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wayfrog

Shop24 Machines

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We have only 11 waymarks in the Shop24 Machines category. Should we expand the category in some way? Please give me some ideas and feedback. Thanks.

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9 hours ago, wayfrog said:

We have only 11 waymarks in the Shop24 Machines category. Should we expand the category in some way? Please give me some ideas and feedback. Thanks.

Giant vending machines? 😁

Screenshot_20200919-100449.png

Edited by Max and 99

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We could expand to any kind of 24h machines where you can by pizzas, bread, vegetables.

We should exclude coffee, soda and sweets

A good idea is to read all submissions declined

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I knew some great large vending machines, some over 10 meters wide with over 500 articles and a complicated moving box system to fetch the articles behind the window. But they were a thing of the 1980s, I haven't seen any of them in the last 30 years. And the standard soft drink and snack vending machines in the size of a phone booth (remember them?) are ubiquitous here. Just our main railway station has about 30 of them. So, of course, size could be one of the requirements. But when is giant?

 

Some other larger, although maybe not giant, vending machines are becoming more and more prevalent here, the ones at farms where they directly sell their products, sometimes in large quantities. They are not so interesting anymore in my opinion.

 

And I have seen a couple of unusual, but small vending machines in the past, that are somewhat interesting. E.g. bicycle tubes and repair kits, fuses and lightbulbs in front of  a do-it-yourself and sports shop.

 

I personally don't really have a clear opinion on this category, it is not in my focus and probably will never be. Just some ideas to share.

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Automated convenience store: any vending machine that has at least such-and-such number of products available on site.  Perhaps the minimum number of products would be between 100 and 200 different items.

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I kinda like the Carvana idea. I may never see one in person, so seeing WMs of some would have to do.

 

It just occurred to me that I sound like the short sighted person who suggested, well over 100 years ago, that the patent office be closed because "Everything of value has already been invented." For all we know, in 5 years there could be a Carvana style vending machine in every town and village on the face of the earth, all vending various electric vehicles.

Keith

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I can't understand this category, one reviewer didn't submit me there because said that isn't 24h machine.

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IMG_20200929_170008.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ariberna said:

I can't understand this category, one reviewer didn't submit me there because said that isn't 24h machine.

 

 

This thread was about expanding the category. This has not happened yet, if ever.

 

Your pictures do not show a Shop24 machine, just a herd (pack?, swarm?) of normal everyday vending machines.

 

So this location does not qualify for the category as it is now, and  I doubt it would qualify for a potential expanded version in the future.

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6 hours ago, Ariberna said:

I can't understand this category, one reviewer didn't submit me there because said that isn't 24h machine.

This may be a translation issue.

If I understand correctly, 24 hour machines are not the same as Shop24 machines.

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Then I can't understand this category, because in Spain there are places in where are this machines 24 h (the letter put Para e pilla and 24 h)

 

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Shop24 was the name of a brand. A registered trademark of a company that installed these machines.

Apparently, that company does not exist anymore, so the category needs a change, the sooner, the better. But as of now, just 24 hours access is not enough.

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2 hours ago, Ariberna said:

Then I can't understand this category, because in Spain there are places in where are this machines 24 h (the letter put Para e pilla and 24 h)

 

 

Where's razalas when we need him??

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Ok, thanks Scroogiell. I understand that is other cathegory that is extint or for a concret place, similar to dartmoor granite or others only for USA (Carnegie libraries, libraries,) etc

We may be update us...

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I think that this category could be shops of 24h and place of machines 24h. Is my idea.

Places with more of 100 products, one machinbe of can or coffe, no.

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6 minutes ago, Ariberna said:

I think that this category could be shops of 24h and place of machines 24h. Is my idea.

Places with more of 100 products, one machinbe of can or coffe, no.

I'm not opposed to expanding the category. But what you describe seems like an over prevalent thing where I live. 

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May be, but here is prevalent on university cities.

Prevalent there are a lot of cathegories: places for recycling, churches...

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I just read of a vending machine at a flower shop where you could get flowers during non normal hours. I don't think this would apply to the category however.

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On 10/17/2020 at 9:03 PM, ScroogieII said:

 

Where's razalas when we need him??


Why would you need Razalas in this context? Just asking.....

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Now I am also confused... I am totally and hopeless lost. What is this category about and what is the criteria for approval? I thought it was about the concept of an automated shop available 24 hours a day. As I read this topic and went to have a better look. It seemed it was about a specific chain after all. But then, the last approved WM doesn't look like connected to such chain. 

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I agree that the Carvana idea could be a good possibility. Maybe, renaming the category to: Unique Vending Machines. Vending machines that appear permanent and out of the ordinary. I know of only one Carvana vending machine near me so this may be a good way to include this into this category. Just a thought.

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I remember a fledgling Waymarker about 10 years ago who had an idea for a category for self standing ice and water vending machines.  He wrote it up, didn't put it up for comment in Forums and was thrashed by the masses when he submitted it to peer review.  Even one of his officers voted against it.  But I digress...

 

 

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On 10/20/2020 at 5:22 PM, Torgut said:


Why would you need Razalas in this context? Just asking.....

 

He's a Spanish speaker, just thought he could help with translations.

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6 hours ago, ScroogieII said:

 

He's a Spanish speaker, just thought he could help with translations.

 

 

No, he is not a Spanish speaker. We are both Portuguese :-) I mean, he might be able to speak Spanish, that I don't know, but not as a native speaker. "Para" and "Pilla" are not obvious words for us, sometimes we share the same words, but it's not the case. I mean, "para" can be translated as "to". As in "to eat" or in "from here to there". But as I don't know "pilla" I can't understand the context.

 

Back to Razalas, apparently he's not so active in the forums but definitely he is awaken: he approved one of my waymarks yesterday.

Edited by Torgut

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Yeah, I knew Pedro was Portuguese (after all, his handle says it all), but I had the impression that he was fluent in Spanish. I could well have been wrong.

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I Can't understand.

is a brand, but some shop into this cathegory hasn't the photos shop24 and the web not found...

I think that could be opened to shops and machines 24h

One cathegory from 2006 with only 11 WM and less possibilities haven't logic.

Edited by Ariberna

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4 minutes ago, Ariberna said:

I Can't understand.

is a brand, but some shop into this cathegory hasn't the photos shop24 and the web not found...

I think that could be opened to shops and machines 24h

One cathegory from 2006 with only 11 WM and less possibilities haven't logic.

There's probably a hundred within a three mile radius of my home.

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16 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

There's probably a hundred within a three mile radius of my home.

I think we let this category just go away.  This is one of those original niche categories that probably weren't a good idea in the first place and wouldn't have passed peer review today.
A category of 24hour vending machine places would be too broad, too generic, and too boring.  Things like Carvanas are going to be way too rare and too regional.

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3 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

What exactly do you mean by "let this category just go away"? Delete it? Leave it as it is?

 

Leave it and forget it like has been done with Yellow Arrows.  We are NOTgoing to delete old waymarks.  EVER!!!!!!!

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53 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

No need to shout. I was just asking.

Sorry, It's a very sore point right now.  
I phrased it badly, but deleting waymarks, even 11 old ones, should never come into the conversation or into thought.  It's too bad that it even has become a topic of conversation...
That bold really wasn't directed towards you.

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Most of us will have that hole in our grid forever.  Nevertheless, those waymarkers who were lucky enough to visit or to create a waymark in that rare category should feel confident that approved waymarks in that category will never be threatened with being denied.

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What do you think if we just rename it to curious vending machines. The category description has to be very clear, that the officers will decide if the vending machine has a 'wow' effect or not. E. g. Live crabs, umbrellas, mashed potato, dog wigs just to name a few. Shop24 machines will be still accepted. Or we just keep it as it is.

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48 minutes ago, wayfrog said:

The category description has to be very clear, that the officers will decide if the vending machine has a 'wow' effect or not.

I'm not a fan of that criteria for a category. 

However you got me thinking that could be like the photo goals category, we're every waymark submission is put to vote. 

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In 2012 I had the idea for "Unusual vending machines" and I was not the first one. It turned out that a criteria like "unusual" or "has a 'wow' effect" are too subjective. In my humble opinion there are 3 possibilities:

 

1. Leave the category as it is. This is the worst possibility, that will keep the 11 waymarks with no chance to add anything.

2. Severly change the criteria for the category to something slightly familiar with the current 11 waymarks. -> "Unusual" vending machines, that may only offer a very limited variety of goods. This might become an interesting category, but it is difficult to find criteria that are as objective as possible.

3. Remove the brand "Shop24" and otherwise keep as much of the current criteria as possible. This might be similar vending machines that offer many different everyday goods like "Shop24", but have a different brand. "Boring", but would be as close to the initial idea as possible.

 

My first choice was possibility 2. If we see, that it is impossible to find a good category description for that option, I would choose #3.

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4 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

In 2012 I had the idea for "Unusual vending machines" and I was not the first one. It turned out that a criteria like "unusual" or "has a 'wow' effect" are too subjective. In my humble opinion there are 3 possibilities:

 

1. Leave the category as it is. This is the worst possibility, that will keep the 11 waymarks with no chance to add anything.

2. Severly change the criteria for the category to something slightly familiar with the current 11 waymarks. -> "Unusual" vending machines, that may only offer a very limited variety of goods. This might become an interesting category, but it is difficult to find criteria that are as objective as possible.

3. Remove the brand "Shop24" and otherwise keep as much of the current criteria as possible. This might be similar vending machines that offer many different everyday goods like "Shop24", but have a different brand. "Boring", but would be as close to the initial idea as possible.

 

My first choice was possibility 2. If we see, that it is impossible to find a good category description for that option, I would choose #3.

Question then - there is another category like Shop24 for Yellow Arrows that the website for the Yellow Arrows is now defunct.  No one is screaming about it - no one want to change it.  No one can add waymarks to it. 
The problem with "unusual" vending machines is that the term is subjective.  What I think is an unusual vending machine, someone else may not.  All I can see is a huge can of worms being opened with more and more common vending machines being accepted until the agreed option 2 becomes option 3.  No, I completely disagree with your assessment, option 1 is the best option in this case because of the above, and if you really want to try to have an unusual vending machine category, create a new category and put it up for a vote thru peer review.  It really isn't necessary to fill the grid...

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Well, fortunately we both live in countries that allow our opinion to be heard. ^_^

 

The difference between the "Shop24 Machines" category and the "Yellow Arrow Lookup" category is (for me), that I can't really think of a change to the "Yellow Arrow Lookup" category that keeps the original idea alive (but if somebody else does, I'm interested in a new discussion - same goes for other categories like "Kissmobile Sightings"), while I could imagine that a change to the "Shop24 Machines" categories name and description could make this category accessible again AND keep the "character" of the category.

 

"Unusual" is NOT the final term (see that I wrote that "unusual" is too subjective), and could also be "unique" (only one vending machine per country/state?), "rare", "huge", "out of place", "extraordinary", "curious", … English is not my mother tongue, so I used "unusual" just to say that we are not looking for usual vending machines, that sell usual goods.

 

We have agreed on (and made) changes of other categories. Some new leaders had a hard time to do it, because the changes were necessary, but at the same time the new leader didn't want to change the initial idea of the category. Same goes with the "Shop24 Machines" category. I think, at first we have to decide which of the three options are best. We now know that you prefer option #1. But most of the postings above say, that the category should be changed. Some want vending machines offering "unusual" (ooops, I wrote it again) goods, while others concentrate of the amount of goods. I think both groups agree, that the vending machine has to be available 24h, but apart from that I don't know whether the majority is preferring option #2 or #3.

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7 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:

I think both groups agree, that the vending machine has to be available 24h,

Why? Just because 24 is in the title of the category? 😁

Edited by Max and 99

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As long as categories cannot be archived - especially in the grid - defunct categories should be avoided in my opinion. This category has a chance to be changed and reactivated, so let's do it. Your solution #1 is the worst case.

 

But we have a couple of categories on the same level, where it is hard or maybe impossible to reactivate them. We need a solution for them as well, but this is probably for another thread.

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4 minutes ago, fi67 said:

As long as categories cannot be archived - especially in the grid - defunct categories should be avoided in my opinion. This category has a chance to be changed and reactivated, so let's do it. Your solution #1 is the worst case.

 

But we have a couple of categories on the same level, where it is hard or maybe impossible to reactivate them. We need a solution for them as well, but this is probably for another thread.

Here's the problem.  you only have a very small, very vocal minority that is on the forums.  When we change descriptions of categories, we don't change them so radically that the entire purpose of the category is destroyed.  This shop24 category is an old, un-peer reviewed category created by a Groundspeak lackey way back in 2006 when Waymarking was truly in its infancy.  We have different procedures now, (thank Goodness) and a peer review through the forums ain't one of them.  

I know why you don't want a new category peer reviewed - you know it will fail.  A new category will be either  have to be really subjective "acceptable" waymarks defined by officers where the objective of the category will change by the whim of the officer reviewing OR will to have to have every vending machine in the world waymarked.  There's no middle ground.  Now, please, I understand the want to get a really cool icon, but there is no way to get around my previous statement.  

#1, for you, is worst case because it leaves things status quo (as it should be).   You give no other arguments other than defunct categories should be avoided.  Why?  Because that icon is no longer available?  Unfortunately, this Shop24 category is EXACTLY why we have peer review in place now.  I say leave it there as a testimony to why it is important to think during peer review and the creation of new categories.

 

 

2 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

Well, fortunately we both live in countries that allow our opinion to be heard. ^_^

 

The difference between the "Shop24 Machines" category and the "Yellow Arrow Lookup" category is (for me), that I can't really think of a change to the "Yellow Arrow Lookup" category that keeps the original idea alive (but if somebody else does, I'm interested in a new discussion - same goes for other categories like "Kissmobile Sightings"), while I could imagine that a change to the "Shop24 Machines" categories name and description could make this category accessible again AND keep the "character" of the category.

 

"Unusual" is NOT the final term (see that I wrote that "unusual" is too subjective), and could also be "unique" (only one vending machine per country/state?), "rare", "huge", "out of place", "extraordinary", "curious", … English is not my mother tongue, so I used "unusual" just to say that we are not looking for usual vending machines, that sell usual goods.

 

We have agreed on (and made) changes of other categories. Some new leaders had a hard time to do it, because the changes were necessary, but at the same time the new leader didn't want to change the initial idea of the category. Same goes with the "Shop24 Machines" category. I think, at first we have to decide which of the three options are best. We now know that you prefer option #1. But most of the postings above say, that the category should be changed. Some want vending machines offering "unusual" (ooops, I wrote it again) goods, while others concentrate of the amount of goods. I think both groups agree, that the vending machine has to be available 24h, but apart from that I don't know whether the majority is preferring option #2 or #3.

Yes, I have done it myself - look at Victorian Era Architecture.  What I didn't do was to take the original Victorian Houses category (which was accepting Commercial properties before I took over) and make it a general architecture category covering all of the missing styles from all eras.  You see, this is in effect what you are doing.  You are taking a specific vending machine company (Shop24) and expanding WAY beyond anything that was originally intended - either an undefined unique or rare subject to an officer whim OR every vending machine known to man. You see the difference?  I have, with my Victorian Era Architecture category, a very precise category with specific requirements for posting.  There is no subjectivity involved by my officers and I haven't expanded the category beyond its original tenets.  It is a LOT different from the original category writeup with hardly any guidelines and the officers had to decide if this was truly Victorian.  That's how a rewrite works.  

As far as not knowing what the majority wants - you won't unless it is peer reviewed.  Funny how that works.  Lots of waymarkers don't get on the Forums, and you are going to get a false reading if you are just relying on the Forums to make decision like this.  .  

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You keep answering the question "Why should the status quo be changed?" for us. I can't answer that question for others, but for me: NO, the category doesn't need a change, because I want that icon. There's an icon for historical markers in every US state and lots of other icons that I won't ever have. So, that's (for me) not the reason. My reason is that the category wouldn't make it through peer review today, and my very first choice would be, what you absolutely do NOT want: Delete/archive the category. So, if a new category won't make it through peer review, what do we do with it? We change the category description until the category has a chance to do it. That's what we are trying with the "Shop24 Machines" category.

 

What about a new idea? What if we created a new category, include in the description, that this is not the description of a new category, but the changed description of the "Shop24 Machines" category. If we send this new category to peer review, every waymarker can either accept that the "Shop24 Machines" category is changed or say Nay to any change. If this category makes it through peer review, we delete it and change the "Shop24 Machines" category and if it fails, we keep it as it is. Maybe a silly idea and not doable, but an idea that I just had and wanted to share with you.

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On 11/24/2020 at 5:48 AM, wayfrog said:

What do you think if we just rename it to curious vending machines. The category description has to be very clear, that the officers will decide if the vending machine has a 'wow' effect or not. E. g. Live crabs, umbrellas, mashed potato, dog wigs just to name a few. Shop24 machines will be still accepted. Or we just keep it as it is.

 

That brings on the eternal problem of subjectivity in WM.

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6 minutes ago, Ariberna said:

Why don't expand this category to 24 h shops and machines?

Because an update to the category like that would be too mundane and too common.  It would violate one of the tenets of peer review.  

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7 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

You keep answering the question "Why should the status quo be changed?" for us. I can't answer that question for others, but for me: NO, the category doesn't need a change, because I want that icon. There's an icon for historical markers in every US state and lots of other icons that I won't ever have. So, that's (for me) not the reason. My reason is that the category wouldn't make it through peer review today, and my very first choice would be, what you absolutely do NOT want: Delete/archive the category. So, if a new category won't make it through peer review, what do we do with it? We change the category description until the category has a chance to do it. That's what we are trying with the "Shop24 Machines" category.

 

What about a new idea? What if we created a new category, include in the description, that this is not the description of a new category, but the changed description of the "Shop24 Machines" category. If we send this new category to peer review, every waymarker can either accept that the "Shop24 Machines" category is changed or say Nay to any change. If this category makes it through peer review, we delete it and change the "Shop24 Machines" category and if it fails, we keep it as it is. Maybe a silly idea and not doable, but an idea that I just had and wanted to share with you.

 I just want to make sure you are stating to delete the "new" category, and not the "old" category.  I would not be in favor of losing those old waymarks.
I would be in favor of putting any proposed changes to this category to a peer review vote.  

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2 hours ago, iconions said:

 I just want to make sure you are stating to delete the "new" category, and not the "old" category.  I would not be in favor of losing those old waymarks.
I would be in favor of putting any proposed changes to this category to a peer review vote.  

 

Yes, the only reason for creating this "virtual" category would be to send it to peer review. This way we could everybody tell, what changes we would make to the "Shop24 Machines" category. If the users want, that the "Shop24 Machines" category stays at the current state with 11 waymarks and no chance to ever find additional waymarks, they just vote "Nay", and if they want to change the "Shop24 Machines" category to something new (option #2 or #3), then they vote yes. In case the "virtual" category would pass peer review, we would delete the "virtual" category and change the existing "Shop24 Machines" category. I still don't know, if this is doable. I can't remember that this ever been done. What I definitely don't want is to delete the "Shop24 Machines" category (and the 11 waymarks) and replace it with a new category. Sooooo, what do the rest of you think? Is something like that doable? Is there any rule against it? Do you think that it is too much effort for just one category or a good example for other, similar categories?

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Color me confused (which is often correct) but why is there even a discussion about changing the category definition?

 

To my simple way of looking at things, just leave the current one alone, and propose a new category for whatever 24 hour vending machine that is an exception to the Shop24 Machine category.

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I love how we all have different perspectives on Waymarking.  I would vote for the status quo for this old category.  No, I don't have the icon. I would like to cast a vote in a virtual peer review.  What an interesting concept.

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On 11/24/2020 at 5:59 PM, PISA-caching said:

...same goes for other categories like "Kissmobile Sightings"...

 

I open a new thread for "Kissmobile Sightings'. Virtual Peer Review sounds good. I will think about it, could be a good way to bring category edits to all waymarkers.

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15 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

 

Yes, the only reason for creating this "virtual" category would be to send it to peer review. This way we could everybody tell, what changes we would make to the "Shop24 Machines" category. If the users want, that the "Shop24 Machines" category stays at the current state with 11 waymarks and no chance to ever find additional waymarks, they just vote "Nay", and if they want to change the "Shop24 Machines" category to something new (option #2 or #3), then they vote yes. In case the "virtual" category would pass peer review, we would delete the "virtual" category and change the existing "Shop24 Machines" category. I still don't know, if this is doable. I can't remember that this ever been done. What I definitely don't want is to delete the "Shop24 Machines" category (and the 11 waymarks) and replace it with a new category. Sooooo, what do the rest of you think? Is something like that doable? Is there any rule against it? Do you think that it is too much effort for just one category or a good example for other, similar categories?

 

I like the idea. We just need someone who writes the virtual category and we have to think about the options we offer. I like option 2 (very unique ones and maybe super large ones about 200 items), I see no problem to combine these two criterias as long as the description state it clear.

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