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Cali9-1-1

There has to be an easier way/Mystery & Multi

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I tried looking through topics to find my answer but didn't know how to word the search. So after some random looking I am creating a new topic.

One of the most frustrating parts of hiding new traditional caches is being "cache blocked" after submission by the "real location" of a Mystery or a stage to a multi cache. So even though I very much dislike Mystery caches or solving riddles, math problems etc etc etc I started trying to solve the easier ones so I could know where I can hide my new traditional caches. But soon as you log a find on the Mystery it pops it back to the original spot on the map and again I don't know later on if I am too close to the final. Because it's not like I am going to memorize where 50+ finals are in each part of town. (There are A LOT of these type caches in the Hamilton Co TN Area). Also I literally can not solve a lot of them. Sure I can ask CO , but again that doesn't help when trying to hide a cache and using phone or Garmin to tell me if I am 528ft away or not, because the device doesn't know, because it's not like I can click on the cache and it say "You are 400ft" like it would if it was a traditional cache. When submiting a new hide those lil red circles don't pop up because even the website doesn't show you're too close. You end up waiting up to 7 days for a reviewer to get back to you to tell you sorry but your cache is 312 ft from the final to a mystery or multi and I can't tell you where that is. There has got to be an easier way to get around this block. Does anyone know a simple solution that does not involved having to solve and update any coordinates?

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10 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

Because it's not like I am going to memorize where 50+ finals are in each part of town.

Fortunately, with the 'corrected coordinates' tool, you don't need to memorize them.  Or, if you are a GSAK user, you can keep track of solved mysteries and physical stages of multicaches in your offline database.

 

11 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

There has got to be an easier way to get around this block.

Ask your Reviewer for a "coordinate check" before you go through the trouble of hiding the cache, getting permission, etc.  Details on how to do this can be found in this Help Center article, under the heading "Ask a Reviewer to Check Coordinates."  We're happy to help!

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Keystone has addressed your primary concern. I just wanted to add...

 

22 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

But soon as you log a find on the Mystery it pops it back to the original spot on the map and again I don't know later on if I am too close to the final.

Some of us have been complaining about this behaviour for a while. One recent example:

 

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I don't use GSAK. I need the coordinates to be the same on the map after finding them, not the same on the individual cache pages. That isn't helpful when there a numerous Mystery caches in a 2mile radius of where I may want a hide to be. Asking a reviewer about location could take up to a week for each and every check and with my busy schedule who has time to do that over and over again until you get lucky enough to avoid every single multi or mystery in a 2mile radius. It is really surprising that there isn't an easy solve for this yet. Apps and computer programs are smart. Why can it not at the bare minimum pop up that red circle during the listing phase when a mystery or multi is too close? That would at least save some of the time. Still wouldn't be ideal though. With so many of these type caches in my area I wish it was a seperate game all together for those of us who like the traditional only & are tired of getting cache blocked during hides. You can't just sit in your living room with google maps and the app up and pick a spot for a hide and ask reviewer if it's available. You need to be on site, seeing GZ with your eyes, being able to make sure the container is perfect the location is perfect, and the placement works.

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14 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

I don't use GSAK.

Neither do I.

 

14 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

I need the coordinates to be the same on the map after finding them, not the same on the individual cache pages. That isn't helpful when there a numerous Mystery caches in a 2mile radius of where I may want a hide to be.

My point is that a lot of us have complained about the way solved puzzle caches snap back to their bogus posted coordinates after you post a Find log. There are multiple threads in the bugs & features forum about this behavior. The one I linked to is just an example.

 

14 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

Asking a reviewer about location could take up to a week for each and every check and with my busy schedule who has time to do that over and over again until you get lucky enough to avoid every single multi or mystery in a 2mile radius.

If it's that hard to find an open spot, then perhaps the area is fairly saturated, and doesn't really need another cache. At one point, the guidelines stated that the goals of the saturation guideline were "to encourage you to seek out new places to hide caches rather than putting them in areas where caches already exist and to limit the number of caches hidden in a particular area". Maybe it's time to seek out new places to hide caches.

 

14 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

It is really surprising that there isn't an easy solve for this yet.

Not really. A system like the one you described could be used to easily "battleship" the final locations of multi-caches and puzzle caches.

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2 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

I tried looking through topics to find my answer but didn't know how to word the search. So after some random looking I am creating a new topic.

One of the most frustrating parts of hiding new traditional caches is being "cache blocked" after submission by the "real location" of a Mystery or a stage to a multi cache. So even though I very much dislike Mystery caches or solving riddles, math problems etc etc etc I started trying to solve the easier ones so I could know where I can hide my new traditional caches. But soon as you log a find on the Mystery it pops it back to the original spot on the map and again I don't know later on if I am too close to the final. Because it's not like I am going to memorize where 50+ finals are in each part of town. (There are A LOT of these type caches in the Hamilton Co TN Area). Also I literally can not solve a lot of them. Sure I can ask CO , but again that doesn't help when trying to hide a cache and using phone or Garmin to tell me if I am 528ft away or not, because the device doesn't know, because it's not like I can click on the cache and it say "You are 400ft" like it would if it was a traditional cache. When submiting a new hide those lil red circles don't pop up because even the website doesn't show you're too close. You end up waiting up to 7 days for a reviewer to get back to you to tell you sorry but your cache is 312 ft from the final to a mystery or multi and I can't tell you where that is. There has got to be an easier way to get around this block. Does anyone know a simple solution that does not involved having to solve and update any coordinates?

 

Dang you pushed me onto my soap box. I'll be brief.

 

100% agree there has to be a better way and don't tell me to send an email to a reviewer to check coordinates. Reviewers should be checking for legal issues and hand holding new COs. The tool should come back with a valid/invalid placement, If I'm walking through a park find a cool spot pop onto the app check location. Cool I now have a awesome hide spot it still needs to be reviewed but no hassle.

 

The possible solutions are endless. Prioritize the whole experience over prevention of cheating. Cheating does not hurt anyone in this game (that could be a separate thread). Put in safeguards to detect cheating checkers limit the number of checks a similar method could be done. Don't have mystery caches solve for coordinates but some other keyword or number that gets put in a checker and unless you get the checker valid you don't get the find even if you cheat to get the coordinates. This is only a suggestion software and algorithms are only limited by your imagination. Solutions exist just take a desire to do it.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Keystone said:

Fortunately, with the 'corrected coordinates' tool, you don't need to memorize them.  Or, if you are a GSAK user, you can keep track of solved mysteries and physical stages of multicaches in your offline database.

 

Ask your Reviewer for a "coordinate check" before you go through the trouble of hiding the cache, getting permission, etc.  Details on how to do this can be found in this Help Center article, under the heading "Ask a Reviewer to Check Coordinates."  We're happy to help!

 

GSAK is not supported on all platforms. This should never be solution. 

 

You are missing the point I should not have to ask anyone if a spot is open. Dang no down vote.

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2 hours ago, niraD said:

If it's that hard to find an open spot, then perhaps the area is fairly saturated, and doesn't really need another cache. At one point, the guidelines stated that the goals of the saturation guideline were "to encourage you to seek out new places to hide caches rather than putting them in areas where caches already exist and to limit the number of caches hidden in a particular area". Maybe it's time to seek out new places to hide caches.

The area is full of MYSTERY caches and because their finals can be up to 2miles away (and are typically light pole caches) no one can hide traditional caches in more interesting spots in the area without jumping through the endless attempts mentioned. So for people like me who only want to hunt traditional caches the area is not saturated at all but almost barren.

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2 hours ago, niraD said:

Not really. A system like the one you described could be used to easily "battleship" the final locations of multi-caches and puzzle caches.

What's the difference between cheaters logging traditional caches they haven't found, and cheaters logging mystery caches they didn't solve? If a C.O. doesn't believe someone found a traditional they have to physically go to the cache and check the log to catch the cheater. If a Mystery CO is so worried about cheaters they can take it upon themselves to require a cacher to send them a email or message explaining how they solved the mystery, or send them a picture of how they worked through the puzzle or whatever proof before logging the tangible find. at least they don't have to leave the house to catch the cheater that way. Although on that topic I recently found the final to a mystery cache and there were 9 online logs that were not signed on the paper at all , which I advised the CO about. Cheaters will be cheaters I don't know why, it doesn't seem fun to me.

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11 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

If a Mystery CO is so worried about cheaters they can take it upon themselves to require a cacher to send them a email or message explaining how they solved the mystery, or send them a picture of how they worked through the puzzle or whatever proof before logging the tangible find. at least they don't have to leave the house to catch the cheater that way.

 

No, that would be an Additional Logging Requirement which is not allowed for physical caches other than Challenge Caches. Under the guidelines, a log is valid if there's a signature in the logbook and that's the only requirement a CO can enforce. There are non-cheating ways of finding puzzle caches or multis without solving the puzzle or visiting all the waypoints, such as if you're tagging along with friends who have, have been able to figure out or guess where the cache might be based on other information (I've had a few finds like that on my mysteries and multis and I applaud their ingenuity and tenacity) or even just stumble across the container by accident.

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I hate the excuse of battle shipping. Please if you want to spend the time entering into a checker all possible coordinates within a 2 mile radius hats off to you congratulations. Heck I guess I've done this came up with all but one coordinate so looked at a map for where these would land and viola came up with two or three options. Did I cheat I suppose so, I solved the puzzle.

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Honestly, if you have that many mystery caches in a relatively small area - especially if they're a bit rubbish - I'd just look at a different area to hide caches in.

 

I have the problem a little way away from me. It's just not worth my time and effort to try to hide anything in there. I'll wait until they eventually get archived and think about it then - until then I have plenty of space in just as or even much more interesting locations. I'll use that and then I'll do as I'd like others to do and not saturate an area.

Edited by Blue Square Thing
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You hid 162 traditional caches. So I think you have figured out where you can place them?? How did you do it so far?

 

I hide about one cache per year, mostly multi caches and unknown caches. I have solved many riddles around here but - as you say, too - I can't remember them all exactly. But if I have found a good location I usually have the feelings which finals (and stages) might be problematic - and then I try to remember or look at my old notes to get the coordinates to see how far away I am.

 

And if I am too close I'll search for another location that suits to my cache idea or that I like. And before constructing something big I ask the reviewer if that's okay - and it's not just about the saturation guideline but about other things that might be problematic.

 

I think this is a special problem for cachers who don't want to solve any riddles but at the same time want to put out many caches - in a short time. But that won't work and if there are so many unsolved questionmarks on the map, perhaps there are just enough caches in the area? Not any place that's "free" needs to get a cache. Why not hide in more lonely areas?

 

I am sure if you slow down you might find the patience to find good final locations for some new caches?!

 

By the way (and this often helped me): in my area pseudo and final coordinates usually are not as distant as allowed so usually you have a better feeling where the final might be (not exactly of course). So one unknown cache might be anywhere around 3.2 kilometers from the listing coordinates - but usually they aren't.

 

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2 minutes ago, frostengel said:

You hid 162 traditional caches. So I think you have figured out where you can place them?? How did you do it so far?

:drama:

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9 hours ago, MNTA said:

 

GSAK is not supported on all platforms. This should never be solution. 

 

Which is probably why he put it "If you are a GSAK user...".

 

I've never understood the strong negative reaction by some to GSAK.

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7 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

If a C.O. doesn't believe someone found a traditional they have to physically go to the cache and check the log to catch the cheater. If a Mystery CO is so worried about cheaters they can take it upon themselves to require a cacher to send them a email or message explaining how they solved the mystery, or send them a picture of how they worked through the puzzle or whatever proof before logging the tangible find. at least they don't have to leave the house to catch the cheater that way

Against the guidelines. 

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10 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

Asking a reviewer about location could take up to a week for each and every check

Actually it takes about 2 minutes. 

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27 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Which is probably why he put it "If you are a GSAK user...".

 

I've never understood the strong negative reaction by some to GSAK.

I can only answer for myself. I have nothing against it, so that's not the reason for me not to use it. Personally for me, I tried to understand it, but failed. It's no good trying to explain it here; what I need if someone who uses it to personally pick up my GPS and show me how to use it.

Edited by Goldenwattle

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13 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Which is probably why he put it "If you are a GSAK user...".

 

I've never understood the strong negative reaction by some to GSAK.

 

I think I do.  But I'm waiting for the hailstorm to follow...

 

Strong negative reaction usually means "I don't have a platform that supports it", and (if they'd admit it) "I'm tired of hearing about what the rest of you are doing with it.  Geocaching.com should be doing everything one could possibly need on their web site to make life fair".

or

"I don't have a platform that supports it", and "the author shouldn't have written anything so platform specific".

 

Weak negative reaction usually means "I've heard it has a steep learning curve".

 

To the former, what can I say?  My Windows machine won't run my favorite old MacDraw program, either.  Most people who are permitted to choose will choose their platforms based upon available tools supported on a given platform.  Serious tools like Pro-E don't run on a Macintosh, either.  Sometimes you gotta have more than one box.  Nothing new here in decades.

 

To the latter, I say - If it sounds like you can solve your problem with it, speak up.  We'll help you get the basics down here or better, over at gsak.net.  Just ask. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Nothing against it, so that's not the reason for me not to use. Personally for me, I tried to understand it, but failed. It's no good trying to explain it here; what I need if someone who uses it to personally pick up my GPS and show me how to use it.

You're a bit too far away, GW, or I'd take you up on it! 

 

Locally, we've done a couple of hands-on classes for new users here, same as for new owners of GPS units.  Perhaps you can find someone in your area to show you the basics.  Most tasks don't require much effort at all.  It's one of those tools that can you can take from simple tasks to bizarrely complex ones based upon need and experience.  The trick is to see the basics done first and not let yourself get into the weeds.  99% of what most people do is load Pocket Queries and MyFinds lists and the like and manipulate them for one reason or another.  Wanna sort, just hit the top of a column.  Want to search, just tell it what you're looking for (and believe me, Clyde left out nothing about caches or logs that you can't search one way or another).  Want to compare two lists, just load them both and run a macro tool someone has already written (and there's lots of those, too).

 

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5 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Actually it takes about 2 minutes. 

In Oklahoma it may take 2mins. We have different reviewers in TN. Sometimes it can take a few hours, other times it can take a few days to a week. Depending on the reviewers daily busy real life & how many requests they have waiting.

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I'll put my 2c into the mix: with the cache hide planning tool, can't it be updated so that if you click on a "blank" spot, it'll automatically go "soz coz, taken" if it's too close to a multi / mystery? I can understand not wanting to place a big red bulls-eye on every known point as it would give away where multi and mystery caches would / could it be set up to "reserve" an area the non-displayed cache points so that potential CO's can quickly self check for where they could put a cache without having to send a parade of emails to the Reviewer?

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12 hours ago, niraD said:

:drama:

 

12 hours ago, niraD said:

You hid 162 traditional caches. So I think you have figured out where you can place them?? How did you do it so far?

A lot of pain in the *** back and forth with reviewers, and moving my cache sometimes miles, and solving things I don't want to solve and are not fun for me, and talking with CO's. Lots of work, which takes some of the fun out of the game & decreases the stress relief that I use the game for. I can hide a million caches and that doesn't change the point that there should be a way around this MYSTERY & Multi finals ruining the fun for those who do not enjoy that part of the game.

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3 minutes ago, Unit473L said:

I'll put my 2c into the mix: with the cache hide planning tool, can't it be updated so that if you click on a "blank" spot, it'll automatically go "soz coz, taken" if it's too close to a multi / mystery? I can understand not wanting to place a big red bulls-eye on every known point as it would give away where multi and mystery caches would / could it be set up to "reserve" an area the non-displayed cache points so that potential CO's can quickly self check for where they could put a cache without having to send a parade of emails to the Reviewer?

**THIS** would be helpful. And so much relief on the reviewers too. They wouldn't have to reply over and over again about how "i'm sorry but your cache is 312ft from blah blah blah" ... next message "I'm sorry but your cache is now over 528ft from the final I told you about in the previous message but now it is 99ft from a different final" followed by a dozen similar messages.

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Yes I can hide caches in the middle of nowhere , far away from all other caches/mystery/multi whatever. And I do have some of those, and will have more. But I also like Urban caches someone can grab on their lunch break or on their way home from work to de-stress. Just because a city area is saturated with Mystery caches shouldn't mean there can't be traditional caches for those like me who need the stress relief but don't like stressful puzzles. I'm not saying get rid of the Mystery or Multi caches at all. Just make it easier to avoid them than an endless guessing game.

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13 hours ago, frostengel said:

Why not hide in more lonely areas?

 

Sometimes this can prevent you from placing a cache in more lonely areas, where more lonely often means more remote.

 

17 hours ago, niraD said:

Not really. A system like the one you described could be used to easily "battleship" the final locations of multi-caches and puzzle caches.

 

While in case of some multi-caches and some puzzle caches without a checker included it could be true, currently checkers give the possibility to "battleship" the final locations already. In area more "crowded" with multi-caches and mysteries, the question "Is this location free?" answered with simple "Yes" or "No" without any further details is less informative in the subject of "brute-forcing" puzzle solution than the blind shot with a solution checker. Especially if it is limited with "no more than x checks in y minutes" as it is in case of solution checkers.

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18 hours ago, niraD said:

A system like the one you described could be used to easily "battleship" the final locations of multi-caches and puzzle caches.

 

+1.  I'd prefer that the site doesn't get changed for ease of saturation.  There are many ways to be sure one's cache fits.  I know, because I've done it.  This Forum has hundreds of threads on how to find an open spot, no site changes necessary.

 

I'm researching a bunch of impossible puzzles to solve, caches that were never found, out there for years.  Usually, I have entire areas ruled-out, and some likely candidates.  If I could simply click 2 or 3 places and get a response of "location free" or not, I'd have found several by now, without ever knowing what the puzzle solution was.  I'd have FTF on some that nobody ever solved!  I'd certainly find a bunch that I didn't even know about while I ping an elusive one.  Except that people might go battleship the same puzzle before I got the chance. :unsure:

 

And If I had a cool puzzle that intrigues people and they love to work on it, and they've invested a lot of time on the case for years, and then TPTB changed the site so that anyone could battleship it, made it trivial to discover the hiding location, a lot of people would be disappointed.  Once quiet, well-hidden containers would now develop a geo-trail.  Caches would be archived, because over time, construction has changed the area... maybe it's still OK, but it's just too close to muggles today, or maybe guidelines have changed so the container must go away now.  That in no way means we need to ruin these unsolved puzzles, for someone else's convenience.

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1 hour ago, rapotek said:

While in case of some multi-caches and some puzzle caches without a checker included it could be true, currently checkers give the possibility to "battleship" the final locations already. In area more "crowded" with multi-caches and mysteries, the question "Is this location free?" answered with simple "Yes" or "No" without any further details is less informative in the subject of "brute-forcing" puzzle solution than the blind shot with a solution checker. Especially if it is limited with "no more than x checks in y minutes" as it is in case of solution checkers.

Actually, my experience has been that it's easier to battleship when you have a radius (e.g., "Is this area free?") than when you need exact coordinates (e.g., most solution checkers). And the limitation of x checks in y minutes really doesn't slow down the battleshipping much.

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19 hours ago, niraD said:

A system like the one you described could be used to easily "battleship" the final locations of multi-caches and puzzle caches.

26 minutes ago, kunarion said:

+1.  I'd prefer that the site doesn't get changed for ease of saturation.  There are many ways to be sure one's cache fits. 

I know, because I've done it.  This Forum has hundreds of threads on how to find an open spot, no site changes necessary.

 

I'm researching a bunch of impossible puzzles to solve, caches that were never found, out there for years.  Usually, I have entire areas ruled-out, and some likely candidates.  If I could simply click 2 or 3 places and get a response of "location free" or not, I'd have found several by now, without ever knowing what the puzzle solution was.  I'd have FTF on some that nobody ever solved!  I'd certainly find a bunch that I didn't even know about while I ping an elusive one.  Except that people might go battleship the same puzzle before I got the chance. :unsure:

Yep.

We archived a really fun bike trail series after finders told us they could find each cache within feet in-between the numbers run that took over the trail.

 - Years before favorite points, and we got nice logs, but our caches were easily viewed as the only open spots on the map...

I feel there's enough caches today that if someone so desperately needs to squeeze one more in a certain area, they can do whatever caches they feel is in the way. 

 

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1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

Yep.

We archived a really fun bike trail series after finders told us they could find each cache within feet in-between the numbers run that took over the trail.

 - Years before favorite points, and we got nice logs, but our caches were easily viewed as the only open spots on the map...

I feel there's enough caches today that if someone so desperately needs to squeeze one more in a certain area, they can do whatever caches they feel is in the way. 

 

 

I've resisted packing Geocaches into certain areas, so that an obvious void doesn't develop in the map where someone's Bonus cache is.

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10 hours ago, The Jester said:

Which is probably why he put it "If you are a GSAK user...".

 

I've never understood the strong negative reaction by some to GSAK.

 

You might if you only used a Mac.  

 

 

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So basically everyone is saying "Cheaters" is why we can't have nice things? I still don't see the value in cheating. There is no glory in a FTF or any find if you cheated. Who would do that? It makes no sense. But I still feel an update can be done to make it easier than all the back and forth with the reviewers to get a traditional placed within a 2mile radius of a Mystery or Multi. What is the difference besides length of time waiting for answer, between me submitting my cache and waiting 1-7 days to be told you are 211 ft from the final blah blah blah, and then I move it and get told 1-7 days later you are 519ft from the final.... blah blah blah copy paste response... And so on, and so on.... Than the app or website telling me the same thing instantly? Because cheaters won't take the time to go through all that? But now we are saying there are people out there who will hide a bunch of geocaches just to find the finals to these other caches? That doesn't seem very likely... not impossible, but unlikely. I will say I don't think it's fair to those who don't enjoy puzzle/mystery caches to have entire areas off limits to traditional caches just because there are 50 or so mysterys. Traditional hunters would like smiley's too on a quick grab during a lunch break from work to de-stress, unable to drive more than a few mins away from work, not looking for a hike into the woods, just looking for a smile that can be grabbed in 30mins or less.

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5 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

In Oklahoma it may take 2mins. We have different reviewers in TN. Sometimes it can take a few hours, other times it can take a few days to a week. Depending on the reviewers daily busy real life & how many requests they have waiting.

It takes 2 minutes everywhere. You type "coordinate check" in the title, enter the coordinates, and submit. That's all it takes: 2 minutes to ask a reviewer about a location.

21 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

Asking a reviewer about location could take up to a week for each and every check and with my busy schedule who has time to do that

I don't know what a busy schedule has anything to do with it. Unless you're sitting at the computer all week waiting for the response. 

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18 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

The area is full of MYSTERY caches and because their finals can be up to 2miles away (and are typically light pole caches) no one can hide traditional caches in more interesting spots

I thought you supported easy lunch break hides, easy park and grabs that don't involve going into the woods. You said they deserve love too.

Edited by Max and 99
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7 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

So basically everyone is saying "Cheaters" is why we can't have nice things?

 - snip -

Than the app or website telling me the same thing instantly? Because cheaters won't take the time to go through all that?

But now we are saying there are people out there who will hide a bunch of geocaches just to find the finals to these other caches?

That doesn't seem very likely... not impossible, but unlikely. 

I will say I don't think it's fair to those who don't enjoy puzzle/mystery caches to have entire areas off limits to traditional caches just because there are 50 or so mysterys.  

 

There are definitely people who, due to high D/T, will find whatever means necessary to get it found. 

I found a couple by accident once.  Seemed like a good place to hide one, and there was already a cache there.   :)

Even the other 2/3rds got hounded for a while, trying to get me to tell people where they were.   

We heard at events of a couple caches that were archived after the COs got tired of replacing their battleshipped hide.

Some folks weren't cheating for a smiley, they wanted all that area open for their hides, and all the puzzles were in the way.

Isn't that your concern now too ?

I remembered a good post explaining this a bit ... here.

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29 minutes ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

But now we are saying there are people out there who will hide a bunch of geocaches just to find the finals to these other caches?

Why would they need to hide geocaches to battleship the finals? They could just use the saturation checker without actually submitting any caches for review.

 

This is not the first time this topic has come up. Here is one of Keystone's replies to one of the earlier threads:

On 5/23/2019 at 6:56 PM, Keystone said:
On 5/23/2019 at 6:02 PM, dubidubno said:

He will not tell me which cache blocks mine, nor where there are free areas. In my opinion this is less than helpful. I just wan't to give back to the community by placing caches, but I can't travel back and forth endlessly to try to find an available spot in the area. In my opinion geocaching.com should tell you during the submission process if coordinates are not available.

So, suppose I tell you that your proposed location is 110m northwest of the final coordinates for "Cacher Conundrum," a five-star puzzle cache that only four people have ever solved and logged in the past three years.  Armed with that intelligence, you track down the container and sign the log at the same time when you move your cache to a spot that's 162m away.

 

What do I get for being helpful?  A flaming email from the CO of "Cacher Conundrum," who also posts to three Facebook groups, and files a complaint with Geocaching HQ that I gave away secret information and ruined the puzzle cache.  Having had that happen to us enough times, reviewers nowadays are constrained to be less forthcoming with details.  Depending on your reviewer, you may get a hint, like "you are less than 161m from "Cacher Conundrum," GCABCDE, or you may get a hint that you should strongly consider moving to the southeast, or you may not get any guidance at all.  So, that's how come.

 

Quote

In my opinion geocaching.com should tell you during the submission process if coordinates are not available.

In a world where people hack lab caches and share the final coordinates of puzzle caches in Facebook groups, the inevitable outcome of such a feature would be to spoil every puzzle cache, multicache and Wherigo cache, plus a fair percentage of letterbox hybrid caches.  There are people who like placing and finding these cache types.  Geocaching.com has chosen not to alienate them by ruining the ability to keep the actual locations a secret.

 

"But all I need is a distance and direction," you might say.  So, the cheater simply enters enough coordinates into the planner tool to permit them to hone in on the actual location through triangulation.  Think that can't happen?  Talk to the travel bug stalkers who watch for drops of trackables in unpublished caches so they can figure out the locations and log a pre-publication "FTF."  Talk to the group of cachers who hid traditionals in every conceivable spot within two miles of a 5-star puzzle, knowing they'd eventually "battleship" their way to a hit, and then they could do a scorched earth hunt within that area.  I foiled them by publishing their cache even though it was 200 feet away from the puzzle final.  Reviewers are smart humans*, you see, and that is better than an automated system.

 

*Many reviewers are dogs.

 

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6 minutes ago, P4nD0r4 said:

This literally just happened to me this morning and I'm angry.

 

You've been around long enough to remember when we did things for ourselves (and I had a profile, not a "dashboard"...).   :)

IIRC, it's always been the message to " Solve nearby geocaches, including Mystery and Multi-Caches, to discover hidden stages. 

If you see a Mystery Cache with posted (bogus) coordinates within 2 miles of your proposed location, its final stage may be nearby. ", as shown here.

No offense, but I don't understand why you'd be angry knowing that, unless you just forgot...  

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

I thought you supported easy lunch break hides, easy park and grabs that don't involve going into the woods. You said they deserve love too.

It's not EASY if you have to solve a puzzle to find it.

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2 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

It takes 2 minutes everywhere. You type "coordinate check" in the title, enter the coordinates, and submit. That's all it takes: 2 minutes to ask a reviewer about a location.

2 mins to "ask" not to get an answer back, than can take up to a week EACH time.

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On 9/20/2020 at 5:34 AM, Cali9-1-1 said:

There has got to be an easier way to get around this block. Does anyone know a simple solution that does not involved having to solve and update any coordinates?

Can you find another player in your community who has found/solved most of the caches, and ask them where there are vacant spots?

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34 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

You've been around long enough to remember when we did things for ourselves (and I had a profile, not a "dashboard"...).   :)

IIRC, it's always been the message to " Solve nearby geocaches, including Mystery and Multi-Caches, to discover hidden stages. 

If you see a Mystery Cache with posted (bogus) coordinates within 2 miles of your proposed location, its final stage may be nearby. ", as shown here.

No offense, but I don't understand why you'd be angry knowing that, unless you just forgot...  

I was going by the cache planning guide when I was hiding which showed my cache placement not anywhere near red circles and totally agree with the OP that it's frustrating to not know until you get a reviewer note saying otherwise. In my case it didn't tell me how many feet I was away from the physical Mystery container. But looking at the map now I can see why the area is totally barren of caches. And that's a bad thing because there are many cool things to see there that one wouldn't really know about until they solved this 5 difficulty mystery puzzle. A traditional cache allowing for many visits from cachers traveling through and getting a smiley > a mystery cache found once every 2 years  is how my brain works. I don't understand why it has to be 2 miles....imo seems like a bit much.  I never thought of these things until now. So now I gotta go retrieve the container and I'm gonna try to find the mystery cache without solving it since now I have an idea of where it is.  

Edited by P4nD0r4
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2 minutes ago, barefootguru said:

Can you find another player in your community who has found/solved most of the caches, and ask them where there are vacant spots?

I tried that on like 3 hides. Seemed to annoy them so I quit bothering. I have managed to solve quite a few , but i don't enjoy it at all. Now I only solve any if I am very very very set on a particular location like when I solved the entire geoart mystery series at the Chattanooga airport just to be able to hide a cache at my Sunday night Poker Game location.

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5 minutes ago, P4nD0r4 said:

A traditional cache allowing for many visits from cachers traveling through and getting a smiley > a mystery cache found once every 2 years  is how my brain works.

THIS is so valid. When there are too many mystery's in one area blocking any traditionals it blocks bringing traditional cache hunters into a potentially really cool area or experience. A traditional only hunter looks at the map and sees nothing at all and therefore goes somewhere else. I plan entire trips with hotel stays around geocaching, if I see a city void of traditional caches they just missed out on a tourist & a hotel fee.

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2 minutes ago, P4nD0r4 said:

 In my case it didn't tell me how many feet I was away from the physical Mystery container.

But looking at the map now I can see why the area is totally barren of caches.

And that's a bad thing because there are many cool things to see there that one wouldn't really know about until they solved this 5 difficulty mystery puzzle.

 

A traditional cache allowing for many visits from cachers traveling through and getting a smiley > a mystery cache found once every 2 years  is how my brain works. I don't understand why it has to be 2 miles.

I never thought of these things until now. So now I gotta go retrieve the container and I'm gonna try to find the mystery cache without solving it since now I have an idea of where it is.  

 

Most "better" caches here are some puzzles, but mostly multis.  A good thing, as dyslexic old farts like me aren't so hot at puzzles.  ;)

Those multis often take you to every cool thing to see with each stage in that area.  The only difference is there's one smiley.    

Traditionals would cover those same spots, so really the only people we know that are upset are those all about the smiley.   ;)

 

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1 minute ago, cerberus1 said:

Traditionals would cover those same spots

 

I love multi-caches that take you on a walking tour of several nearby points of interest. But often, traditionals cannot take you to the same spots. Traditional caches at those same spots would conflict with each other (according to the saturation guideline), where stages of a single multi-cache don't conflict with each other.

 

And virtual stages of multi-caches don't conflict with other caches in the area. I've found multiple multi-caches in the same downtown area, where each one featured different aspects of the downtown via virtual stages. There's no way traditional caches could have featured all the same spots without conflicting with each other.

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3 hours ago, Cali9-1-1 said:

So basically everyone is saying "Cheaters" is why we can't have nice things? I still don't see the value in cheating.

 

 

Bingo!

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4 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 

You might if you only used a Mac.  

 

 

So, because an optional tool isn't available on the platform you choose to use, you get angry/upset/irked/whatever because you can't use it?  Does not make sense.  There are ways to use that tool, if you really want too - change platforms, buy a inexpensive computer to just run GASK (heck I have an old laptop or two that runs GSAK but for other reasons I replaced, come and get one), or run it with an emulator.  But I guess it's easier to get upset and complain about something under your control (the choice is your's) then dealing with it.  Kind of like this thread - "it's not easy for me, so change it!"

 

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2 minutes ago, The Jester said:

So, because an optional tool isn't available on the platform you choose to use, you get angry/upset/irked/whatever because you can't use it?  Does not make sense.  There are ways to use that tool, if you really want too - change platforms, buy a inexpensive computer to just run GASK (heck I have an old laptop or two that runs GSAK but for other reasons I replaced, come and get one), or run it with an emulator.  But I guess it's easier to get upset and complain about something under your control (the choice is your's) then dealing with it.  Kind of like this thread - "it's not easy for me, so change it!"

 

That's quite a reach you've got there.   Where do you get that I'm angry, irked, upset  because it doesn't run on a mac?  I just point out to those that frequently suggest GSAK as the solution for anything geocaching related, that it's not an easy solution for those that don't use a windows PC.   I do have access to a PC whenever I need it but it's not my primary computer and have used GSAK for many years.  You're suggestion that I'm angry or upset about GSAK is a classic example of the appeal to motive logical fallacy.  Whether or not someone is angry or upset about not being able to easily use GSAK doesn't change the fact the it's a windows application that requires jumping through hoops to even function on a Mac.

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35 minutes ago, The Jester said:

So, because an optional tool isn't available on the platform you choose to use, you get angry/upset/irked/whatever because you can't use it?  Does not make sense.  There are ways to use that tool, if you really want too - change platforms, buy a inexpensive computer to just run GASK (heck I have an old laptop or two that runs GSAK but for other reasons I replaced, come and get one), or run it with an emulator.  But I guess it's easier to get upset and complain about something under your control (the choice is your's) then dealing with it.  Kind of like this thread - "it's not easy for me, so change it!"

 

 

Since I started this side thread on GSAK I'll chime in here. Yes I'm a Mac user and I do not have a hatred of GSAK more of an ambivalence as I could get it to work should I choose but I choose not to. My only complaint is that GSAK gets the nod as the solution to a lot of the problems people bring up, which is great, but which also means that the service I choose to pay for could be enhanced to provide a better overall solution for everyone not just GSAK users.

 

Then there is such pushback from the active folks here to any change in the status quo. You have three people on this thread complaining about the same activity.

 

The solution is not solve all the puzzle caches and use GSAK to figure out where you can place a new cache. The purpose of this thread is an attempt to improve the activity and the platform we choose to participate in. I firmly believe that GS is choosing to not improve one aspect of this activity at the expense of another, they may choose to do something different in the future I hope so which is why I chimed in on this thread. I do not enjoy the current mechanism of finding a valid spot to place a cache.

 

Yes my current area is very much saturated with caches, not just traditional but all types. So some peoples argument is well then my area does not need any more. That is not really fair I do enjoy giving back and there are amazing places still out there even in a saturated area. They may not all be million dollar views or in tour books but that is what is great about this activity it takes you to place I would never have thought to go.  

 

So the ask is to continue to improve the app, improve the website and allow us all to continue to enjoy all aspects of this activity. And cheating should not be the reason to not do something. 

 

 

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