Shop24 Machines

[+elyob]

What do we do if the vote in the virtual peer review is as close as a certain recent real world vote?

[+PISA-caching]

3 hours ago, lumbricus said:

 

I like the idea. We just need someone who writes the virtual category and we have to think about the options we offer. I like option 2 (very unique ones and maybe super large ones about 200 items), I see no problem to combine these two criterias as long as the description state it clear.

 

In general I see no problem either, but the more vending machines we allow, that have little to nothing to do with the original Shop24 machines, the more "Nay"s we will get.

[+fi67]

I am not a friend of commercial categories, you know that, but even less I like the decay scent of defunct categories. So I am in favor of Option #2.

 

@elyob Don't forget, we have a 66% quorum in Peer Review.

[+Alfouine]

I am in favor of both options, i saw vending machines selling only patatoes or fresh cooked pizza

[+iconions]

21 hours ago, elyob said:

I love how we all have different perspectives on Waymarking.  I would vote for the status quo for this old category.  No, I don't have the icon. I would like to cast a vote in a virtual peer review.  What an interesting concept.

That would be my preferred method of operations, also, BUT, I would also rather the Waymarking community have a say to what gets changed on a complete category change such as this than three officers taking it upon themselves to do it without input from the rest of us in the peanut gallery. 

[+PISA-caching]

15 hours ago, fi67 said:

I am not a friend of commercial categories, you know that, but even less I like the decay scent of defunct categories. So I am in favor of Option #2.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. We have lots of commercial categories and usually they are a "one-waymark-and-go" thing for me. An exception would be if f.e. one branch of McDonalds stands out of the mass of McDonalds restaurants, because of this and that (the very first McDonalds restaurant ever or the only McDonalds restaurant that...), but for those rare occations we have other categories, like the Superlatives category or "First of its kind" category etc.

 

It's difficult to explain to a new waymarker why they exist and why a similar new category has no chance to pass the peer review. But even harder to explain is the existance of a category with a few waymarks, that in the real world don't exist anymore (how many of the Shop24 machines are still there, if any?) with no chance to add existing (and maybe useful to one or the other) waymarks.

[+Ariberna]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:10 PM, iconions said:

Because an update to the category like that would be too mundane and too common.  It would violate one of the tenets of peer review.  

 

I still do not see mundane passing it to 24-hour machines (with more than a hundred items) it is not worth the soda or condoms. The reason is that here there are not so many 24-hour zones and more than 100 items, and more mundane than places to recycle... I would also put the 24 hour stores. Good for the vote.

My respects to place for recycling that I have many published WMs.

[+iconions]

3 hours ago, Ariberna said:

 

I still do not see mundane passing it to 24-hour machines (with more than a hundred items) it is not worth the soda or condoms. The reason is that here there are not so many 24-hour zones and more than 100 items, and more mundane than places to recycle... I would also put the 24 hour stores. Good for the vote.

My respects to place for recycling that I have many published WMs.

You haven't been to many rest areas in the U.S. - many of them have walls or small buildings of vending machines that aren't sodas, available 24 hours a day.  Even a single machine could have spots for over 100 different items..  Look at YouTube and the Japanese fascination with vending machines - these usually are in groups and sell all sorts of things - these are basically on every street corner in Tokyo and other large cities.   This is the same with other cities in Asia.  One has to research before making blanket statements. 

[+THE DAM TROLLS]

As much as we may hate to do this, since the company has been out of business for a few years, I would leave the category alone to preserve the historic nature of the Shop24 brand. 

If another category needs to be setup, make it a separate one.

[+Torgut]

On 11/28/2020 at 1:03 PM, Ariberna said:

 

I still do not see mundane passing it to 24-hour machines (with more than a hundred items) it is not worth the soda or condoms. The reason is that here there are not so many 24-hour zones and more than 100 items, and more mundane than places to recycle... I would also put the 24 hour stores. Good for the vote.

My respects to place for recycling that I have many published WMs.

 

Amen. Fully agreed. Let the category respect the semantics and be about 24 hours shop machines. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if there are many rest areas in the USA with such 24 hours shop machines. They are 24 hours shop machines. And no, they are not in every corner of Tokyo. There are plenty in Tokyo. As there are plenty of other things with their own categories, like You Are Here Maps. I thought prevalence was the criteria in the game. Not the opposite. 

[+PISA-caching]

Well, the initial question was: "Why don't expand this category to 24 h shops and machines?"

 

Maybe a language problem, but "shops and machines" would include every 24h shop out there. There might be not that many in my hometown, but plenty of them in the USA and other parts of the world. And, to keep the idea of the category intact as much as possible, we should limit it to "machines". So, just to clarify: If at all, the waymarks should be limited to "vending machines", not shops.

 

And I agree that there might be a group of vending machines from different companies, selling different products in the same place. It would be simple to include those, but I wouldn't do it. The goal of this change (for me) is not to have another category with lots of waymarks, but carefully reactivating it and at the same time keep the "character" of the category as much as possible. And the idea was to show ONE machine, that sells many products. Just like we shouldn't include ANY advertising car in the Kissmobile Sightings category.

 

Edited to add: I remember that once we had a similar machine at Karlsplatz (a popular place in Vienna, close to the Karlskirche and the Opera, where 3 metro lines, several tram lines etc. meet). It was one big machine and sold all kinds of products (from beverages to washing powder - if I recall correctly) and was a sensation back then. According to my research it was a "Shop24" machine (not sure that this true), but I wasn't Waymarking at that time and the machine was removed some years later (before the end of Shop24). One of the reasons was maybe, because you find many of these products at the shops of bigger gas stations. Not always 24h, but the need for these products at times, where the gas stations are closed, was maybe not big enough. Anyway, it's machines like these that I would like to see, not groups of several vending machines that sell 100+ products, if you sum up all of them.

Edited December 4, 2020 by PISA-caching

[+lumbricus]

3 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

...The goal of this change (for me) is not to have another category with lots of waymarks, but carefully reactivating it and at the same time keep the "character" of the category as much as possible. And the idea was to show ONE machine, that sells many products...

 

I created a group to bring it in a virtual peer review. "Shop24 Machines" Group Details (Waymarking.com) Let's vote to open it to 'Giant Vending Machines' with more than XXX items. @THE DAM TROLLS if the majority votes for the change Groundspeak will do the edit to the existing category.

[+iconions]

5 hours ago, lumbricus said:

 

I created a group to bring it in a virtual peer review. "Shop24 Machines" Group Details (Waymarking.com) Let's vote to open it to 'Giant Vending Machines' with more than XXX items. @THE DAM TROLLS if the majority votes for the change Groundspeak will do the edit to the existing category.

Well, I just got contacted that another group is planning to try to start a marijuana vending machine category.  Ahh, the preverbal can of worms we have opened up with this Shop24 category.  Cool, we can have eleventy-seven thousand different categories of vending machines - can't wait!

Just for the record, Carvana has 40 car vending machines in the US currently.  I'm interested to see exactly how this category will be written up.

[+PISA-caching]

I would like to add that the vending machines should (for me) also sell a similar product range like the Shop24 machines. As far as I know they sold products, that you usually buy in a supermarket. Food, beverages, cleaning products etc., not cars. As far as I understand it, the Carvana towers include just around 30 cars. Cars have nothing to do with the product range of the former Shop24 machines. So, for me, the Carvana towers would not qualify for the new version of the Shop24 Machines category. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that most of the waymarkers prefer my option #3 (see https://forums.geocaching.com/GC/index.php?/topic/358577-shop24-machines/&do=findComment&comment=5865581). That's why I think, that this has the best chances of passing the peer review.

 

And iconions, I'm very sure that you now understand, that we plan to change an existing category (carefully) and that this has absolutely no effect for new categories like marijuana vending machines and that we will NOT "have eleventy-seven thousand different categories of vending machines". You stated several times, that you wouldn't change the category and why you think so. I said that we should do what the majority thinks. You said, that only a minority of the waymarkers read the forums and then I had the idea of using the peer review to see what the majority of the waymarkers think. Fortunately, this is possible and Groundspeak agreed to change it, if the change passes the peer review. And now it's time to find a description, where the majority of the waymarkers say "Yes, this will keep the character of the category, the existing 11 waymarks will still fit into it and maybe I have at least a chance to post or visit one of these waymarks. I vote Yea." and we need constructive contributions/proposals/... for the changes.

 

[+Ariberna]

I'm agree with extend this cathegory and not create other little or no practical.

We have a lot of cathegories that had problems for were posted in the world.

[+PISA-caching]

Here are examples of the 'descendants' of the Shop24 machines, that I think of:

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by PISA-caching

[+pmaupin]

Very good examples

[+iconions]

At what point are you all going to quit beating this dead horse and putting this up for a vote?  I'm ready just to move on from this one way or the other.  
I can't wait for the stream of other vending machine categories to flood peer review - it's going to be so exciting!

[+PISA-caching]

12 hours ago, iconions said:

... I can't wait for the stream of other vending machine categories to flood peer review...

 

Just because you keep repeating that, doesn't mean that it is going to happen.

 

Instead, I would really want to know what the founder of the Shop24 Machines category thinks. We will change the existing category very carefully, keeping the size and the product range of the vending machines and just remove the brand Shop24 from the title, because there are other, very similar vending machines. Instead of just containing 11 waymarks of machines, that are (partly?) not there anymore, the changed category will also contain a few other, new waymarks for similar vending machines. If I were the founder of the Shop24 Machines category, I would not see, why other vending machines of a similar size and product range should NOT be added to that category.

[+iconions]

8 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

 

Just because you keep repeating that, doesn't mean that it is going to happen.

 

Instead, I would really want to know what the founder of the Shop24 Machines category thinks. We will change the existing category very carefully, keeping the size and the product range of the vending machines and just remove the brand Shop24 from the title, because there are other, very similar vending machines. Instead of just containing 11 waymarks of machines, that are (partly?) not there anymore, the changed category will also contain a few other, new waymarks for similar vending machines. If I were the founder of the Shop24 Machines category, I would not see, why other vending machines of a similar size and product range should NOT be added to that category.

Interesting statement about wanting to hear from the founder - there is ONE active officer in the category and he posted his opinion in this thread and you IGNORED it!!!!!  There are LOTS of founding members of categories not active - not unusual.

So much for your statement above.  You all are just hell bent for leather on this changing of this category and it is obvious you absolutely don't care of the feelings of the current officer.  Are there other categories you are planning to take over like this?  Active ones maybe?

Question, was there any thought to adding "The Dam Trolls" as an officer to this new group, or were you all just going to stage a coup?  The right thing to do, obviously, is to make him the owner, but obviously that isn't going to happen since you ignored his advice.  This whole process stinks, especially as it appears you are kicking out a perfectly valid officer for no reason.

You all just need to start completely over with a new category. 

[wayfrog]

Closed now. " @THE DAM TROLLS if the majority votes for the change Groundspeak will do the edit to the existing category."  -> was posted December 4. We will see what the majority votes for and if the change/edit will come, THE DAM TROLLS can choose if he/she wants to stay as an officer or not.

[wayfrog]

Result: Total votes: 34, yeas: 24, nays: 10, abstains: 3, percent: 70.5%