NC STATE PARKS

May 24, 2001

It seems ... like Georgia ... the state of NC is confused by geocaching. I've read everything from ... "you need a special event authr." to "no sporting events off trail" as in the case of the Stone Mtn. cache. I guess they forgot that you can rock climb there. Why I'm writing this is ... simple ... does anyone know how we can address this in a positive way? The rangers at Pilot Mtn and Hanging Rock don't seem to have gone anal retentive yet ... but like Georgia ... who knows when a memo from on high will come down on the negative side of the equation. Any thoughts?

May 25, 2001

Here's my thought. Why don't you contact the folks on high in NC and talk to them. Find out who the programs director is for NC parks and get him intrigued with Geocaching. I've talked to the programs director for Tennessee state parks, Charlie Tate, and he was interested in finding some way to allow Geocaching that would alleviate possible problems that could occur without the park services involvement.

The biggest thing I see in keeping the parks open to Geocaching is that those people wanting to establish a cache on park lands, or any land, need to get permission first. It only takes a few minutes to make a phone call and I've found that these folks are extremely approachable.

May 25, 2001

I appreciate your response ... this has been done on a lower level in the example of Pilot Mtn and Hanging Rock. Unfortunately in the eastern part of the state it seems to be more of a ... hardnose ... approach from the powers to be. But maybe with the right contact ... someone can see the benefits of this type of activity ... in just bringing people and families into the park. After all ... people being familiar with a park and using it is what ultimately brings support to maintaining the park and establishing its value to a community.

Again ... thanks ... I believe I'll start on this myself. If anyone out there has already made some contacts ... I'd appreciate hearing about it.

July 17, 2001

I see geocachers in NC have problems and opportunities analogous to those we have here in GA. Geocaching is not on the list of approved activities for the Georgia State Parks, and is consequently banned. We've formed the GGA - Georgia Geocachers Association - with the intent of presenting a more united voice to the Parks authority.

You're considering having a Charlotte area geocachers gathering - I suggest you think about taking that as an opportunity to discuss common concerns and form an association. Make it more than a fun social event if you can. I drove to North Carolina this past weekend to hunt (and find) two geocaches there and certainly want to be able to continue to do this. Help protect NC geocaching for me and my family!!! Thanks

July 19, 2001

Sorry to take so long to get back ... I'm in Bolivia ... and seems like it's going to be forever ...

No, to answer your question ... I haven't heard squat from the NC State park boys ... I sent a very nice letter to the head man ... and even followed up with a call ... but other than speaking with a very nice lady in his office ... I haven't heard back from them. I'll be back in country in a couple of weeks ... I'll try again ...

I've been using city parks and public land other than the NC State parks since this all started to happen ... they've removed some really nice caches ... very much a shame ...

Oh well ... I'm going for a record this weekend ... HIGHEST CACHE IN THE WORLD ... here in Bolivia ... does anyone know of one over 13,380 feet? Don't think the NC State boys will be able to remove "Hawk 6" ... but you never know ...

July 19, 2001

Sorry to take so long to get back ... I'm in Bolivia ... and seems like it's going to be forever ...

No, to answer your question ... I haven't heard squat from the NC State park boys ... I sent a very nice letter to the head man ... and even followed up with a call ... but other than speaking with a very nice lady in his office ... I haven't heard back from them. I'll be back in country in a couple of weeks ... I'll try again ...

I've been using city parks and public land other than the NC State parks since this all started to happen ... they've removed some really nice caches ... very much a shame ...

Oh well ... I'm going for a record this weekend ... HIGHEST CACHE IN THE WORLD ... here in Bolivia ... does anyone know of one over 13,380 feet? Don't think the NC State boys will be able to remove "Hawk 6" ... but you never know ...

February 26, 2002

Hawk-eye,any luck with the parks yet?

There is plenty national forest land in NC.

Has there been any trouble in other states with forest land?

March 22, 2002

BEING ONE OF THE FEW? TO HAVE A CACHE BUSTED BY THE STATE I CAN RELATE.THE NCPS NOTIFIED ME THAT THEY HAD MY CACHE.I CALLED TO SEE IF I WOULD GET BUSTED BY CLAIMING IT.THE ANSWER WAS NO.

I CALLED LTL JON AND TOLD HIM WHAT HAPPENED AND BEING THERE WAS A NEW CACHE IN THE PARK WOULD HE LIKE TO GO.LOOKING FOR THE NEW CACHE WE CAME UPON AN AREA THAT LOOKED LIKE IT HAD BEEN ROOTED UP BY HOGS.

CAME TO FIND OUT THE RANGERS HAD ALSO BEEN TRYING TO FIND IT.I BELIEVE THEY DID MORE DAMAGE THAN ANY CACHER EVER WOULD.

1k · March 25, 2002

Keep an eye out for caches posted in state parks by accident or by folks that don't know the policy of our NC State Parks ... I just helped relocate a cache that a fellow cacher (from out of the area) placed in one of our state parks ... What we did was move it to an area not in the boundary of the park. When I stopped by the park office to advise them that we had removed it ... they were very helpful and friendly. As in ALL my contacts with State Park employees (at four different parks) ... I can say one thing for sure ... we have a large group of people that are hard working, rational, underpaid, dedicated to preserving our parks for our use and like most of us ... stuck working within the dictates coming out of Raleigh. There appears to be a large number of new people in the upper levels of the state park system ... hopefully not all of them are just there to make a name for themselves or jockey for position ... but are there to help these rank and file people accomplish their jobs. The job of preserving our state parks for us and future generations. Sadly some in Raleigh appear to think that preserving is the same as making them completely hands-off. If you think I have a gut wrenching hatred for politics (not government) in all forms as well as people that feel they are more important than the job they are tasked to do ... you're right

1k · March 25, 2002

Keep an eye out for caches posted in state parks by accident or by folks that don't know the policy of our NC State Parks ... I just helped relocate a cache that a fellow cacher (from out of the area) placed in one of our state parks ... What we did was move it to an area not in the boundary of the park. When I stopped by the park office to advise them that we had removed it ... they were very helpful and friendly. As in ALL my contacts with State Park employees (at four different parks) ... I can say one thing for sure ... we have a large group of people that are hard working, rational, underpaid, dedicated to preserving our parks for our use and like most of us ... stuck working within the dictates coming out of Raleigh. There appears to be a large number of new people in the upper levels of the state park system ... hopefully not all of them are just there to make a name for themselves or jockey for position ... but are there to help these rank and file people accomplish their jobs. The job of preserving our state parks for us and future generations. Sadly some in Raleigh appear to think that preserving is the same as making them completely hands-off. If you think I have a gut wrenching hatred for politics (not government) in all forms as well as people that feel they are more important than the job they are tasked to do ... you're right

1k · March 28, 2002

I would absolutely love to do this ... what I've experience on the local level is that they are very interested ... Caches were approved ahead of time last year in Pilot and Hanging Rock ... by the local people ... a group of the "new" hires in Raleigh are the problem ... actually a lot of the park's problems seem to come from this definite appearance of Raleigh being out of touch with the local parks! This didn't come from disgruntled employees either ... these were long time dedicated rangers and admins. people. I admire what they are doing under what I consider a handicap ... and I'm not just talking about things like geocaching.

Anyway if you'd like to talk some about this ... drop me an email (thru my profile)... oh, and welcome aboard ... there's a great bunch of cachers in NC and I think you'll really enjoy this activity ... Come up toward Greensboro if you get a chance ... got a lot of interesting caches at all levels of difficulties. OK ... most are mine ... but my friend Jerry has a couple of real interesting one's you definitely don't want to miss!

April 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:
HIGHEST CACHE IN THE WORLD ... here in Bolivia ...

I didn't know Brunswick County was over 13,000 feet...

Seriously though, I've gotten a lot of support from the Mecklenburg county parks and rec about our sport. We just need to keep asking the State parks and work with them when placing caches. There are a few places in the system that a well placed cache won't cause any more impact than usual usage. I agree with Hawk-eye in that we need to comply with the rangers until we can work in their system to their satisfaction.

April 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk-eye:
HIGHEST CACHE IN THE WORLD ... here in Bolivia ...

I didn't know Brunswick County was over 13,000 feet...

Seriously though, I've gotten a lot of support from the Mecklenburg county parks and rec about our sport. We just need to keep asking the State parks and work with them when placing caches. There are a few places in the system that a well placed cache won't cause any more impact than usual usage. I agree with Hawk-eye in that we need to comply with the rangers until we can work in their system to their satisfaction.

1k · April 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Snowtrail:
...I didn't know Brunswick County was over 13,000 feet... .....

Funny Girl ... not Bolivia, NC silly ...

but seriously, I'm in contact by email with Kevin to see if we can set something up to make this happen. Probably going to need some assistance eventually. I'll keep the progress updated on this string.

[This message was edited by Hawk-eye on April 03, 2002 at 06:49 PM.]

1k · April 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Snowtrail:
...I didn't know Brunswick County was over 13,000 feet... .....

Funny Girl ... not Bolivia, NC silly ...

but seriously, I'm in contact by email with Kevin to see if we can set something up to make this happen. Probably going to need some assistance eventually. I'll keep the progress updated on this string.

[This message was edited by Hawk-eye on April 03, 2002 at 06:49 PM.]

April 9, 2002

Greetings all NC geocachers

I've been doing this for a year and placed 2 caches last spring. One in Hanging Rock and the other in Pilot Mt. Both removed by rangers. I got so discouraged i quit for a while. Just now getting back into it and another cache located just yards from the boundries of Pilot Mt. state park has vanished. Dont know if the rangers got it or not. This cache was placed by an unknowing person and Hawk took it upon himself to relocate it outside of the park and inform the rangers. Dont get me wrong i'm not upset at the rangers, but this is getting silly. They want us (the general public) to visit the park. The more visitors they have the better they look in the eyes of the people that fund them. What better way than geocaching to help promote more visitors to the park system. It cost them nothing! It is harmless if caches are placed responsibly. And increases traffic into the park. I'm not going to let this one get me down, there are plenty of caches out there to find. But, I have found myself visiting NC state parks less lately. I just might boycott them all together until we get a reprise. Shame too since I can see Pilot Mt. from my front porch.

1k · April 11, 2002

What's the waypoint of that cache ... "Cache as Cache Can"? or post the link if you don't mind.

April 11, 2002

I think it's GC4725.

1k · April 11, 2002

Thanks D&D

1k · April 20, 2002

So far one phone call ... no response ... two letters no response ... It's getting a little annoying.

On your analogy ...

quote:
Sure it's "public" land, but it's for all the "public". Think of this another way. If someone hid a cache anywhere in your backyard that they wanted to (if you owned a bunch of land), and invited people from around the world to visit it (without your permission), how would you deal with it?

Not really a good one ... it "is" open to the world and the park invites people there as well as many, many other websites commerical and private ... check out several of the online outdoor sites just for example ... virtually all of them promote and list these public lands (not only in NC) for a variety of outdoor activities ... without the Parks permission. Nit picking for sure ... but not much of a position for them to defend.

But back to your original question ... so far nothing.

1k · April 20, 2002

So far one phone call ... no response ... two letters no response ... It's getting a little annoying.

On your analogy ...

quote:
Sure it's "public" land, but it's for all the "public". Think of this another way. If someone hid a cache anywhere in your backyard that they wanted to (if you owned a bunch of land), and invited people from around the world to visit it (without your permission), how would you deal with it?

Not really a good one ... it "is" open to the world and the park invites people there as well as many, many other websites commerical and private ... check out several of the online outdoor sites just for example ... virtually all of them promote and list these public lands (not only in NC) for a variety of outdoor activities ... without the Parks permission. Nit picking for sure ... but not much of a position for them to defend.

But back to your original question ... so far nothing.

April 22, 2002

UGH! I hate politics. Maybe if those of us who wanted to place caches did it under the supervision of the park staff, they wouldn't get in such a tizzy about it? What if we scoped out the joint first, then showed them how and where we would place it, and how it wouldn't disturb the scenery or anything? Or would that be too easy? I said something to that ranger fella about how it was a shame that they were removing caches, and he just kinda patted me on the head and said, "Yeah, it is." Maybe I didn't approach him the right way, but I thought I went prepared. Did I mention I hated politics?

Lone Ranger guy, my grandfather worked for Parks and Recreation years ago. His name was Ralph J. Andrews, and he died a LONG time ago, like over 20 years or so. Don't know how long you worked for them, but do you remember him? I barely knew him, so if he was a poop you can tell me. (Actually, I'd like to know.) Great way to treat family, huh? My father said he had a park named after him, either in Raleigh or Cullowhee. I think.

I don't have a clue who to call to talk to about this. I promise to be nice if someone will tell me! I know there are people out there who won't play by the rules, but those of us who do outnumber them. Again, I hate to see this sport tainted.

Thanks for reading the Gripes.

Hugadog

April 22, 2002

UGH! I hate politics. Maybe if those of us who wanted to place caches did it under the supervision of the park staff, they wouldn't get in such a tizzy about it? What if we scoped out the joint first, then showed them how and where we would place it, and how it wouldn't disturb the scenery or anything? Or would that be too easy? I said something to that ranger fella about how it was a shame that they were removing caches, and he just kinda patted me on the head and said, "Yeah, it is." Maybe I didn't approach him the right way, but I thought I went prepared. Did I mention I hated politics?

Lone Ranger guy, my grandfather worked for Parks and Recreation years ago. His name was Ralph J. Andrews, and he died a LONG time ago, like over 20 years or so. Don't know how long you worked for them, but do you remember him? I barely knew him, so if he was a poop you can tell me. (Actually, I'd like to know.) Great way to treat family, huh? My father said he had a park named after him, either in Raleigh or Cullowhee. I think.

I don't have a clue who to call to talk to about this. I promise to be nice if someone will tell me! I know there are people out there who won't play by the rules, but those of us who do outnumber them. Again, I hate to see this sport tainted.

Thanks for reading the Gripes.

Hugadog

April 22, 2002

Uh, for starters...sorry I called you Lone Ranger guy. Duh. Should've gone back to look again before addressing you, huh?

Thanks for replying to me, and for the information. Don't know when I'll get to this, but I will.

hugadog

June 7, 2002

I found one of the caches hidden in South Mountain State Park before it was removed. I found it after the Park Rangers had already started looking for it according to the logs. But the cache was very well hidden. The Park Service or Rangers (might be some finger pointin' goin' on here) labeled the cache as litter. When I hunted this cache, I also picked up a ton (figuratively speaking) along the stream feeding the big falls. The area looked like it hadn't been cleared of trash in a long time. But "by Goosh" they found that geocache litter. I also hunted a geocache in Lake Norman State Park. After not finding it, I actually talked to the Park Supervisor. He told me that geocachers were not very good people in his mind . He said he would check with his supervisor about the viability of placing caches there with permission, but nothing has ever come of that. In May I attended the Columbia Convergence (an event-cache) at Sesquicentennial State Park in Columbia, South Carolina. Participants there were actually showing a very eager Park Ranger how to hunt a geocache. And then (get this), he said he had several locations that would be good to hide a cache in, and would they mind . I guess the North Carolina State Park Service would have fired that traitor on the spot. I really have a hard time following the NC Parks logic on this one !

June 7, 2002

I found one of the caches hidden in South Mountain State Park before it was removed. I found it after the Park Rangers had already started looking for it according to the logs. But the cache was very well hidden. The Park Service or Rangers (might be some finger pointin' goin' on here) labeled the cache as litter. When I hunted this cache, I also picked up a ton (figuratively speaking) along the stream feeding the big falls. The area looked like it hadn't been cleared of trash in a long time. But "by Goosh" they found that geocache litter. I also hunted a geocache in Lake Norman State Park. After not finding it, I actually talked to the Park Supervisor. He told me that geocachers were not very good people in his mind . He said he would check with his supervisor about the viability of placing caches there with permission, but nothing has ever come of that. In May I attended the Columbia Convergence (an event-cache) at Sesquicentennial State Park in Columbia, South Carolina. Participants there were actually showing a very eager Park Ranger how to hunt a geocache. And then (get this), he said he had several locations that would be good to hide a cache in, and would they mind . I guess the North Carolina State Park Service would have fired that traitor on the spot. I really have a hard time following the NC Parks logic on this one !

July 25, 2002

Congratulations and thanks to whoever pushed through the new directive that allows geocaching in NC Parks. Getting a legitimate process for placing caches in State Parks sounds like a battle victory to me.

The war's not over. Maybe over time the fee can get whittled down and the length of permitted placement extended through the Parks seeing successful geocaching activities with positive instead of negative impacts.

Perhaps the fee could be reworked so it doesn't serve as an individual cache permit, but becomes a license fee of sorts whereby an individual geocacher through demonstration of respect for the needs of the parks is able to place geocaches in any park. I would suggest hunting and fishing licenses as a possible precedent. Just food for thought.

Be Seeing You!

July 25, 2002

but why the heck would they only allow it to stay for 3 months?? Jeez. Again, my youth and idealism are showing through. Ah well. It's a start, and a good one. It could be a lot worse, huh? Thanks to whoever pushed it! Great job!

July 25, 2002

I mentioned the 3 month limit to another geocacher and his immediate reply, "to stop extra trails, huh?" Makes sense to me from seeing new trails created by geocachers' wanderings. Some caches around here are really easy to find just from the packed down vegetation that point right at them.

Be Seeing You!

July 26, 2002

Maybe the 3-month time limit will allow the Parks to disallow that cache if it becomes a problem in that specific area. That sounds reasonable for a new activity.

Let me know how the rest of us can help out on this issue.

BG

BGSkierNC@yahoo.com

1k · July 27, 2002

While it can be said that something is better than nothing ... charging $25 for a 3 month cache ... and the money not even going to the park (ie, the general fund ... where our "spend like there's no tomorrow" governor can get his hands on it ... while probably laying off x% of park employees down the road) ... really bites. Are they really repsonding to growing need ... or just identifying another source of revenues. I don't think I'll bother placing one myself. No disrespect intended, but you can't compare this to hunting and fishing licences ... that money actually goes into programs for wildlife management.

Sorry about the rant ... maybe it's just the anticipation of the heat (90 plus Degrees) we're suppose to get today!

----------------------------------------------------------------

Co-founder of the "NC/VA GEO-HOG ASSOCIATION"

... when you absolutely have to find it first!

1k · July 27, 2002

While it can be said that something is better than nothing ... charging $25 for a 3 month cache ... and the money not even going to the park (ie, the general fund ... where our "spend like there's no tomorrow" governor can get his hands on it ... while probably laying off x% of park employees down the road) ... really bites. Are they really repsonding to growing need ... or just identifying another source of revenues. I don't think I'll bother placing one myself. No disrespect intended, but you can't compare this to hunting and fishing licences ... that money actually goes into programs for wildlife management.

Sorry about the rant ... maybe it's just the anticipation of the heat (90 plus Degrees) we're suppose to get today!

----------------------------------------------------------------

Co-founder of the "NC/VA GEO-HOG ASSOCIATION"

... when you absolutely have to find it first!

July 27, 2002

I agree that cache fees should go directly back to the parks and that the current situation is far from ideal. My suggestion comparing the possibility of geocaching licenses to hunting and fishing licenses has nothing to do with the current policy.

What I am suggesting as something to work towards is a policy would connect a geocacher to a formal acceptance of rules no more invasive than what Geocaching.com already provides (which is a pretty good balance between fun and responsibility). Collected fees should go to support the parks in the manner that I assume hunting and fishing license fees support those venues (do they?). The State will probably want some kind of notification of each cache location which could be easily handled by mailing in the cache page.

As an aside, please be respectful to government officials you encounter or contact. I've read in the forums of instances where geocachers were successfully working the system only to have someone go off on a ranger or politician about how we own the parks and they have no right to tell us how to use them. Yes, we own the parks though they own the rules and have the responsiblity of managing the properties on our behalf. This new policy should indicate that it is possible to work the system though it does take work to achieve the ideal.

Number 6 has left the soap box.

Be Seeing You!

August 2, 2002

I got a copy of the directive. It is dated June 26, 2002, from Philip K. McKnelly with the subject of "Geocaching Policy." My OCR didn't too well with this, so I'm keying it in from scratch; please give me a break on the discovery of typos The opening description of geocaching is something you are all familiar with it, but I wanted you to have the entire text of the directive.

* * *

This staff directive is to establish a policy to manage geocaching. Geocaching (GPS Stash, GeoStash) involves the placement of a container with various items within it in a specific location and then posting the Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) coordinates to a website. Visitors to the website then attempt to locate this container using the GPS. This activity started soon after the U.S. Department of Defense turned off the selective availability of the GPS signals in May 2000. This improved the accuracy of most recreational GPS units to 10-20 meters. Contents of the container can be anything and typically involves the exchange of items. Another aspect of this activity is virtual caching. This does not involve the actual placement of a cache; rather, coordinates are provided for a specific location where there is a unique natural feature, park sign, etc.

Geocaches have been placed in our state paks without the approval of park staff. These placements have resulted in the following concerns:

* Caches have been placed in sensitive natural or cultural areas.

* Caches may contain inappropriate or dangerous items. (One park cache contained prescription drugs.)

* Caches have lead to the creation of spur trails resulting in resource damage and the possibility of visitors leaving established trails and becoming lost.

* Caches may be placed in dangerous or inappropriate areas such as on a cliff or underwater.

* The location of a cache may invite the public into an area we do not inspect for hazards.

In consideration of the above concerns it has been decided to manage geocaching through the use of the special activity permit procedure on a trial basis. If this activity is found to have a negative impact on the park resources or presents public safety issues the park superintendent may ban geocaching from specific park areas or the entire park. The following conditions are to be addressed when issuing a geocaching special activity permit:

* Virtual caches should be encouraged in lieu of physical caches.

* The $25 permit fee is to be waived for virtual caches.

* The persona applying for the permit shall provide a valid address and telephone number.

* The cache placement location, including GPS coordinates, must be stated on the permit and approved by the park superintendent to minimize undesirable impacts to cultural and natural resources as well as minimize hazards to the public.

* A specific time period when a cache may be left in place shall be designated to minimize the creation of spur trails. At the end of the designated time period the cache is to be removed and the web site posting retired by the permit holder. The actual time period the cache is permitted to be in place will be determined by the park superintendent, not to exceed three months.

* Caches may not be buried, nor may vegetation or stones be disturbed when selecting cache locations.

* Cache containers are to be transparent and have some form of latch or other closure to deter wildlife.

* Contents of the cache are subject to inspection by park staff at any time; park staff will have the authority to remove any items deemed unacceptable. Examples include food, medications of any type, pornography, weapons of any type, etc. A log book is encouraged in lieu of exchange items.

* All cache website postings must request the cache searchers to leave a note on their vehicle dashboard identifying the operator as being a geocachers (sic). Orienteering groups in parks currently do this for safety reasons.

Geocaches and any contents that are removed by park staff are to be documents in a case incident report. Park staff should periodically review the geocachings websites to monitor caches placed within the park.

This staff directive is effective immediately.

* * *

That's the end of the directive. I'll post my comments separately to avoid confusion.

-honeychile-

'*+.,_,.+*'`'*+.,_A joyful heart is good medicine!_,.+*'`'*+.,_,.+*'`

August 2, 2002