reason why there is no "message" link on Reviewers' profile pages.)

 

This is slightly off topic, and I apologize for that, but I have to ask, why not?  I have found that the message center is great.  I get notified of new messages through my email, I don't have to use my personal email with geocachers I don't know, and full threads of my past messages are kept in one place forever without having to search my email account.  I can respond directly to the message center notifications that come through my email and the responses just get added to the message center thread.  

[+Max and 99]

35 minutes ago, psychpineapple said:

The enable log says to 'wear gloves and bring a TOTT"

With the mention of needles.....yikes!

[+JL_HSTRE]

2 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

 

This is slightly off topic, and I apologize for that, but I have to ask, why not?  I have found that the message center is great.  I get notified of new messages through my email, I don't have to use my personal email with geocachers I don't know, and full threads of my past messages are kept in one place forever without having to search my email account.  I can respond directly to the message center notifications that come through my email and the responses just get added to the message center thread.  

 

Reviewers handle a vast quantity of messages, beyond what the Message Center is really meant to handle. They also usually have a dedicated email for their Reviewer account so privacy isn't an issue.

 

In practice, I think the Message Center is essentially a kind of instant messager system. It's food for quick, short communication especially with people who have the official app. Like a text message to your phone.

 

Reviewers sometimes need to reference messages sent months ago.

[+colleda]

On 5/5/2021 at 1:28 PM, L0ne.R said:

PM the reviewer. 

Nope. Log a NA. Not for the rubbish, that can come and go and any perceived danger is for the searcher to address. The NA will get a reviewers attention to the string of DNFs and the CO's deletion of the NM. BTW what was the Difficulty?

Edited May 6, 2021 by colleda
added info

[+psychpineapple]

47 minutes ago, colleda said:

Nope. Log a NA. Not for the rubbish, that can come and go and any perceived danger is for the searcher to address. The NA will get a reviewers attention to the string of DNFs and the CO's deletion of the NM. BTW what was the Difficulty?

4 difficulty

[+mustakorppi]

What I'm hearing is that the cache has an appropriate rating and the description gives you at least some idea on how to prepare. I'm not sure how to feel about the CO deleting NM logs, but presumably the cache environment is in the intended state so what is the CO is supposed to do. Maintenance logs without actually doing anything?

 

I'd just tell the CO off (or ignore them if they seem to want the negative attention) and move on.

[+colleda]

7 hours ago, psychpineapple said:

4 difficulty

Three DNFs on a D4 is not really enough to warrant a NM - IMO unless there's something about number of the Found Its, when compared to DNFs,  that could indicate it's an easier find than D4.

[+niraD]

8 hours ago, psychpineapple said:

4 difficulty

For reference, that rating means "Very difficult and may take special knowledge, advanced preparation, or multiple trips."

[+fuzziebear3]

Sounds to me like this is a sneaky hidden nano on the canoe.  It might or might not be there.

 

It was reasonable to log a DNF and a NM; the owner should not have deleted the NM, but rather gone and checked the location and logged his findings/fixings with an owner maintenance.

Since he didnt do that and just deleted the NM, I would at this point log the NA.

 

 

[+TeamRabbitRun]

20 minutes ago, fuzziebear3 said:

Sounds to me like this is a sneaky hidden nano on the canoe.  It might or might not be there.

 

It was reasonable to log a DNF and a NM; the owner should not have deleted the NM, but rather gone and checked the location and logged his findings/fixings with an owner maintenance.

Since he didnt do that and just deleted the NM, I would at this point log the NA.

 

 

 

Sorry, I disagree. 

 

Nothing about this D4 (that we've read) would make me submit a formal request to a reviewer to de-list the cache; to eliminate it from the game.

 

Squawk back at the CO? Yes. 
Threaten to report him or her for the deletion and file another NM log? Yes.
Refer the log deletion to the reviewer? Yes.

 

But formally requesting that the cache be terminated? No.

 

--------------------------------

I think that there's an impression that a "Needs Archive" log is the only tool available to cachers that's stronger than a "Needs Maintenance".

That's not true, but it IS the one that comes with public shaming.

Proportional response: if someone needs 'attention', email the appropriate reviewer, or HQ.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by TeamRabbitRun

[+NYPaddleCacher]

On 5/5/2021 at 7:47 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

That the cache is located in a trashy area is not much bearing on archiving the cache, although it probably increases the chances it is legitimately missing. 

 

I wouldn't want a geocache to take myself or others to an area with trash, either frequently left on the ground or even in a dumpster, but there is no real prohibition on it.

 

 

Why are people even bothering to look for it?  Is a +1 on the find count so important that people will search in garbage?

[+kunarion]

3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Why are people even bothering to look for it?  Is a +1 on the find count so important that people will search in garbage?

 

No, but I've picked up some nice TB attachments, even parts for caches, in such places.  

 

Many garbage pile caches were once garbage-less.  They accrue garbage over time, and after a couple more pieces of trash, and a couple more, at some point it's too trashy.  I won't necessarily know the situation unless I go, there's no "Garbage Pile" cache attribute.  It's likely not in the trash.  If it's just too nasty to search there or if it seems like the cache is in fact in that pile, I log a Note or DNF and move on.

 

And if a Cache Owner is so proud of his garbage that he censors logs, I avoid his caches.

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, kunarion said:

Many garbage pile caches were once garbage-less. 

They accrue garbage over time, and after a couple more pieces of trash, and a couple more, at some point it's too trashy. 

I won't necessarily know the situation unless I go, there's no "Garbage Pile" cache attribute.  It's likely not in the trash. 

If it's just too nasty to search there or if it seems like the cache is in fact in that pile, I log a Note or DNF and move on.

And if a Cache Owner is so proud of his garbage that he censors logs, I avoid his caches.

 

We see this often at popular spots on the AT.  In NJ, Pinwheel Vista, and here in PA, at Bake Oven Knob for examples. 

 - At least two shopping bags each time we're there...

 - Both places have/had caches nearby, and depending on whether we, or others who care show up, it could be beautiful, or an example of how recycling may not be working like folks hoped.    

Parking areas in the summer on game lands too.  Someone sees a bag of trash in the lot, next week there's a mattress.

Because of rural  locations I guess, it's also where many find stolen safes.      

[+Ed_S]

On 5/4/2021 at 11:34 PM, Keystone said:

I advise against "PM the reviewer."  Most reviewers aren't monitoring private messages sent through the Geocaching Forums.  Many reviewers do not use the Message Center on the Geocaching.com website and in the official Geocaching Apps.  (There is a reason why there is no "message" link on Reviewers' profile pages.)

 

Instead, the OP can either (1) send their local reviewer an email through the email link on their profile page, or (2) log a "Needs Archived."  The local Reviewer is alerted to "Needs Archived" logs even if the cache owner deletes the log.

Keystone! How ya been? Long time, no see! And I moved to Amarillo TX, so it might be longer before I see you at an event or something.  Anyway, I DNF'ed a cache down here, and, not knowing any better, used the Geocaching mail to send the approver a message saying I believed the cache is MIA. I mentioned it was last found in 2018 and the owner hasn't been active since 2009. Here's the cache: https://coord.info/GC15CG6  What's odd is that I don't see any way for me to report this cache as "needs archived." Is it because I already logged it and didn't mark it at that time? Or am I simply not seeing the link to "needs archived?"

 

[+Max and 99]

25 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

What's odd is that I don't see any way for me to report this cache as "needs archived." Is it because I already logged it and didn't mark it at that time? Or am I simply not seeing the link to "needs archived?"

Use the "Report a problem" link. See the very bottom right of my screenshot.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Max and 99

[+K13]

1 hour ago, Ed_S said:

Keystone! How ya been? Long time, no see! And I moved to Amarillo TX, so it might be longer before I see you at an event or something.  Anyway, I DNF'ed a cache down here, and, not knowing any better, used the Geocaching mail to send the approver a message saying I believed the cache is MIA. I mentioned it was last found in 2018 and the owner hasn't been active since 2009. Here's the cache: https://coord.info/GC15CG6  What's odd is that I don't see any way for me to report this cache as "needs archived." Is it because I already logged it and didn't mark it at that time? Or am I simply not seeing the link to "needs archived?"

 

Sending an email to the approving reviewer isn't helpful when that person is no longer in the game. That's why there is the Needs Archived log. Maybe TPTB should rename that log type to Needs (Reviewer) Attention.

[+hukilaulau]

Here's another somewhat extreme solution:

You can create a bookmark list called, "GARBAGE AND NEEDLES" or something and put this cache on the list.

The CO cannot delete a bookmark list and it will show up anytime someone goes to the cache page.

[+Ed_S]

Max and 99, and K13, thank you!