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Matekarlo

Why is this happening?

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Hello.

 

I write for other people opinions. I try to hide the treasure in the library, but the reviewer refuses to publish it. Why is this still happening? The library staff and the director know about the geo-treasure, agree, do not object and even want to have it. The funniest thing is that another library in the same city has a geo-treasure like mine and it’s legal and mine already illegal?

 

Seriously, why can some do it and others not?

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47 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I write for other people opinions. I try to hide the treasure in the library, but the reviewer refuses to publish it. Why is this still happening? The library staff and the director know about the geo-treasure, agree, do not object and even want to have it. The funniest thing is that another library in the same city has a geo-treasure like mine and it’s legal and mine already illegal?

Usually, the problem with library caches is that they don't involve sufficient use of accurate GPS coordinates. The coordinates of a general location like the building entrance or the parking lot are not enough. But none of us can see your unpublished cache listing, so we can only guess. Your best bet is to work with your volunteer reviewer. Be sure to read (and reread) any reviewer notes posted to your unpublished cache listing.

 

See also the Help Center article Indoor geocaches.

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Because there can't be any traditional caches inside a building because they would lack of GPS usage, and you mustn't interact with anyone in order to get the cache...

 

But tbh, your reviewer told you that already.

 

For reference: Help Center and Guideline

 

And of course there is never a precedence, but you we've also been informed about that already.

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10 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I have found a number of caches in libraries, in various countries.

This, this this! :)

 

I'm doing this in the same way as here -

GC70NKH

 

Still, don't want to publish. I sent the last message if he still disagrees, will have to go and take the geo-treasure back with me. Unfortunately, double standards...

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24 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I have found a number of caches in libraries, in various countries.

 

Same here, libraries not in various countries though. I did find some indoor, library, museum, tourist office and even a few shops internationally. Only a few were traditionals.

 

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But your cache is NOT designed the same way as GC70NKH.  Even if it was, the publication of any cache does not serve as precedent for any future cache, like yours.  That's especially the case when a cache does not meet the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.

 

Your cache requires interaction with the library staff, who are holding the cache behind a service desk.  GC70NKH does not.  Interaction with staff is not permitted.

 

There are thousands of library caches hidden around the world, because they meet the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.  With a few simple changes, yours can be one of them.  Follow the guidance provided in the Help Center article that's already been linked twice in prior helpful replies to your thread.  Or, feel free to remove your cache and ignore the helpful guidance provided by your reviewer and other posters to this thread.

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4 minutes ago, Keystone said:

our cache requires interaction with the library staff, who are holding the cache behind a service desk.  GC70NKH does not.  Interaction with staff is not permitted.

The caches in libraries that I found didn't need interaction with staff. They were hidden on a shelf among other books. Usually a hollowed out book. Maybe about a boring subject most people would not be interested in. Sometimes their clue was the book shelf number. Naturally the staff knew. They have to know.

Do make the coordinates where the actual book is though. One library cache had the coordinates outside in the garden, near the building wall (no, the cache was not the other side of the wall), and I spent ages searching there :mad:. It was only when I stopped to read the description I found where it really was.

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18 minutes ago, Keystone said:

But your cache is NOT designed the same way as GC70NKH.  Even if it was, the publication of any cache does not serve as precedent for any future cache, like yours.  That's especially the case when a cache does not meet the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.

 

Your cache requires interaction with the library staff, who are holding the cache behind a service desk.  GC70NKH does not.  Interaction with staff is not permitted.

 

There are thousands of library caches hidden around the world, because they meet the Geocache Hiding Guidelines.  With a few simple changes, yours can be one of them.  Follow the guidance provided in the Help Center article that's already been linked twice in prior helpful replies to your thread.  Or, feel free to remove your cache and ignore the helpful guidance provided by your reviewer and other posters to this thread.

Well, this in not a first time when reviewer won't publish my cache, but last time we found a solution.. :)

 

And trust me, my cache is almost same as GC70NKH. Coords are fine, work hours are published, staff agreed, everything is fine . You came inside, say a keywords and getting a cache. But I see, nothing I can do to get this cache published. Oh well, i guess i'll need to retrieve it, or find another way to hide it.. :)

Edited by Matekarlo

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21 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

And trust me, my cache is almost same as GC70NKH. Coords are fine, work hours are published, staff agreed, everything is fine . You came inside, say a keywords and getting a cache. But I see, nothing I can do to get this cache published. Oh well, i guess i'll need to retrieve it

Why are you so attached to saying a keyword to get the cache from the staff? If you get rid of that staff interaction, then you can publish your cache.

 

As a reminder, here's what Keystone said about your cache:

37 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Your cache requires interaction with the library staff, who are holding the cache behind a service desk.  GC70NKH does not.  Interaction with staff is not permitted.

 

Edited by niraD
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12 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

The caches in libraries that I found didn't need interaction with staff. They were hidden on a shelf among other books. Usually a hollowed out book. Maybe about a boring subject most people would not be interested in.

The biography section is a good option. I found the biography of G. O'Cache very interesting. :D

 

I've also found a library cache that was hidden in the children's section of the library, as one of the decorations placed on top of the bookshelves (out of reach of the children).

 

12 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Do make the coordinates where the actual book is though.

As GerandKat wrote, library caches can't be traditional caches according to the current interpretation of the guidelines. The posted coordinates have to be somewhere outside with GPS reception. (Either that, or the library stage has to provide information that leads to an outdoor stage, one with accurate GPS coordinates of course.)

 

12 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

One library cache had the coordinates outside in the garden, near the building wall (no, the cache was not the other side of the wall), and I spent ages searching there :mad:. It was only when I stopped to read the description I found where it really was.

One of my favorite library caches had the posted coordinates outside in the garden. That's where the clue was that told you where in the library to look.

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4 minutes ago, niraD said:

The biography section is a good option. I found the biography of G. O'Cache very interesting. :D

 

I've also found a library cache that was hidden in the children's section of the library, as one of the decorations placed on top of the bookshelves (out of reach of the children).

 

As GerandKat wrote, library caches can't be traditional caches according to the current interpretation of the guidelines. The posted coordinates have to be somewhere outside with GPS reception. (Either that, or the library stage has to provide information that leads to an outdoor stage, one with accurate GPS coordinates of course.)

 

One of my favorite library caches had the posted coordinates outside in the garden. That's where the clue was that told you where in the library to look.

 

One of the library caches that I found (and I would do one if I placed on in the library where I worked) used an outside location, which require the use of a GPS to find, with a container which had a library "call number".  Then, using that call number,  one went into the library to "the stacks" and the location of that call number indicated, where a cache container was found.  In the case of the one I did, it was a hollowed out book with a fake cover.

 

What I liked about it was that even though library call numbers aren't the same as geographical coordinates, they're a different form of the language of location.

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30 minutes ago, niraD said:

library caches can't be traditional caches according to the current interpretation of the guidelines.

When did that change? I think most library caches I have found have been traditional.

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As a reviewer, I've consistently said that traditional caches cannot be hidden indoors for more than a decade.  All library caches (or other indoor caches in non-commercial locations) must have an outdoors stage where GPS coordinates can be used in a meaningful way.  I just checked the Reviewers' private forum, and the earliest discussion of this issue dates back to 2003!

 

The Help Center article on indoor caches is far more recent, but in my mind it simply collected and communicated existing guidance.

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57 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I just got back from the library. I think we have found a solution. If not - I give up

You removed the requirement to interact with staff, which is a step in the right direction.  But, your cache is still a Traditional cache that is not located at the posted coordinates - it is inside a building.  All you need to do is create an outdoors stage, like in the library parking lot or a nearby park, that people can find with a GPS.  This first stage would contain the step-by-step instructions that are currently provided in your new hint.  You would, of course, change the cache type to Multi-Cache.

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13 minutes ago, Keystone said:

You removed the requirement to interact with staff, which is a step in the right direction.  But, your cache is still a Traditional cache that is not located at the posted coordinates - it is inside a building.  All you need to do is create an outdoors stage, like in the library parking lot or a nearby park, that people can find with a GPS.  This first stage would contain the step-by-step instructions that are currently provided in your new hint.  You would, of course, change the cache type to Multi-Cache.

What do you mean "not located at the posted coordinates"? It is. It's room coordinates, inside the building, parking coords are nearby. Also I changed the hint. I really don't understand that - "not located at the posted coordinates." No hard feelings, but my cache are really on new coordinates, hint is simple, no need to talk with workers.

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From the Help Center article that's been linked multiple times:

 

Quote

All geocaches must involve GPS use. Inside buildings, GPS signal is either unreliable or not present. To follow the GPS rule, indoor caches must have an additional stage outdoors. Coordinates at the entrance to the building are not enough.

The outdoor stage can be before or after the indoor stage. Because they must have more than one stage, indoor caches can never be traditional caches.

 

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6 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

What do you mean "not located at the posted coordinates"? It is. It's room coordinates, inside the building, parking coords are nearby. Also I changed the hint. I really don't understand that - "not located at the posted coordinates." No hard feelings, but my cache are really on new coordinates, hint is simple, no need to talk with workers.

This one is easy to fix. I hope you continue to work with the reviewer so you can get the cache published! 

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4 minutes ago, Keystone said:

From the Help Center article that's been linked multiple times:

 

 

Wow, then how other traditional cache hide inside library passed the reviewer?

Just now, Max and 99 said:

This one is easy to fix. I hope you continue to work with the reviewer so you can get the cache published! 

How it's easy? :( there is no room for multi or even a mystery cache. I really love geocaching, but these rules.. god.. i can't understand how the first traditonal libery cache in my town was publeshed.

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9 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

How it's easy? :( there is no room for multi or even a mystery cache. I really love geocaching, but these rules.. god.. i can't understand how the first traditonal libery cache in my town was publeshed.

You mean there is no room for a physical multi or mystery cache outside the library? You can make the outdoor stage a virtual one like a sign or a plaque. Answering questions on that virtual stage can tell you how to find the cache inside the Library. 

 

Final container indoors

If the final container is inside a building, then the outdoor stage must provide essential information for finding the final container. Players should not be able to find the final container without completing the outdoor stage. The outdoor stage can be physical or virtual.

Here are examples of essential information:

  • The catalog number of a book in a public library.
  • The combination to a lock on the final container.
  • A description of where the cache is hidden inside the building, if the container is not in an obvious place.
Edited by Max and 99
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8 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

How it's easy? :( there is no room for multi or even a mystery cache

 

Make it a multi. Starting coordinates nearby where there's a sign/statue... with numbers. Use numbers to calculate the coordinates you already have inside the Library. Use the info on the starting coordinates to give a clue where the cache is. There's always room is the coordinates for the traditional cleared.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

there is no room for multi or even a mystery cache. 

 

I see some traditional caches to the south and east of the library that would block an outdoors physical stage in that direction.  But, you have quite a bit of room to the north and west of the library to work with.  Tip:  there are no hidden waypoints for other mystery or multi-caches within .5 miles of the library.

 

Or, you can use a virtual outdoors stage like Max and 99 suggested.

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4 hours ago, Matekarlo said:

Hello.

 

I write for other people opinions. I try to hide the treasure in the library, but the reviewer refuses to publish it. Why is this still happening? The library staff and the director know about the geo-treasure, agree, do not object and even want to have it. The funniest thing is that another library in the same city has a geo-treasure like mine and it’s legal and mine already illegal?

 

Seriously, why can some do it and others not?

We're trying to help you! Maybe if you show us the sign outside we can help you come up with a question for the final cache. 

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Just now, Keystone said:

I see some traditional caches to the south and east of the library that would block an outdoors physical stage in that direction.  But, you have quite a bit of room to the north and west of the library to work with.  Tip:  there are no hidden waypoints for other mystery or multi-caches within .5 miles of the library.

Ooh! That's helpful to the OP. So a physical outside stage would work!

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13 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

You mean there is no room for a physical multi or mystery cache outside the library? You can make the outdoor stage a virtual one like a sign or a plaque. Answering questions on that virtual stage can tell you how to find the cache inside the Library. 

 

Final container indoors

If the final container is inside a building, then the outdoor stage must provide essential information for finding the final container. Players should not be able to find the final container without completing the outdoor stage. The outdoor stage can be physical or virtual.

Here are examples of essential information:

  • The catalog number of a book in a public library.
  • The combination to a lock on the final container.
  • A description of where the cache is hidden inside the building, if the container is not in an obvious place.

 

But, wait.. my hint is the key to find a cache, I also can put him on description. There is no need essential information for finding the  container. It's really difficult to understand what's the point of these rules.. My cache is completle safe, hint is clearly, all information are given. The most confusing thing how they published other cache from library at my town. Also traditional.. like this - GC70NKH

 

Happy for him, but how....

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, on4bam said:

 

Make it a multi. Starting coordinates nearby where there's a sign/statue... with numbers. Use numbers to calculate the coordinates you already have inside the Library. Use the info on the starting coordinates to give a clue where the cache is. There's always room is the coordinates for the traditional cleared.

 

 

But.. what's the point of this? I just wanted to publish a nice and easy cache and now it's sound like a the biggest mission to complete all difficult and hard logical to understand rules...

Edited by Matekarlo

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21 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

How it's easy?

Even easier now! You can do this. Don't give up. 😁

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Just now, Matekarlo said:

But.. what's the point of this?

The point is that your inside cache does not use coordinates which is required of the game. We're trying to help you so you can meet the guidelines of using coordinates and still keep your cache inside the Library. I know you're frustrated but this really is an easy fix! Let us help you.  

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4 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

Also traditional.. like this - GC70NKH

 

Happy for him, but how....

Mistakes happen. The Help Center is clear on the rules for indoor geocaches. 

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6 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

The point is that your inside cache does not use coordinates which is required of the game. We're trying to help you so you can meet the guidelines of using coordinates and still keep your cache inside the Library. I know you're frustrated but this really is an easy fix! Let us help you.  

I still don't understrand how my cache coords is wrong. Coors are coords. ok, it's inside, but people will read hint, they will understand..

 

But nvm, how i can fix it? Sorry for so many questions, but, my english is not very good and honestly - i never made a multi cache.....

Edited by Matekarlo

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8 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I still don't understrand how my cache coords is wrong. Coors are coords. ok, it's inside, but people will read hint, they will understand..

 

But nvm, how i can fix it? Sorry for so many questions, but, my english is not very good and honestly - i never made a multi cache.....

Your English is great.

Change the cache to a multi cache with the posted coordinates to a physical container outside or a plaque or sign. If it's a physical container you can have instructions inside to how to find the geocache inside the Library. Is there a place you can hide a small container that will provide this information? 

In my opinion this is the easiest fix for you if you want the final container to be inside. 

Inside the physical container that is outside the library you can say something like this: "To find the geocache go to the reference section and look for this book FLS100".

Edited by Max and 99

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4 hours ago, Matekarlo said:

The library staff and the director know about the geo-treasure, agree, do not object and even want to have it.

You may want to work with them on a location for an outdoor stage. This should be easy. 

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9 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Your English is great.

Change the cache to a multi cache with the posted coordinates to a physical container outside or a plaque or sign. If it's a physical container you can have instructions inside to how to find the geocache inside the Library. Is there a place you can hide a small container that will provide this information? 

In my opinion this is the easiest fix for you. 

Inside the physical container you can say something like this: "To find the geocache go to the reference section and look for this book FLS100".

In my opinion no option for multi treasure with a physical container ... too little space to place it somewhere .. maybe it's easier to do a mystery with the question and then people get inside coordinates. But seriously. Where is the logic here. Simple treasure with specific cootinates is not good, and multi/mystery are all ok. Strange, strange.. But I quess i have no choice

Edited by Matekarlo

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4 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

You may want to work with them on a location for an outdoor stage. This should be easy. 

Nope. They agree, but i won't ask him for outdoor spot. That would be too much.

Edited by Matekarlo

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38 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I still don't understrand how my cache coords is wrong. Coors are coords.

Honestly, I sympathize with this view. I've found outdoor caches in areas with no GPS reception. But the surrounding areas had GPS reception, so it was perfectly possible to use accurate GPS coordinates to find the cache anyway. I think it's just as possible to use accurate GPS coordinates in manmade structures like buildings as it is in natural areas like caves or hollow redwood trees.

 

But Groundspeak's interpretation is that buildings are special, and that you can't use accurate GPS coordinates to find an indoor location.

 

38 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

ok, it's inside, but people will read hint, they will understand..

I don't think this helps your case. If you tell someone that the cache is at a certain library, and describe how to find the cache in that library without using GPS at all, then you've undermined your argument that your cache uses accurate GPS coordinates.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

Nope. They agree, but i won't ask him for outdoor spot. That would be too much.

Why would it be too much? It doesn't have to be much. It could be a tag or a magnet or a micro-size container with a slip of laminated paper. It just has to have the call number of the "book" or whatever other information you've put in your hint. A volunteer reviewer (Keystone) even provided information about where you could put the outdoor stage without conflicting with any other caches:

50 minutes ago, Keystone said:

I see some traditional caches to the south and east of the library that would block an outdoors physical stage in that direction.  But, you have quite a bit of room to the north and west of the library to work with.  Tip:  there are no hidden waypoints for other mystery or multi-caches within .5 miles of the library.

 

Edited by niraD

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5 minutes ago, niraD said:

I don't think this helps your case. If you tell someone that the cache is at a certain library, and describe how to find the cache in that library without using GPS at all, then you've undermined your argument that your cache uses accurate GPS coordinates.

 

Honestly - coords are copletly fine, hint is more than clever. In my opinion i having problems for nothing.. I think i will try to make a mistery, but anyway. this cache is in the city, GPS signal are strong enough. This is first time I having problems like this. And I can't understand how they allow to hide caches in bunkers and other buldings witch for sure, don't have good GPS signal...

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2 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

And I can't understand how they allow to hide caches in bunkers and other buldings witch for sure, don't have good GPS signal...

 

Prior caches won't constitute any precedent to future publishings... I hope it's not the first time you read this.

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1 minute ago, RuideAlmeida said:

 

Prior caches won't constitute any precedent to future publishings... I hope it's not the first time you read this.

 

I'll just try to make a mystery cache with two questions for people to get coords.. I see no chanches for multi out here

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11 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I see no chanches for multi out here

 

Yes. We call them Offset Caches (Multi).

 

For example: "This is a simple offset cache. The posted coordinates will bring you to X location. There you will find Y. Use the information on Y to determine the actual location of the cache."

Edited by RuideAlmeida
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7 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I see no chanches for multi out here

Didn't you see Keystone's earlier post?

 

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

I see some traditional caches to the south and east of the library that would block an outdoors physical stage in that direction.  But, you have quite a bit of room to the north and west of the library to work with.  Tip:  there are no hidden waypoints for other mystery or multi-caches within .5 miles of the library.

 

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27 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

 

I'll just try to make a mystery cache with two questions for people to get coords.. I see no chanches for multi out here

 

The answers to those questions must be found at a location requiring meaningful GPS use, such as taking the geocacher to an outdoors information sign or plaque.  This is closer to a Multi-cache in design, since a visit to the given coordinates is needed.  The questions cannot be of the type that the geocacher must research and answer at home / on the internet.

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34 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I see no chanches for multi out here

I feel this is because you aren't listening to us. It seems so easy to me, to create a question from a sign (no physical container) that brings you to the inside cache. Easy!

 

If you post a photo of a sign outside the library, we can help you with ideas.

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4 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Maybe about a boring subject most people would not be interested in.

 

Geocaching?  :D

 

I once found a very popular library cache that required the finder to first get clues in the library, then follow the coordinates outside (using GPS) to a container that told you where in the library it was.  It did actually require interaction with the staff though.

 

I have a library cache that starts with a puzzle outside that, decoded, tells you where to look inside the library.  I approached the library staff about this idea, thinking I would be hiding a hollowed out book, and they, as muggles, suggested I hide it in a card catalog drawer.  I love when muggles come up with better ideas than geocachers!  (I don't mind the spoiler because none of you will probably look for it, and it's been in a couple of my own videos).

 

Edited by GeoElmo6000
Misspellings

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2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I feel this is because you aren't listening to us. It seems so easy to me, to create a question from a sign (no physical container) that brings you to the inside cache. Easy!

 

If you post a photo of a sign outside the library, we can help you with ideas.

 

I already sent for rewiew a mystery catche with two questions made in there - https://www.certitudes.org. Now this will be fine or no? Questions leads to library with clever hint

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Since the questions can be answered by reading the cache description, this does not add the required GPS usage.  Find questions that can only be answered by visiting a location that can be found by someone using GPS.

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4 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Since the questions can be answered by reading the cache description, this does not add the required GPS usage.  Find questions that can only be answered by visiting a location that can be found by someone using GPS.

 

Honestly? My english is trash, I don't understand what exactly I need to do. Meby it's time to me for give up and stop wasting all of you time.

 

Really sad, then you put so much time on cache and just getting refused with some strange (for me, just for me) rules.. Well, welcome to cache hiding problems, Monte.

Edited by Matekarlo

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19 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

suggested I hide it in a card catalog drawer.

Your library still has a card catalog drawer?  When a local went to solve my library cache, she was shocked to walk in and see NO card catalogs any more. Haha. 

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1 minute ago, Matekarlo said:

 

Honestly? My english is trash, I don't understand what exactly I need to do. Meby it's time to me for give up and stop wasting all of you time

Would you like us to help you out? We'd be happy to. Just answer the questions:

1. Is there a plaque outside the library? A sign? Can you show us a photo, or tell us what it says?

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2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Would you like us to help you out? We'd be happy to. Just answer the questions:

1. Is there a plaque outside the library? A sign? Can you show us a photo, or tell us what it says?

 

54.884240, 23.894767 put it on google maps... better this, than a foto

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OK, as I wrote before:

Take coordinates from the nearby Pizza Express restaurant. Make a formula for the library coordinates with the telephone number underneath the green letters. You can then say cachers need to enter at those coordinates and find XYZ (your hint for the cache). Problem solved.

Don't mention the name of the pizza restaurant in the listing (commercial!).

 

 

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