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Proposals for changes to Adventure Labs


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1 hour ago, Team_Bunnies said:

My proposal:

- 1 statistic point per lab (not per question)

-  show them on the geocaching map

 

Show them on the geocaching map like below?

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LAB.jpg.908e4da7d6bb9e97b9d927183768b7d0.jpg

 

1 statistic point per lab:

We have ALs here where the lab cache are miles apart and it could very well be, that I visit one or two lab cache only, not the complete AL.

With your suggestion, I would not get anything.  This is the biggest difference to multi cache, you don't need to visit all "stations" you can very well make a selection what you want to see and visit.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Display it on the starting point with an option setting to show the stages as well, just like multi caches.

Still much better than not seeing them.

Anyways, most AL stages are pretty close to each other.

Edited by Team_Bunnies
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7 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

1 statistic point per lab:

We have ALs here where the lab cache are miles apart and it could very well be, that I visit one or two lab cache only, not the complete AL.

With your suggestion, I would not get anything.  This is the biggest difference to multi cache, you don't need to visit all "stations" you can very well make a selection what you want to see and visit.

 

I once found the first stage of a multi in Sydney's Royal Botanical Gardens, but it was only when I plugged the numbers in to work out the coordinates of the second waypoint that I realised this multi extended right down the coast, finishing at Melbourne's gardens. It was a fair hike through the gardens to get to the waypoint and a bit of searching once there to find the required information and do the calculations, but no way would I want a smiley for that. The multi is a whole, with that stage just one of its parts, and the smiley comes from completing the whole.

 

The latest vision update for ALs says, in part:

 

Quote
  • We encourage Adventures to contain compelling narratives, for their stages to share a common theme, or for them to unfold in a sequence defined by the content creators. Adventure Lab aims to provide creators with a broad toolset that allows them to create the type of Adventures that they wish to create and to tell the stories they wish to tell. We believe that providing more choices will ultimately result in a broader and better array of Adventures for people to play. Each Location (or stage) of an Adventure is a component of the story the creator is trying to tell and it is in the spirit of Adventure Lab to protect the Adventure creator’s narrative. For this reason, it is intentional that we are only showing Adventure starting Locations on the app map. 

 

Why then should you expect to still get smileys if you only complete one or two bits of that story the creator is telling? You can't even log that you've done them to thank the CO for their efforts.

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16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

You can't even log that you've done them to thank the CO for their efforts.

 

Yes, this really is a big shortfall.

 

16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Each Location (or stage) of an Adventure is a component of the story the creator is trying to tell

 

Sure, agree to this as well.  You can tell the story of the redwoods along the California cost but if you just passing by, visiting only one stage of the story (one Labcache), why wouldn't you give this visitor not a smiley for his visit?

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23 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

You can tell the story of the redwoods along the California cost but if you just passing by, visiting only one stage of the story (one Labcache), why wouldn't you give this visitor not a smiley for his visit?

 

Well, they didn't complete the story :P

That argument can be made for multis as well. Well if they visited only one stage of the multi, why wouldn't you give the visitor a smiley for the visit? ... because they didn't complete the multi :P

 

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

That argument can be made for multis as well. Well if they visited only one stage of the multi, why wouldn't you give the visitor a smiley for the visit? ... because they didn't complete the multi

 

Yes, but an AL is not a multi cache, it's just something different, designed so you don't have to visit all labcache of an AL.  Very often, stage 2 of a multi has to be calculated by information found on stage 1, so you couldn't visit stage 2 by itself.

Is it really so hard to accept the AL concept?

 

But like mentioned above, it would make more sense if an individual labcache could be logged and a note sent to the lab-owner.  This is something I'm missing.

 

Edited by Mausebiber
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1 minute ago, Mausebiber said:

Is it really so hard to accept the AL concept?

No, I accept the AL concept, for sure. I'm just not a fan of the inclusion of them as a "sort of kind of but not really" geocache :P

 

2 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

Yes, but an AL is not a multi cache, it's just something different, designed so you don't have to visit all labcache of an AL.  Very often, stage 2 of a multi has to be calculated by information found on stage 1, so you couldn't visit stage 2 by itself.

Not linear ALs. They very much are like virtual-multis. And the argument was based on "Each Location (or stage) of an Adventure is a component of the story the creator is trying to tell" which certainly implies a linear Multi-cache-like experience. Thus, awarding a smiley for individual stages, only a fraction of the whole, seems out of place.  But people like those +1 smileys in their geocaching stats, even if it is just entering a codeword in a phone app  :P

 

I wouldn't classify an open / orderless AL as part of a "story the creator is trying to tell" because you can take them individually, piecemeal, when you want; there's no linearity, no narrative - though there is a common theme. For those, awarding a smiley per location seems more reasonable - much like finding a collection of Virtuals around town. But that's a different argument, I'd say.

 

If they describe an Adventure as a "story the creator is trying to tell", that implies linearity, and a single intended experience. So awarding a smiley per 'chapter' in a 'story' is very much like awarding a find per stage of a multi.

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Well, they didn't complete the story

 

I understand the concept of AL like an umbrella with 5 (less or more) labcache under it. The umbrella is telling the story and 5 "tradi-like" labcache supporting it.  Difference is, no approval required, no logbook required, no wet containers, no forgotten pencils, no complains to GS about deleted logs and much more.

 

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8 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:
1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Well, they didn't complete the story

 

I understand the concept of AL like an umbrella with 5 (less or more) labcache under it. The umbrella is telling the story and 5 "tradi-like" labcache supporting it.

 

Practically speaking, no. Even with non-linear Adventures, the locations are effectively only "linearly" connected to the host Adventure description, not to each other. (Adventure->Location A, Adventure->Location B, etc) as they can be attained individually, separately, distinctly, at will.

Oh someone can certainly arbitrarily connect them, but they're fundamentally disconnected. Certainly not connected like linear locations in an Adventure where each location is directly reliant on the previous (Adventure->Location A->Location B-> etc). That's why I described them as 'thematically' related when non-linear. There's a functional difference between linear and non-linear.

 

The point again was there is a difference between a "story being told" which implies linearity - and a collection of thematically related locations. The former is much like a multi, the latter is much like a collection of virtuals. Awarding a smiley per location makes more (geocaching) sense for the latter, but less so the former.

Edited by thebruce0
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1 minute ago, thebruce0 said:

Awarding a smiley per location makes more (geocaching) sense for the latter, but less so the former.

 

I see your point and agree that a linear Adventure is like a multi cache and should be awarded at the end once the AL is complete (maybe with one smiley only)

The problem that occurs now is, how do you distinguish between the two, linear and non-linear? 

Maybe, if the lab-owner is given the order of lab cache visits rather than no specific order.

 

Yes, I see, there is room for improvements  :D

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If only a solution (other than suck it up and accept what it is) were so easy :laughing:

 

Just to reiterate - I don't have a problem with ALs. I've been doing a few more now, though primarily for the benefit of the Bonus cache. I wouldn't mind the ability to keep the AL stats public but just not include them in the smiley count. I just like knowing that "smileys" on geocaching.com are related finding geocaches listed on geocaching.com. Individual listings. It's consistent and makes sense.

But, tying those location completions to a bare-bones level of gc stats helps get geocachers more interested in them and the concept. It just reduced the "meaning", per se, of that smiley count, imo. It's getting harder and harder to call them "finds" in the classic sense any more. Who knows if someone with 10,000 smileys has found 10,000 caches, or completed 2000 Adventures? :P

 

Of course, I suppose the other option is to create a 2nd account for Adventures only. That would suffice.

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On 4/1/2021 at 11:12 AM, Team_Bunnies said:

My proposal:

- 1 statistic point per lab (not per question)

-  show them on the geocaching map

I don't mind that adventure lab caches do not show up on the map. If they are what you are going out to look for, they are easy enough to find using the correct app.
I do agree with 1 smiley total for completing the full lab cache adventure, not 3 or 5 or 10 per adventure. To me a lab cache adventure is no different than a Wherigo adventure or a multi-cache adventure. A cacher should not be awarded 1 smiley for finding a single stage of any of these types, only 1 smiley for completing the full adventure. 
I'm sure there are others, like me, that have failed to complete a multi cache or a Wherigo cache for one reason or another, and didn't receive a smiley. That is easy enough to live with, in fact, it could give you a reason to revisit the adventure again.
I think 1 smiley per stage is ridiculous.

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23 hours ago, runninbear1 said:

I do agree with 1 smiley total for completing the full lab cache adventure, not 3 or 5 or 10 per adventure. To me a lab cache adventure is no different than a Wherigo adventure or a multi-cache adventure. A cacher should not be awarded 1 smiley for finding a single stage of any of these types, only 1 smiley for completing the full adventure. 

 

I think that this should be controlled by the owner. 

 

I own an Adventure that's spread out over 50kms. Each location highlights a completely different geological/historical site. Some of the locations also have geocaches hidden at the sites, that are dedicated to that specific geological/historical feature. In fact, most completed it over several days. This was an intentional design decision by me, as I recognized that the finder would earn five smilies and thus wanted to make each smiley "worth it."

 

There are, however, other hiders who place all their locations in a museum or at a park. In those cases, perhaps only one smiley is justified. 

 

Hence, giving the cache owner the ability to decide what is most appropriate seems best to me (assuming you ignore the technical difficulty of implementing that.)

Edited by Hügh
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On 4/1/2021 at 10:12 AM, Team_Bunnies said:

My proposal:

- 1 statistic point per lab (not per question)

-  show them on the geocaching map

Originally I wanted more integration, so I would also be calling for putting ALs on the map. But now that I'm used to them, I realize they're something else -- or, more to the point, I'm doing something else -- so integrating them into geocaching no longer interests me. If I want to see ALs, I'll pull up the AL app. I was glad to see the recent announcement where GS essentially ignores the integration question, making me think GS is also seeing them as a different thing that doesn't really warrant a bigger presence in existing geocaching mechanisms.

 

Similarly, I don't care whether the finds are counted in a way that is more logical for geocaching. I think the only interesting question is whether they should be counted as geocaching finds at all. Given that these non-geocaches are counted as geocaching finds, whether it's per AL or per AL stage doesn't seem important. They're nothing like geocaching finds, anyway, so what difference does it make? That doesn't mean I'm against counting them as finds. I'd call myself neutral about that. I just find the find/not find issue much more open to logical debate than the AL/stage issue because the latter hinges on the imagined ways that ALs seem like various types of geocaches.

 

I'm even having some second thoughts about the owners' doing casual integration with bonus caches. I do still like bonus caches, and I still think it's generally a good idea to use bonus caches to alert cachers to a nearby AL even as I'm starting to lose interest in better official integration. But the main reason I end up being a big fan of bonus caches is because it gives me a place to write a log about the AL. Typing the log via a handheld, in the field after finding the last stage, is a real pain, so I never log more than a sentence or two. But if there's a bonus cache where I can type in my find log at home, I can describe the whole experience from the comfort of home.

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4 hours ago, dprovan said:

But the main reason I end up being a big fan of bonus caches is because it gives me a place to write a log about the AL. Typing the log via a handheld, in the field after finding the last stage, is a real pain, so I never log more than a sentence or two. But if there's a bonus cache where I can type in my find log at home, I can describe the whole experience from the comfort of home.

 

With the 400 character limit in the Activity log, you can't write more than a couple of sentences even if you want to. Yes, the bonus cache is handy for writing decent logs of the AL experience and allows photos to be added too.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

With the 400 character limit in the Activity log, you can't write more than a couple of sentences even if you want to. Yes, the bonus cache is handy for writing decent logs of the AL experience and allows photos to be added too.

I hadn't notice that character limit, so thanks for pointing it out. There's really no way I'd ever enter that many characters to a phone app, anyway, though, so no wonder I didn't know there was a limit.

 

Oh, yeah, photos, too. Good point. I admit, I don't normally think of photos, and I don't think I've ever even considered adding a photo in an AL bonus cache, but I appreciate people that do.

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

Your second wish has been granted.

Well only partially. Won't solve the issue with those widespread AL like the newest one in my province spreading more than 100km that can be done in any order.

Edited by Lynx Humble
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1 hour ago, Lynx Humble said:

Well only partially. Won't solve the issue with those widespread AL like the newest one in my province spreading more than 100km that can be done in any order.

 

To be fair, the same is true of any multi-stage cache on the system.

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On 4/2/2021 at 5:48 AM, Mausebiber said:

 

 

1 statistic point per lab:

We have ALs here where the lab cache are miles apart and it could very well be, that I visit one or two lab cache only, not the complete AL.

With your suggestion, I would not get anything.  This is the biggest difference to multi cache, you don't need to visit all "stations" you can very well make a selection what you want to see and visit.

 

 

 

 

That's is no different than some multicaches. Finish only a few of the WPs and you don't get anything. You must complete it. A couple of multicaches I have done it's necessary to drive up to about 12,000km to complete them. Canberra to Darwin, with side trips, and return. For one of them, which I started in 2016, I had travelled that distance, finding many WPs, but still didn't have a smilie. It was only in the last couple of weeks that I managed to complete it and get the single smilie.

So about four years to complete and many thousands of kms driven. Am I complaining? Absolutely not. It's the challenge; the sense of finally finishing this. Many other multicaches, although not on that scale, do involve long walks, or driving kms between WPs. Why should ALs be 'special'?

Why should it have been considered to be okay and part of the game for multicaches, but it's considered wrong for a lab cache?

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On 4/3/2021 at 6:15 AM, Mausebiber said:

Sure, agree to this as well.  You can tell the story of the redwoods along the California cost but if you just passing by, visiting only one stage of the story (one Labcache), why wouldn't you give this visitor not a smiley for his visit?

Lets change AL to multicache. You only do only one WP of a multicache, so "why wouldn't you give this visitor not a smiley for his visit?"

Because that's not how it works.

Unfortunately, ALs do get a smilie for each and every WP, and cheapen the experience.

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On 4/6/2021 at 1:49 PM, Hügh said:

I own an Adventure that's spread out over 50kms.

I completed a multicache with many WPs that I drove up to 12000kms return to complete. One smilie is enough, as it's the accomplishment. 50km is nothing for a multicache, so why should an AL be different?

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On 4/5/2021 at 2:13 PM, runninbear1 said:

I don't mind that adventure lab caches do not show up on the map. If they are what you are going out to look for, they are easy enough to find using the correct app.

Only if you can access the internet. Can be difficult for those travelling from other countries. I have never had internet on my phone when in another country.

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25 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

why should an AL be different?

 

Because they're different cache types. Thus it is reasonable to expect them to behave differently and follow different rules.

 

If Adventure Labs were modified to "be more like Multi-caches", Adventure Labs wouldn't be Adventure Labs anymore... they'd be Multi-caches.

Edited by Hügh
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56 minutes ago, Hügh said:

 

Because they're different cache types. Thus it is reasonable to expect them to behave differently and follow different rules.

 

If Adventure Labs were modified to "be more like Multi-caches", Adventure Labs wouldn't be Adventure Labs anymore... they'd be Multi-caches.

They are multicaches which are done on a phone. I have found basically no difference except for that. Multicaches by a different name. Find some information to allow you to move to the next WP. That's the same with many multicaches. Until you do that WP you can't find the next WP.

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6 hours ago, Hügh said:

 

Because they're different cache types. Thus it is reasonable to expect them to behave differently and follow different rules.

 

If Adventure Labs were modified to "be more like Multi-caches", Adventure Labs wouldn't be Adventure Labs anymore... they'd be Multi-caches.

 

There's very little difference between a multi with 5 virtual waypoints and an AL-plus-bonus, and now with multi-choice questions available in ALs, there's really no difference at all, except the number of smileys you get for the same effort. Take a look at my multi GC8JGWN which has eight multi-choice virtual waypoints. Aside from having to limit it to five waypoints and the practical problem of there being no phone coverage in the area, it could have been done just the same with an AL plus bonus.

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Here are some differences between geocaches and adventure labs:

1) Must use an app, no GPS receiver

2) No "found it" log on locations, just the activity log for the Adventure as a whole

3) Geofencing

4) Locations do not show up in your find list, it's a separate list

5) Adventure locations do not show up on GC map  - now the starting location does, but not locations.  If locations count as a find, they're not showing up on the map as separate icons.

6) Can have indoor-only adventure locations, not geocaches; GPS isn't required for adventure locations but is for geocaches

7) Adventure owner doesn't get notified of locations finds

8) Adventure owner can't see more than first 10 finders unless they log an Activity Log (which isn't required)

9) New adventure publication app notification only, not email

10) No review process for adventures

11) Not everyone can create an adventure, and those that can are limited

 

Ones I'm not sure about:

1) Can't log locations "at home" - I like to log my caches & write logs at home and in order but ALs need to be logged on site (though I've heard there are ways around this, I'm not sure)

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3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Ones I'm not sure about:

1) Can't log locations "at home" - I like to log my caches & write logs at home and in order but ALs need to be logged on site (though I've heard there are ways around this, I'm not sure)

If you'd been at the sight and had hit the "Answer" button you'll be able to log that station anywhere, even at home. Tested.

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7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

There's very little difference between a multi with 5 virtual waypoints and an AL-plus-bonus, and now with multi-choice questions available in ALs, there's really no difference at all, except the number of smileys you get for the same effort. Take a look at my multi GC8JGWN which has eight multi-choice virtual waypoints. Aside from having to limit it to five waypoints and the practical problem of there being no phone coverage in the area, it could have been done just the same with an AL plus bonus.

 

Good point. However...

 

There's also very little difference between a Traditional Cache and a Letterbox (or a Multi-cache and a Letterbox, or a Mystery and a Letterbox. The comparison I make depends on the specific "flavour" of Letterbox.)

 

The only thing that completely distinguishes one from the other is the presence of a stamp, which, in my experience, (1) often isn't in the cache, or, is falling apart, and (2) is something a decent majority of cachers don't touch.

 

Similarly, the "only" thing that distinguishes a Multi and an Adventure is "the number of smileys you get for the same effort"...

Edited by Hügh
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5 Smileys are not a big problem, they are just stats. The real problem is not to have a possibility of reporting any issue with an Adventure Lab. Sometimes the questions are out of date because the site has changed and you have no way to let the owner know.

Edited by sernikk
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16 minutes ago, Hügh said:

 

Good point. However...

 

There's also very little difference between a Traditional Cache and a Letterbox (or a Multi-cache and a Letterbox, or a Mystery and a Letterbox. The comparison I make depends on the specific "flavour" of Letterbox.)

 

The only thing that completely distinguishes one from the other is the presence of a stamp, which, in my experience, (1) often isn't in the cache, or, is falling apart, and (2) is something a decent majority of cachers don't touch.

 

Similarly, the "only" thing that distinguishes a Multi and an Adventure is "the number of smileys you get for the same effort"...

That's why there are so few letterbox in my area and its a type that should be grandfathered. Making a different type just because of a Dollar-store stamp doesn't make any sense.

 

In my opinion Adventures Lab are just rebranded Virtual and Wherigo merged together. I have only seen 2 AL that could be considered Multis. The rest are just random loations with a theme.

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Just now, sernikk said:

5 Smileys are not a big problem, they are just stats. The real problem is not to have a possibility of reporting a problem with an Adventure Lab. Sometimes the questions are out of date because the site has changed and you have no way to let the owner know.

Yeah don't know why Groundspeak never put that feature of contacting the CO maybe it will come with the new integration of both app.

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16 hours ago, Hügh said:
16 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

why should an AL be different?

 

Because they're different cache types

 

Well, they're not a cache type.

Not sure if it's changed with the update to the app, but they even (now) technically list the filters as "Types" which could be interpreted as Pin types. Nonetheless, ALs aren't Cache Types.

 

1 hour ago, Hügh said:

Similarly, the "only" thing that distinguishes a Multi and an Adventure is "the number of smileys you get for the same effort"...

 

Well, and Adventure Labs don't have geocache listings on Geocaching.com. Nor share the properties. The "only" thing they share is that you get at least 1 smiley for reporting it as complete (in its native manner, which is also different), and they both now have posted-location pins that show on the mobile app.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lynx Humble said:

[Letterbox vs Traditional] Making a different type just because of a Dollar-store stamp doesn't make any sense.

 

Well, Letterboxes don't have to be a posted and also allow you to provide non-gps instructions to find the cache.  Though I think in that case the Final waypoint needs to be included. Unless you can determine the final from the cache listing (either 'at posted' by solving a 'puzzle'). A Traditional needs to be at the posted. So there are a few differences between the two; but the unique aspect of LBs really is the requirement to have the stamp inside. At least should be the intent. I've found many LBs that have "lost" their stamps... =/

You can list any Traditional as a LB, if you just include a stamp. But you can't list any Letterbox as a Traditional, for a few functional differences.

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Well, they're not a cache type.

 

The website disagrees.

 

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Well, and Adventure Labs don't have geocache listings on Geocaching.com. Nor share the properties. The "only" thing they share is that you get at least 1 smiley for reporting it as complete (in its native manner, which is also different), and they both now have posted-location pins that show on the mobile app.

 

Either way, I think this reinforces my point that we cannot expect Adventure Labs to follow the same "rules" as established cache types (namely, Multi-caches; they seem to be the focus of people who disagree with the five-smileys system.) I was being sarcastic in the bit you quoted.

Edited by Hügh
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9 minutes ago, Hügh said:
1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Well, they're not a cache type.

 

The website disagrees.

 

:) This is why I pointed to the technical differences and minimal similarities. Also that page lists "Lab Caches", not "Adventures" (just to nitpick). Everything else on that page has a geocache listing. Therefore an Adventure is not a type of geocache, in the context of geocaching.com geocache listings. And the more they're advertised AS cache types, the more confusing and less meaningful "geocaches" in general gets.  

 

11 minutes ago, Hügh said:

Either way, I think this reinforces my point that we cannot expect Adventure Labs to follow the same "rules" as established cache types (namely, Multi-caches; they seem to be the focus of people who disagree with the five-smileys system.) I was being sarcastic in the bit you quoted.

 

I agree. And I think that's why there's so much contention over how they're implemented in the general system and being promoted right now.

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3 hours ago, sernikk said:

5 Smileys are not a big problem, they are just stats. The real problem is not to have a possibility of reporting any issue with an Adventure Lab. Sometimes the questions are out of date because the site has changed and you have no way to let the owner know.

All this can be summed up as a lack of logging options.

If every AL location counts as one "cache", and therefore +1 find, fine. Why not, I don't care too much - as you say, it's "only" a stat. But if each location is a separate cache, then I'd really like to write a separate log for it - incl. a DNF/NM, if needed. Also, I would like to ...

  • ... log more than only 400 characters.
  • ... log on a computer. Maybe using something equivalent to drafts for normal caches. With the difference that I can log only via "drafts" generated by the AL app.
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10 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

 

If I want to contact the owner I can just write him/her an Email or a message, not just one click, but it can easily be done.

That's what I do if I get stuck. One of the stages I recently did was a benchmark and the coordinates were 140 ft off so we could not locate it. A message to the cache owner really helped us out and the coords were updated. 

 

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On 4/2/2021 at 1:37 PM, barefootjeff said:

You can't even log that you've done them to thank the CO for their efforts.

This is what irritates me the most - I can live with the smiley per location (twist my arm!) - it sort of makes up for the one smiley for those long treks and involved multis! :) - but why are lab finds completely absent from the record??

Today we needed a find for International Geocaching Day.... we are in a covid-19 lockdown, and have to stay in our local government area - so all we could do was an AL location. We did it and got our souvenir, but our caching history is of course blank - as if we did nothing.... why is this?? Project-GC can see the individual locations logged, so its clearly possible. Even if we can't add a log (which I would like) at least put a record of the find in our history..... this can't be that difficult.....

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As I've said in another thread, if you don't like them, don't do them, simples. I don't like multi's (with complex working outs in the field), I don't like the Wherigo's, I can't stand those Earth Caches that expect you to have a degree in geography to complete, so what do I do? ignore them. It's easy and allows the 'game' to be played by different people, why exclude those of us that like traditional, virtual and AL's just because you don't like them! I'm disabled, I find it very difficult getting into pokey places as I can't kneel down, these are fab, they're also great for my Cub Scouts who can learn about different area's they live in by doing them. Come on guys think of others too.

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17 hours ago, The Kent Crew said:

As I've said in another thread, if you don't like them, don't do them, simples.

 

No, it's not "simples". I've enjoyed the ALs I've done but there are some deficiencies I find particularly annoying, such as:

  • There's no scale on the map. In an unfamiliar area, it's unclear whether an AL is a short walk or a long drive. Why has it become trendy to not put scales on maps?
  • Compared to the map in the Geocaching App, the AL map doesn't show many of the walking trails around here, making it difficult to navigate non-urban ALs.
  • There's no way to view anything about ALs on the website, either to see where they are or look at the descriptions, making planning caching trips difficult.
  • The arbitrary character limits in descriptions and activity logs are too restrictive.
  • You can't see what ALs a CO has created, either in their website profile or in the app. Why is this kept secret?
  • I don't like the disproportionate way ALs count in my caching stats so I delete all my AL finds but that can only be done one waypoint at a time. A setting to select how ALs count (one smiley per location, one smiley per complete AL or no smileys) would be much nicer and less tedious.

If you adopted the "if you don't like it don't use it" attitude to other aspects of the game, I guess all those people reporting bugs in the recent changes to the website Search filters should just shut up and not use them.

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6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

No, it's not "simples". I've enjoyed the ALs I've done but there are some deficiencies I find particularly annoying, such as:

  • There's no scale on the map. In an unfamiliar area, it's unclear whether an AL is a short walk or a long drive. Why has it become trendy to not put scales on maps?
  • Compared to the map in the Geocaching App, the AL map doesn't show many of the walking trails around here, making it difficult to navigate non-urban ALs.
  • There's no way to view anything about ALs on the website, either to see where they are or look at the descriptions, making planning caching trips difficult.
  • The arbitrary character limits in descriptions and activity logs are too restrictive.
  • You can't see what ALs a CO has created, either in their website profile or in the app. Why is this kept secret?
  • I don't like the disproportionate way ALs count in my caching stats so I delete all my AL finds but that can only be done one waypoint at a time. A setting to select how ALs count (one smiley per location, one smiley per complete AL or no smileys) would be much nicer and less tedious.

If you adopted the "if you don't like it don't use it" attitude to other aspects of the game, I guess all those people reporting bugs in the recent changes to the website Search filters should just shut up and not use them.

The 'sans-scale' maps really irritate me too - what is a map without a scale?

I'd also like to see PC integration, especially right on the geocaching map.....

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On 9/4/2021 at 5:15 AM, The Kent Crew said:

As I've said in another thread, if you don't like them, don't do them, simples.

Like barefootjeff said we are complaining about ALs because Groundspeak gives us an half finished project still with major deficiencies 2 1/2 years after being introduced...

 

Here my list of the annoying ones :

 

-No notification to the CO when someone complete your AL and leave a message.

-No way to DNF an AL.

-No way to contact the CO from the app.

-I have to use a third party app to be able to do multiple Adventure at the same time because Groundspeak REFUSE to put all the locations on the same map.

-Doesn't count for state/country stats.

-There should be a limit on the number of try for an answer because counting stuff and multiple choices questions are useless with unlimited try.

 

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On 9/4/2021 at 4:15 AM, The Kent Crew said:

As I've said in another thread, if you don't like them, don't do them, simples. I don't like multi's (with complex working outs in the field), I don't like the Wherigo's, I can't stand those Earth Caches that expect you to have a degree in geography to complete, so what do I do? ignore them.

 

Another major difference: Earthcaches, Multis, and Wherigos are all standard geocache listings. Adventure Labs are not. They can also actually be placed on the Ignore list. Adventure Labs cannot. A couple big differences when it comes to "just ignore them" ;)  ALs are in a limbo state between being entirely distinct and their own side game, and being another type of geocache listing. And they're much closer to their own thing than to a geocache listing.

 

But yes, no one disagrees that one can simply 'just not do them.'  that argument can be made about anything in this hobby. But honestly that's missing the point of the discussion - that's either how to improve them and their integration, or requesting they be made entirely distinct.

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