Feature Request: Limit certain actions by New Cachers

[+BigBadger & Li'l SG]

I have found that many new cachers when they cannot find a cache, will Request it be archived or require maintenance when they just missed the location or container.

 

Since this is a database heavy system, could the reasons for Requests for Maintenance be pulled from a drop down menu or check boxes, rather than just a series of confusing or incoherent comments made by a frustrated or inexperienced player? This may make it easier for reviewers to report on certain issues or even if they are remotely valid.

 

Also, maybe Newbies could be limited to not be able to request certain things such as owner maintenance or archiving until they reach a certain number of finds such as 250 or 500 until they have enough collected experience. I'm not against looking in the issues that may be apparent for the cache of a cache owner, but I have found many times that the reasons for these requests have been unfounded and the cache is right where it should be.

[+Max and 99]

1 minute ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

I have found that many new cachers when they cannot find a cache, will Request it be archived or require maintenance when they just missed the location or container.

 

Since this is a database heavy system, could the reasons for Requests for Maintenance be pulled from a drop down menu or check boxes, rather than just a series of confusing or incoherent comments made by a frustrated or inexperienced player? This may make it easier for reviewers to report on certain issues or even if they are remotely valid.

 

Also, maybe Newbies could be limited to not be able to request certain things such as owner maintenance or archiving until they reach a certain number of finds such as 250 or 500 until they have enough collected experience. I'm not against looking in the issues that may be apparent for the cache of a cache owner, but I have found many times that the reasons for these requests have been unfounded and the cache is right where it should be.

I see this happen quite frequently! I'm not opposed to your idea but I think 250 or 500 minimum find count is way too high. Just my opinion. 

[+BigBadger & Li'l SG]

Maybe you are right, but my experience is that the low number finders are the main concern with regard to this topic. I think certain actions throughout Geocaching should be earned, rather than expected. But that is another topic.

[+Max and 99]

6 minutes ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

Maybe you are right, but my experience is that the low number finders are the main concern with regard to this topic. I think certain actions throughout Geocaching should be earned, rather than expected. But that is another topic.

I agree. I just don't consider 500 a low number of finds. 

[+niraD]

35 minutes ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

Since this is a database heavy system, could the reasons for Requests for Maintenance be pulled from a drop down menu or check boxes, rather than just a series of confusing or incoherent comments made by a frustrated or inexperienced player? This may make it easier for reviewers to report on certain issues or even if they are remotely valid.

Once upon a time, geocachers had to actually explain (with words) why they thought a cache needed maintenance, or why they thought a cache should be archived.

 

As I recall, we still had newbies posting NM or NA logs when they just DNFed the cache. It isn't the drop-down menu or the checkboxes.

 

35 minutes ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

Also, maybe Newbies could be limited to not be able to request certain things such as owner maintenance or archiving until they reach a certain number of finds such as 250 or 500 until they have enough collected experience. I'm not against looking in the issues that may be apparent for the cache of a cache owner, but I have found many times that the reasons for these requests have been unfounded and the cache is right where it should be.

People on a numbers trail may be able to hit a find count of 250 or 500 in an afternoon. But for people who find a couple caches on a weekend hike, that can represent YEARS of geocaching.

 

Meanwhile, you're teaching new geocachers who haven't hit your magic find count yet, you're teaching them not to report problems at all. You're teaching them that all they can do is log a Find or DNF and move along.

 

I'd rather teach them how to use the tools properly, rather than taking the tools away from them.

 

For reference, see the Help Center article When a cache needs maintenance, which is in the Log your find online subsection of the Find a cache section.

[+cerberus1]

55 minutes ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

I have found that many new cachers when they cannot find a cache, will Request it be archived or require maintenance when they just missed the location or container.

 

Since this is a database heavy system, could the reasons for Requests for Maintenance be pulled from a drop down menu or check boxes, rather than just a series of confusing or incoherent comments made by a frustrated or inexperienced player? This may make it easier for reviewers to report on certain issues or even if they are remotely valid.

 

Also, maybe Newbies could be limited to not be able to request certain things such as owner maintenance or archiving until they reach a certain number of finds such as 250 or 500 until they have enough collected experience. I'm not against looking in the issues that may be apparent for the cache of a cache owner, but I have found many times that the reasons for these requests have been unfounded and the cache is right where it should be.

 

We started this hobby with more "knowledge" of it than many already caching for years.     

You're assumption is newbs don't read the guidelines, Geocaching 101, Terms of Use, and the Help Center.

We were familiar with all before our first cache (a Virtual) was found. Just how we are...

In fact, I had issues with Event Organizers when I told them I didn't need to "sign their log" (but did at request of the other 2/3rds to play nice). 

 

There are really easy ways to find 250 caches, none that teach you a darn thing...

IIRC, the default for new phone users was Found It,  which upset a lot of COs too (caches that were missing/needing maintenance got "found"). 

It isn't that way anymore ?

I'd rather leave a mail, explaining why NA wasn't the correct log as a learning experience.

Of course if they tell you to pound sand,  you forgetaboutit and move on.   

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by cerberus1

[+Harry Dolphin]

From a cacher with 18 finds in two months.

Quote

Needs Archived

 

Nothing is in the little magnetic box just paper for id and paper is filled with names so there is no room for anymore names

 

Checked it and the whole back of the log was empty.  

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

Also, maybe Newbies could be limited to not be able to request certain things such as owner maintenance or archiving until they reach a certain number of finds such as 250 or 500 until they have enough collected experience.

 

There are many places in the world where there aren't that many caches to find. It took me three years to get to 500 finds and a good percentage of those involved travelling outside my region (my actual 500th find was on Lord Howe Island 800km east of mainland Australia), as there are no power trails or other ways to quickly rack up finds around here. In that time, I'd hidden 18 caches, including one that won the regional Cache of the Year award in its category, and of those, 8 were traditionals, 6 were multis, 3 were mysteries and 1 was an EarthCache. I think I'd figured out by then how to log NMs and NAs.

 

There are some people who do all the homework and read all the guides on the website before they even venture out to find their first cache, and there are others who find hundreds of point-and-go traditionals then log an NM on a multi or mystery because there was no cache at the listed coordinates. While I feel your pain with the muggles-with-apps newbies, filtering by find count isn't going to work globally.

[+BigBadger & Li'l SG]

I really don't think it would affect new cachers negatively regardless. It may even just give them a goal. It's good to have goals.

 

Most all of us had purchased GPS's in the earlier years of caching, and I believe it put the older geocaching crowd in a slightly different category of enthusiast. Since the free cell phone apps became the norm for caching, things have changed, a lot. I'm certainly not saying ALL NEWBS ARE BAD at caching. But I stand by the idea to implement some form of check and balance for those new folk with free memberships and free apps. They just d/l an app and go find 100, then give up, meanwhile posting in a vein similar to an effortless facebook post that this cache is "(missing/or whatever)" and needs maintenance. I've had many Needs Maintenance and Needs Archive logs that are the only DNF, made by a person with very few finds, telling me to fix a perfectly fine cache. Don't tell me that isn't annoying. There has to be some middle ground here. I became a premium member immediately upon joining (granted it's a very small fee) but, as a paying member I had invested in the hobby both with the membership, and with the GPS (8 different ones at last count). You just don't get nearly as much of that commitment anymore. Things are given and expected and I, as a cache owner expect a bit of effort in logging or consideration of what receiving an NA or NM log entails.

 

But hey, it's just my opinion. Everyone should have at least one. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by BigBadger & Li'l SG
spelling and mis-speaking.

[+barefootjeff]

1 hour ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

I really don't think it would affect new cachers negatively regardless. It may even just give them a goal. It's good to have goals.

 

What about somewhere like Fiji where there are only 35 caches in the whole country? Or the Philippines with 196?

 

Even here in my local area, a basic member using the app will only see 32 caches:

 

 

Upgrade to premium and they'll have about 150 to pick from in that area:

 

 

But half of those are higher terrain ones (T3 and above) and you don't knock over dozens of those in a day. Getting to 500 finds in this part of the world takes a lot of time, a lot of effort and a lot of travelling.

 

Edit to add: There's a local cacher who joined in 2018 and is one of the more active cachers in this region. He's hidden 20 caches which have all been well received and is a conscientious CO who always prompty attends to any maintenance issues. Yet in the 3 years he's been playing, he's only made just over 200 finds, so by your measure he's a raw newbie who shouldn't be allowed to log NMs or NAs. Really?

Edited February 28, 2021 by barefootjeff

[+cerberus1]

36 minutes ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

 

...Since the free cell phone apps became the norm for caching, things have changed, a lot. I'm certainly not saying ALL NEWBS ARE BAD at caching. But I stand by the idea to implement some form of check and balance for those new folk with free memberships and free apps.

They just d/l an app and go find 100, then give up, meanwhile posting in a vein similar to an effortless facebook post that this cache is "(missing/or whatever)" and needs maintenance.

I've had many Owner Maintenance and Please Archive logs that are the only DNF, made by a person with very few finds, telling me to fix a perfectly fine cache. Don't tell me that isn't annoying. There has to be some middle ground here. I became a premium member immediately upon joining (granted it's a very small fee) but, as a paying member I had invested in the hobby both with the membership, and with the GPS (8 different ones at last count). You just don't get nearly as much of that commitment anymore. Things are given and expected and I, as a cache owner expect a bit of effort in logging or consideration of what receiving an OM or PA log entails.

 

Just in case a newb's reading this thread, only a CO can write an Owner Maintenance log.   

 A cacher leaves a Needs Maintenance, or Needs Archive log if ongoing issues, and a Did Not Find if they didn't find it.

 -  Explained in "When a cache needs maintenance" in the  Help Center.

 

 

Simple to just make all your caches PMO if you feel it's an issue with newbs.   

Here, most newbs are becoming PM immediately for some odd reason...

Whole different group that "wings it" these days. Everything from phones to PCs.

When the "intro" app was around, and many of our ammo cans were moved, it bugged us a lot. 

Turns out they thought "it was supposed to be that way..." when others found our ammo cans (with the original labels n all...) on other trails. 

That's been a while and we've since calmed down a bit.

Edited February 28, 2021 by cerberus1
tinsteadaf

[+TriciaG]

I'd rather get an NM or NA log from a newbie when the cache didn't need it, than no NM or NA logs at all when the cache DOES need it.

 

So if this were a vote, I'd vote a solid "no."

[+dprovan]

6 hours ago, niraD said:

Once upon a time, geocachers had to actually explain (with words) why they thought a cache needed maintenance, or why they thought a cache should be archived.

 

As I recall, we still had newbies posting NM or NA logs when they just DNFed the cache. It isn't the drop-down menu or the checkboxes.

Actually, I don't remember newbies posting NMs or NAs being a problem back when, to post one, you had to do more than a check a box. So I have to wonder if that change is a factor. But, on the other hand, I don't see NAs to be much of a problem today, and when newbies post NMs that aren't really called for, I find in most cases they're posting them properly according to the checkbox labels even though most of us don't think a full log is a reason to post an NM.

[+Crow-T-Robot]

Wouldn't it be better for the game to reach out and teach them how to use the tools correctly than to take the tools away from them?

 

 

[+werla]

The problem is that most of the newbies create their GC account via app and don't validate it on the website (in fact, they don't visit the website at all, let alone the help section). As a result, you can't e-mail them. I found this out when I tried to contact a newbie to tell him/her about writing logs with more than one word.

[+dprovan]

9 hours ago, werla said:

The problem is that most of the newbies create their GC account via app and don't validate it on the website (in fact, they don't visit the website at all, let alone the help section). As a result, you can't e-mail them. I found this out when I tried to contact a newbie to tell him/her about writing logs with more than one word.

Now that makes sense: don't limit actions based on being a newbie, limit them based on whether the account's been validated.

Edited February 28, 2021 by dprovan
fix typo: "not" should have been "now"

[+cerberus1]

10 hours ago, werla said:

The problem is that most of the newbies create their GC account via app and don't validate it on the website (in fact, they don't visit the website at all, let alone the help section).

As a result, you can't e-mail them. I found this out when I tried to contact a newbie to tell him/her about writing logs with more than one word.

 

Curious, isn't there info pages to click (similar to a nag screen) the first couple times a new member logs in ?  There used to be...   Thanks.  

We have many long-time phone users (my other 2/3rds is one) who never need to visit the website.  It's not just new folks.

IIRC, the "message center" was supposedly created to contact those few people who don't have a listed email with the site.

 - Did you try that ?

[+BigBadger & Li'l SG]

Lots of great discussion here! Thanks for all the input. Yes, I think many can agree that there is room for improvement. There are already many silly or arbitrary rules and changes that have been there since the beginning or have happened over the 15 years since I've been caching.

 

I have literally watched a new family of cachers take the entire cache (Ammo box) back to their car because the "little girl wanted it." And I was the bad guy for telling them that's not how it works. A few more checks and balances to tighten up the system is all I'd be looking for. 

 

My favourite thing about reading the posts are the instant responses like "You can't do that!", and "But what about this?"... I'd rather see suggestions of how to improve, over how not to 'take from me'.... Gotta love the justice warriors out to right the wrongs.

[+dprovan]

1 hour ago, BigBadger & Li'l SG said:

My favourite thing about reading the posts are the instant responses like "You can't do that!", and "But what about this?"... I'd rather see suggestions of how to improve, over how not to 'take from me'.... Gotta love the justice warriors out to right the wrongs.

Well, to be fair, you did title this "feature request", so yes/no responses are reasonable. In this particular case, I find that newbies are blamed too much for problems that aren't actually exclusively theirs, and more experienced cachers can be rather intolerant of newbies mistakes.

 

I'm not quite sure who you're thinking of as justice warriors, but one thing that makes the newbie issue more of a problem these days is that geocaching has followed the marked trend in the U.S. from a society with individuals interacting with each other under limited oversight by a central authority to one where Groundspeak is responsible for everything that happens, so people are much more likely now to see new rules as the solution to anything they imagine to be a problem and are less inclined to feel any responsibility for helping newbies learn from their mistakes.

[+Hügh]

On 2/27/2021 at 8:09 PM, Crow-T-Robot said:

Wouldn't it be better for the game to reach out and teach them how to use the tools correctly than to take the tools away from them?

 

On this line of thinking...

 

When you first open a cache of a certain type (in the app), you are greeted by a dialog that looks like this.

 

 

What about something similar, for the first time you try to post a log of a certain type? That way, you are certainly a "newbie" (it is your first time using the log type, after all.)

 

Alternatively, what about making the "help text" in the app more prominent?

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Hügh

[+L0ne.R]

I looked at the OP's cache hides and don't see any unwarranted NMs.  I'm with TriciaG, as an owner (and as a finder) I'd rather a newbie NM mistake than no NM/NA logging when a cache does need it. It's already difficult enough to figure out how to post an NM using the app. And it's not that easy on the website either. You have to know to "opt out", or notice the "Report a Problem" on the lower right of the comment box. Few people log NMs and NAs as it is. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by L0ne.R
removed dup image