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Stop this annoying LAB project


RedHunters
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10 minutes ago, Ragnemalm said:

 

I strongly agree, and add one more thing:

  • Adventure labs water down the value of lab caches as a mega event feature. Suddenly your lab cache count skyrockets by just going to a place. Will this make the interest in lab caches drop? Maybe we should stop making lab caches and just turn them into "mega activities"?

I have been offered an AL like everybody else, but I can't figure out how to make a good one. So, go to a nice place and count windows...? It doesn't sound interesting but more like a quick log immediately forgotten, easy come, easy go. No challenge, no interesting problem to solve, since the problems you can make AFAIK are only very trivial ones. With a Wherigo, I have some options to program it in custom ways that I can't see here.

 

Yes, it pretty much is a Wherigo where you get half a dozen logs for a single Wherigo.

 

 

I have an Adventure cache too. If I make it, it will have one WP only, so only one find.

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When I read the thread above it's mainly about the number of points you get. There were also a discussion about numbers some time ago and one of the comments says it all:

https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/358470-how-many-caches-can-you-find-in-one-day/&do=findComment&comment=5854006

You don’t like Adventure Lab, fine, ignore it,it's just one click for you, but why do you want to ruin someone else’s fun?

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31 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

When I read the thread above it's mainly about the number of points you get. There were also a discussion about numbers some time ago and one of the comments says it all:

https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/358470-how-many-caches-can-you-find-in-one-day/&do=findComment&comment=5854006

You don’t like Adventure Lab, fine, ignore it,it's just one click for you, but why do you want to ruin someone else’s fun?

 

If it's for the "fun" then points shouldn't matter to you. So if others say each Adventure lab cache should only get one point, it won't be any less fun for you, so why should you worry about people's concern about Adventure labs getting too many points. (But I suspect it's for the points that is the important bit for you, not the fun.)

Yes, it does seen it is the number of points that Adventure Lab caches get compared to other caches that it the problem; not in Adventure caches per se.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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675049719_Dreilndereck.thumb.jpg.587d18d1e1621ccf3e194ad6e3245855.jpg

 

 

I translate this: It's a tour over 20 Miles with a bicycle, here are the Lab locations:

 

 

441125613_Lablocation.thumb.jpg.dad2633d6b73b38d84f8aa769491a4af.jpg

 

 

Do you really think it's about numbers?  Picking up 5 traditional in the neighborhood is much easier.

Many above are complaining about Adventure Lab, but it is not the system, it's about Adventure owners who are creating those "easy", "boaring" "stupid" location.  There are many very good Adventure and you would be surprised how much fun it is.

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

675049719_Dreilndereck.thumb.jpg.587d18d1e1621ccf3e194ad6e3245855.jpg

 

 

I translate this: It's a tour over 20 Miles with a bicycle, here are the Lab locations:

 

 

441125613_Lablocation.thumb.jpg.dad2633d6b73b38d84f8aa769491a4af.jpg

 

 

Do you really think it's about numbers?  Picking up 5 traditional in the neighborhood is much easier.

Many above are complaining about Adventure Lab, but it is not the system, it's about Adventure owners who are creating those "easy", "boaring" "stupid" location.  There are many very good Adventure and you would be surprised how much fun it is.

 

 

 

An Adventure lab should not be compared to a traditional cache, but a multicache, which only gets one point. I drove 12,000kms to do a multi. One point.

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1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

675049719_Dreilndereck.thumb.jpg.587d18d1e1621ccf3e194ad6e3245855.jpg

 

 

I translate this: It's a tour over 20 Miles with a bicycle, here are the Lab locations:

 

 

441125613_Lablocation.thumb.jpg.dad2633d6b73b38d84f8aa769491a4af.jpg

 

 

Do you really think it's about numbers?  Picking up 5 traditional in the neighborhood is much easier.

Many above are complaining about Adventure Lab, but it is not the system, it's about Adventure owners who are creating those "easy", "boaring" "stupid" location.  There are many very good Adventure and you would be surprised how much fun it is.

 

Ok, this is a "non-standard" AL. But what immediately comes to my mind is: Wouldn't this tour be exactly the same "fun" when it were a conventional multi? Or a series of traditionals?

 

To me, an important sign of a "good" AL is that the idea would have been significantly more difficult to implement with proper geocaches. For e.g. as a multi with virtual waypoints instead of the typical "5 locations + bonus cache" AL. There are very few ALs I have played, which fulfill this criterion.

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37 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I drove 12,000kms to do a multi.

:drama: super, tell me more...

 

16 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

Ok, this is a "non-standard" AL. But what immediately comes to my mind is: Wouldn't this tour be exactly the same "fun" when it were a conventional multi? Or a series of traditionals?

 

Sure, there could be 5 traditionals to find.  Oh no, that's not good, you would earn 5 points, so visit all 5 traditional but log only one.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mausebiber said:
22 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

Ok, this is a "non-standard" AL. But what immediately comes to my mind is: Wouldn't this tour be exactly the same "fun" when it were a conventional multi? Or a series of traditionals?

 

Sure, there could be 5 traditionals to find.  Oh no, that's not good, you would earn 5 points, so visit all 5 traditional but log only one.

Bad discussion style ("straw man argument"). Nowhere in my posting did I say that "getting 5 points for the AL" is a problem.

 

My question was, if there is anything which makes the AL more "fun to do" than one or more conventional geocache(s) using the same locations.

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12 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

Interesting point, do you have some samples?

 

Indoor locations was supposed to be one of the differentiators, but of course that kinda failed this year. The first AL in Finland, introducing the new Helsinki city library, was quite interesting in that regard.
 

i thought using the video links to convey required information would also be a key feature but turns out no one wants to do video. And I guess a mystery  with a multi stage geochecker to control the release of information would be even better for that type of experience (slight loss of immersion due to not being able to stay in a single app, but a mystery would allow you to use physical waypoints, no limit to 5 waypoints, and no need to reveal all waypoints at start).

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9 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:
33 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

To me, an important sign of a "good" AL is that the idea would have been significantly more difficult to implement with proper geocaches

Interesting point, do you have some samples?

"Sauerei in der Brauerei" in Aying near Munich.

 

It had a story about a crime (sort-of ;) ) at a brewery. Each journal entry wasn't a plain text, but a short video with a "Statement from a wtiness", and a set of coordinates. One of the witnesses had to identified as a liar (because their statement included a logical error of some kind), and the liar's coordinates were the starting point for the bonus cache. This workflow (answer a question at a stage, and get a video link only if the answer is correct) is hard to implement as a multi without the help of a specialized website (which is usually outside the capabilities of a "typical" CO). SO I thought it was a very clever way to use the features the Lab Adventure App is offering.

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7 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Both those sound much better than, 'what is the third word on the plaque in front of you'

 

Agree, the system can provide interesting Adventures if the OWNER is willing and capable to accomplish accordingly

 

mustakorppi & baer2006, thanks for the nice samples

 

Goldenwattle, not sure when I will be able to visit Australia again, but I'm always interested in those kind of challenges.

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9 minutes ago, mustakorppi said:

Indoor locations was supposed to be one of the differentiators, but of course that kinda failed this year. The first AL in Finland, introducing the new Helsinki city library, was quite interesting in that regard.

I was among the very first cachers, which were drawn to create a "new-style AL" in early 2019. I tried to come up with an idea, which used at least one aspect not usually found in normal multi-caches, and selected the "indoor" option. My locations are in a free-of-charge permanent astronomy/astrophysics exhibition. Worked quite well for almost a year, until COVID came and the exhibition was closed (currently re-opened, with the usual restrictions).

 

But to be quite honest: With moderate effort, I could have realized my cache just as well as a conventional multi with a final cache outside the exhibition. And I wouldn't have had to cope with the AL drawbacks, like the very limited stage descriptions (only 1024 characters of text, no pictures).

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32 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

I'm always interested in those kind of challenges.

This is the longest multicache I have done: GC63GEW.  Canberra to Darwin, but the cache is back in Canberra, so it's necessary to return. Hence the long distance. Also it wasn't a direct route, as it first took me south to Victoria. Some of that distance was a side trip to just over the border to WA (Western Australia), so as to get another state. That would have added some distance, but most of the mentioned 12,000kms was Canberra to Darwin, via Victoria, return. The 17 stage multi was great fun, following windmills across the country. The final walk was a tiring, bush-bash through thick undergrowth.

I have also done other long distance caches by the same CO, all following windmills, from Canberra to Melbourne, Melbourne to Canberra. Both directions to Adelaide, and similarly (taking the car ferry) to Hobart, both directions. Also Canberra to Sydney. I am half way to Perth on another, half way to Brisbane on yet another, and almost back to Canberra for the return cache from Darwin. When I returned from Darwin I drove another route back to Canberra, so didn't get to complete that one. I had organised a trip to finish that, with my mother as a passenger, but she got seriously sick and so I haven't been able to go yet, or anywhere away at present. Caching for me is at present restricted to day trips at most.

I stayed in motels in the cooler south, but when it became warmer I camped in my car. I put a single mattress in the back, so with bedding, I am comfortable. No need to worry about pre-booking accommodation then.

 

Photographs: Me working my way through the bush, and the icy stream I waded across rocks, barefooted - ouch, ouch!

 

ef4431d7-ce38-44c9-b3c4-ff62353b4d02_l.jpg.08167258c3fb0ebf78d65966f2f4f96e.jpg

 

05b561d6-b972-4de4-b45b-0460ef59636c_l.jpg.42837b166a38b0544c8a8fe12b5d7ccf.jpg

 

My Log:

After a long road trip I completed this cache; well actually two road trips. The 'minor' road trip I took some months ago down to Victoria and followed that until I was on the road to Darwin. Then in late June I was going to a convention in Darwin and decided to drive there (lots and lots of caches to find on the way icon_smile_big.gif and THIS cache of course) and so began the 'major' road trip. The windmills varied in size and condition. Now I see windmills everywhere icon_smile_big.gif! Fortunately I have always liked windmills, so that's okay. (My grandfather was a millwright, among other occupations. He fixed them.) The CO was quick to answer any questions I had, so thank you for that.
I followed more than one windmill trail at the same time; which meant keeping track of which series it belonged to and more windmills to visit. Just needed a bit of pre planning. Not the planning needed for setting up these windmill series though. That would have been a lot of work for the CO. I’m guessing we might perhaps be following mtbikeroz’s previous road trip.
The walk to this cache was a bit of exercise, accompanied by Decrypter. First it was shoes and socks off to wade across the stream. Icy water! Then lots of bush bashing through the regrowth and an uphill walk. The cache hide was easily spotted and the cache and contents were in good condition. Then more bush bashing back to the stream, where a drier route back across was discovered. A favourite for the fun. [FTF] who undertook the drive and actually visited the WPs. TFTC mtbikeroz.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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On 10/14/2020 at 3:20 PM, HoochDog said:

One of the forum threads that was linked to earlier was moved by the moderator out of the geocaching forum and into the lab cache forum because it did not belong in the geocaching forum.

If a discussion about lab caches doesn't belong in the geocaching forum, that should be a tell-tale sign that they are a different thing than geocaching.

 

Wherigos and Earthcaches also have their own subforums. Virtuals and Webcams do not have their own subforum.

 

Using your logic about Lab caches, a webcam is a real cache but a Wherigo isn't (even though it involves a physical cache container), and Virtuals are yet Earthcaches aren't even though the latter is really just a very specific and restricted version of the former.

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I created by first lab cache in a local park that has some historical buildings and signage. People have placed micro caches in the park before but they don't last long. It's a high muggle area without good hiding places.

 

I could have made it 5 lab questions, but I only used 3. Three was enough to bring cachers to all areas of the park and make them aware of the signage, historical markers, and buildings.

 

It could have been done as a Wherigo or Multi with the final somewhere else, but I'd much rather have it as a contained Virtual. Since I can't create a Virtual, I created a Lab instead.

 

If I had used the exact same questions for a Virtual or Wherigo, or as part of calculating a Multi final, it would have counted as 1 Find. Instead, the current system makes it count as 3 Finds. I think Labs are wonderful, but I think this is a serious mistake inconsistent with the rest of geocaching. 

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11 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I have an Adventure cache too. If I make it, it will have one WP only, so only one find.

 

I'm considering the same, and think of making it a (non) EarthCache. Basically an idea I had that would open a can of worms for future EarthCaches. Thus an AL could potentially be the right cache type for that.

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Each to their own - I happen to enjoy Lab caches as an integral part of my geocaching experience. If you don't like them, don't do them, but please don't try to spoil things for those who do enjoy them. Perhaps I've been lucky - most of my Adventure Lab series [111 individual sites] have been both interesting and informative.

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On 10/16/2020 at 10:02 AM, Mausebiber said:

When I read the thread above it's mainly about the number of points you get.

 

But that is not the only problem.

  • Lab caches may get less interest (less visible in your count), which can be a drawback for mega events.
  • Lab caches are AFAIK less flexible than Wherigo.

The first point is in my view the biggest problem. Why did ALs have to be logged as the same kind of cache as something entirely different?

 

Since it is basically a less flexible Wherigo, what is the point? The AL stages are just virtual caches with a coordinate check. The difference is too small, while the difference to lab caches is enormous.

Edited by Ragnemalm
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On 10/14/2020 at 11:45 AM, MartyBartfast said:

That's completely irellevant, ALL geocaches can be accessible in easy to reach locations by wheelchair, and normal caches have a Terrain rating to allow people to assess whether they're wheelchair accessible (T1 means yes they are), are Labs rated for terrain? or is there a mechanism whereby someone in a wheelchair can know in advance if all stages of a  Lab are accessible? (I genuinely don't know).

There is no way to indicate T1 for an AL. I have one such and had to note it in the description. This is on my list of desired features.

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The counts of stages adding up as caches found does seem a bit out of order to me 

 

As for too many ALs in an area  and "taking over good cache spots " may be something to be addressed by those in charge. I know of one AL that is superimposed over a trail/series of traditional caches, neither interferes with the other and actually augment each other.

 

The "Window counting "mentioned above can be done other ways, but the reason is to prove you were there. I have an AL along the Lincoln Highway where one cache has a window counting question, about the only thing there at a historical spot that cannot be determined easily from an online picture.

 

I know there are a lot of ALs along the Lincoln Highway, a definite plan is in place to have them across the US. Every AL owner does it differently. One I know has a AL covering a specified distance, by geographic names, but all stages are in one town. Another is similar. Mine is different, I tried to find spots where the Lincoln Highway is highlighted by original mile posts, special signs and such. A few are other historical spots . I end at a logical, to me anyway, geographic spot to separate it from another, actually one of those mentioned. I may have skipped over few  better places, but tried to place them where people could get to them without worrying about traffic or safety. This one spans 19 miles and it is obviously not a walking AL!

 

I did place a bonus cache after a lot of wavering about placing one. No matter where I could place it , there would be backtracking involved. One traditional cache of mine may be too close for the one end, the other end of the AL has a multi just barely over the 528 feet limit, may actually be short of that, only checked by looking at that cache and selected Navigate (on iPhone, did not check with Garmin) , showed .1 miles. I did not need a bonus but figured if they travel l that far I may as well. Tried to make it a bit more than a here I am cache a small red herring visually.

 

A question: I though I saw something on AL about cachers rating an AL experience once completed , more than a log entry at the end. I cannot find that now. Am I correct?i

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On 10/16/2020 at 10:02 AM, Mausebiber said:

You don’t like Adventure Lab, fine, ignore it,it's just one click for you, but why do you want to ruin someone else’s fun?

 

 No it's not that easy. Last week several caches where published in my area: 4x LAB Bonus cache 0x Real caches! Someone is ruin my geocaching fun!

Edited by RedHunters
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3 hours ago, RedHunters said:

 No it's not that easy. Last week several caches where published in my area: 4x LAB Bonus cache 0x Real caches! Someone is ruin my geocaching fun!

The guidelines are silent on this point so I think those respecting non-AL participating players would add an alternate option to their bonus mystery cache to find it without doing the AL. 

 

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1 hour ago, rragan said:

The guidelines are silent on this point so I think those respecting non-AL participating players would add an alternate option to their bonus mystery cache to find it without doing the AL. 

 

 

Which, from my pov at least, would be much appreciated.

 

Unless this is all a wheeze to make them all D5 as you "need an app, and that's, like, specialist equipment". So that people can get lots of D5 caches. (yeah, bored of that approach as well...)

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37 minutes ago, Blue Square Thing said:

 

Which, from my pov at least, would be much appreciated.

 

Unless this is all a wheeze to make them all D5 as you "need an app, and that's, like, specialist equipment". So that people can get lots of D5 caches. (yeah, bored of that approach as well...)

At least around here, at least one provided a mystery to be solved or an AL completed to find the bonus. Some did it old school, most did the AL.

On 10/14/2020 at 11:45 AM, MartyBartfast said:

That's completely irellevant, ALL geocaches can be accessible in easy to reach locations by wheelchair, and normal caches have a Terrain rating to allow people to assess whether they're wheelchair accessible (T1 means yes they are), are Labs rated for terrain? or is there a mechanism whereby someone in a wheelchair can know in advance if all stages of a  Lab are accessible? (I genuinely don't know).

There is no way to indicate T1 for an AL. I have one such and had to note it in the description. This is on my list of desired features.

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On 10/29/2020 at 9:07 PM, Jayeffel said:

As for too many ALs in an area  and "taking over good cache spots " may be something to be addressed by those in charge. I know of one AL that is superimposed over a trail/series of traditional caches, neither interferes with the other and actually augment each other.

 

ALs have plenty of problems, but isn't this one that it does not have? Since the AL stages are virtual, what are they taking over? There certainly are problems with good cache spots being blocked, especially by power trails and mystery finals, but not ALs. Right?

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1 hour ago, RedHunters said:

What would you think if i hide geocaches that can only be found by people that never had a LAB cache find?  This would feel like me having all these LAB bonus around!

 

Not all caches are for everyone you know. Labs are not the best, but they are a part of geocaching and you have to accept it. Adding these caches to ignored may be a solution, but you may also just do the labs and get the bonus? Or you can always cooperate with someone who would take you with him to the bonus cache final.

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21 minutes ago, sernikk said:

 

Not all caches are for everyone you know. Labs are not the best, but they are a part of geocaching and you have to accept it. Adding these caches to ignored may be a solution, but you may also just do the labs and get the bonus? Or you can always cooperate with someone who would take you with him to the bonus cache final.

I would agree, if they only got one smilie, as often harder multicaches get.

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5 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I would agree, if they only got one smilie, as often harder multicaches get.

 

I don't see how the "number of smileys" can influence the ability of getting a bonus cache. If you're so worried about stats just create a separate account, do the labs on this account, and get the bonus on the main. Here you go! A workaround, which I guess some people already use.

 

I also don't like how labs are functioning, but that's reality and you have to accept it. Or ignore it, but then no complaints about not reachable bonuses.

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2 hours ago, RedHunters said:

What would you think if i hide geocaches that can only be found by people that never had a LAB cache find?  This would feel like me having all these LAB bonus around!

 

I get it, but just like the real Lab caches from ago,  I simply skip by them (the other 2/3rds said they messed with "our" stats).  :)

Now that the other 2/3rd's not caching a while, there are literally hundreds of caches just within 25 miles that'll never be visited by me.

If you really can't do that, try deep breath in from the nose, exhale from the mouth...deep breath in from the nose, exhale from the mouth...    ;)

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1 hour ago, sernikk said:

 

If you're so worried about stats just create a separate account, do the labs on this account, and get the bonus on the main.

I see that as telling me to be a different person. I am Goldenwattle on several sites. No, I prefer being me. And if I became a second different person, how does that change the five smilies for doing the work of one smilie that others get?

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4 hours ago, sernikk said:

 

I don't see how the "number of smileys" can influence the ability of getting a bonus cache. If you're so worried about stats just create a separate account, do the labs on this account, and get the bonus on the main. Here you go! A workaround, which I guess some people already use.

 

I also don't like how labs are functioning, but that's reality and you have to accept it. Or ignore it, but then no complaints about not reachable bonuses.

 

You can always delete lab cache finds from your geocaching profile so they don't count in any of your stats. The list still shows the AL headings but not the stages. The finds remain in the app (there's currently no way to delete them from that) and can be restored on your profile at any time. See this page in the Help Centre for more info.

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10 hours ago, RedHunters said:

What would you think if i hide geocaches that can only be found by people that never had a LAB cache find?  This would feel like me having all these LAB bonus around!

I would think exactly what I think when this happens to me all the time. Challenges I can never meet. Puzzles I can never solve. Trees I can never climb. (*shrug*) Just 'cuz I can't paddle a kayak doesn't give me any rights to get snooty when someone else does.

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On 1/12/2021 at 9:44 PM, RedHunters said:

What would you think if i hide geocaches that can only be found by people that never had a LAB cache find?  This would feel like me having all these LAB bonus around!

 

I totally understand your feeling! And hiding them from yourself doesn't help because you know that the ALC s may limit (eliminate?) the interest in Wherigos and lab caches (the original kind), and also make virtuals obsolete shortly after reviving them.

 

ALCs pop up everywhere now. It seems virually everyone gets one.

 

But we can't do anything but watching and see if this changes the hobby in the long run. Are Groundspeak trying to change geocaching into being mainly virtual or is this something temporary?

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On 1/13/2021 at 12:27 AM, cerberus1 said:

I get it, but just like the real Lab caches from ago,  I simply skip by them (the other 2/3rds said they messed with "our" stats).  :)

 

Did you skip real lab caches??? Are we talking about the same kind of lab caches, the temporary, physical ones, often highly advanced and special, on mega events? They are a prime attraction on mega events, but I don't know if they will survive ALCs.

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18 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I'm disappointed in the new Adventure Lab heavy promotion from Groundspeak. 

 

Yeah... Kinda surprised the site's still pushing this cache type,  but we are seeing "bonuses" in notification now, so someone's playing it.   :)

I lost interest in a "leader board" and "points" some time ago,  but keeping these things away from our stats is important to the other 2/3rds too.

 

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