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Earthcaches vs Admission Fees


JL_HSTRE

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Earthcaches seem to still be allowed on public lands (national parks, state parks, etc) with admission fees.

 

What about an Earthcache that is outdoors, but requires admission to a site operated by a non-profit organization? Examples: botanical garden or the grounds of a museum. Would that be a violation of commercial guidelines?

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4 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Earthcaches seem to still be allowed on public lands (national parks, state parks, etc) with admission fees.

 

What about an Earthcache that is outdoors, but requires admission to a site operated by a non-profit organization? Examples: botanical garden or the grounds of a museum. Would that be a violation of commercial guidelines?

If it's really a non-profit organization like a botanical garden or a museum, then how is that commercial?

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3 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

The Guidelines don't make a clear distinction between for profit, not profit, and not-free public.

Perhaps, but caches in parks and open spaces that charge entrance/parking fees have always been allowed, as long as it isn't being run as a for-profit business (e.g., commercial campgrounds, amusement parks).

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On 9/22/2020 at 4:08 PM, JL_HSTRE said:

Earthcaches seem to still be allowed on public lands (national parks, state parks, etc) with admission fees.

 

What about an Earthcache that is outdoors, but requires admission to a site operated by a non-profit organization? Examples: botanical garden or the grounds of a museum. Would that be a violation of commercial guidelines?

 

During the review process, we look at two things when a fee is involved. First, is it a commercial fee or not? Second, is it a reasonable fee?

 

For the first part, it can't be a for-profit entity - if it is, Groundspeak would have to allow it. But national/state/county/municipal park fees are allowed, and so are non-profit entities such as the Nature Conservancy, botanic gardens, and museums.

 

For the second part, reviewers have discretion as to what might be a "reasonable" fee in their area.

 

Since you're in Florida, unless you're planning or discussing a cache outside of your normal commute, I'm your local geoaware. I'm happy to discuss specifics if we're talking about an existing or potential earthcache in the SE USA. Or we can talk it here, up to you.

Edited by geoawareUSA9
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Be aware that a non-profit is not a guarantee that it is not commercial. If you mention it too much how great they are, they sell T-shirts, or push the company too much you can roll into the commercial aspect. 

A large non-profit in my area runs a Garden, a museum that sells a ton of stuff, has a few stores, various art and gardening studios that you can take classes in.  Your write up could push it over the commercial edge.edge.  

 

Every case and write up is different, touch bases with your reviewer, write up a skeleton page, and submit it with a question. 

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2 minutes ago, BlueRajah said:

Be aware that a non-profit is not a guarantee that it is not commercial. If you mention it too much how great they are, they sell T-shirts, or push the company too much you can roll into the commercial aspect. 

Well, sure. Just because the admission/parking fee is okay doesn't mean there aren't other ways for the CO to violate the guidelines prohibiting agendas or commercial caches.

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On 9/25/2020 at 7:13 AM, geoawareUSA9 said:

For the second part, reviewers have discretion as to what might be a "reasonable" fee in their area.

Any insight as to how that is applied?  Is the fee expected to be reasonable for what the area would provide if one were to take full advantage of it, which a cacher there only to find a cache typically will not?  It's one thing to pay $20 a day for a park entrance fee, but if there's only one cache to be found there, $20/cache is pretty steep.  That the $20 covers all kinds of other activities that would justify $20 for a full day visit is another story. 

Looked at in a $/cache sense, admission fees can indeed look quite 'unreasonable' even though otherwise fair.

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8 hours ago, ecanderson said:

Any insight as to how that is applied?  Is the fee expected to be reasonable for what the area would provide if one were to take full advantage of it, which a cacher there only to find a cache typically will not?  It's one thing to pay $20 a day for a park entrance fee, but if there's only one cache to be found there, $20/cache is pretty steep.  That the $20 covers all kinds of other activities that would justify $20 for a full day visit is another story. 

Looked at in a $/cache sense, admission fees can indeed look quite 'unreasonable' even though otherwise fair.

I wouldn't expect dollars/cache to enter into it at all. After all, that will decrease as the number of caches increases, and that will never happen unless people start hiding caches there.

 

I would expect "reasonable" to be based on what is reasonable for that area, for that kind of place. If the public parks are charging $5-10/day for parking, then it would be reasonable for a private non-profit facility to charge something similar. But $50/day might be considered unreasonable.

 

But I am not a volunteer reviewer or a lackey, and I don't even play one on TV, so...

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15 hours ago, ecanderson said:
On 9/25/2020 at 9:13 AM, geoawareUSA9 said:

For the second part, reviewers have discretion as to what might be a "reasonable" fee in their area.

 

Any insight as to how that is applied?  Is the fee expected to be reasonable for what the area would provide if one were to take full advantage of it, which a cacher there only to find a cache typically will not?  It's one thing to pay $20 a day for a park entrance fee, but if there's only one cache to be found there, $20/cache is pretty steep.  That the $20 covers all kinds of other activities that would justify $20 for a full day visit is another story. 

Looked at in a $/cache sense, admission fees can indeed look quite 'unreasonable' even though otherwise fair.

 

As I said, it is at the discretion of individual reviewers, so it is applied individually.

 

I don't recall publishing caches recently at any parks, museums, or arboretums (arboreta?), etc. that have charged more than $10. I did deny one at a Disney park in Florida a while back, but that because the fee was both commercial and unreasonably high -- and Disney did not give permission for the cache.

 

The fees at many of the US National Parks have increased over the years; at Shenandoah, for example, the entry fee is apparently up to $30 per vehicle or $15 per person. That's not so cheap. But as the earthcache reviewer that covers that park, I would not deny a cache in Shenandoah based solely on the fee. Instead, I would require the cache owner to disclose in the description that there is a fee to enter the park, and to use the entry fee attribute. Then I would let geocachers themselves determine whether the fee is unreasonable - vote by their feet, as it were. If no one logs the cache, then the market has determined that the entry fee was unreasonable for that caching experience.

 

If you want to know what a particular geoaware would determine is reasonable for an entry fee, it's best to contact them and ask. For Colorado, that would be geoawareUSA2. Other US states and territories are as below.

 

730fb742-c379-4df2-be96-5ea907338fa2.png

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Appreciate the insight.  Yes, park fees have gone through the roof over the last few years.  Even the 'old farts' lifetime pass for National Parks has gone WAY up compared to just a couple of years ago.

I did deny one at a Disney park in Florida a while back, but that because the fee was both commercial

and unreasonably high -- and Disney did not give permission for the cache.

Besides those issues, didn't the CO realize that Splash Mountain isn't real?

:P
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I once had to pay an entrance fee A$10 (US $7.16) to get an Earthcache. It was worth the money though, as it was a very interesting place. One of the more interesting Earthcaches. I considered this charity though and was more than happy to pay it, as the people who ran it were very poor, and this was likely their only income, and they didn't get much from this source either.

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"Senior" national park passes here are 8X the cost of just a couple of years ago.  Of course, that gets you into a lot of territory here in the U.S., so I don't begrudge them that. 

 

However, a little county park with an $12 per visit park pass for a 10 minute visit is a little excessive.  Definitely not 'charity' as they're using  county taxes to help pay for the upkeep.  If we planned to spend the day there making actual use of their facilities, there wouldn't be a complaint, but when we're on a cache run, we usually don't bring our fishing poles or jet skis.

 

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I came upon a Virtual requiring an entrance fee today. After walking there, I was not paying that fee. Adults 6 Euros. That's almost A$10. That's not token money! I think that's too much to expect people to pay to find a cache. A couple of dollars maybe. Or I would pay (and have) that to poor people in a third world country to do, in that case an Earthcache. But this is a rich organisation in a first world country; the Catholic Church. They are charging people to go in the church.

 

 image.thumb.jpeg.ac44cd9206529088f1cf46c7733cbe0d.jpeg

Edited by Goldenwattle
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On 9/25/2020 at 9:13 AM, geoawareUSA9 said:

During the review process, we look at two things when a fee is involved. First, is it a commercial fee or not? Second, is it a reasonable fee?

 

For the first part, it can't be a for-profit entity - if it is, Groundspeak would have to allow it. But national/state/county/municipal park fees are allowed, and so are non-profit entities such as the Nature Conservancy, botanic gardens, and museums.

 

For the second part, reviewers have discretion as to what might be a "reasonable" fee in their area.

 

This is a thread about Earthcaches, but the guidance from 2020 by geoawareUSA9 also applies to Virtual Caches.  In most parts of the world, a 6 Euro fee charged by a non-profit or government entity would be considered "reasonable."

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Since this thread was bumped, I wanted to update the USA geoaware map.

 

8d30113b-58ee-4e05-85f2-ff789a6e66d5.png

 

As for the question in the bump, for the record, I would not consider a 15 euro fee unreasonable enough to deny publication or warrant archival.

 

But again, this is a case where cachers can vote with their feet: if you personally find the fee unreasonable, don't pay it, and don't find the cache.

 

Not every cache is for everyone.

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51 minutes ago, geoawareUSA9 said:

Since this thread was bumped, I wanted to update the USA geoaware map.


Thanks for chiming in on the fees, but moreover, thanks for the update on the geoaware map. 

Edited by Neos2
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The virtual cache I referred to just had another geocacher post a "Owner attention requested This geocacher reported that there is a problem with this cache."

They were very disappointed they couldn't afford the entrance fee.

 

"This was the first stop on our first afternoon in Cork and my boys were so excited to log their first Irish cache. What a shame we have to pay for what is supposed to be a free activity. Unfortunately we are on a family travel budget. At least they had fun playing footy in the park."

 

The family fee is 15 Euro.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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If the entrance fee is disclosed on the cache page (and, ideally, the entrance fee attribute is selected), then there is no maintenance required for the virtual cache that @Goldenwattle is discussing.  It would be disappointing to arrive at the cache site without being warned about the entry fee.  But, if the entry fee is disclosed on the cache page, then the experience can be chalked up to lack of proper research. 

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18 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

The virtual cache I referred to just had another geocacher post a "Owner attention requested This geocacher reported that there is a problem with this cache."

They were very disappointed they couldn't afford the entrance fee.

 

The family fee is 15 Euro.

 

Your update does not change my opinion, or the rule.

 

15 euros is not an unreasonable fee. While it is slightly more than I have seen for entering a church, it is not exorbitant.

 

I see the fee attribute is selected for this cache. Also, looking at the cache history, I see the fee schedule has been disclosed since the time of publication in 2019.

 

Therefore, the entrance fee should not be a surprise to anyone who takes the time to read the description prior to their visit.

 

Perhaps the relatively new cacher who recently complained didn't know better, but more experienced cachers have been given all the information they need to decide whether to visit this virtual prior to arrival.

 

I hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday.

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7 hours ago, geoawareUSA9 said:

but more experienced cachers have been given all the information they need to decide whether to visit this virtual prior to arrival.

I get your point. However in reality, people walking kms around a town, going from cache to cache (often unplanned, log one, walk onto the next closest), I imagine many don't stop to read the blurb until they are there. And then maybe not even then for some, such as traditionals. Especially GPS users, with their small screens. I for instance, like to read the history, etc information later when logging, when I have a larger computer screen.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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