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Garmin GPSMAP 65s unreliable Multi-GNSS


0x01
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Hello,

 

I have a GPSMAP 65s unit. It is unreliable in terms of receiving Multi-GNSS. GPS is always received.

Galileo and GLONASS is unreliable. One day lots of satellites, the other day no satellite despite unrestricted sky view.

Restarting the unit doesnt fix it. I consider it appearing somehow random.

Today, I went on a hike in the forest. In the beginning few Galileo and GLONASS were received. Hours later, the connection dropped, no satellites in view. Even when in free field.

 

The unit is up to date through Garmin Express.

 

Any same observations among other owners?

Any known fixes?

 

Regards

Edited by 0x01
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A Post Subject or Title something like "Galileo Initialization Slow" may have been more accurate for the behavior you describe in your post. (GPS + GLONASS alone constitute 'Multi-GNSS')

 

This is a known issue with the GPSMAP 65. See GPSrChive > GPSMAP 65 > Common Issues > Bug #8.

 

It is unclear yet if this is simply a UI issue and the signals are being used, or if it is actually having trouble initializing the Galileo satellites. I tend to suspect the first scenario, but have no concrete evidence to back it up beyond the device still seems to work OK. 

 

 

 

Edited by Atlas Cached
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3 hours ago, Atlas Cached said:

This is a known issue with the GPSMAP 65. See GPSrChive > GPSMAP 65 > Common Issues > Bug #8.

Thanks for that link! Also how to report bugs to Garmin!

 

Actually it also happens with GLONASS. But Galileo I have noticed more severe in the meantime. GPS usually works well.

And refer to first post, it can loose satellites which should have been back receivable in free field.

 

I have bought this unit due to Galileo multiband support. I am mapping for Openstreetmap.  Due to that issues I am not yet fully satisfied with the purchase. I have also noticed Bug #7, probably will never be fixed.

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On 4/1/2021 at 8:50 AM, Atlas Cached said:

A Post Subject or Title something like "Galileo Initialization Slow" may have been more accurate for the behavior you describe in your post. (GPS + GLONASS alone constitute 'Multi-GNSS')

 

This is a known issue with the GPSMAP 65. See GPSrChive > GPSMAP 65 > Common Issues > Bug #8.

 

It is unclear yet if this is simply a UI issue and the signals are being used, or if it is actually having trouble initializing the Galileo satellites. I tend to suspect the first scenario, but have no concrete evidence to back it up beyond the device still seems to work OK. 

 

 

 

 

That's a pretty serious bug. Hopefully, this is just a UI issue and that the signals are being utilized. Surprisingly, this doesn't affect the 66sr.

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43 minutes ago, Sgt_Strider said:

That's a pretty serious bug. Hopefully, this is just a UI issue and that the signals are being utilized. Surprisingly, this doesn't affect the 66sr.

 

Because this 'issue' does not appear on the 66sr, and because they both use the same GPS chipset, I suspect this is an issue with the UI and not a problem receiving the signals.

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19 minutes ago, Atlas Cached said:

 

Because this 'issue' does not appear on the 66sr, and because they both use the same GPS chipset, I suspect this is an issue with the UI and not a problem receiving the signals.

 

Is Garmin aware of this bug? I wonder when a fix will be released?

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19 hours ago, 0x01 said:

I don't think it's an UI issue.

I would expect less drift in some edges of the forest when only 2x L5 GPS but 6x E5a Galileo are available.

 

You got another Garmin unit to compare this to? Have you contacted Garmin yet?

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I think I have found a systematic behavior - I'll observe it further:

- Usually Galileo keeps flashing

- when it stops flashing (e.g. after 3 hours), then

- Galileo and Glonass satellites will disappear during the next hours (e.g. 3 hours)

- No new satellites for Galileo and Glonass will be found anymore

 

10 hours ago, Sgt_Strider said:

You got another Garmin unit to compare this to? Have you contacted Garmin yet?

I compared to eTrex Legend HCx with DGPS active. I already reported the Galileo issue to Garmin.

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On 4/5/2021 at 4:16 PM, 0x01 said:

I think I have found a systematic behavior - I'll observe it further:

- Usually Galileo keeps flashing

- when it stops flashing (e.g. after 3 hours), then

- Galileo and Glonass satellites will disappear during the next hours (e.g. 3 hours)

- No new satellites for Galileo and Glonass will be found anymore

Validated and confirmed!! It's reproducible. Tested today: 11 hours after switching on the unit, only GPS is left. GPS is received with all available satellites. (checked with https://www.gnssplanning.com )

Not sure whether it relates to "Galileo stops flashing" or satellites get dropped earlier, but this is the general observed sequence.

 

The last received Galileo satellite appeared at a very wrong position on the sky map before it dropped (at the border - actually it was ~70°). Earlier it was correctly displayed.

Turning off the unit and on again, all satellites are back again and in proper position. (Galileo keeps flashing)

 

 

On 4/5/2021 at 5:01 PM, Atlas Cached said:

I suspect the GPSMAP 65 will be receiving another firmware update very soon, perhaps you can retest after installing the next update and let us know if it is resolved for you?

Sure. I'll track it until Garmin fixes it. If they will be slow and / or don't reply to my bug report accordingly, they get a poor Amazon rating. Deserved.

 

As of now I would recommend: don't buy this unit unless you get it with good discount. Wait for bugfix.

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I wrote in English to product.support Garmin email and got answer in local language.

Instructions:

1. Check for updates in Garmin Express

2. Factory reset

3. If not resolved, unit is defect, send in for replacement, we already issued an RMA for you

 

As expected, I landed in 3.

Obviously they have had a look in the files I have sent them (I sent as as per gpsrchive.com). Serial number was properly registered in the RMA without any further action from my side.

 

New unit: serial number 900 units incremented (still below 3000). Firmware 3.50 (old: was updated to 3.70). Other version numbers are same. From RMA I know I have an EMEA version of the unit.

 

Actually I wanted to go step by step, one change at time until I run into the same issue again. But some time Garmin Express updated me the Firmware without my confirmation.

My current assumption: As long as Garmin\GPS\CPE.BIN is on the unit, it will malfunction. This is placed on the unit either by Garmin Express when the unit is registered to a Garmin account or by connecting through Bluetooth to smartphone. I noticed that, because the new device hasn’t had the file initially and seemed to work well out of the box. CPE.BIN will not be erased by factory reset. It need to be deleted manually.

I’ll put few more investigations on that issue.

Preliminary workaround which seems to work:

- delete CPE.BIN

- factory reset (probably not required)

- switch GPS to demo mode, trigger AutoLocate, switch GPS on (will clear position and satellite data)

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19 hours ago, 0x01 said:

I’ll put few more investigations on that issue.

Preliminary workaround which seems to work:

Doesn't work. Galileo and GLONASS are still lost after some time. That trial, also restarting the unit has not brought Galileo or GLONASS back working.

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I think the relation is as follows:

- CPE.BIN present: satellites keep flashing

- CPE.BIN not present: no satellites will be received

 

Temporary workaround: trigger AutoLocate

 

Meanwhile Garmin told, they would not know about Galileo or GLONASS issues.

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Hello,

I received my 65s yesterday and it's the same the satellites flashing constantly, as if the satellites were not active. I have a friend who has the 66sr it's the same, the satellites are also flashing, the problem is the same, normal or not, Garmin will not be able to tell us.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I asked Garmin for status update. Then they asked me to send the video again. Then I sent again and asked about the ticket they supposed to have opened already. Then they replied, yes they have opened and it would be a question from development team. Haha. Snakes working at Garmin. For me it's part of "keeping the customer busy while we have no fix for the problem".

You can find (not very more) info in other forums as well. All Garmin Galileo/multiband units (65 & 66) seem to have the problem.

I hope links to other forums are fine here - it is how internet works:

https://www.gpsrchive.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1262

https://www.gpsrchive.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1278

https://www.naviboard.de/thread/66127-kein-galileo-empfang/?postID=531727

Edited by 0x01
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On 6/5/2021 at 8:24 AM, 0x01 said:

Yes, I asked Garmin for status update. Then they asked me to send the video again. Then I sent again and asked about the ticket they supposed to have opened already. Then they replied, yes they have opened and it would be a question from development team. Haha. Snakes working at Garmin. For me it's part of "keeping the customer busy while we have no fix for the problem".

You can find (not very more) info in other forums as well. All Garmin Galileo/multiband units (65 & 66) seem to have the problem.

I hope links to other forums are fine here - it is how internet works:

https://www.gpsrchive.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1262

https://www.gpsrchive.com/Discussion/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1278

https://www.naviboard.de/thread/66127-kein-galileo-empfang/?postID=531727

 

It's already August 19th. Any new update?

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I sold the 65s and bought a 66sr, I have the exact same problem with the Galileo satellites which blink even after 2 hours of hiking in an open field, if I use it without the multiband it is exactly the same with the satellites Galileo are always flashing, sometimes a single satellite becomes fixed but is of no use since a minimum of three satellites is needed to obtain a position.
I will send it back to Garmin under warranty but I doubt because they make the exchange and send a refurbished so an old one.
The position suffers I had a 66s and the tracks are not better with the 66sr than the 66s, so the multiband is useless in this case without Galileo.

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Sending it back will do you no good. Just gaurantees you get a refurb when you had a new unit. 

 

The device still gets a better positional lock than any other Garmin product,  so just be patient for Garmin to get the flushing satellite issue worked out. 

 

As asked elsewhere,  is the CPE on your 66sr 'Current' or 'Expired'?

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Be careful if you patch your GPS Gpsmap 66sr and 65s you risk having problems with the Galileo satellites which are never active, I experienced it, I had patched my 66sr to be able to read the V6 and the satellites Galileo were never fixed, I even contacted Garmin after-sales service. I decided to put the firmware back 3.80 unpatched and now it works but I will see it on several hikes and several days if it is confirmed.

 

Today : In fact I was a bit quick after putting the unpatched firmware back, today the Galileo satellites are blinking and has nothing to do with the patch.

Edited by mimichris
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I had problems with GPS + GLONASS, accuracy became erratic in open areas.  I expect there was a timing difference between the networks and a simple, dumb little handheld can't be bothered to tell you any useful diagnostic output.  Switching to just use GPS worked fine, ran that way for years.  GLONASS really never did offer me anything I didn't already have.

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This is definitely not a UI issue. The reason I can be sure of this is because of the output of RINEX data shows the satellites under GLONASS reducing after about 4 hours, to be lost all together by 6 hours (normally although not in the attached image,  it took longer in this case) and Galileo reducing after 10 hours, to be lost all together by 14 hours. 

 

I have the 66sr and it exhibits exactly the same issue in both the UI and RINEX.

 

Before you ask, I have done several tests all with the same result, with my main test site being in a very clear view of the sky with no obstructions 10 degrees above horizontal. Also it is very near (12km) from a UK base station that continues to receive multi frequency GPS, Galileo, GLONASS and BeiDou signals then the 66sr does not.

 

I have raised a support case. 

 

 

grmn269p33_all_visibility.png

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On 9/28/2021 at 11:29 PM, Pete_the_Geek said:

This is definitely not a UI issue. The reason I can be sure of this is because of the output of RINEX data shows the satellites under GLONASS reducing after about 4 hours, to be lost all together by 6 hours (normally although not in the attached image,  it took longer in this case) and Galileo reducing after 10 hours, to be lost all together by 14 hours. 

 

I have the 66sr and it exhibits exactly the same issue in both the UI and RINEX.

 

Before you ask, I have done several tests all with the same result, with my main test site being in a very clear view of the sky with no obstructions 10 degrees above horizontal. Also it is very near (12km) from a UK base station that continues to receive multi frequency GPS, Galileo, GLONASS and BeiDou signals then the 66sr does not.

 

I have raised a support case. 

 

 

grmn269p33_all_visibility.png

Hello,

I can't seem to use Net_Diff to output a graph with the RINEX created by my 66sr, how do you do it, I'm not sharp enough on the subject, thanks.
Regarding the cutting of satellites other than the GPS after 14 hours of operation, is it due to the energy saving of the GPS which would stop the satellites not essential to operation?

EDIT : I managed to create this table with RTKplot.exe. Thank you.

Edited by mimichris
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