Photo Goals - Here to help

[+The Blue Quasar]

Hi everyone.

 

It's been a LONG time since I have spent any amount of time in Waymarking, and I transferred all of my Categories many years ago.  I'm not going to lie and say that I am refocused on Waymarking, but I will say that I know the potential that it has always had and the only reason for my departure was the lack of interest by locals.   With the recent addition of Adventure Labs it is obvious to anyone that Waymarking would be successful if it had an App and more importantly if Visits counted toward Geocaching Stats.

 

As for Photo Goals, as the original inventor of that Category, I am willing to put some time towards making it work again and hopefully restoring consistency and fun to it.  It is true that it is a tough Category and that is why the mandatory vote method was used.  As I have resumed the leadership position, I will try to make it what I believe we all envisioned it could be.

 

BUT, please bear with me as I need to relearn a lot about the details, coordinate with the Officers and maybe add some.  I did read the now closed forum, and while it is fair to say that responses were not forthcoming, to my knowledge the only channel used was these forums.  I had been back as an Officer for quite some time and no one raised any concerns with me directly.  Considering that the Category shows that I was the creator one would have thought if answers weren't coming that someone would have contacted me directly.

 

If I recall correctly, Photo Goals was a radical shift from the usual Category style.  It was the first to employ "you provide the coordinates" which was intended to emulate the original Locationless Cache idea from pre-2005.  But the content of the Photo Goals does need to be unique, of interest or challenge to others, and about all else fun.  That is pretty subjective I know.

 

Looking back over some recent submissions, several were accepted that maybe should not, some are fairly low goals, and some were accepted properly.  The most important thing is to do something out of the ordinary that others would say looks like something fun to do.  "Make a paper airplane" is not all that exciting, whereas "Fly a kite while on top of a 20+ story skyscraper" is.

 

All I can do is say that we will try better, and expect people to offer entertaining activities that illustrate fun and pride, not the mundane and dull.

[+The Blue Quasar]

15 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Would it help to have a summary of declined ideas, and accepted ideas?  

 

I stand by what I said in the other thread, that I shook my head when some of the more recent ones were published. My thought was, "How in the world did that pass a group vote?"

 

Thanks for posting.

 

Yes, honestly it would.... and those that remember me know that I will work to solve things, and if certain actions need to take place for the good of the game then that is what will happen.  I think it would be best if any such list was sent to me privately along with reasons.  Nothing is gained by throwing others under the bus publicly. 

[+Alfouine]

6 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Would it help to have a summary of declined ideas, and accepted ideas?  

 

 

Yes definitely

[+bluesnote]

Great idea! Maybe create a Google spreadsheet and link it in the category description? That way, it is easy to look up ideas that didn't pass.

[+Punga and Paua]

Please bring back the "Wear Your Best Suit" photo goal.  I've just completed the goal and now I see it has just been archived. Why? Just because someone thinks its not daring or death defying enough?? As my log stated, "Everyone likes getting dressed up now and then, and these days we don't seem to get enough opportunities to put our glad rags on. "

This is what photo goals used to be about, just doing something and having fun, didn't have to be an ‘eye rolling’ thing or a ‘Dare You’ thing. Getting really dressed up IS doing something, especially if it’s for an important occasion.

The Past Activity page makes interesting reading, so many Declines then Approves then Declines again, for the same goal, it looks like no-one knows what they're doing!

Wear Your Best Suit was one of those, approved and now gone,  PLEASE  bring it back for good!

[+Alfouine]

2 hours ago, Punga and Paua said:

And I'm saying this category WAS  already approved.  For some reason it has just been declined. I'm just asking for it to be brought back again.... end of story.

It was a mistake to approve this goal that is why we decide to vote again. we did no decline an old waymark, approved long time ago.

It's not the easiest category to manage because of part of subjectivity and we have to make choice

That is the only category where we call for a vote for all submissions and we have to select goals that are not too obvious to do.

[+The Blue Quasar]

As previously requested, please have patience with our group as we adjust and work towards being better.

 

Some points from above:

On 3/11/2021 at 10:23 PM, Punga and Paua said:

No-one is forcing you to do the goal, if you don't like it, don't do it.

This is a long used argument from many aspects of life, not just Waymarking.  While this is always true, it is not a valid way to determine if a proposed submission meets the criteria for inclusion in a category.  That is a post-publish aspect after something becomes public.

 

On 3/12/2021 at 9:37 AM, Max and 99 said:

The wording of the photo goals is driving me nuts. I'm guessing 1% of visits do what is asked. 

As a listing owner, just like in Geocaching, when a submission is proposed it comes with the agreement to monitor logs for compliance with the logging requirements.

 

On 3/11/2021 at 9:42 PM, Punga and Paua said:

The Past Activity page makes interesting reading, so many Declines then Approves then Declines again, for the same goal, it looks like no-one knows what they're doing!

This is the unfortunate fallout of needing to resolve issues that had been raised about the very nature of this category.  There were valid complaints brought forward, and to address them these past actions needed to be re-evaluated.  Retractions happen in all parts of life, statements of correction etc.

 

On 3/11/2021 at 11:21 PM, Max and 99 said:

I absolutely agree with this. But first, we as a community have been discussing in the forums  how to make the category better and more consistent. Then we can individually decide which photo goals waymarks we want to participate in. 

But I think consistency and clear guidelines are what needs to be addressed first by the officers. Not an easy task. 

Thank you for saying so.  Much appreciated.

 

[+The Blue Quasar]

So, I'm sitting here tonight looking over the list of submissions since I resumed leadership.  Here is a screen capture.

 

Some of these I was involved with, some I wasn't.  As there are only three officers, sometimes two NAY votes come in before I see it.  Sometimes I am one of the two NAY votes.  So please do not assume which officer voted for or against.  

 

Based on the above, some of these lack "ACTION" which is one of the main determining factors.  It's not enough to just get your photo at a location or doing something relatively mundane or ordinary.   It is true that it can be hard to put into words, especially since it can be subjective.  And I'm not going to lie, having skimmed through ones that were accepted over the years that I wasn't here it is pretty obvious how people may have a case to make that their new ones are not much different than the older ones.  However, we don't want this category to continue as uninspired.  A good rule of thumb is "Would people see this idea and find it out of the ordinary enough that it would be viewed as weird?"

 

Case in point... https://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/wm2BQJ_Photo_Show_Your_True_Colours

No one normally stands presenting a full sized flag of their home state/province to be photographed with.  To an outside observer, they would think "Weirdo".

 

Examples in the original category description are

Some examples might include being photographed:

• Being hit in the face with a pie
• Riding a unicycle
• Arm Wrestling with a Nun in her Habit
• Having a bucket of pudding or water dumped on your head
• Dressed as a reporter and while holding a microphone interviewing a named politician
• Participating in a grape stomping
• Stand under a waterfall and use an umbrella
• Give a policeman a piggyback ride

Compare these examples to the ones recently submitted and hopefully you can see the difference.

[+Punga and Paua]

Oooops, your waymark is not such a perfect example afterall.  Nothing unusual about having a photo taken with a flag.  But it is 'weirdo' though, the number of Country flags in there when you specifically said "National Flags will not be accepted". ...even hand-held small flags when  "they MUST be full sized! "  Shouldn't you, as the waymark owner, manage your goal visits and delete those that don't comply?

Or, should this Photo Goal be declined too,  just like the others? And where's the ACTION?  

[+Alfouine]

1 hour ago, Punga and Paua said:

Or, should this Photo Goal be declined too,  just like the others? And where's the ACTION?  

 

Old waymarks are grandfathered, we only revoted recently approved waymarks

[+Punga and Paua]

 

45 minutes ago, Alfouine said:

Old waymarks are grandfathered, we only revoted recently approved waymarks

What does this mean? What is "grandfathered?" That waymark is still on the site and can still be visited.

[+ScroogieII]

On 3/10/2021 at 4:25 PM, The Blue Quasar said:

It was the first to employ "you provide the coordinates"

 

' It was the first to employ "you provide the coordinates" '

Not really - ALL Waymarkers are required to provide (correct) coordinates.

 

Back in 1965 I flew a three stage paper airplane out over the Grand Canyon from the north wall, possibly the first, possibly the last, ever to do so. BTW, it flew a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way, before going out of sight.

Would an account of this feat be acceptable as a photo goal?

Just wondering.

Keith

[+Punga and Paua]

The different standards are creeping in again.

Can I quote an answer in the Waymark vote " I don’t know how many times it needs to be said that simply taking a photo of yourself, or some object is not a valid photo goal for this category. There must be an action associated. '  How did  Get "Arrested" pass the vote, sitting in a car and having a photo taken? Even the description says it all,  read it!  Its just taking a photo of yourself sitting in a car.  Looks like different standards again.

And to Scroogiell....love the idea of your paper aeroplane, if you have action photos that would be a good one, bring it on.... (but of course that's only my opinion).

[+The Blue Quasar]

On 3/14/2021 at 7:49 PM, ScroogieII said:

' It was the first to employ "you provide the coordinates" '

Not really - ALL Waymarkers are required to provide (correct) coordinates.

 

Perhaps you are misinterpreting my post.  Normally the Waymark CREATOR provides the coordinates.  Not so in this category.  While it is true that the creator does use the coordinates where they performed the Photo Goal, those that Visit do so at their own recorded set of coordinates not those of the listing.   No one needs to come to my house to perform the Photo Goal for "Show Your True Colours".  It can be done anywhere, they just have to provide the coordinates where they did it.

 

Much the same as is done in the U-Haul Category.

[+The Blue Quasar]

18 hours ago, Punga and Paua said:

How did  Get "Arrested" pass the vote, sitting in a car and having a photo taken?

 

This is actually a great example of something that should be published.  Unlike simply having your photo taken with an object, this is very difficult to arrange.  Police Officers are not simply going to let someone sit in the backseat and get photographed, nor are they likely to role play a fake arrest.  Try walking up to your average cop and say "Hey, I'm playing a photo game.  Can I get my picture with you pretending to arrest me?"  They might agree to standing together in a friendly pose, but not very often will a cop allow themselves or their car to be photographed in a mock criminal apprehension.  

 

The sample photo was obtained in a settling that allowed people to sit in the back seat.  Kudos to the creator of this Photo Goal.

Edited March 16, 2021 by The Blue Quasar

[+The Blue Quasar]

On 3/14/2021 at 12:14 AM, Punga and Paua said:

Oooops, your waymark is not such a perfect example afterall.  Nothing unusual about having a photo taken with a flag.  But it is 'weirdo' though, the number of Country flags in there when you specifically said "National Flags will not be accepted". ...even hand-held small flags when  "they MUST be full sized! "  Shouldn't you, as the waymark owner, manage your goal visits and delete those that don't comply?

Or, should this Photo Goal be declined too,  just like the others? And where's the ACTION?  

 

Perhaps a less sarcastic tone would yield better results.  I will admit there are likely some that should be deleted.  However, there are better ways to express your frustrations in a public forum where it appears that you would like instant updates.

[+The Blue Quasar]

4 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I personally find it so easy to miss the coordinate entry for photo goals when I visit. 

 

I have added that as a required variable.  Thanks for catching that.

[+The Blue Quasar]

1 minute ago, Max and 99 said:

I logged out then back in and I don't see anything different. To clarify when I go to visit a photo goal, I often miss the box that says recommended additional coordinates. 

 

Yup, you are right.  I added it but it is for creation of a new one.  It does not appear possible to create Visit requirements apart from suggesting it in the text.  

 

That's what I get for not being here for ten years.  I didn't remember that there are no mandatory logging entries, which makes sense.

[Becktracker]

Talking about double standards: 'Place a limb in two or more countries' is accepted but  my waymark 'place a limb across a great line of the earth (in my case the Equator)' is not. It was redundant because there already is a category for this (https://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=472e3f77-7b45-40d8-ae34-622e7d1263a9). What about this category: https://www.Waymarking.com/cat/details.aspx?f=1&guid=8520b0b6-6f37-4b50-b98e-babfe62d8655? And in this case my wife actually rolled with her eyes when I placed a foot in  each hemisphere.

[vulture1957]

the latest Photo Goal approved -- Graduate College -- take a photo of you graduating college. Yes, a real head shaker. " A good rule of thumb is "Would people see this idea and find it out of the ordinary enough that it would be viewed as weird?" "  yes, no one EVER gets their picture taken when graduating!

 

Double standards!

[+The Blue Quasar]

Thank you for your critical analysis of this most recent submission that was accepted.  While it is true that a significantly small portion of the community would be able to complete the requirements with ease using a photo of their success that was not related to the actual Waymark, many of the community would not have such a photo in their possession.  As such they would either have to re-create the photo or if it doesn’t apply to their history with regard to education then they will have to cosplay to achieve the goal. Personally I do not see a double standard in the acceptance of this photo goal.

[+Max and 99]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:44 AM, The Blue Quasar said:

many of the community would not have such a photo in their possession.  As such they would either have to re-create the photo or if it doesn’t apply to their history with regard to education then they will have to cosplay to achieve the goal.

I would not think that's an option considering the text of the waymark: You must graduate from college with a degree of some sort.

[vulture1957]

46 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I would not think that's an option considering the text of the waymark: You must graduate from college with a degree of some sort.

it doesn't matter. They just make up rules as they go. There is nothing about the category that is the same from day to day, waymark to waymark. It's up to the whims of the category managers and those that are in the "good old boys club" and get approved.

[+Max and 99]

I'm going to repeat something I said earlier, because I think it's important. There is often so much discrepancy between the title of the Photo Goal Waymark, the photos posted, and the description providing information on what needs to be done. These often don't match at all. I've noticed this quite often in the waymarks in this category in the past year. 

[+ScroogieII]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:54 AM, vulture1957 said:

the latest Photo Goal approved -- Graduate College -- take a photo of you graduating college. Yes, a real head shaker. " A good rule of thumb is "Would people see this idea and find it out of the ordinary enough that it would be viewed as weird?" "  yes, no one EVER gets their picture taken when graduating!

 

Double standards!

 

Thanks Lee, you're always good for a hearty LOL in these long, drawn out threads.

Keith

[+The Snowdog]

Based on the list given earlier this category has a "decline" rate of 83%. I wonder if there is any other WM category that comes anywhere near that. But it does make me feel better about my current batting average here, which is zero.

[+ScroogieII]

14 hours ago, The Snowdog said:

Based on the list given earlier this category has a "decline" rate of 83%. I wonder if there is any other WM category that comes anywhere near that. But it does make me feel better about my current batting average here, which is zero.

That's the attitude. You're not really batting .000 ; you're batting 17% over the league average.

Keith

[+The Snowdog]

Hmmm, I think that's about infinity percent below the league average. Since we have a pretty good idea of what's rejected, why not post a list of potential Photo Goals that haven't yet been submitted that have some chance of acceptance? 

[vulture1957]

1 hour ago, The Snowdog said:

Hmmm, I think that's about infinity percent below the league average. Since we have a pretty good idea of what's rejected, why not post a list of potential Photo Goals that haven't yet been submitted that have some chance of acceptance? 

well, after the last approval -- Take a Picture of Yourself Getting Married.

[+The Snowdog]

1 hour ago, vulture1957 said:

well, after the last approval -- Take a Picture of Yourself Getting Married.

 

I wouldn't have thought that taking a photo doing something that some people do once in their lives would be a valid "Photo Goal." Unless you're allowed to fake it, and that doesn't make any sense to me either.

[vulture1957]

On 6/9/2021 at 9:57 PM, The Snowdog said:

 

I wouldn't have thought that taking a photo doing something that some people do once in their lives would be a valid "Photo Goal." Unless you're allowed to fake it, and that doesn't make any sense to me either.

Blue Quasar specifically said you can "fake it or cosplay" to get a picture for a photo goal. So, it's not really a goal. Just take a picture of you doing something that you would normally do.

 

[vulture1957]

it is getting disgusting, the stuff that is being accepted now. This category should be closed!

[+Ariberna]

Hello, thebluequasar

Pleased to meet you