archived challenge

[+Dirkverschuren]

Found a lot of challenge caches a while ago. Some of them I qualified immidiatly and I could log them as found.

And for some of them I logged at the cache and logged a write note online.

Later, all of them were archived without written down a reason, just a small note were it looked like the CO was annoyed by the situation.

Today, finally, after a long time, I qualified for a challenge I had logged before.

365 days of the calender full with a found of a traditional.

And now I wanted to log it as found, or change my write note in a found, but now it seems to be locked.

I can't find a way to log it now, even when I think I am allowed according the rules.

 

Is there a new rule that archived challenges are not allowed to log? Or was there a situation with the CO all geocaches that found a cache are now suffering from? Why isn't there a note that explains this situation??

 

The cache I wanted to log is

http://coord.info/ GC8JG9W

[+Max and 99]

I am unfamiliar with this happening. I sometimes waited years after signing the physical log, to be able to log online after completing the requirements. I haven't run into a problem yet so I'm curious about this situation.

[+TriciaG]

If the CO doesn't want to check the qualifications of those now logging the cache, they can ask for it to be locked. That is what it sounds like happened here.

 

Why isn't there a note explaining the situation? Because the CO chose not to post one. *shrug*

 

However, the Archive note is suggestive: "Do not contact me for further questions .." That sure sounds to me like they don't want any further logs or messages about this cache.

 

Edit to add: Just like some people may spend a lot of time working on a hard puzzle cache, or working on a multi-cache with a lot of stages, there is always a risk the cache will be archived before they get to log it. That is what happened in your case.

Edited May 1, 2021 by TriciaG

[+Max and 99]

Just now, TriciaG said:

If the CO doesn't want to check the qualifications of those now logging the cache, they can ask for it to be locked. That is what it sounds like happened here.

 

Why isn't there a note explaining the situation? Because the CO chose not to post one. *shrug*

 

However, the Archive note is suggestive: "Do not contact me for further questions .." That sure sounds to me like they don't want any further logs or messages about this cache.

 

 

I agree. I couldn't access the cache to see anything on the page. Thanks for checking that out.

[+peter-tvm]

You should be able to edit your note and change it to an "found it".

 

I tried on an archived and locked webcam and the edit function is available there.

[+Dirkverschuren]

1 hour ago, peter-tvm said:

You should be able to edit your note and change it to an "found it".

 

I tried on an archived and locked webcam and the edit function is available there.

Yes, I saw that, and I tried. But then still it gives an error. I am unable to change my log.

As I have almost 25 other challenges of this serie I still have to log online, it feels like I am scammed.

There shall be a good reason, would be nice if they explained.

 

I have sent a tweet and a mail to a couple Dutch reviewers in the hope they can help me.

[+Dirkverschuren]

The CO has archived the serie himself. It is not done by a reviewer. So probably there were issues with logs, finders, comments, maintenance or something.

Hopefully my mails or this forum can result in an explanation

[+MartyBartfast]

It looks like they archived all their Challenges and one of the archive logs on another challenge translates as

Quote

For questions you can always contact a reviewer or HQ ... But especially not me!

 

And the CO can only archive the listing, he cannot lock it - that can only be done by GCHQ or the reviewers.

It sounds to me like they had a disagreement with the reviewers or GCHQ and archived their caches and had them locked.

 

3 hours ago, Dirkverschuren said:

Hopefully my mails or this forum can result in an explanation

 

It's likely that only the CO and GCHQ will know the whole story. GCHQ won't provide an explaination on here, the CO might if they happen to see this but I wouldn't hold my breath...

[+Goldenwattle]

15 hours ago, TriciaG said:

the Archive note is suggestive: "Do not contact me for further questions .." That sure sounds to me like they don't want any further logs or messages about this cache.

It sounds like a kid who got upset and took their ball home.

[+Dirkverschuren]

Tried to contact the CO, no response yet. And a Dutch reviewer answered me that I have to contact a belgian reviewer. It's probably a soap.

Also I did send my questions to HQ, hopefully I have some explanation soon.

 

[+Dirkverschuren]

It is a long list of write note i am still working on. Most of them from the same CO.

[+MartyBartfast]

32 minutes ago, Dirkverschuren said:

It is a long list of write note i am still working on. Most of them from the same CO.

Wow, I can immagine how annoying that must be.

[+Dirkverschuren]

Got a reply from the CO.

Seems to be a discussion with four teams who didn't respect the rules.

He mentioned the bonus, must be this one:

https://coord.info/GC8KDZ2

It's a 5/5. So very difficult. I remember it was a climbing cache, high in a tree, with lockpicking. And the Challenge was you could log it with 400x D5 en 400x T5's found.

Very very difficult.

He asked HQ to lock all caches, because he got tired of them and they didn't respect the ALR.

 

So, to bad for everybody else.

 

 

Still, I think it's kind of childish. It's a game, people play it according their own rules.

[+baer2006]

4 hours ago, Dirkverschuren said:

Still, I think it's kind of childish. It's a game, people play it according their own rules.

And some COs play it by the rules laid out by Groundspeak, i.e. you can log a challenge cache as find only if you a) meet the challenge criteria and b) sign the log. Why is it "childish" not the accept bogus logs? If a CO gets fed up with cachers who "play by their own rules", I can fully understand them.

[+MartyBartfast]

40 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

And some COs play it by the rules laid out by Groundspeak, i.e. you can log a challenge cache as find only if you a) meet the challenge criteria and b) sign the log.

I suspect it's more to do with the fact that the CO temp disabled the cache on Dec 13th due to hunting season, but 2 cachers found it on Dec 20th. So if the finders qualified and signed the log then they were following the rules but not the wishes of the CO.

[+MNTA]

Wishes smishes ... Take it up with GS show send them your longing info and checker result. You qualify by the rules they have documented.

[+baer2006]

9 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

I suspect it's more to do with the fact that the CO temp disabled the cache on Dec 13th due to hunting season, but 2 cachers found it on Dec 20th. So if the finders qualified and signed the log then they were following the rules but not the wishes of the CO.

Ok, I didn't read the logs. Instead, I reacted only to the post by @Dirkverschuren, where he said "He asked HQ to lock all caches, because he got tired of them and they didn't respect the ALR" - with "...didn't respect the ALR", I assumed that ALR meant the challenge requirements.

 

6 hours ago, MNTA said:

Wishes smishes ... Take it up with GS show send them your longing info and checker result. You qualify by the rules they have documented.

What?! How about common courtesy to honor a wish of the CO, which looks reasonable to me? The CO disabled the cache to avoid conflict with hunters. In my area, hunters and cachers are often at odds, and whole cache series in the woods had to be archived because of hunters' opposition. If a CO has reached some agreement with local hunters, all cachers should really play nice if they don't want to risk archival of the caches.

Therefore I think it's rather rude to do the request of the owner away with "Wishes smishes ..." . I think of such a behavior as "scorched earth caching" - yes, by GS's rules, the "offenders" can log he find, but they didn't mind leaving big trouble behind. And that trouble doesn't affect them, only those who want to find the cache after them.

[+MNTA]

The CO has solved his control problem incorrectly.

 

You do not lock a challenge cache because you don't want people to sign a log. You disable the cache not lock it. We have a few caches in my are the CO does this every year no problem. Disable when people are not allowed.

 

The thing with challenge caches is many times the person who found the cache does not automatically qualify. So they per the rules write a note. There is no "going against the wishes of the co" to later log the cache as found. This is how it works. Locking prevents this and an appeal to GS should resolve the problem.

 

Now if the CO needs mentally 100% control and decides to lock the cache because they can't stand a cacher who violates his self imposed rules. Well maybe they should move the cache or better yet not worry about it. Maybe the cacher is a hunter and had access to the areas so signing the log was not a problem. The CO should not be in the business of others. How did this hurt the CO? Their responsibility ends with placement, responsibility for being safe is the responsibility of the finder, should we ban all climbing caches because they are unsafe? No, I choose to stand at the bottom and say no I am not going to climb that. Others say heck yeah I will climb that. 

 

I felt the same way when a few COs disabled caches for COVID. I actually did more caching last year rather than less. My choices were to go be outdoors by myself rather than stuck in a room by myself. If there had been no caching at all I still would have been outside, I found a cache this weekend that had not been found since 2017 and loved it. I don't need a CO to tell me to follow their rules.

 

Back to the original poster, yeah it sucks if you can not log the find. If the appeal fails I suggest let it go a smiley is not worth the headaches. If the CO plays these annoying games simple ignore their caches and move on.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by MNTA

[+Dirkverschuren]

1 hour ago, MNTA said:

The CO has solved his control problem incorrectly.

 

You do not lock a challenge cache because you don't want people to sign a log. You disable the cache not lock it. We have a few caches in my are the CO does this every year no problem. Disable when people are not allowed.

 

The thing with challenge caches is many times the person who found the cache does not automatically qualify. So they per the rules write a note. There is no "going against the wishes of the co" to later log the cache as found. This is how it works. Locking prevents this and an appeal to GS should resolve the problem.

 

Now if the CO needs mentally 100% control and decides to lock the cache because they can't stand a cacher who violates his self imposed rules. Well maybe they should move the cache or better yet not worry about it. Maybe the cacher is a hunter and had access to the areas so signing the log was not a problem. The CO should not be in the business of others. How did this hurt the CO? Their responsibility ends with placement, responsibility for being safe is the responsibility of the finder, should we ban all climbing caches because they are unsafe? No, I choose to stand at the bottom and say no I am not going to climb that. Others say heck yeah I will climb that. 

 

I felt the same way when a few COs disabled caches for COVID. I actually did more caching last year rather than less. My choices were to go be outdoors by myself rather than stuck in a room by myself. If there had been no caching at all I still would have been outside, I found a cache this weekend that had not been found since 2017 and loved it. I don't need a CO to tell me to follow their rules.

 

Back to the original poster, yeah it sucks if you can not log the find. If the appeal fails I suggest let it go a smiley is not worth the headaches. If the CO plays these annoying games simple ignore their caches and move on.

 

Very good respons.

 

Archiving was first a Big decision. Locking a Challenge serie (81 or so) was second.

 

The CO was upset by the logs in hunting season.

Locking by HQ, even on request, was really not a good idea.

 

HQ has also boven a reply: nope, only in extreme rare cases.

 

So a long list of Challenge caches found but not yet qualified in the bin.

 

Still, I had a nice day finding them.

[+niraD]

52 minutes ago, Dirkverschuren said:

Archiving was first a Big decision. Locking a Challenge serie (81 or so) was second.

Exactly. There are two separate decisions here.

 

You may argue over whether the CO should have archived the series of challenge caches. And related to that, you may argue whether the CO should have retrieved the containers during hunting season, or whether it's reasonable to log a cache that was disabled due to seasonal restrictions (whether those restrictions are for hunting season, or the mating season of an endangered species, or whatever else).

 

But once the CO has decided to quit playing the challenge cache game, there is a separate decision to lock the archived challenge caches. Part of owning a challenge cache (or an EarthCache, or a virtual cache) is verifying that the logging criteria have been met. If the owner is no longer playing the game and is no longer willing to do that, then I don't think it is unreasonable for them to request that their caches be locked, especially if they have already been dealing with logs from people who haven't met the requirements.

[+MNTA]

100% disagree!

Locking a cache violates the agreement that was made at the time of legally signing the challenge cache log. Which is you get to log a found it at a later date when you qualify. Some challenges are extremely difficult and can require significant expenditure of time, effort, money you name it. Now these are not as crazy as some of the older challenges. Not to mention many of us go out of our way to go and sign a challenge log. 

Challenge caches have always been a special case, some would argue it should be in a class separate from mystery/unknown caches. Locking challenges would help to support this as there could be a two step process. Step one - "Signed log", Step two "Qualify Found". Locking should only affect step one.

As an example I signed a "10 years geocaching" challenge back in 2017. I will qualify for this on in 2023. Now I know I did not have to do anything special but wait. But on my 10th year anniversary you bet I'll be marking this as found. I'd be a bit miffed and disappointed if it was locked. 

 

I also have signed 50 and 40 state challenge caches, one day would hope to qualify currently at 19, oh and I drove an hour out of my way to get Minnesota. I've found 36/50 bigcal charter member caches, lots of effort to get a qualifier in my neck of the woods. I have around 80 challenges signed but not qualified many of those I could have spent finding other caches. Hopefully you get the point.

[+Dirkverschuren]

There should be some code programmed in the site, that even when a cache is locked, people who have a write note can change it in a found.

No new logs, no change of the the listing, keep the locking system as it is, just make it possible a write note can be changed. So the rules stay as they are: people who have written their name on the log, and quallify the ALR, can found it, even when archived.

 

[+thebruce0]

This is a very intriguing limbo.

There's no guideline clause that says if you've found the challenge cache at one point, you are entitled for perpetuity to log it as found even once it's archived and locked. Is it that you've found it and the qualification ALR is a technicality? Or is it that qualifying is part of the essential act that validates the "Found it" log?  Must you find and qualify while the geocache is active?  If part of the process is the responsibility of the CO verify challenge qualifications, then it follows the CO must be active in order to allow the valid find.

But from the finder perspective, it's clear that once you do qualify (and you have the proof), then you did actually find the geocache.

 

I think the key here beyond the Challenge Cache scope is the locking of the listing. For any geocache, regardless of how 'valid' the find is, if the listing is locked at the behest of the CO (or a reviewer), the cache simply cannot be logged. If a Trad gets archived for whatever reason, then you go and find and sign the log because it wasn't removed by the CO, that doesn't mean you can claim the find on the website if the listing is locked.

 

Perhaps what you could do in the case of the challenge cache is see if anyone else would be willing to republish the series in a new set of challenges. If you've qualified already, then you'd be able to go out log those ones as found.

 

Here's a big benefit - once you've qualified for the cache, if you haven't logged it as found though you've signed its logbook, and the listing gets archived and locked, at least that doesn't affect your past qualifications!  1] you can still rest easy in that you still qualify for the challenge itself, and 2] any future challenge in the same manner you already qualify for.

 

 

I'm still working towards qualifying for some crazy challenges signed in while on vacation. If I qualify long after they're archived, I can only hope the CO doesn't lock them; if they're still loggable, I'll absolutely log them found. If not, it sucks (like, really), but there's nothing I can do. And I wouldn't want to dig into whatever drama may have caused it

 

You can still keep like a pseudo-challenges-complete bookmark list to which you add all the geocaches you've qualified, whether found and signed or not.

[+niraD]

9 hours ago, MNTA said:

Locking a cache violates the agreement that was made at the time of legally signing the challenge cache log. Which is you get to log a found it at a later date when you qualify. Some challenges are extremely difficult and can require significant expenditure of time, effort, money you name it.

Nonsense.

 

I bought season tickets for a theatre company that went bankrupt. Nothing entitled me to go to the performing arts center at the designated time and day and demand entrance to see the performance. The theatre company was out of business and the performance was no longer happening. The ticket meant nothing, given that the thing the ticket was for no longer existed.

 

Same thing. You signed a log (bought an advance ticket), but the challenge cache is locked (the seller and the event no longer exist).

 

9 hours ago, MNTA said:

Challenge caches have always been a special case, some would argue it should be in a class separate from mystery/unknown caches.

I would argue that they've outlived the mystery/puzzle type's role as "staging ground for new and unique geocaches that do not fit in another category." But now that there's an attribute, it's unlikely that they'll get their own type. And it's getting off topic.

 

9 hours ago, MNTA said:

Locking challenges would help to support this as there could be a two step process. Step one - "Signed log", Step two "Qualify Found".

I would also argue that presigning logs is part of the problem. For all other physical caches, you can log a Find once you sign the log. For challenge caches, it should be the same way, thus: step 1, qualify; step 2, sign log. But this is getting off topic too.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Dirkverschuren said:

There should be some code programmed in the site, that even when a cache is locked, people who have a write note can change it in a found.

Given the "stealth" nature of changing Notes to Finds (since the CO is not notified of the change), I would argue that promoting this practice would make the situation worse, as far as enforcing the ALR goes. And allowing this change after a cache has been locked certainly qualifies as promoting it.

[+MNTA]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

This is a very intriguing limbo.

There's no guideline clause that says if you've found the challenge cache at one point, you are entitled for perpetuity to log it as found even once it's archived and locked.

 

 

 

There is no mention that I can find at all on the help center concerning locking. You are correct  there is no explicit statement that says you can log a challenge any time in the future but it is implied as it is not explicitly excluded. 


 

[+fuzziebear3]

I personally don't sign challenge caches until after I qualify for them.  Yes, it might get archived while I am working towards it.  Yes, I might never get back to that area.   Just risks I take, and the way I solve this challenge.