Challenge Caches - Time for an Upgrade

[+brendan714]

I own several challenge caches.  Within the past year, I would estimate that about 8 to 10 different beginner geocachers have logged one or more of my challenge caches as "found" without completing the challenge portion.  ie: they likely found the container, but clearly do not qualify for the challenge.  Today I just received another such log.  (I will note that all of my challenge caches are premium member only in an effort to prevent this exact issue from happening)

 

As the owner, I am forced to delete the found log and write a lengthy email to the newbie cacher explaining what a challenge cache is and why they can't log a "found it".  I am usually met with a response that suggests pure confusion.

 

And really, it is quite confusing!  Why are challenge caches the only cache type for which you can't log a "found it" log when you found the cache and signed the logbook?

To make matters even more confusing, they are the same cache icon as other mystery caches where if you find the cache and sign the log, you DO legitimately get to log a "found it"!

 

Last year, one geocacher even pushed back at me several times (stating that they found the cache and were confused why I was deleting their found log, despite my efforts to explain the process), re-logging their find each time after I deleted it twice (I eventually got help from our local reviewer).

 

In an effort to make the rules of challenge caches easier to understand for everybody, I propose the following:

1) The ability to log a "found it" on a challenge cache should somehow be tied to a successful check on the challenge checker.  I realize there is a problem here with challenges that don't have checkers (grandfathered challenges only), and there may perhaps be several technical problems regarding ties to Project GC.  But this is the way it should be.

2) Since the point above could be confusing for new geocachers ("why can't I log it as found when I found it?"), challenge caches should have a note on the log page explaining that you need to complete the challenge portion when you do not yet qualify for the challenge.

3) Challenge caches should have a different cache icon than other mystery caches - they are totally different beings than all other caches types that are tossed into the "mystery" bucket.  I will note that the challenge attribute is useless for solving any of these problems.

Edited March 14, 2021 by brendan714
typo

[+Lynx Humble]

Been asked so many times but Groundspeak doesn't care and never explained why they can't add a new cache type for Challenge.

[+niraD]

Now that there is an attribute for challenge caches, I doubt we'll ever a separate type for challenge caches.

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, brendan714 said:

I will note that the challenge attribute is useless for solving any of these problems.

 

The challenge attribute would at least allow them to implement your first suggestion, namely to only allow a Found It log only if they've qualified. At the end of the moratorium when they announced mandatory checkers, I was half-expecting them to do something like this, perhaps using a private API between the Project-GC and HQ servers to facilitate it.

 

But this is just one aspect of a deeper problem with new PM cachers who've never visited the website and have no interest in geocaching apart from it being just another treasure-hunting phone app. In the past year I've had to deal with numerous such cachers logging finds after reaching the first stage of a multi or logging DNFs on virtual-waypoint multis and mysteries because there's no box of trinkets hidden at the spot their phone is pointing to. It seems almost rare now for newbies to start off as Basic members, they all seem to pop up as PMs before they're even found any caches so there's no escaping them either by making caches PMO or through higher D/T or non-traditionals.

[+HoochDog]

I completed a challenge in the last year where the final cache was not at the posted coordinates. The challenge checker script outputs the final coords as part of the success message. This technique greatly or completely cuts out finds by new users finding it at the posted coords. 
 

An even easier thing to do might be to put the actual coordinates in the cache description. If they aren’t reading the description, then they won’t see the coords. If they do read the description, they will learn that it is a challenge cache. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by HoochDog
More

[+Isonzo Karst]

7 minutes ago, HoochDog said:

The challenge checker script outputs the final coords as part of the success message.

Interesting. Not per current guidelines, but interesting.

 

At this time, your cache coords must appear on the cache page.  BUT, they don't have to be the posted coords.

3. Final Container Location  The container must be placed at coordinates on the cache page, either as posted coordinates, or as a visible final waypoint.

LINKY

 

I haven't done it myself, but I do wonder if having the final as a waypoint, instead of as posted would help? 

I've had some "finds" of my challenges by novices. I generally message and, where I can,  email.  Wait 6 months, delete finds.  

 

(I get more novice "finds" on stage 1 of Multi. Same response, I message,   email. Wait a while delete find.  )

[+HoochDog]

2 minutes ago, Isonzo Karst said:

Interesting. Not per current guidelines, but interesting.

 

At this time, your cache coords must appear on the cache page.  BUT, they don't have to be the posted coords.

3. Final Container Location  The container must be placed at coordinates on the cache page, either as posted coordinates, or as a visible final waypoint.

LINKY

 

I haven't done it myself, but I do wonder if having the final as a waypoint, instead of as posted would help? 

I've had some "finds" of my challenges by novices. I generally message and, where I can,  email.  Wait 6 months, delete finds.  

 

(I get more novice "finds" on stage 1 of Multi. Same response, I message,   email. Wait a while delete find.  )

yep. I edited my original suggestion. You can put the actual coordinates in the description itself. Would also help. 

[+dprovan]

I appreciate all the effort you're going through to educate the newbies. Do you find that they learn? Or are the same ones logging finds on your other challenge caches?

 

I don't think any of the changes you're suggesting would make much difference. The icon change, in particular, makes no sense: the newbies already shouldn't be looking for a cache at a question mark because in the other cases, there's no cache there, so there's literally no reason to think a different icon for challenge caches would make any difference at all. The idea of tying it to the checker doesn't actually fix anything, it just means the newbies will be confused about the impersonal system turning them down instead of by you with your explanation and ready to answer questions turning them down. That helps you, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

So I'm afraid I think the only good answer to this is the solution we have in place now: understanding COs willing to educate errant cachers to help them understand a nuance to the game that they didn't understand before. If it offers you any hope: although I don't own any challenge caches, I do watch some in my area, and it strikes me as remarkably rare for someone to claim the find without understanding that there's a challenge that they fail to meet. I expected it to happen regularly, but, to be honest, I can't remember the last time I saw that. So perhaps there's just a surge of dumb newbies in your area that you'll have to work your way through before things calm down.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

4 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

Interesting. Not per current guidelines, but interesting.

 

At this time, your cache coords must appear on the cache page.  BUT, they don't have to be the posted coords.

3. Final Container Location  The container must be placed at coordinates on the cache page, either as posted coordinates, or as a visible final waypoint.

LINKY

 

I haven't done it myself, but I do wonder if having the final as a waypoint, instead of as posted would help? 

I've had some "finds" of my challenges by novices. I generally message and, where I can,  email.  Wait 6 months, delete finds.  

 

(I get more novice "finds" on stage 1 of Multi. Same response, I message,   email. Wait a while delete find.  )

 

If Challenge caches became a new cache type, the guidelines would have be be changed anyway to indicate that they are a new cache type, so "current guidelines" don't really apply.

[+mustakorppi]

3 hours ago, dprovan said:

That helps you, but it doesn't solve the problem.

Unnecessary maintenance work placed on COs is a separate problem and also worth solving.

 

 

[+brendan714]

6 hours ago, HoochDog said:

An even easier thing to do might be to put the actual coordinates in the cache description. If they aren’t reading the description, then they won’t see the coords. If they do read the description, they will learn that it is a challenge cache. 

This is a pretty good suggestion, thanks!

 

2 hours ago, dprovan said:

Do you find that they learn? Or are the same ones logging finds on your other challenge caches?

I find that if they do respond, they are upset as to why I deleted their find and confused as to why they can't log a find even though they found the cache.  One person told me they won't be bothering to look for any more of my geocaches. (that's not the attitude I'm trying to promote here!)

 

2 hours ago, dprovan said:

The icon change, in particular, makes no sense: the newbies already shouldn't be looking for a cache at a question mark because in the other cases, there's no cache there, so there's literally no reason to think a different icon for challenge caches would make any difference at all.

I disagree: the cache is at the posted coordinates and is there ready for them to find & sign the log.  Exactly my point that this is different than most other mystery caches. 

 

It's much easier for me to explain to them: "this is a unique type of geocache with special rules called a challenge cache - you can tell because it has the special challenge cache icon." 

 

Rather than: "this geocache is a challenge, which is a special subset of a certain cache type called mystery caches.  Even though it has the same icon as other mystery caches you may have already found, the rules for challenges are a little different.  Unlike all other mystery caches, you have to fulfill the challenge before logging a find, even if you already found the container and signed the log".

 

It's just so confusing the way it is!  It's confusing even for me, and I know what I'm talking about!  

 

3 hours ago, dprovan said:

The idea of tying it to the checker doesn't actually fix anything, it just means the newbies will be confused about the impersonal system turning them down instead of by you with your explanation and ready to answer questions turning them down. That helps you, but it doesn't solve the problem.

Sure it does.  Reject the ability to log a find and link them to a page that explains what a challenge cache is and how it works.

It would be a simple tool to explain challenge caches to those who don't already know.  The volunteer time put in by cache owners should be respected by HQ - it shouldn't be my job to explain this very confusing nuance of a rule to new geocachers.

 

3 hours ago, dprovan said:

So perhaps there's just a surge of dumb newbies in your area that you'll have to work your way through before things calm down.

It's been happening much more frequently within the past year.  Who is to say that it will ever calm down?

[+Max and 99]

7 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

I haven't done it myself, but I do wonder if having the final as a waypoint, instead of as posted would help? 

I suspect it would help. There are several local challenge caches that put the final in a waypoint. I think it's a good idea.

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, dprovan said:

So I'm afraid I think the only good answer to this is the solution we have in place now: understanding COs willing to educate errant cachers to help them understand a nuance to the game that they didn't understand before. If it offers you any hope: although I don't own any challenge caches, I do watch some in my area, and it strikes me as remarkably rare for someone to claim the find without understanding that there's a challenge that they fail to meet. I expected it to happen regularly, but, to be honest, I can't remember the last time I saw that. So perhaps there's just a surge of dumb newbies in your area that you'll have to work your way through before things calm down.

 

One of my challenge caches, a terrain 3.5 that's a steep 6km hike from any of the access points, has had 19 legitimate finds since it was published in 2017, but in that time there have been two who logged a find but didn't qualify. I messaged them, no response, then emailed them, explaining how challenge caches work and suggesting they change their log to a note until they've qualified. Both eventually just deleted their log without ever replying. The same goes for the others I've had to deal with on my multis and EC, where they haven't reached the final or answered any questions, there's either no response or a very gruff one. I've yet to encounter one that actually wants to learn more about the game.

[+thebruce0]

2 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

9 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

I haven't done it myself, but I do wonder if having the final as a waypoint, instead of as posted would help? 

I suspect it would help. There are several local challenge caches that put the final in a waypoint. I think it's a good idea.

 

I have a geoart series of challenges exactly like this. Each has the final in an additional waypoint (nothing at posted). That's explained in the cache description, and it's allowed.

[+Isonzo Karst]

10 hours ago, HoochDog said:

put the actual coordinates in the description

Sure you can do that. But the guideline is specific, cache coords must be either, "posted coordinates, or as a visible final waypoint." There's no option to only have them in the text of the cache page.

 

@thebruce0 so can you tell if having the final as waypoint has cut down on "no qualify" finders?

 

Agreeing with @barefootjeff , while I absolutely sympathize with the issue that brendan714 describes on Challenges, it happens on Multi-caches as well. And they have a separate type. 

 

I'm not saying that there isn't something to be done to help, but a new cache type doesn't seem like a solution.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Isonzo Karst

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, Isonzo Karst said:

so can you tell if having the final as waypoint has cut down on "no qualify" finders?

 

Nope, we are a very challenge-oriented community around here. Don't often see people trying to 'find' challenges without qualifying. Also, mine are PMO.

[+Hügh]

On 3/14/2021 at 4:32 PM, brendan714 said:

Since the point above could be confusing for new geocachers ("why can't I log it as found when I found it?"), challenge caches should have a note on the log page explaining that you need to complete the challenge portion when you do not yet qualify for the challenge.

 

As I suggested in an unrelated-but-similar thread, why don't we take advantage of the dialog(s) that introduce new cachers to the various types in the game?

 

⟹

 

This dialog would pop up the first time (and only the first time) you tap on a cache with the Challenge Cache attribute in the app. Heck, it could even be added to the website too! (with some effort) While I understand that the dialog is typically reserved for new cache types, the Challenge Cache is essentially a type at this point.

 

---

 

Alternatively (or additionally) perhaps we could change the placeholder text on this screen.

 

 

I know that the placeholder text disappears once you start typing, but hey, some people might actually read it (especially if it's their first time.)

 

---

 

Another suggestion idea. When you go to log an EarthCache, you are greeted with the option to "Send Answers." Why not do something similar for Challenges?

 

 ⟹

 

There could be a little script that scans the description for outgoing links matching the RegEx ^www.project-gc.com/Challenges/*$, and whatever it finds is linked to by the "Open Challenge Checker" button. It would, at least, make newbies wonder "hey, what's this" and perhaps prompt them to investigate more.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hügh
Merged my three posts into one.

[+Mausebiber]

Quote

There could be a little script ... www.project-gc.com/Challenges ...

You don't have to use project-gc to prove that you qualify, you can use any method like a screenshot form geocaching.com or GSAK or a just a plain list with the required information.  If I met the requirements today, and log the challenge, project-gc will give a negative response because it takes a couple of days for the site to update my status.

.

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Mausebiber

[+Mausebiber]

Maybe adding some guidance right at the top of the listing would avoid some confusion. 

 

The challenge cache may be logged as found online only after the logbook is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Mausebiber

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

Maybe adding some guidance right at the top of the listing would avoid some confusion. 

 

The challenge cache may be logged as found online only after the logbook is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented.

 

 

Um, no. For post-moratorium challenges, there is no requirement for finders to document their qualification. The Help Centre says:

 

Quote

• Cachers may sign a challenge cache's physical log at any time. However, the challenge cache may be logged as found online only after the log is signed and the challenge tasks have been met and documented.
• For cache pages published after April 21, 2015 with a challenge checker, the owner can confirm the finder's qualification with the checker when the cache is logged as found. No further documentation is required from the finder.

 

For these, it's the owner's responsibility to verify that a finder has qualified.

[+Hügh]

7 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

You don't have to use project-gc to prove that you qualify, you can use any method like a screenshot form geocaching.com or GSAK or a just a plain list with the required information.  If I met the requirements today, and log the challenge, project-gc will give a negative response because it takes a couple of days for the site to update my status.

 

Sure, but, that's not the point.

 

Changing the logging experience for Challenge Caches makes it more obvious to newbies that "something is different about this Mystery Cache." Whether they use or not is entirely up to them.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hügh

[+Mausebiber]

I'm not sure what your point is, but the TO said:

.

On 3/15/2021 at 12:32 AM, brendan714 said:

1) The ability to log a "found it" on a challenge cache should somehow be tied to a successful check on the challenge checker. 

.

All I'm saying is, that you will get a negative response from project-gc if you qualified and logged today, therefor, this is not a good solution.

[+Hügh]

2 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

All I'm saying is, that you will get a negative response from project-gc if you qualified and logged today, therefor, this is not a good solution.

 

The issue the Brendan has raised is with newbies logging Challenge Caches, without understanding what a Challenge Cache is, or how a Challenge Cache works. See?

 

On 3/14/2021 at 4:32 PM, brendan714 said:

As the owner, I am forced to delete the found log and write a lengthy email to the newbie cacher explaining what a challenge cache is and why they can't log a "found it".  I am usually met with a response that suggests pure confusion.

 

Preventing logging on the cache is a potential solution proposed as Brendan. I never commented on this solution.

 

The point of including a "Open Challenge Checker" button is so that a newbie, who doesn't know what a Challenge Cache is, might go... "What's this button? I've never seen this button before. / A Challenge Cache? What's that?" before going and doing their research and discovering that "oh! I'm not allowed to log this until I qualify for the Challenge. I see." My two other proposed changes follow a similar pattern—make the fact that there are additional logging requirements more obvious.

 

Once you get more experience, sure! Go and use a GSAK macro or whatever to check your qualifications. The button is not to force people to use the checker, rather, to make it obvious that the "rules" for logging this cache are different and that you (the end user) needs to go and do more research, first.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hügh

[+NYPaddleCacher]

2 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

I'm not sure what your point is, but the TO said:

.

.

All I'm saying is, that you will get a negative response from project-gc if you qualified and logged today, therefor, this is not a good solution.

 

Sure, that's today.   If the Groundspeak site and project-gc communicated through an api, data could be tranferred in real time.   That's that way APIs work (I'm an api developer).

[+JL_HSTRE]

The problems with Challenge cache logging is essentially the same problem faced by Earthcache, Virtual, and Webcam COs. The caches have a special cache type plus instructions on the cache page - often in the first line of the description. Yet with all that plus PMO they still get finds from people who don't fulfill the requirements and don't respond to messages.

 

I get occasional DNFs on my offset Multis because people don't read the cache page then wonder why they can't find the cache. 

[+Goldenwattle]

On 3/15/2021 at 11:50 PM, Isonzo Karst said:

I've had some "finds" of my challenges by novices. I generally message and, where I can,  email.  Wait 6 months, delete finds.

That's too long. The cacher could think nothing will happen if they log a challenge cache they don't qualify for and continue to log challenge caches that they shouldn't.

I don't have any challenge caches, but logs without signatures or proof of find, I contact the cacher and ask for proof, and then give them a week before I delete it. I used to give a fortnight, but I have found if I don't get an answer in a week, the extra week will make no difference. Plus more and more are claiming finds with no signature or other proof. and it's getting annoying.

[+Goldenwattle]

18 hours ago, Hügh said:

This dialog would pop up the first time (and only the first time) you tap on a cache with the Challenge Cache attribute in the app. Heck, it could even be added to the website too!

As neither virtual or challenge caches are a majority of caches, I don't see a major problem if a warning box appeared every time. It doesn't take much to click okay and continue with the log then as normal.

[+Hügh]

9 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

As neither virtual or challenge caches are a majority of caches, I don't see a major problem if a warning box appeared every time. It doesn't take much to click okay and continue with the log then as normal.

 

Possibly, though it may get annoying if you're trying to find a "powertrail" of Challenge caches. Perhaps a non-intrusive banner would work? Something like this? So, the EarthCache reminder banner...

 

 

...would become...

 

 

...and would appear after every "Found It" on a Challenge cache?

 

Or, perhaps there could be a permanent banner above Challenge Caches?

 

 

Same thing in the app, too.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Hügh

[+Lynx Humble]

On 3/16/2021 at 7:40 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Um, no. For post-moratorium challenges, there is no requirement for finders to document their qualification. The Help Centre says:

 

 

For these, it's the owner's responsibility to verify that a finder has qualified.

I still don't understand why the CO needs to do the extra work instead of the finder.

[+thebruce0]

Couple things.
If people have the Project-GC addon script installed in their browser, it adds a list of any finders who don't qualify by the checker.

Without a paid subscription COs can only run 5 checks a day, IIRC. Users aren't required to post qualifiers, and COs aren't required to verify users. But as with any other 'ALR' style cache, the onus is on the CO to maintain the integrity of their listings (after the fact of course, finders should not be posting false logs). That may be different in practice from CO to CO. The intent is that someone looking at the log history should be safe to assume that it's accurate.

 

I don't always post qualifiers. Mainly on easier ones, or where qualification is visible in the statistics.  But I also have a paid PGC membership, so if I'm ever curious or doubtful of someone's qualification, I'll test out their name.  And if I'm viewing another challenge and see that list at the top of unqualified finders, I don't assume that they never qualified (stats can change), but depending on the cache it could prompt me to contact the CO about potential false finds. (only considered that once though, because the challenge text had mixed instructions that confused)

[+fizzymagic]

9 hours ago, Lynx Humble said:

I still don't understand why the CO needs to do the extra work instead of the finder.

 

It is a part of Groundspeak's policy decision to make cache ownership as unpleasant as possible. 

 

I guess they believe that there is an oversupply of caches.

 

Perhaps they are right.  I certainly don't know why I keep hiding caches.  Yet I do.   I guess they have me where they want me.  Paying them and working for free.

[+MartyBartfast]

10 hours ago, Lynx Humble said:

I still don't understand why the CO needs to do the extra work instead of the finder.

I suppose that if the CO was being really diligent in policing their logs then they would have to perform that check anyway, I could just write

 

Quote

I found 1000 caches on April 1st, here's a list of GC codes

 

and the CO would either take me at my word or they would double check the truth of my claim.

 

 

 

 

[+Isonzo Karst]

MartyBartfast wrote what I was thinking.  Any post moratorium challenge must have a checker. It's sure easier for the owner to use it than it is to chase a list of qualifying finds in a log  or from a bookmark to see if they' correspond to logged finds.  It's not "extra work",   or "unpleasant" it's a darn sight easier  all around.

 

[+The Leprechauns]

Challenge Checkers, mandatory since the end of the Challenge Cache moratorium, replace the prior subjective standard with an objective standard.  The finder either passes the checker, or they don't.  Recall that one of the reasons for the moratorium was the high frequency of disputes between owners and finders of challenge caches.  The simple, objective test of the checker eliminates most of these disputes.  I have been motivated to hide a lot more challenge caches post-moratorium, because it's easier to verify compliance with the challenge requirements.

 

I knew when I hid my 16 challenge caches that verification was my responsibility, and that newbies would present most of the problems.  Every few months, I need to fill out and send this template to someone who doesn't qualify:

 

Quote

Hello, and thank you for your interest in my geocache, "[NAME OF CHALLENGE CACHE." As explained on the cache page, this is a challenge cache. You cannot log an online find until you meet the challenge requirements. For this challenge, you need to find [DESCRIBE CHALLENGE REQUIREMENTS]. You do not meet the challenge requirements at this time.

Please change your online find to a "Write Note" log, by going to Geocaching.com and editing your log entry. You can change it back to a find once you've met the challenge requirements. Let me know if you have any questions!

 

I wait a week or so, and then delete the non-compliant find.  It is not a lot of time out of my day.

[+brendan714]

4 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

It is not a lot of time out of my day.

It starts to become frustrating as a cache owner when:

a) It happens frequently (it seems to be happening more and more often for me)

 

b) Multiple cachers in the same group log finds on many different challenges in the same day (I once had a group of 4, each with separate accounts, find 4 of my challenges in one day - suddenly that's now 16 logs that I have to go in, delete manually one-by-one, then send a message to each person)

 

c) The cacher responds "but I found the cache, why can't I log a find?"  (it wastes my time to go back and forth with some of these cachers, some of which I'm sure are just kids)

[+brendan714]

I just went back through the history of my messages.  I found 4 different cachers where my challenge caches (logs now deleted) were the last caches they ever found!

I sent polite messages to each the cachers informing them of the rules and why I would be deleting their logs - and I invited them to post notes on the page. 

 

I get it - as a newbie it would be frustrating to pick up a new hobby, go out, find a bunch of caches, then later have all your finds deleted!

[+thebruce0]

I might suggest making your challenge caches PMO. For one, they are certainly more of an 'advanced' concept, and probably the people most likely to work on them are premium members. That would reduce the 'newbie' factor dramatically. If you want to keep it non-PMO for those new cachers, then it's a bullet you'll probably need to bite. Maybe make something more prominent in the cache title for those who don't read or look at any other aspect of the cache. Who knows. 

[+Isonzo Karst]

Per the opening post, brendan714's challenges are PMO.  

 

[+thebruce0]

Alrighty. Well just like EC owners should delete find logs from people who don't send in answers, COs of challenge caches can certainly delete finds by unqualified users. How one does that would be up to the CO (private message first, grace period, etc).  Of all the challenge caches I have, I haven't had a newbie post a find without understanding the qualification factor. (I have had a newbie claim a find and demand it on a treeclimb saying they didn't climb it but all caches should be accessible to everyone; nope).

More unknowing newbies may well be a localized or regional thing. I don't know what other solution there could be... Make sure the cache listing is clear, educate and inform, and don't give newbies the wrong idea by letting false logs stand. That's just the nature of the hobby and cache type, I'd say.

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

More unknowing newbies may well be a localized or regional thing. I don't know what other solution there could be...

 

You're lucky that you seem to have escaped the COVID lockdown driven PM-newbie syndrome. I started seeing them here about March last year and, to quote Shakespeare, they come not single spies but in battalions. The pattern is generally the same: premium membership prior to finding any caches, have never visited the website and their logs are often gibberish. I suspect a social media influencer somewhere has set them on their path of destruction.

[+thebruce0]

Oh there've been a lot of new geocachers in our region, but for whatever reason they don't seem to be mis-logging PMO challenge caches (that I've seen)

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by thebruce0

[+dprovan]

On 3/17/2021 at 6:12 PM, Lynx Humble said:

I still don't understand why the CO needs to do the extra work instead of the finder.

Who says the owner has to verify the qualifications? It's not "extra work", it's just the work necessary f he wants to reject people that don't qualify.

 

But if the owner does want to verify the qualifications, he has to do it. That's just a fact. Finders can only claim to be qualified: they cannot prove it.

[+frinklabs]

The OP's issue is easily fixed by implementing a system that separates the Found It from the challenge completion, with the simple addition of another log type.

 

[+brendan714]

7 hours ago, frinklabs said:

The OP's issue is easily fixed by implementing a system that separates the Found It from the challenge completion, with the simple addition of another log type.

This is not a good solution, in my opinion.  If anybody could claim a find on any challenge cache, it would be too easy to add a challenge component to any cache that would otherwise be a simple traditional cache.  Under this proposed system, a challenge cache would essentially serve the purpose of a traditional cache AND a challenge cache.  So why publish a traditional cache when you could instead post a challenge and get 2-for-1?

In my mind, that's a very slippery slope and not a good idea for the game.

[+brendan714]

Here you go, 2nd time this problem has happened in one week (different geocacher than 1 week ago).

 

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, brendan714 said:

Here you go, 2nd time this problem has happened in one week (different geocacher than 1 week ago).

 

 

This isn't intended as a criticism but just an observation that might help some to reduce the problem on future challenge hides. Looking at this particular challenge, I see it's one that would be physically challenging to qualify, namely five T5 traditionals with the "climbing gear required" attribute. The pictures on the cache page make it pretty clear what this challenge is about:

 

 

But the actual physical cache is nothing like the caches needed to qualify, it's almost the antithesis of them:

 

 

It appears to be a short walk across level ground from a well-formed trail in an urban reserve surrounded by lots of other caches:

 

 

It's little wonder then that the "press GO and follow the arrow" and "only look at the description if you get stuck" mob are logging finds on this without even realising it's a challenge cache.

 

I've only completed six challenge caches and they're spread over just three COs, so I'm hardly speaking from a position of great experience, but for those ones that have a physical element to the challenge, the challenge cache itself is the epitomy of that challenge. The Medium Hike Challenge is itself a medium hike and the D2,4T Challenge itself has a 2/4 rating. The Scenic Adventurer Challenge is another good example of this, as getting to it requires all the skills and agility that its qualifying hides do. That's something I've strived to do with my two challenges: the Slow Cooked Aussie Challenge, which requires 20 finds having the takes more than an hour attribute, is itself a 12km return hike that will take the best part of half a day to complete, and The Nemophilist Challenge, which requires a bunch of T4s and haunter-of-the-woods related attributes, itself is a T4 with all of those attributes.

 

That's not a complete solution, as I've had to deal with a couple of non-qualifier finders on Slow Cooked (that one's not helped by being alongside the popular but still challenging Great North Walk so it gets some passer-by finders), and it certainly couldn't be used for all those purely statistics-based challenges such as Fizzies and Jasmers, but for the physically-challenging challenges like your one, having the actual cache commensurate with the challenge would at least go some way towards ensuring that those who find the physical cache have the necessary aptitude and skills to complete the challenge.

Edited March 22, 2021 by barefootjeff

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, brendan714 said:

10 hours ago, frinklabs said:

The OP's issue is easily fixed by implementing a system that separates the Found It from the challenge completion, with the simple addition of another log type.

This is not a good solution, in my opinion.  If anybody could claim a find on any challenge cache, it would be too easy to add a challenge component to any cache that would otherwise be a simple traditional cache.  Under this proposed system, a challenge cache would essentially serve the purpose of a traditional cache AND a challenge cache.

 

That's discussed in that thread. If you have something to add, by all means raise it in a comment in that thread!  

[+The Jester]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

 

That's discussed in that thread. If you have something to add, by all means raise it in a comment in that thread!  

Shouldn't you give that same advice/suggestion to finklabs?  If he can (and does) put this "idea" out in every thread that talks about Challenge Caches, then rebuttals to that idea can be brought up in the same thread.

[+brendan714]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

That's discussed in that thread. If you have something to add, by all means raise it in a comment in that thread!  

He brought it up in my thread as a solution to my problem.  I think I'm well within the context of this thread to share my opinion on his proposed solution!

 

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

This isn't intended as a criticism but just an observation that might help some to reduce the problem on future challenge hides.

Thanks for pointing that out, it is something I've thought of and I don't necessarily disagree with you.  It's just that in my experience, I find that my caches get more eyes, more people interested and hence more (legitimate) finds if they are in the city vs hidden out in the mountains.  My strategy with my challenges is to challenge geocachers who wouldn't normally go visit the mountains to go.  If I hide my challenges in the mountains, the only interest I get is from the regular mountain geocachers.  So far I'm happy with how my strategy has paid off!  I've had plenty of interest on my challenges from those who I wouldn't expect!  I've even received messages from some cachers who claim some of my challenges are on their geocaching bucket lists.  That puts a smile on my face and in my mind was the goal of some of these challenges - and is something I'm fairly confident I wouldn't get if I went and hid the same cache out in the backcountry.

[+thebruce0]

9 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

11 hours ago, brendan714 said:

This is not a good solution, in my opinion.  If anybody could claim a find on any challenge cache, it would be too easy to add a challenge component to any cache that would otherwise be a simple traditional cache.  Under this proposed system, a challenge cache would essentially serve the purpose of a traditional cache AND a challenge cache.

 

That's discussed in that thread. If you have something to add, by all means raise it in a comment in that thread!  

7 hours ago, The Jester said:

Shouldn't you give that same advice/suggestion to finklabs?  If he can (and does) put this "idea" out in every thread that talks about Challenge Caches, then rebuttals to that idea can be brought up in the same thread.

7 hours ago, brendan714 said:

He brought it up in my thread as a solution to my problem.  I think I'm well within the context of this thread to share my opinion on his proposed solution!

 

I pointed out that the 'rebuttle' was already discussed in that thread, therefore rather than duplicating that discussion in this thread once again, if there's anything to add to the exchange that's already been had, then that thread about challenge stars would probably be a better place to bring it up again.  But whatever, I mean if it is indeed new info coming out for discussion, and it's not directly related to the challenge stars subject of that thread, then sure, post it here about this topic. Maybe someone else will copy it to that thread if it's also relevant to challenge stars.  All I saw with that comment was leading to duplicating a same discussion strand again in this thread when it would be more about the subject of that thread.