What type should my cache be?

[+Dode222]

This is usually easy, but I'm in a bit of a grey area here. I'm planning on printing something like this and hiding it as a cache. Should it be a puzzle cache? There's no exterior knowledge that needs to be known nor a challenge requirement. Should it be a traditional? Maybe put a warning in the cache description? Something else?

 

 

[+Max and 99]

7 minutes ago, Dode222 said:

This is usually easy, but I'm in a bit of a grey area here. I'm planning on printing something like this and hiding it as a cache. Should it be a puzzle cache? There's no exterior knowledge that needs to be known nor a challenge requirement. Should it be a traditional? Maybe put a warning in the cache description? Something else?

 

 

There's a very recent forum discussion on this question. In my opinion it's a traditional with the field puzzle attribute, assuming the coordinates are for the actual cache hiding spot.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Max and 99

[+niraD]

21 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

28 minutes ago, Dode222 said:

This is usually easy, but I'm in a bit of a grey area here. I'm planning on printing something like this and hiding it as a cache. Should it be a puzzle cache? There's no exterior knowledge that needs to be known nor a challenge requirement. Should it be a traditional? Maybe put a warning in the cache description? Something else?

There's a very recent forum discussion on this question. In my opinion it's a traditional with the field puzzle attribute, assuming the coordinates are for the actual cache hiding spot.

While it can be listed as a traditional with a Field Puzzle attribute (assuming that it is located at the posted coordinates), it might last longer and have fewer frustrated finders if you list it as a mystery/puzzle cache. I've seen mystery/puzzle caches like this located at the posted coordinates, and they tend to be found by people who appreciate a physical puzzle like this. In contrast, caches like this that are listed as traditional caches have to deal with seekers who haven't read the description, and who expect to simply go to the coordinates, find the container, sign the log, and move on to the next cache.

[+Dode222]

4 hours ago, niraD said:

While it can be listed as a traditional with a Field Puzzle attribute (assuming that it is located at the posted coordinates), it might last longer and have fewer frustrated finders if you list it as a mystery/puzzle cache. I've seen mystery/puzzle caches like this located at the posted coordinates, and they tend to be found by people who appreciate a physical puzzle like this. In contrast, caches like this that are listed as traditional caches have to deal with seekers who haven't read the description, and who expect to simply go to the coordinates, find the container, sign the log, and move on to the next cache.

 

This is a good point. Another option is to make this a premium-only cache with the field puzzle attribute and providing more detail in the cache description. It's already a pain to make these caches, I'd prefer to have folks who care enough to take their time and care with it.

[+barefootjeff]

There was one just like that I found a few years back. It was listed as a traditional with the Field Puzzle attribute. Sadly it was archived after it got muggled but that was probably more due to the location than the container.

[+Dode222]

5 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

There was one just like that I found a few years back. It was listed as a traditional with the Field Puzzle attribute. Sadly it was archived after it got muggled but that was probably more due to the location than the container.

Shocker there. I find the more creative and public a cache is, the more likely it'll be muggled. I'm thinking of hiding this down by my local river, a few hundred feet off the trail and setting it to premium only. Then maybe it'll last 6 months before I need to remake it...

[+ecanderson]

In our part of the world, field puzzles located at the posted coordinates are set up as traditional with the field puzzle attribute set.  That's what it's for. 

[+Goldenwattle]

Most I have found are listed as puzzle caches, such as GC3V88J.

After all, they are puzzles.

[+CAVinoGal]

 

5 hours ago, niraD said:

I've seen mystery/puzzle caches like this located at the posted coordinates, and they tend to be found by people who appreciate a physical puzzle like this.

 

Interesting - my son has a few of these containers that he has printed.  He uses them in puzzle caches, so even after you solve the puzzle and get to the final location (and in some cases, it's listed as a puzzle but at the listed coordinates) you have another puzzle to solve - how to open the container!  See https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC86XJ7  for one of his that uses the same type of container as your photo for the final container once you get all the other puzzles solved.

 

If the container is the only puzzle, then likely a traditional with the Field puzzle attribute set, but a puzzle cache to get to the container may keep it away from those after a quick grab that might get frustrated and break it on you.  I know how long it takes to get one of these printed, and tested to be sure it works!  They are a lot of fun though...

Edited October 6, 2020 by CAVinoGal
clarifications

[+colleda]

31 minutes ago, Dode222 said:

Shocker there. I find the more creative and public a cache is, the more likely it'll be muggled. I'm thinking of hiding this down by my local river, a few hundred feet off the trail and setting it to premium only. Then maybe it'll last 6 months before I need to remake it...

Check out the river flood level before placing, keeping in mind the increasing reports of massive rainfalls now being experienced in many places.

This one I DNF'd 6/2017 one turned out to be a good, high maintenance, example.

GC65GW4

Edited October 6, 2020 by colleda

[+barefootjeff]

16 minutes ago, colleda said:

Check out the river flood level before placing, keeping in mind the increasing reports of massive rainfalls now being experienced in many places.

 

Yes, one of mine is hidden in a rock retaining wall a couple of metres above the normal creek level and is only a few hundred metres upstream of where the creek empties into the sea, but in prolonged heavy rain a few years back the water came up high enough to float my original plastic Sistema container away. I replaced it with a steel box weighed down with a couple of large fishing sinkers so even if fully submerged it won't float, and that one has survived.

 

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

If the container is the only puzzle, then likely a traditional with the Field puzzle attribute set, but a puzzle cache to get to the container may keep it away from those after a quick grab that might get frustrated and break it on you.  I know how long it takes to get one of these printed, and tested to be sure it works!  They are a lot of fun though...

There have been posts in the forums where owners have said that their volunteer reviewer insisted that a physical puzzle at the posted coordinates must be listed as a traditional with the Field Puzzle attribute. In a situation like that, I'd add a trivial puzzle to get the coordinates of the physical puzzle just to keep from listing it as a traditional.

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Most I have found are listed as puzzle caches, such as GC3V88J.

After all, they are puzzles.

 

But they're not puzzles that require any preparation before you leave home. The D rating would need to be set to reflect the amount of time someone is likely to take opening it, and of course the Field Puzzle attribute, but it should be okay as a traditional unless the purpose for listing it as a Mystery is to deter people from attempting it.

[+Goldenwattle]

1 minute ago, barefootjeff said:

purpose for listing it as a Mystery is to deter people from attempting it.

It's to warn people there's a puzzle to solve, and to prepare. Such as taking any special needed equipment if it's needed. I have randomly come upon these caches, not knowing they were puzzles, and not had the equipment necessary to retrieve the cache. I haven't been able to claim the find, even though I know where the cache is. Annoying!

[+barefootjeff]

1 minute ago, Goldenwattle said:

It's to warn people there's a puzzle to solve, and to prepare. Such as taking any special needed equipment if it's needed. I have randomly come upon these caches, not knowing they were puzzles, and not had the equipment necessary to retrieve the cache. I haven't been able to claim the find, even though I know where the cache is. Annoying!

 

Did you look at the sample images the OP gave?

 

 

These don't require any special tools or preparation, just enough time and patience to open them.

 

[+niraD]

26 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

But they're not puzzles that require any preparation before you leave home. The D rating would need to be set to reflect the amount of time someone is likely to take opening it, and of course the Field Puzzle attribute, but it should be okay as a traditional unless the purpose for listing it as a Mystery is to deter people from attempting it.

The purpose of listing a cache like this as a mystery/puzzle is to communicate the nature of the experience more accurately to potential seekers.

 

What kind of experience does someone who queries only traditional caches expect? What kind of experience does someone who queries only mystery/puzzle caches expect? Does this cache experience fit better with the former or the latter?

[+Dode222]

3 hours ago, colleda said:

Check out the river flood level before placing, keeping in mind the increasing reports of massive rainfalls now being experienced in many places.

This one I DNF'd 6/2017 one turned out to be a good, high maintenance, example.

GC65GW4

 

Yeah, I guess I should be more specific. It's the Mississippi river, and where I'm placing it there is a pretty long incline from the street down to the river. I'm planning on hiding it closer to the top of the gorge. We don't get a lot of rainfall that dramatically causes river levels to rise, it's more often runoff from the snow that causes high levels.

 

[+barefootjeff]

26 minutes ago, niraD said:

The purpose of listing a cache like this as a mystery/puzzle is to communicate the nature of the experience more accurately to potential seekers.

 

What kind of experience does someone who queries only traditional caches expect? What kind of experience does someone who queries only mystery/puzzle caches expect? Does this cache experience fit better with the former or the latter?

 

For me, finding a traditional means overcoming the terrain to get to GZ, spotting the cache, retrieving the cache, opening the cache and signing the logbook. Some are easy, some are difficult, some have attributes indicating something out of the ordinary is to be expected along the way, such as Difficult Climb, >10km hike, Tree Climb, Boat Required, Wading Required, etc. I've done plenty of traditionals with those sorts of attributes and have never thought they should have been listed as Mysteries, so I don't really see why a field puzzle that doesn't require any advanced preparation to solve should be any different.

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Did you look at the sample images the OP gave?

 

 

These don't require any special tools or preparation, just enough time and patience to open them.

 

Okay, that example, but I have come across traditional marked caches, that need tools to access. Very annoying in a city place, with no sticks, etc to hand. Should be marked as a puzzle, to better warn that preparation is needed. Traditionals are the sort of cache, taking D/T into account that can be done without pre-planning. The sort, that while sitting at a cafe, on a whim you decide to go find a few caches while visiting the city.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Goldenwattle

[+colleda]

56 minutes ago, Dode222 said:

 

Yeah, I guess I should be more specific. It's the Mississippi river, and where I'm placing it there is a pretty long incline from the street down to the river. I'm planning on hiding it closer to the top of the gorge. We don't get a lot of rainfall that dramatically causes river levels to rise, it's more often runoff from the snow that causes high levels.

 

On the Mississippi cruise I did I was surprised that there were not more caches in the places we visited. Kinda expected them to be everywhere after reading all the comments on saturation in this forum. Good luck with your cache.

[+ecanderson]

5 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Most I have found are listed as puzzle caches, such as GC3V88J.

After all, they are puzzles.

Using the "Field Puzzle" attribute indicates that whatever must be done, you are not expected to prepare for dealing with it in advance.  The puzzle presents itself for a solution only when you are on site.

 

Caches at posted coordinates are Traditionals, and if there's a trick to getting to the log once you're got the device in hand, that's why the Field Puzzle attribute was invented.

Caches (or initial waypoints for a Multi) not at posted coordinates are Mystery, requiring some advanced preparation to obtain 'un-posted' coordinates to even know where to start, and even then, if there's a trick to getting to the log once you've got the device in hand, that's why the Field Puzzle attribute was invented.

 

The point of defining a cache as Mystery is to warn the finder that they probably need to have a very close look at the cache page before departing, not just wander off to the coordinates and start looking, as there may no cache there when they arrive.  A finder may comfortably go directly to the posted coordinates if the cache is Traditional with a Field Puzzle attribute.  Big difference when preparing a trip.

 

We can't help it if finders ignore attributes.  Show up at a UV cache without a UV light and you're making just as big a mistake.  Show up during a snowstorm with a "Not Available in Winter" attribute set, and you'll look just as silly.  Attributes can be just as important to the finder as any other part of a cache listing.  Some learn this the hard way.

 

We do seem to have had some definition creep by reviewers over the years, and diverse approaches to the same set of conditions and guideline constraints.  But if you look at what tools have been provided for the CO in a listing, and ask yourself why each was provided, it starts to make a little more sense. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+lee737]

If it's in an area with a lot of muggles and newbie finders, I'd make it a puzzle (probably quite easy)

If in a more remote area, trad with field puzzle attribute.....

[+barefootjeff]

34 minutes ago, ecanderson said:

Attributes can be just as important to the finder as any other part of a cache listing.  Some learn this the hard way.

 

Yep. From one of my logs:

 

Quote

There are razor-wire thorn vines in there. I suppose if I'd looked closely at the attributes I would've known that, but I didn't and stupidly became ensnared in them. What's worse, I was in my summer uniform of just board shorts and a hat, and the hat didn't help much!

 

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, ecanderson said:

We can't help it if finders ignore attributes.

Can't ignore attributes when they don't show up on some devices. Nothing to ignore.

[+lee737]

2 hours ago, ecanderson said:

Attributes can be just as important to the finder as any other part of a cache listing.  Some learn this the hard way.

 

Yep.... Forget attributes.... I learn the hard way by not reading the description!

 

[+frostengel]

9 hours ago, niraD said:

In a situation like that, I'd add a trivial puzzle to get the coordinates of the physical puzzle just to keep from listing it as a traditional.

 

Why adding a trivial puzzle which - mostly - won't add to the fun part of the cache and has nothing to do with the task of opening the cache?

I really like solving/creating unknown caches very much but I would never make a useless riddle just to make a cache unknown.

 

In this case I would better add a riddle that fits to the cache outside. The riddle might have to do something with a maze. The simplest kind is a maze riddle (as children like to do it) where you collect the coordinate numbers piece by piece when following the way from start to exit. I am sure there are several ways to make this more fun and/or a little more challenging. You could use the story of Theseus in the maze of Kreta to make a nice story around the maze cache.

(I once solved a cache like this where the walk through the maze was an animated game and you had to search for geocaching related items (UV lamp for example) and caches in game. Later you found a maze like shown above outside. That was a great one!)

 

I would prefer that idea the most and if not - just make it a traditional cache. But do not add anything useless - an unrelated sudoku riddle or something like that - just to make it a puzzle cache that isn't intended to be one.

 

Jochen

[+NYPaddleCacher]

10 hours ago, Dode222 said:

 

Yeah, I guess I should be more specific. It's the Mississippi river, and where I'm placing it there is a pretty long incline from the street down to the river. I'm planning on hiding it closer to the top of the gorge. We don't get a lot of rainfall that dramatically causes river levels to rise, it's more often runoff from the snow that causes high levels.

 

Still, those containers don't look like they're water resistant.  Imagine spending 10-15 minutes to open the container only to find a soggy logsheet.   Putting the log in a plastic baggie isn't going to help.  Those containers would need to be hidden in a location or manner where they would not get wet.  

[+niraD]

3 hours ago, frostengel said:

Why adding a trivial puzzle which - mostly - won't add to the fun part of the cache and has nothing to do with the task of opening the cache?

I thought I was pretty clear. If the intent is to hide a physical on-site puzzle like that, and if the volunteer reviewer won't let me list it as a mystery/puzzle if it's at the posted coordinates, then I would add a trivial (easily solved) puzzle so that it could be listed as a mystery/puzzle.

 

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't try to fit the trivial (easily solved) puzzle to the theme of the cache. But I wouldn't want the on-page puzzle to become more significant than the physical on-site puzzle.

 

But I'm not going to list a puzzle cache as a traditional just because the puzzle is a physical on-site puzzle rather than an on-page puzzle.

[+IceColdUK]

Deja-vu:

 

I say, Traditional cache with the 'Field Puzzle' attribute.

 

As others have said, if you want to add a layer of protection, consider (i) making it PMO, and/or (ii) turning it into a mystery (with a simple puzzle to obtain the coordinates) or maybe an offset multi (where the coordinates are calculated from, say, a nearby sign).

 

Edit: personally I think the second options are more effective.

Edited October 7, 2020 by IceColdUK

[+IceColdUK]

9 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

10 hours ago, ecanderson said:

We can't help it if finders ignore attributes.

Can't ignore attributes when they don't show up on some devices. Nothing to ignore.

 

I'm sure this must have come up on that previous thread, but the natural extension to this logic is that we simply do away with all attributes.

 

If a cache is at the posted coordinates, it's a Trad (usually).  The D- and T-ratings indicate the effort that might be required to get to the cache (or its logbook), and it's attributes give you more of an idea of what might be required or involved: tree climbing, wading, torch / UV light, or even a field puzzle.

[+cerberus1]

16 hours ago, Dode222 said:

Another option is to make this a premium-only cache with the field puzzle attribute and providing more detail in the cache description.

It's already a pain to make these caches, I'd prefer to have folks who care enough to take their time and care with it.

 

Nice if it's really like that near you.    

The few states we've cached in haven't seen that, and we've found with our own hides  plunking down money doesn't make anyone more responsible.

 

I agree with others, a trad with field puzzle attribute.  I'd place it more than a stroll from a parking lot if "care" is an issue...

Are the linked-to examples the container ?

Doesn't look like that indent along the bottom of insert pieces is made for an O-ring.  It'd interfere with opening.

  If not, what keeps it even water resistant ?  Thanks.

[+niraD]

13 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Apart from what cache type you should list this as, something to consider is the difficulty of resetting the cache for the next finder. These look like closing them requires the same sequence of moves as opening them, in reverse. The physical puzzles I've seen that have worked well as geocaches have been easy to reset. Once finders open them, they don't always have the patience to spend an equal amount of time resetting them.

 

One example of this are the ball-maze gift boxes, where you have to roll a steel ball through a maze. At the end of the maze, the steel ball engages with the latch, allowing the gift box to open. Moving the latch to open the box also moves the steel ball to the beginning of the maze, automatically resetting it for the next attempt with no effort from the solver. This kind of thing works well as a physical puzzle for a geocache (assuming that it is durable enough and protected enough to survive).

[+ecanderson]

9 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Can't ignore attributes when they don't show up on some devices. Nothing to ignore.

One learns to adapt or suffer the consequences.  All tools are not created equal.

 

 

[+cerberus1]

1 minute ago, niraD said:

Apart from what cache type you should list this as, something to consider is the difficulty of resetting the cache for the next finder.

 

Yep.  We see issues with something as simple as returning a key to a tree on the same path back completed.    

That was a pmo hide too...

[+Dode222]

6 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Doesn't look like that indent along the bottom of insert pieces is made for an O-ring.  It'd interfere with opening.

  If not, what keeps it even water resistant ?  Thanks.

This isn't the exact design I went with, but I'm coating it with sealant and paint, and the actual container is inside (small bison tube).