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psychpineapple

Unnecessary NA

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Hey fellow geocachers!

Quick question to ask. I have a cache that a new cacher (no finds) logged for a NA. In the note, it said that they looked for it with a previous cacher and it wasn't there. It is a fairly popular cache which has been found at least once a month. The thing is, it was found in the month of October. I don't know how to proceed. Do I message that person and tell them not to log a NA but log a DNF? I am (and was actually planning on before the NA) to check on my cache this month to do general maintenance, so I am going to check it this week. Do I right a note on the page saying that I am going to check on it? So far. the reviewer has not made a note. I know that my cache is not in danger of being archived, but I kind of don't want others to see it since a lot of new cachers look for it because it is in a popular park in my city. Please let me know :) Thanks

 

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5 minutes ago, psychpineapple said:

Do I message that person and tell them not to log a NA but log a DNF?

Yes, in my opinion.

I have seen several of these examples in my area. Very new geocachers can't find a cache so they log a NA. One of the caches I could see from across the parking lot. I do recommend letting them know that if they don't find a cache to log a dnf. You were going to check on it anyway, so if it was my cache I would check on it and log an owner maintenance and the reviewer will see that everything's fine! 

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If they really were with a previous finder who confirmed it wasn't there, then NM would have been the more appropriate log for them to use, along with a DNF of course, unless there's already an outstanding NM in which case NA would be appropriate. You could just post a note saying you're going to check on it soon, but I've seen that done here and the reviewer went ahead and disabled the cache anyway.

 

Had they logged an NM, the Help Centre says this is how you should respond so I guess the same is true for an NA:

 

Quote

If you don't remove the "Needs maintenance" attribute it will affect the Health Score of your cache. Follow these steps to remove the "Needs maintenance" attribute:

  1. Temporarily disable your cache if maintenance will take some time.
  2. Maintain your cache. Find out how!
  3. Select Log geocache on your cache page.
  4. Select Owner maintenance as the log type.
  5. If you disabled your cache, enable it.

Thank you for being a responsible cache owner!

 

 

The important thing seems to be disabling the cache if you can't get to it to check within a reasonably short time, say a few days. Then make sure to log an OM (and re-enable it) once you've verified everything's good. The OM log is important to remove all the negative vibes the NA has set off.

Edited by barefootjeff

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25 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

If they really were with a previous finder who confirmed it wasn't there, then NM would have been the more appropriate log for them to use, along with a DNF of course,

I'm in agreement on this.

I've seen several newbies who skip right over NM and go by straight to NA when they can't find a cache. There's nothing wrong with the NM in this case. But I do think a polite email to let her know a dnf is the appropriate log is in order. 

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A friend's cache received a NA. There had been no DNFs or NM. We checked and the cache was still there in full sight. However by then the NA had mysteriously been changed to a DNF; although the words, "It’s been stolen " were still the same. Our guess is that the reviewer might have done that. Reviewers can recognise ridiculous things like this.  There had been a find two days before.

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Here, a reviewer would ignore a NA log if it doesn't follow at least 28 days after a NM log in this situation. I'd post a note saying that I'll be checking it routinely in a few weeks time....

 

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2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

If they really were with a previous finder who confirmed it wasn't there, then NM would have been the more appropriate log for them to use, along with a DNF of course...

 

This is the safest I guess...

We had a NM from a newb who visited the area of a cache once,  saying they went with an "experienced cacher" who found it once, who also said it's no longer there.

Well neither used the coordinates, updated years  after that "experienced cacher" found it, or they would have realized it was moved.  :D

 - Just having someone show you where caches are isn't caching to me...

 

Edited by cerberus1

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24 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

- Just having someone show you where caches are isn't caching to me...

 

I've tagged along on some group outings where I'd already found some (or even all) of the caches being visited. On the last one, held in May to celebrate the end of the lockdown here, I was the CO of two of the four caches we visited but just stood back out of the way while the others made the finds. The other two I'd found early in my caching career but couldn't recall precisely where they were hidden so it was a bit of fun searching again.

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Thanks for the advice guys! Little update, I sent a message to the person about logging a dnf but I didn't get a response. But... now the NA is a DNF. I don't know if the reviewer changed it because there is no note, or if the new cacher changed it. Went and checked on it today, it was there! And it was even less hidden than when I placed it! :) Added a fresh log book and all done :)

Edited by psychpineapple
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It's not within a Reviewer's jurisdiction to go and edit someone's log type, so my best guess is that the newbie got your message and changed their log, but was too embarrassed to reply to you.

 

Changing a "Needs Archived" to a "DNF" log (or just deleting the NA log) does not remove the notification provided to the local Community Volunteer Reviewer.  But, it does improve the Cache Health Score, as did your recent Owner Maintenance Log.

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On a slightly more serious note ... I am sick and tired of what I call "entitled want a participation ribbon twits" and their whining because their search was either failed or flawed.

 

Even more frustrating is how their inappropriate "call outs" seem to skew the algorithm resulting in a call out of  the "Cache Health Police" .

 

Nothing finer than getting an undeserved "Nasty Gram" from the "Cache Health Police" ....... GRRRRRRRRR

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Have you read my prior posts to this thread, about how such cases are handled by the "Cache Police?"  I would like to believe that I exercise a proper amount of discretion, and that my fellow "Cache Police" do the same.

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On 10/21/2020 at 9:33 PM, Keystone said:

Have you read my prior posts to this thread, about how such cases are handled by the "Cache Police?"  I would like to believe that I exercise a proper amount of discretion, and that my fellow "Cache Police" do the same.

Indeed I am familiar with your posts and I do appreciate your stance on this issue.  Further, I also appreciate all that you do for the sport / activity.

 

Can we rest assured that the missives from the algorithm are filtered post system generation prior to their arrival in a CO's inbox?

 

Obviously I have a bias against the missives which I have received from HAL 9001. >( Reference the 1968 film 2001 Space Odyssey for you youngsters out there.)<

 

 

 

 

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The automatically generated emails are called "Cache Health Score Notifications."  This exchange proves the value of using precise terminology rather than snarky nicknames.  When you said "cache police," I assumed you meant people, such as myself.

 

While the CHS Notifications are not filtered before they are sent, no cache is disabled or archived based on a CHS Notification without involvement from a Community Volunteer Reviewer.

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On 10/20/2020 at 9:04 PM, psychpineapple said:

Hey fellow geocachers!

Quick question to ask. I have a cache that a new cacher (no finds) logged for a NA. In the note, it said that they looked for it with a previous cacher and it wasn't there. It is a fairly popular cache which has been found at least once a month. The thing is, it was found in the month of October. I don't know how to proceed. Do I message that person and tell them not to log a NA but log a DNF? I am (and was actually planning on before the NA) to check on my cache this month to do general maintenance, so I am going to check it this week. Do I right a note on the page saying that I am going to check on it? So far. the reviewer has not made a note. I know that my cache is not in danger of being archived, but I kind of don't want others to see it since a lot of new cachers look for it because it is in a popular park in my city. Please let me know :) Thanks

 

 

If a previous finder looked with a new cacher and couldn't find your cache, I'd take notice and go look.  I would also ask them not to log an NA on a cache.  IMO in general a NM log should precede a NA log, and some time should be gives between the NM and the NA.  If the CO doesn't address the NM after either some time or some DNFs, then an NA is warranted.  Obviously there are caveats, like if there was an immediate need to remove the cache (property owner doesn't want it there, etc.).

 

I recently logged an NA on a multicache in which the last unassisted find was four years ago; two years ago there were finds but the finders needed to message the CO for help with a missing stage that subsequently wasn't fixed.  A year ago a NM was posted for a missing stage 1, but the CO didn't respond nor has the CO logged into the site in years.  So I logged an NA.  After some time, a reviewer posted a Temporary Disable, and after more time with no response, archived the cache.

 

As far as Cache Health Scores, I don't know why forumites here worry about it so much.  I've never heard it discussed anywhere but here, not on social media nor events or between geo-talk with other geocachers.  If (gasp!) I got a CHS notification, I'd just address it.  No big deal.  I recently had a DNF on a cache that I wouldn't expect to be muggled, but guess what, it was!  So I replaced it and logged an OM log.

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2 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

As far as Cache Health Scores, I don't know why forumites here worry about it so much.  I've never heard it discussed anywhere but here, not on social media nor events or between geo-talk with other geocachers.  If (gasp!) I got a CHS notification, I'd just address it.  No big deal.  I recently had a DNF on a cache that I wouldn't expect to be muggled, but guess what, it was!  So I replaced it and logged an OM log.

 

It's no big deal if the cache is one the CO can easily go and check on but that's not always the case and those harder-to-access ones also happen to be the ones most likely to get DNFs for reasons that have nothing to do with the state of the cache. The notification I got (on a 2/5 multi 6 weeks after publication following 1 find and 1 DNF) requires a 3km return kayak paddle to reach, best done close to high tide and with light winds, but the notification arrived in the middle of the summer school holidays when the normally quiet waterway was full of water skiers and jet skis. No big deal? I suppose I could have disabled the cache until the end of the holidays, but the DNFer asked me not to do that as she wanted to have another crack at it which ultimately turned out to be successful. I try to do the right thing as a CO, but in this instance there didn't seem to be any right thing as none of the options the email gave (check it immediately and log an OM, disable it until you can or archive it) were palatable, especially as it turned out there was nothing wrong with the cache.

 

In the almost 4 years since then, that cache has had 4 more finds and thankfully no more DNFs, but given that the last find was a year and a half ago, another DNF now would probably set it off again and if it did, I'd probably take the easy way out and just archive the cache, retrieving the container when the tides, winds and water-muggles made it convenient and safe to do so.

 

The CHS might work well for urban hides and LPCs, but for those really remote caches with limited safe access that don't get enough attempts for the DNF-to-find ratio to be statistically significant, it can be problematic for COs and may well lead to perfectly servicable caches being archived.

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15 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

another DNF now would probably set it off again and if it did, I'd probably take the easy way out and just archive the cache,


Given everything you’ve told us about the cache, don’t you think your reviewer would appreciate the situation?

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3 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

As far as Cache Health Scores, I don't know why forumites here worry about it so much. 

I've never heard it discussed anywhere but here, not on social media nor events or between geo-talk with other geocachers.

 

Maybe it's different in your circles, but we have a lot of friends in your state.  Many of our FTFs were there.

We discuss a lot of "back in the day..." cache stuff, issues with new phone cachers,  and yes, the CHS does come up once in a while.     :)

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4 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:


Given everything you’ve told us about the cache, don’t you think your reviewer would appreciate the situation?

 

For me, doing the right thing means taking whatever action is needed to prevent a reviewer becoming involved (if it gets to that point then I've probably failed as a diligent CO, both in my eyes and those of the reviewer), but if a reviewer did take action it would likely be the standard boilerplate TD with a requirement to post updates every 28 days or face archival without further notice.

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6 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

For me, doing the right thing means taking whatever action is needed to prevent a reviewer becoming involved (if it gets to that point then I've probably failed as a diligent CO, both in my eyes and those of the reviewer), but if a reviewer did take action it would likely be the standard boilerplate TD with a requirement to post updates every 28 days or face archival without further notice.


I just don’t see that.  If I were your reviewer (easy to say when there’s no chance!), and you put a note on the cache page explaining exactly what you told us above, I’d not be looking to archive your cache.

 

I think it’s reasonably easy to spot clearly responsible COs from clearly irresponsible ones.  (Obviously, a fair bit of grey in the middle.)  I’d be using the CHS to help clear out the cr@p that’s been abandoned by irresponsible (or absentee) owners.  Maybe that’s just me...

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

I've probably failed as a diligent CO, ... in my eyes


If you think you’ve failed because of an imperfect computer algorithm and a poorly-worded automated email, there’s no hope for the rest of us! 😉

Edited by IceColdUK
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3 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I just don’t see that.  If I were your reviewer (easy to say when there’s no chance!), and you put a note on the cache page explaining exactly what you told us above, I’d not be looking to archive your cache.

 

There was one just like that I posted about a couple of years back. It's a well-camouflaged D3 traditional that gets its fair share of DNFs (46 from 385 finds). After a handful of DNFs and an NM from mostly newbies, the CO posted a note saying that, given its history, he was quite confident the cache was still there and would check when next in the area, but the reviewer still went ahead fourteen days later and posted the boilerplate TD with the archival threat. When the CO was finally able to check, the cache was fine.

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53 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

There was one just like that I posted about a couple of years back. It's a well-camouflaged D3 traditional that gets its fair share of DNFs (46 from 385 finds). After a handful of DNFs and an NM from mostly newbies, the CO posted a note saying that, given its history, he was quite confident the cache was still there and would check when next in the area, but the reviewer still went ahead fourteen days later and posted the boilerplate TD with the archival threat. When the CO was finally able to check, the cache was fine.


Guess I’d make a bad reviewer. 😉

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How did this go from a newbie posting an unnecessary NA to being about the CHS? :lostsignal:

(*Hint hint*)

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On 10/22/2020 at 12:03 AM, humboldt flier said:

Hunt them down and slap them into 2021 ... that way they can avoid the balance of to 2020 Covid 19 nightmare.   Just Sayin

 

 

LOL Love this! 

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On 10/20/2020 at 9:04 PM, psychpineapple said:

Hey fellow geocachers!

Quick question to ask. I have a cache that a new cacher (no finds) logged for a NA. In the note, it said that they looked for it with a previous cacher and it wasn't there. It is a fairly popular cache which has been found at least once a month. The thing is, it was found in the month of October. I don't know how to proceed. Do I message that person and tell them not to log a NA but log a DNF? I am (and was actually planning on before the NA) to check on my cache this month to do general maintenance, so I am going to check it this week. Do I right a note on the page saying that I am going to check on it? So far. the reviewer has not made a note. I know that my cache is not in danger of being archived, but I kind of don't want others to see it since a lot of new cachers look for it because it is in a popular park in my city. Please let me know :) Thanks

 

 

 

In my opinion, with no finds, it sounds like someone did it purposely. I would write a note saying the "cache is fine and all is well. The cacher is new to the geocaching". Or just delete the log. 

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1 hour ago, HunterandSamuel said:

 

 

Or just delete the log. 

I don't think that deletes it in the system. The reviewer can still see it.

One CO was deleting logs they didn't like (mine, as well as from other people), but the reviewer still got involved. The cache was archived.

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11 hours ago, Keystone said:

The automatically generated emails are called "Cache Health Score Notifications."  This exchange proves the value of using precise terminology rather than snarky nicknames.  When you said "cache police," I assumed you meant people, such as myself.

 

While the CHS Notifications are not filtered before they are sent, no cache is disabled or archived based on a CHS Notification without involvement from a Community Volunteer Reviewer.

  

Your comments have eased a lot of angst.

 

Was never throwing dirt on a reviewer.   Definitely was throwing dirt on HAL

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On 10/25/2020 at 5:04 PM, barefootjeff said:
On 10/25/2020 at 1:21 PM, GeoElmo6000 said:

As far as Cache Health Scores, I don't know why forumites here worry about it so much.  I've never heard it discussed anywhere but here, not on social media nor events or between geo-talk with other geocachers.  If (gasp!) I got a CHS notification, I'd just address it.  No big deal.  I recently had a DNF on a cache that I wouldn't expect to be muggled, but guess what, it was!  So I replaced it and logged an OM log.

 

It's no big deal if the cache is one the CO can easily go and check on

 

Going to check on a cache after a CHS notification may be the 'best' response, but not the only response. As mentioned, posting a (reasonable) Note as to why say a string of DNFs is to be expected means that if a reviewer decides to look it's another piece of 'data' they can take into consideration before deciding whether to take action.  Now if you want to stop the system from sending notifications, that might be different. I mentioned in another thread one option is to have someone find it and log their Found It.  Of course posting an OM without it being a legitimate checkup could be problematic depending on your reviewer. But what if the issue is a technical one and not a physical one? Posting an OM saying you've verified (eg) the puzzle is correct due to recent DNFs saying they think it's broken - that's a legit OM as well.

 

There are so many nuances in this process which is why the reviewer check is absolutely key before any action is taken, let alone automatic action by the system. The real question is whether a CO can "live" with the automated system sending a CHS email nudge without posting an OM log (in whatever legitimate capacity it might take, as interpreted by a reviewer).

 

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9 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

But what if the issue is a technical one and not a physical one? Posting an OM saying you've verified (eg) the puzzle is correct due to recent DNFs saying they think it's broken - that's a legit OM as well.

 

Yep, I'm sure an armchair OM is fine if it's reporting an armchair fix like a broken link on the cache page.

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I think it's important to understand the 'spirit' of the guideline, not necessarily the letter of it - and that's effectively what the humanness of the reviewers is there for :)

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5 hours ago, SUV2003 said:

What does NA stand for? I've never seen that as an option to log a cache.

 

I don't know why that deserves a surprise emoji.

This is what the app has done for geocaching. Many newbies, through no real fault of their own, never see or learn about NA or NM. It simply doesn't come up as a logging option.  All they see is Found, DNF, or Write note.

I'm actually surprised the cacher the OP referenced found the NA to use.

Edited by RocTheCacheBox

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1 hour ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

This is what the app has done for geocaching. Many newbies, through no real fault of their own, never see or learn about NA or NM. It simply doesn't come up as a logging option.  All they see is Found, DNF, or Write note.

This forum really needs a "Sad" reaction.

:sad:

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1 hour ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

This is what the app has done for geocaching. Many newbies, through no real fault of their own, never see or learn about NA or NM. It simply doesn't come up as a logging option.  All they see is Found, DNF, or Write note.

And the AL app is the next iteration, they're all gone! Just key in the info off the sign and you're done....

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8 minutes ago, lee737 said:

And the AL app is the next iteration, they're all gone! Just key in the info off the sign and you're done....

 

Yeah, just have to hope the sign never gets removed or changed. How will the CO find out about it if that happens?

Edited by barefootjeff

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4 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Yeah, just have to hope the sign never gets removed or changed. How will the CO find out about it if that happens?

I was thinking that the other day actually..... and when the CO goes inactive, can the reviewers 'archive' ALs?

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4 minutes ago, lee737 said:

I was thinking that the other day actually..... and when the CO goes inactive, can the reviewers 'archive' ALs?

 

There's a "Report this Adventure" button in the app, I guess tapping that will bring it to someone's attention. Not game to experiment though!

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3 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

There's a "Report this Adventure" button in the app, I guess tapping that will bring it to someone's attention. Not game to experiment though!

It gives the option to report a violation on the basis of Location, Content, Fee, Law enforcement/Land Manager or Other.   States"Reported Adventures are reviewed by our staff to determine whether they violate our Terms of use or the Adventure Lab Guidelines". 

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11 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

It gives the option to report a violation on the basis of Location, Content, Fee, Law enforcement/Land Manager or Other.   States"Reported Adventures are reviewed by our staff to determine whether they violate our Terms of use or the Adventure Lab Guidelines". 

 

Hmm, that sounds a bit over the top for reporting a missing sign. I guess you'd just have to message or email the owner and hope they respond, but that won't do anything to alert other searchers in the way an NM log would.

 

On my shipwreck AL, one of the answers will change over time as more of the remains rust away. I'll go and check on it occasionally but I don't have a good handle on how fast that will happen, only that the answer would have been different seven years ago when I first visited the site. If it changes while I'm not looking, I'll just have to hope that someone mentions it.

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21 hours ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

This is what the app has done for geocaching. Many newbies, through no real fault of their own, never see or learn about NA or NM. It simply doesn't come up as a logging option.  All they see is Found, DNF, or Write note.

I'm actually surprised the cacher the OP referenced found the NA to use.

20 hours ago, niraD said:

This forum really needs a "Sad" reaction.

:sad:

 

Sept. 2003 is a newbie ?

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22 hours ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

I don't know why that deserves a surprise emoji.

This is what the app has done for geocaching. Many newbies, through no real fault of their own, never see or learn about NA or NM.

It simply doesn't come up as a logging option.  All they see is Found, DNF, or Write note.

 

No offense to SUV (probably just forgot), and I did respond, but I'm kinda surprised too.

RocTheCacheBox, do you know of a Geocaching app that came out in 2003 ?    Thanks.  :)

The other 2/3rds had an app (Trimble) for blackberry, and didn't see it available until 2005. 

It didn't function anything like our current apps...

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18 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Sept. 2003 is a newbie ?

 

OOOOPPPPPS. Nope, not a newbie, No app back then either. I didn't get all my facts before that post! 

 

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