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Tazdoodle

size - bison in a large chunk of wood

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17 minutes ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

What if I place a log book inside of a nano. The nano inside a magnetic key holder. The key holder to the inside of an ammo can. Then hollow out the bottom of a 2 foot diameter rock so I can fit an ammo can in it. Place the ammo can inside of the rock. Then place the rock inside of a hollow tree?  

Do I get to check all the size options? :D

That's "all others" B)

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6 minutes ago, on4bam said:

That's "all others" B)

 

The nested cache was listed as "Other", so I was prepared for a magnetic flat plate with a ziplock bag stuck to it.  "Other" most often being the designation of a torn baggie style trashy thing with the required soaking wet log sheet.  But this one was actually pretty cool.  :)

 

Edited by kunarion
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The purpose of adding a size to the cache description is to assist the seeker in understanding where to search. The search  I do for something listed as a regular is far different from the search I do or a micro. If the seeker finds your peice of wood but does not open it to see the bison tube, have they found the cache?  Its a micro IMHO.

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7 hours ago, baer2006 said:

The ammo can is not "only camo" but also a container by itself. If it can be used to store swag or trackables, I would list it as "regular" size.

 

In this case, the ammo can was packed full to the brim with the rectangular micro containers so there'd be no room for anyone to add swag or trackables except maybe a trackable tag that has nothing attached to it (or a geocoin).

 

7 hours ago, niraD said:

I'm going to look for the micro-cache in cracks and nooks and crannies, but I'm also going to search under larger objects, on the sides of larger objects, etc. Micro-caches are often hidden in or on larger objects, so of course I'm going to search there.

 

I've walked away from "micro" caches when I discover at GZ there are a gazillion places a micro could be hidden, particularly if there's a lot of tree cover and the GPSr is all over the place.

 

The other example I had in mind when I mentioned the ammo can is this one of mine. The outer container is completely hollow and has the volume of a regular, but because it has no lid I've put the logbook and pencil inside a small-sized Sistema to protect them from moisture. It's in a place where there's a multitude of potential hiding places for smalls (or micros) but not so much for something regular-sized, and it's the wombat people will see when they spot it, not the Sistema.

 

hollow_wombat.jpg.3dab0a7f78cecca8e83a634376be6249.jpg

 

 

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6 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Yep.   :)     

We had a series on a bike trail...  all listed as micros (matchstick holders) leading to a  closer-to-regular sized lock n lock.

Most had holes drilled into small limbs, a brick, a rock, and a piece of scrap lumber.

My Bison Trail has an ammo can for the final with an unusual "log" to sign. I don't have a photo of the log but will get one and post it.

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18 hours ago, Tazdoodle said:

Hi there - My hubby drilled a hole in a large chunk of wood which now houses a small bison tube. So, even though the guardian wood is large, I still give the size small for the bison tube, correct? I'm starting to second guess myself. Thanks for any replies.

 

Micro in a host is size Other in my book.

 

Lots if people will just use size Micro though.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

It's in a place where there's a multitude of potential hiding places for smalls (or micros) but not so much for something regular-sized, and it's the wombat people will see when they spot it, not the Sistema.

Don't I know it.... I still can't work out how we had enough data coverage that day to get a message to you over this one...... :)

 

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5 hours ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

What if I place a log book inside of a nano. The nano inside a magnetic key holder. The key holder to the inside of an ammo can. Then hollow out the bottom of a 2 foot diameter rock so I can fit an ammo can in it. Place the ammo can inside of the rock. Then place the rock inside of a hollow tree?  

Do I get to check all the size options? :D

Apparently according to many here, that would make it a micro :laughing:. The rest after the nano cache that is holding the log is no different than a rock.

 

(Just imagine if we ever got a nano rating; then it would be a nano.)

Edited by Goldenwattle
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I have a micro cache, a mint tin, which is a Multi final. The mint tin, containing the log, is in a bag with about 20 other mint tins. The bag is inside an ammo can containing lots of swag, a lot more than would fit in any mint tin. While the log signer is going through the mint tins the kids are having a great time going through the swag. The cache description is "Micro" and gets favourable comments in logs.

 

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15 hours ago, ecanderson said:

Have never understood why it's so variable.

 

Official information is still vague and may have been changed over time.

Currently, the description for cache sizes, when you create a new cache, seems to refer the outside rather than inside volume: Small = About the size of an apple
Official geocaching blog describes inside volume: Small – Just big enough to fit a sandwich.
Help center states exact volume for the container part : Small containers are 100 milliliters to 1 liter. They’re about the size of an apple. They can hold a small logbook and trade items.

 

I can't find examples that camouflage should be included in the size estimate. Usually I don’t have problems with random sizes, but sometimes I feel misled when I look for a small cache and it happens to be micro. Usually less than 100 milliliters of PET preform, which should be micro.

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22 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

Wow, that's just plain nasty!  I should make one of those. :P

I've always wanted to create a decoy ammo can, locked to a tree with a chain and lock.  I just need to find a lock that can be modified to hold a small log or nano.

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26 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've always wanted to create a decoy ammo can, locked to a tree with a chain and lock.  I just need to find a lock that can be modified to hold a small log or nano.

Love it.

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59 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've always wanted to create a decoy ammo can, locked to a tree with a chain and lock.  I just need to find a lock that can be modified to hold a small log or nano.

:D!!

I once found a cache, which was a big bag with a rather big plastic spider in it. Also in the bag was a screwdriver. The spider was obviously held together by screws, so I assumed that the point is to use the screwdriver to open the spider and find (at least) the logbook. However, I didn't find a logbook inside, only a note saying "No, this is not the log" ;) . After a few minutes of cluelessness I figured out, that a cap on the screwdriver's handle can be removed - a nano logbook was inside! And for the context of this thread: The cache size in the listing is "micro".

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I see some people saying that the inner measurement of the container is what determines the size.  I prefer the size to reference what I am looking for.  If you call a bison in a giant hunk of wood a micro, I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood.  I would presume that the whole purpose of listing the size is so that people will have an idea of what they are looking for.

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14 minutes ago, Ageleni said:

I see some people saying that the inner measurement of the container is what determines the size.  I prefer the size to reference what I am looking for.  If you call a bison in a giant hunk of wood a micro, I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood.  I would presume that the whole purpose of listing the size is so that people will have an idea of what they are looking for.

Another factor is what will fit inside the size specified. If it's listed as a regular size then people are going to expect they can leave travel bugs or swag and there might be stuff in it. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ageleni said:

I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood.


Would you not look under the hunk of wood?  I don’t see a Micro embedded in a hunk of wood as very different from a Micro hidden under a hunk of wood.

 

I can understand the argument for using the Other cache size, but it’s certainly not a Small, Regular or Large.

 

Here’s one of mine.

 

4D428725-CCE8-4AB9-9649-73ECF401C1F6.jpeg.9e582ad82d0e7d10a3be0317a95e9742.jpeg

Edited by IceColdUK
Removed completely unrelated photo!
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ageleni said:

If you call a bison in a giant hunk of wood a micro, I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood. 

Exactly. I'm looking for the Bison tube, not the giant hunk of wood. Finding the giant hunk of wood does me no good. I have to spot the Bison tube embedded in it.

 

It's a micro, because that's what I'm looking for.

Edited by niraD
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4 hours ago, IceColdUK said:


Would you not look under the hunk of wood?  I don’t see a Micro embedded in a hunk of wood as very different from a Micro hidden under a hunk of wood.

 

I can understand the argument for using the Other cache size, but it’s certainly not a Small, Regular or Large.

 

Here’s one of mine.

 

4D428725-CCE8-4AB9-9649-73ECF401C1F6.jpeg.9e582ad82d0e7d10a3be0317a95e9742.jpeg

 

To add to this - what if it's a micro that's placed inside a log that naturally has a hollowed out space (rotted out)?  I'd probably put a small in this hypothetical example (if it fit) but wouldn't call it an other, regular, or large.

Screen Shot 2020-10-02 at 9.25.31 AM.png

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10 hours ago, Ageleni said:

I see some people saying that the inner measurement of the container is what determines the size.  I prefer the size to reference what I am looking for.  If you call a bison in a giant hunk of wood a micro, I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood.  I would presume that the whole purpose of listing the size is so that people will have an idea of what they are looking for.

I'm a gonna try one more time ...

 

If you put the bison in the end of a piece of wood that is already laying on the ground, it is a micro.

If you bring the piece of wood with the bison installed in it, WHY is this different?

 

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41 minutes ago, ecanderson said:

I'm a gonna try one more time ...

 

If you put the bison in the end of a piece of wood that is already laying on the ground, it is a micro.

If you bring the piece of wood with the bison installed in it, WHY is this different?

 

 

It isn't different, in my eyes.

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11 hours ago, Ageleni said:

I see some people saying that the inner measurement of the container is what determines the size.  I prefer the size to reference what I am looking for.  If you call a bison in a giant hunk of wood a micro, I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood.  I would presume that the whole purpose of listing the size is so that people will have an idea of what they are looking for.

 

In my opinion, it's a micro. 

That wonderful camouflage (the wood hunk) just bumps up the D-rating!

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On 9/25/2020 at 8:09 AM, NYPaddleCacher said:

I've always wanted to create a decoy ammo can, locked to a tree with a chain and lock.  I just need to find a lock that can be modified to hold a small log or nano.

 

That's easy.  No modification needed.  Real estate agents use Things like this all the time here.     :)

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19 hours ago, Ageleni said:

I see some people saying that the inner measurement of the container is what determines the size.  I prefer the size to reference what I am looking for.  If you call a bison in a giant hunk of wood a micro, I am going to be looking for a micro, not a giant hunk of wood.  I would presume that the whole purpose of listing the size is so that people will have an idea of what they are looking for.

If I'm looking for a regular, I'm *not* going to be inclined to look under that regular sized log because it couldn't possibly be there. List it as a micro, I'll look under the log...and if I'm lucky, I'll remember to look at the ends of the log. List it as a regular, I'm going to stare at that log the whole time and still be wondering where in the world could could they hide a regular here.

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A bison in another object; I list as an 'Other'. That removes all this 'endless' argument about is it a regular or micro. The reviewer suggested for the cache in this photograph to give the size in the Description so people know what to search for, so I wrote, "The item you are looking for is about the size of a small, but will only fit the log." That was acceptable. It also lets other people to know not to expect to be able to leave trinkets, as you can expect to with a small size cache, and also there is no need to have to search in every micro sized crack and crevice, because it isn't  micro sized. Much less confusing than rating it regular or micro. The finder figures out the rest. Whether it's a bison in a log, or something else. It wasn't hard with my cache though, once you found it in its tunnel.

Fyshwick Choo Choo.jpg

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26 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

The reviewer suggested for the cache in this photograph to give the size in the Description so people know what to search for

In that situation, where you really are searching for the small-size object, it makes sense to list it as "Other". You're searching for a small-size object that can contain only a micro-size volume.

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3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

A bison in another object; I list as an 'Other'. That removes all this 'endless' argument about is it a regular or micro.

 

And gives the finder no clue at all about the actual size of the container.  Not sure that really helps.

If you place a bison in another object already on site, do you always call it an 'other'? 

 

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48 minutes ago, ecanderson said:

And gives the finder no clue at all about the actual size of the container.  Not sure that really helps.

If you place a bison in another object already on site, do you always call it an 'other'? 

 

The description can include clues/hints/out right statements about what you are looking for with an "other" sized cache, if the CO wants to give you that much help.

 

Whether to call it an "other" really depends if the bison is resting in the object, or if it's mounted in the object.  If the object becomes part of the cache because the bison is permanently attached (glued, wedged) then it's a small/regular/large container with micro capacity, hence an "other".  And, generally, this should not be done to "items on site", per the guidelines.  

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ecanderson said:

And gives the finder no clue at all about the actual size of the container.  Not sure that really helps.

If you place a bison in another object already on site, do you always call it an 'other'? 

 

Didn't you read what I wrote?

I wrote, "The reviewer suggested for the cache in this photograph to give the size in the Description so people know what to search for, so I wrote, "The item you are looking for is about the size of a small, but will only fit the log." "

Edited by Goldenwattle

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22 hours ago, coachstahly said:

 

To add to this - what if it's a micro that's placed inside a log that naturally has a hollowed out space (rotted out)?  I'd probably put a small in this hypothetical example (if it fit) but wouldn't call it an other, regular, or large.

Screen Shot 2020-10-02 at 9.25.31 AM.png

I have one that uses a large hollowed out log like the ones in the bottom photo.  I put a fake, but very realistic looking rabbit in the log.  The rabbit is hollow and contains a micro sized container.  The log sheet is in that container.  I have it listed as a micro.

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On 10/2/2020 at 11:26 PM, coachstahly said:

 

Screen Shot 2020-10-02 at 9.25.31 AM.png

On the left, I see a lion chewing a piece of meat

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5 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Didn't you read what I wrote?

I wrote, "The reviewer suggested for the cache in this photograph to give the size in the Description so people know what to search for, so I wrote, "The item you are looking for is about the size of a small, but will only fit the log." "

Yes, I read what you wrote.  Your second sentence above is a special case.  You generalized in the earlier post that "A bison in another object; I list as an 'Other'."

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7 hours ago, The Jester said:

Whether to call it an "other" really depends if the bison is resting in the object, or if it's mounted in the object.  If the object becomes part of the cache because the bison is permanently attached (glued, wedged) then it's a small/regular/large container with micro capacity, hence an "other".  And, generally, this should not be done to "items on site", per the guidelines.  

I'm not sure that's a useful distinction.

 

If I'm looking for a Bison tube stuck on the end of a large-size log, I don't really care whether the Bison tube is permanently attached with epoxy, or can be removed from a hole drilled in the log. Either way, I'm looking for a Bison tube.

 

The distinction that seems useful to me is whether I need to spot the micro-size container attached to the larger object, or whether finding the larger object itself will tell me that I've found the cache.

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9 hours ago, niraD said:

If I'm looking for a Bison tube stuck on the end of a large-size log, I don't really care whether the Bison tube is permanently attached with epoxy, or can be removed from a hole drilled in the log. Either way, I'm looking for a Bison tube.

 

The distinction that seems useful to me is whether I need to spot the micro-size container attached to the larger object, or whether finding the larger object itself will tell me that I've found the cache.

 

Yes. In the case of my wombat cache, the thing people will see when they're searching for it is the regular-sized wombat, not the small Sistema tucked inside it.

 

hollow_wombat.jpg.3dab0a7f78cecca8e83a634376be6249.jpg

 

WombatHollow.jpg.463ee734021266ffb2417c16ec11e65c.jpg

 

If anyone did want to leave a trackable or swag that wouldn't fit inside the Sistema, there's a regular-sized amount of space inside the wombat's belly for that, but the cache is at the end of a 6km hike from the nearest road and is rarely visited so that's probably not a good idea anyway as trackables left there won't do much travelling.

 

Another edge case that I've mentioned before is caches hidden in national parks here, where only the logbook, a pen/pencil and a pencil sharpener are allowed inside caches. For these, knowing the internal volume is of no use since you can't leave anything there.

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A bison tube is generally listed as a micro, but when I place a cache like yours (small inner container, larger outer container), I call it 'other.'  I don't want to mislead cachers about the size, but I also don't want them to think they're looking for a micro when it's larger!  

 

 

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Better to be looking for a micro when it's larger than a regular when it's a micro.

The strategy of the search focuses on how narrow the search needs to be.  You are MUCH more likely to stumble across a 30 caliber container looking for a micro than the reverse.  I'd always prefer the error be in THAT direction, whatever the cause.

 

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If we can't find a micro in what/wherever we feel a micro should be, we begin to "pick up/turn over" things JIC.

 - I thought everybody did the same. :)

We've found enough fake rocks, bolts, and nanos in things to realize that a micro can be hidden anywhere.  

We're looking for a micro...

If we were looking for "other", we'd figure it's simply a nano, or the CO being "tricky", like a mini ammo can I found when most didn't notice other was listed, but "you are looking for an ammo can..." was mentioned in the description.   ;)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

If we were looking for "other", we'd figure it's simply a nano, or the CO being "tricky", like a mini ammo can I found when most didn't notice other was listed, but "you are looking for an ammo can..." was mentioned in the description.   ;)

I have a mini ammo can cache. I have listed it as a "micro" because that's what it is. And, I mention in the description that you are looking for an ammo can. It's up to the seeker to figure out what  this means and tie the two together. The difficulty D is also upped by 1/2 star because of this. Being a miniature version of something (or vice versa) does not IMO make it "other".

Refer log by Morky70

Edited by colleda
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5 hours ago, ecanderson said:

Better to be looking for a micro when it's larger than a regular when it's a micro.

The strategy of the search focuses on how narrow the search needs to be.  You are MUCH more likely to stumble across a 30 caliber container looking for a micro than the reverse.  I'd always prefer the error be in THAT direction, whatever the cause.

 

In honeycombed rock like this, a micro, especially if it might actually be a nano, could be anywhere.

 

HoneycombedRock.jpg.310dcb93ad0c8af5ec77962ccc75c8f5.jpg

 

Knowing that the thing you're looking for is a small or even a regular, even if the inner logbook container is micro-sized, converts a mind-blowing needle-in-a-haystack search into something a lot more reasonable. Heck, if it's regular-sized, it mightn't even be in the honeycombing at all but instead concealed under a ledge at the bottom, but if it was listed as a micro because that was its internal volume, I'd probably spend half an hour scouring the honeycombing then walk away shaking my head.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

 

In honeycombed rock like this, a micro, especially if it might actually be a nano, could be anywhere.

 

HoneycombedRock.jpg.310dcb93ad0c8af5ec77962ccc75c8f5.jpg

 

Knowing that the thing you're looking for is a small or even a regular, even if the inner logbook container is micro-sized, converts a mind-blowing needle-in-a-haystack search into something a lot more reasonable. Heck, if it's regular-sized, it mightn't even be in the honeycombing at all but instead concealed under a ledge at the bottom, but if it was listed as a micro because that was its internal volume, I'd probably spend half an hour scouring the honeycombing then walk away shaking my head.

I have DNFed caches because they were listed as a micro, and spent time searching in the wrong places. Finding it later when I was told it was a small. Rating a cache wrongly can cause DNFs.

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On 10/3/2020 at 1:54 AM, ecanderson said:
On 10/2/2020 at 9:55 PM, Goldenwattle said:

A bison in another object; I list as an 'Other'. That removes all this 'endless' argument about is it a regular or micro.

 

And gives the finder no clue at all about the actual size of the container.  Not sure that really helps.

If you place a bison in another object already on site, do you always call it an 'other'? 

 

Is that lack of a clue to size so terrible?  Doesn't it just increase the "D" rating?

 

And doesn’t the category "other" avoid the "endless arguments" and accurately suggest that size is either very small or ambiguous?

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21 minutes ago, wmpastor said:

 

Is that lack of a clue to size so terrible?  Doesn't it just increase the "D" rating?

 

And doesn’t the category "other" avoid the "endless arguments" and accurately suggest that size is either very small or ambiguous?

'Other' could be big too. I think it's a good rating when external and internal dimensions don't match. I have seen it used wrongly though for standard containers. (But then again, so many containers are wrongly marked small or regular too.)

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10 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

'Other' could be big too. I think it's a good rating when external and internal dimensions don't match. I have seen it used wrongly though for standard containers. (But then again, so many containers are wrongly marked small or regular too.)

 

The Help Centre says:

 

Quote

Other (--)

Some containers just don't fit into size categories, like a magnetic sheet with a logbook attached. See the cache description for more information.

 

As long as the description actually provides that "more information", it shouldn't be ambiguous unless that's the intention of the CO. For my own hides, I try to set the size rating to that which will be most helpful to the seekers, both when they're looking for it and if there's a likelihood they'll be wanting to leave something in it. For the more remote caches where leaving swag or trackables is less likely, I'm more inclined to set the size by the outside dimension and mention in the description if there's any limitation on what can fit inside it, but would lean the other way if the cache saw a lot of swag and trackables go through it.

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8 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Other (--)

Some containers just don't fit into size categories, like a magnetic sheet with a logbook attached.

That's why I list containers where the external and internal dimensions don't match, as they don't fit into a size category. (The example given, was just one example of this.) I am following the guidelines.

I have three caches marked as 'other'. For two of them I have clues to the size. 1. The item you are looking for is about the size of a small, but will only fit the log. 2. GZ: Tree. The cache rocks.

With 2, not a size, but the clue makes it obvious with what the cache is. A common cache style here.

With my third cache marked 'Other', the rating is higher to match the mystery. But once the finder looks from the right angle, the cache is very hard to miss.

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