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2.5 yr old DNF cache in conflict with new potential cache

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Hello, (edit 11/20/20: this issue has been resolved.   If you are curious....read on, but please read all posts before responding)

  10 days ago my wife and I placed a cache in a private (but open to public) nature preserve.   We have full permission, as we work/volunteer at the nature preserve and we are the designated "geocaching" representatives.   No one else is permitted to place caches in the preserve unless they consult with us first. 

   However, our cache is close to an old cache across the creek which has not been found for 2.5 years.  Before that, it was reported water logged, as this area is a flood plain that floods 3-4 times a year.   Also, the old cache is on verified private property (we know the owner, which also donated the nature preserve we work at).

   I asked for the old cache to be archived, but have heard nothing in 10 days.   I also emailed the cache owner, but the cache owner has 0 finds, and 1 hide, and was last reported on the Geocaching website in 2016, so the cache owner obviously doesn't care about geocaching anymore.  Seems like a slam dunk to archive the cache and move on, but we have heard nothing.  

   We placed 2 more caches, but those have no conflict.....just need time for the reviewer to see them.

 

Mike

 

 

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14 minutes ago, 5cachers said:

... last reported on the Geocaching website in 2016, so the cache owner obviously doesn't care about geocaching anymore.

 

If a geocacher uses only an app on a smartphone, may seems that he's inactive, while not.

You already placed the NA, but ten days is a small period of time (especially during the pandemic)... probably your local reviewer will act in a month or two.

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1 hour ago, 5cachers said:

 No one else is permitted to place caches in the preserve unless they consult with us first.

Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

 

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You can't really expect a cache to be instantly archived based on one NA log.  You can expect to wait the usual couple months, depending on the Reviewer workload and area.  COVID has relaxed the time limits on some archivals to allow the CO more time to respond because of lockdown orders, etc.

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This question does not relate to getting started with geocaching, so I moved the thread to the proper forum.

 

While the "Needs Archived" log works through the process, your cache page will serve to "reserve the spot" so it can be published if and when the other cache is archived.

 

The only way to shortcut the process is if the landowner requests the archival (as opposed to a volunteer for a nature preserve next door to that property).  A landowner can contact Geocaching HQ via the Help Center.  HQ typically archives caches immediately in response to landowner complaints, because caches on private property must have permission.

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4 hours ago, 5cachers said:

Hello,

  10 days ago my wife and I placed a cache in a private (but open to public) nature preserve.   We have full permission, as we work/volunteer at the nature preserve and we are the designated "geocaching" representatives.   No one else is permitted to place caches in the preserve unless they consult with us first.

   However, our cache is close to an old cache across the creek which has not been found for 2.5 years.  Before that, it was reported water logged, as this area is a flood plain that floods 3-4 times a year.   Also, the old cache is on verified private property (we know the owner, which also donated the nature preserve we work at).

   I asked for the old cache to be archived, but have heard nothing in 10 days.   I also emailed the cache owner, but the cache owner has 0 finds, and 1 hide, and was last reported on the Geocaching website in 2016, so the cache owner obviously doesn't care about geocaching anymore.  Seems like a slam dunk to archive the cache and move on, but we have heard nothing.  

   We placed 2 more caches, but those have no conflict.....just need time for the reviewer to see them.

 

Mike

 

 

Bam! It's gone!

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19 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Bam! It's gone!

 

Indeed it is!  My prior post should have mentioned the other possibility:  the cache owner can always respond to a "Needs Archived" log by archiving their cache.  That happened here.  From time to time, a geocacher who has not been active for years will resurface to attend to maintenance issues.  This is the value of the "Needs Maintenance" and "Needs Archived" log types.

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Mehhhhh, Cross the creek and post multiple DNF's ... that would be an attention getter.

 

FWIW:  that behavior / behavior on the part of a newbie on a phone app was pulled on me.  Garnered me a "visit" from "The Cache Health Police"

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13 hours ago, 5cachers said:

However, our cache is close to an old cache across the creek which has not been found for 2.5 years.  Before that, it was reported water logged, as this area is a flood plain that floods 3-4 times a year.   Also, the old cache is on verified private property (we know the owner, which also donated the nature preserve we work at).

 

Did you ever go looking for the cache in question?

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Hi folks,

   Thanks for all the posts!   FYI, the cache owner responded to my email last night.   He moved 4 years ago and forgot about the cache.   The cache did have multiple DNFs in the past 2 years, so it's physically gone (probably due to repeated aggressive floods in the area.)  The owner archived the cache.

   So now I just wait for the new caches to be approved.   

 

Thanks!

 

 

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14 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

 

No conflict of interest.   In the nature preserve, we have numerous sensitive restoration and wildlife activites ongoing.   In one area we have bee hives, in another area we have bob white quail that we are raising and releasing, and in many other areas we have prairie grass restoration efforts ongoing.   Plus, the nature preserve board of directors is very sensitive about anything that gets placed or built in the preserve, so activities like this must be monitored.   Not my rules.....the board of directors, who own/govern the property set the rules.

And the cache I requested to be archived (and was) is on private property that is currently in the process of being sold.  The property owner has placed chains and "no trespassing" signs everywhere.  I don't agree with his actions, since his property connects a neighborhood to the nature preserve, but it's his property.  Plus, his family donated the nature preserve land, so I have to be careful and sensitive to his wishes (ie he also sits on the preserve board of directors).

 

But since the cache in question was archived last night, the problem/conflict has been resolved.   All is good.

Edited by 5cachers
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13 minutes ago, 5cachers said:

No conflict of interest. 

 

15 hours ago, 5cachers said:

10 days ago my wife and I placed a cache in a private (but open to public) nature preserve.   We have full permission, as we work/volunteer at the nature preserve and we are the designated "geocaching" representatives.   No one else is permitted to place caches in the preserve unless they consult with us first.

It is. 

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47 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

 

It is. 

Ok....I see your point...perhaps I should have phrased my sentence differently.   The manager of the property (and board member) requested that we monitor all geocaching activity, and make sure no other caches are placed unless discussed first.   Due to distance constraints, only 4-5 caches on the property are possible anyway.   But if geocaching causes a problem (too much traffic, etc), then we'll have to remove all the caches.    It's a private preserve, so the board can do whatever it wants....not my call....we just help out.

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17 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

 

 

Max - On the surface, it SOUNDS like it.

 

"If you want to put a cache here you have to go through me, and I hide caches, too."

 

But, if you're the person associated with the property who knows about Geocaching, is it wrong for the land manager to ask you to review requests for hides? No, probably not.

 

Of course, the potential conflict comes in if you also want to hide something there, and you use your position to your advantage over someone else.

 

The only remedy would be for the OP to recuse him or herself from hiding caches at the preserve. If the preserve actually WANTS a cache there to attract visitors, then the OP would have to explain to them, "No, sorry, I can't, even though I hide caches in other places." Seems a bit obtuse.

 

In a bigger, more important context I'd be more worked up over it, but absent any indication in this case of the OP being a $%#@$, I'd not get my knickers in an ethical twist over it.

 

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18 hours ago, Max and 99 said:
19 hours ago, 5cachers said:

 No one else is permitted to place caches in the preserve unless they consult with us first.

Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

I don't see the conflict. He's a 3rd party granted exclusive rights to plant caches in that preserve. That's a privilege, not a conflict. Subsequent posts makes it sound like the OP is an agent of the preserve for other reasons, but I don't even see that making any difference. The preserve is free to forbid geocaching, allow any geocaching, or anything else, including granting exclusive rights to plant geocaches to the first person who asks.

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Thanks folks.   My wife and I are very chill people and are not trying to do this as a "power play" or cause any conflict.   We are retired and have been geocaching for ~20 years (with a long break when the kids were no longer interested....now it's just the two of us).    We are very active volunteers at the preserve....native plant restoration, quail restoration, maintenance (I take care of the tractors, mowers, irrigation pumps, etc) and are not paid.   We are the only volunteers who know geocaching, and that's how we got the role by default.   There was another person who volunteered and had caches 10+ years ago, but she is long gone, and so are her caches. 

 

If one of the other volunteers wants to place caches....no problemo.    But the board wants people who are actively involved in the preserve to place/manage the caches.....not some outsider with no skin in the game.   Like I mentioned.....their rules, not mine.   

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18 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

 

Sounds like the Preserve has allowed to OP to place caches in the preserve and has also appointed the OP as the manager of any future placements. No conflict. 

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You guys are doing fine. No conflict. It's nice to see someone doing some responsible land management combined with geocaching.

The preserve could have just banned geocaching completely.

Some people just have too much time on their hands...

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Congratulations! You may want to consider providing parking coordinates because looking at the map I have no idea where to park or enter. Since the cache is recommended for tourists, which is what I would be, I'd be lost trying to figure out an allowed access. 

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

Congratulations! You may want to consider providing parking coordinates because looking at the map I have no idea where to park or enter. Since the cache is recommended for tourists, which is what I would be, I'd be lost trying to figure out an allowed access. 

 

Looking at trails maps, and if I was visiting the area,  I would park at [33.090721, -96.707246]

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Thanks Max and 99.   Probably not a bad idea, since the main parking area has construction right now (but should finish in a week or two).   The preserve has a webpage with directions to the official parking lot, which highlights an alternate area for parking in a nearby neighborhood park.

 

igator210: That's certainly a spot that can be used, since it is a public city park and has concrete trails that lead to the preserve, but there is another neighborhood park with closer access.     

 

EDIT: I did add parking coordinates (two options), with a little text.

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1 hour ago, igator210 said:

 

Looking at trails maps, and if I was visiting the area,  I would park at [33.090721, -96.707246]

Good catch! That is very helpful.

 

If I'm in the area, using the app, I would expect to see a parking waypoint on the cache page, not have to access the website and search for where to park. It would be very helpful to have the parking waypoint with caches like this. I really like that when I visit new cities for a geotour (which are popular for tourists), the cache page quite often has a parking waypoint associated with it. Very helpful when you're not familiar with the area!

Edited by Max and 99
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18 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Good catch! That is very helpful.

 

If I'm in the area, using the app, I would expect to see a parking waypoint on the cache page, not have to access the website and search for where to park. It would be very helpful to have the parking waypoint with caches like this. I really like that when I visit new cities for a geotour (which are popular for tourists), the cache page quite often has a parking waypoint associated with it. Very helpful when you're not familiar with the area!

 

Your expectations are your problem and nobody else's. You couldn't win with the "conflict of interest" idea so now you're micromanaging someone else's cache. Do you REALLY need help to find the best parking spot with 14 years of experience?

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4 hours ago, bflentje said:

Do you REALLY need help to find the best parking spot with 14 years of experience?

With almost 20 years experience, I still need help finding parking for some caches when I'm traveling.  Most GPSr's take you to the closest piece of road, which often is not a good place to start from.  I don't know how many times the GPSr has tried to take me up roads that don't exist or have been closed for years - not being a local I have no hope of knowing better.  So, yes, parking co-ords are very nice for out-of-towners passing thru.

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12 minutes ago, The Jester said:

With almost 20 years experience, I still need help finding parking for some caches when I'm traveling. 

Most GPSr's take you to the closest piece of road, which often is not a good place to start from. 

I don't know how many times the GPSr has tried to take me up roads that don't exist or have been closed for years - not being a local I have no hope of knowing better.  So, yes, parking co-ords are very nice for out-of-towners passing thru.

 

Yep.  Here, us locals can't even find parking without it added.  :D

There's a few game lands, where the entrances are alongside people's homes. Some split off their driveways.

Others cut through peoples property (farms mostly), and one's almost a mile along their driveway, then through their corn field.  :)

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21 minutes ago, The Jester said:

With almost 20 years experience, I still need help finding parking for some caches when I'm traveling.  Most GPSr's take you to the closest piece of road, which often is not a good place to start from.  I don't know how many times the GPSr has tried to take me up roads that don't exist or have been closed for years - not being a local I have no hope of knowing better.  So, yes, parking co-ords are very nice for out-of-towners passing thru.

 

I provide either parking coordinates or a trail head on most of my caches because they're often a fair hike from the road and the driving directions on the cache page or in the app just go to the nearest road which is often on the wrong side of private property or a cliff. For example, on GC8DQXK the driving directions say to approach along Nagari Road and drive through the Woy Woy Waste Management Facility but the man at the gate won't let you do that or even walk through the tip. The correct place to start is at the trail head to the east in The Citidel.

 

image.png.fc527ba426606ebdd4299d2ec257b431.png

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6 hours ago, bflentje said:

Do you REALLY need help to find the best parking spot with 14 years of experience?

Parking/trail head coordinates should be mandatory on every cache page.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

I provide either parking coordinates or a trail head on most of my caches because they're often a fair hike from the road and the driving directions on the cache page or in the app just go to the nearest road which is often on the wrong side of private property or a cliff. For example, on GC8DQXK the driving directions say to approach along Nagari Road and drive through the Woy Woy Waste Management Facility but the man at the gate won't let you do that or even walk through the tip. The correct place to start is at the trail head to the east in The Citidel.

 

image.png.fc527ba426606ebdd4299d2ec257b431.png

Sounds like a clever trick. Was it reflected in the difficulty?

 

11 minutes ago, Lynx Humble said:

Parking/trail head coordinates should be mandatory on every cache page.

Should we also mandate that all containers be painted with neon colors so no one has trouble finding them any more than they have trouble finding a suitable trailhead?

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This thread seems to have strayed OT. Perhaps a Mod could separate it?

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3 hours ago, The Jester said:

With almost 20 years experience, I still need help finding parking for some caches when I'm traveling.  Most GPSr's take you to the closest piece of road, which often is not a good place to start from.  I don't know how many times the GPSr has tried to take me up roads that don't exist or have been closed for years - not being a local I have no hope of knowing better.  So, yes, parking co-ords are very nice for out-of-towners passing thru.

 

Huh?  Most handheld GPS receivers have an option of navigation routing "by road" or "off road".   If the setting is set to "by road" it  *will* follow roads, but otherwise it will basically ignore roads.    I've often wondered how much of an impact that auto navigation GPS devices, which defaulted to routing by road, had on the hobby as it locations were always on/near a road.   

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7 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

Huh?  Most handheld GPS receivers have an option of navigation routing "by road" or "off road".   If the setting is set to "by road" it  *will* follow roads, but otherwise it will basically ignore roads.    I've often wondered how much of an impact that auto navigation GPS devices, which defaulted to routing by road, had on the hobby as it locations were always on/near a road.   

And when I'm hundreds or thousands of miles from home, in an area I've never been to, what good is an arrow pointing directly at the cache (with distance).  That does nothing to help find the parking spot.  If I'm approaching from the north, the arrow is pointing south - how does that help me find the parking that's to the east?  I actually use both - one GPSr set to road navigation ("navigation computer") , and one pointing at the cache ("targeting computer").  Between the two I've found my way to most caches, but I do recall a time in Delaware where we gave up the search because we could not find how to approach the cache (the parking lot of a women's prison is not a good place to park a car & trailer then wander into the woods, not counting the fence in the way - the only other option we could find had a manned gate to some installation that also didn't look like a place to take car & trailer).  If the parking co-ords are listed, then I can navigate to there.

 

While I think parking/trail head co-ords are good, I don't think they should be mandatory, as many cache flat out don't need them.  And with some caches, finding the way in is part of the journey/problem to solve.  There were a number of those around here years ago, before the NorthWest Trail Project began (building a trail map of the region for GPSr's), then they kind of faded away since you could look at the trail map and easily find your way (heck, I remember a discussion here in the forums if the (then) new GPSr's with road maps were cheating - my, my, how this activity has changed).

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17 hours ago, colleda said:

This thread seems to have strayed OT. Perhaps a Mod could separate it?

I think this would be a really entertaining stand-a-lone topic, given the rather intense reactions above on whether parking coords should be available to every cache.

 

For those in countries celebrating the holiday, Happy Thanksgiving!!!  May we all appreciate what we have!

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On 11/26/2020 at 10:16 AM, Clancy's Crew said:

I think this would be a really entertaining stand-a-lone topic, given the rather intense reactions above on whether parking coords should be available to every cache.

Yup, I agree.

There's only one type of cache that definitely doesn't need parking coords: Parking lot hides! :antenna:

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1 hour ago, TmdAndGG said:

There's only one type of cache that definitely doesn't need parking coords: Parking lot hides! :antenna:

I've found a couple caches where the whole point of the cache is to find a safe and legal way to access the location. In those cases, parking coordinates would have been a spoiler. So that's another type that doesn't need parking coordinates.

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