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BenRed06

your thoughts on premium only caches

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hey everyone!

what are your opinions on premium only caches?

 

i for one am oposed to them. all my hides are public and will be as long as i live. 

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It's precisely that... a personal option for owners.

Being "opposed" to what others decide about their caches (and the time and resources spent)... seems to me a bit extreme.

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Saw you're still kinda new, so curious why you're asking, since you've done a couple the past few months.   Thanks.    :)

I haven't done a pmo cache in years, after being harassed by micro-managing, anal-retentive owners concerned with what I was up to.

Things are better now that that invasive audit went bye-bye,  so now I guess it's just habit (just used to not doing them).

If they were caches far n above the average in most areas we've cached in (we did enough mediocre pmo caches in guardrails n such), that we weren't really missing them anyway...

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The good thing about geocaching is that you can play any way you want.  You can make things premium only or not.  You can pay for premium or not.  You can use a smartphone or a GPS receiver.  You can find lots of lamp post and guard rail caches or you can spend all your time out in the woods.  You can avoid mysteries or earth caches or adventure labs or whatever.  You can cache every day or you can go occasionally.  You can go by yourself or with friends.  You can invest in the geocaching community or just play without ever meeting anyone.

 

For smartphone users who aren't premium members, just having a cache above a certain D or T rating is the same as the cache being a premium only cache, so you may want to consider that when hiding your caches.

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19 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

For smartphone users who aren't premium members, just having a cache above a certain D or T rating is the same as the cache being a premium only cache, so you may want to consider that when hiding your caches.

 

Beat me to it.  :)     They' used to be called "advanced" last I looked.

Yep.  If using the official app (most just starting do here), anything over a D/T 2 can't be seen in the app.

 - And even if the OP's puzzle was 1.5/1.5, a basic member using the app can only view Traditionals and Events, as seen in the  Help Center.      

Edited by cerberus1

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3 hours ago, BenRed06 said:

hey everyone!

what are your opinions on premium only caches?

 

i for one am oposed to them. all my hides are public and will be as long as i live. 

 

PM was part of a plan for one of mine. It was a low D/T Regular ammo box, frequently muggled. So I changed it to PM so that it doesn't immediately show up when bored kids install The App on a whim (the cache at a soccer field). AND it was aggressively hidden so persons don't see it while wandering the woodded area. AND a “mystery cache” with stages, which keeps all traffic down, so the place doesn't look like elephants stampede the spot.

 

PM kept my cache viable, at least until cachers began to wax eloquent on the exact hide style in their logs. I'm not opposed to PM caches.

 

 

Edited by kunarion
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50 minutes ago, BenRed06 said:

i for one am oposed to them. all my hides are public and will be as long as i live. 

 

2 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Beat me too it.  :)     They' used to be called "advanced" last I looked.

Yep.  If using the official app (most just starting do here), anything over a D/T 2 can't be seen in the app.

 - And even if the OP's puzzle was 1.5/1.5, a basic member using the app can only view Traditionals and Events, as seen in the  Help Center.      

 

Great point cerebrus1, my answer was incomplete.

 

OP: your puzzle and around 8 of your caches will be unviewable to cachers using only the app who aren't premium members, per cerebrus1's comment above.  So if you want to make all your hides public you can only create Traditionals with a D and T rating 2 and under, and events.  

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13 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Yep.  If using the official app (most just starting do here), anything over a D/T 2 can't be seen in the app.

 - And even if the OP's puzzle was 1.5/1.5, a basic member using the app can only view Traditionals and Events, as seen in the  Help Center.      

 

That's cool and all, but The App seems to get tweaked once in a while.   I wouldn't rely on the App's D/T restrictions to hide the listing from persons who just now installed The App and who assume they're getting another Pokey-Man without reading how Geocaching works.  I might set it to PM just to be sure.  I have a ton of "free" caches, go find them first and then come back and ask about the 3 PMs I own (two of which I adopted as PMs)

 

I also rely on more experienced locals to decide.  When I mention that I'm planning to shut off "PM" for a cache, and they advise that I don't, then I don't.

 

 

Edited by kunarion

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59 minutes ago, BenRed06 said:

all my hides are public

Define public. This is what a non PM geocacher sees on the app. 

 

 

Screenshot_20200918-132404.png

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26 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Define public. This is what a non PM geocacher sees on the app. 

 

 

Screenshot_20200918-132404.png

 

Supposedly even a low D/T cache may become grayed-out after certain issues develop with it.  So "not PM" doesn't equal "displayed for free".

 

But those and even PMs can be found and logged for free.  Paying for Geocaching makes things more convenient, but that's the angle - payment provides benefits.  That business strategy is not a surprise to most people.  Anyway, as a Basic Member, I found and logged PM and other caches (I didn't have "an App"), often by caching with others.  The App may even assist, because you can show the map to caching friends who likely have the cache info.  Or save up for things you want.

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This is what a non PM member sees in your area on the app (it excludes PM caches and others that are above a specified D/T. The red circles are your caches.  So even though your caches are not PM, not everyone can see them on the app, because of the D/T rating. I'm only showing this to explain, that not all caches are visible by everyone (public), even if they are not listed as PM.

 

 

WV view non PM app.png

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All but two of my hides are non-PMO, but only one of those is a traditional with a D/T rating of 2 or less. It's in a bit of an out-of-the-way location, though, so is less likely to be bothered by the weekend/school holidays muggles-with-apps. The two that I changed to PMO some time after publication are:

  • GC8BXVN , a 2/4 multi, which had its first waypoint vandalised a week after it was published. That might have been a chance encounter with the evil forces of muggledom but, with the summer school holidays approaching, I switched it to PMO as a precaution and also moved the waypoint a bit further from the track. That was a year ago and so far so good.
  • GC7YP51, a 1.5/3 traditional, is a gadget cache of sorts, having light-operated special effects, and is located close to a popular walking trail. After the incident with the multi I switched it to PMO as an additional precaution, even though its terrain rating should provide some protection from muggles-with-apps, as it's the sort of thing vandals would have a field day with.

The problem I'm seeing now is that most of the here-today-gone-tomorrow newbies are starting off with premium membership before they even find their first cache, making me think there's a social media promotion going on somewhere that's giving away PM. Recently one of those, after pestering me for two weeks for more and more hints (which I provided), decided to use the cache as a urinal after logging their find.

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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

This is what a non PM member sees in your area on the app (it excludes PM caches and others that are above a specified D/T. The red circles are your caches.  So even though your caches are not PM, not everyone can see them on the app, because of the D/T rating. I'm only showing this to explain, that not all caches are visible by everyone (public), even if they are not listed as PM.

 

^ This.

 

I've sometimes considered making caches just for first-time App users.  But how to prevent such a cache from becoming unavailable to the App... that's the trick.  I've kind of settled on placing text on some of my more popular "new cacher" caches which suggest caches that may not be visible to the App.  This way, people who loaded "An App" begin to see a bigger picture... that there's an established web site to explore.  Maybe it's a start.  

 

 

Edited by kunarion

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13 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

The problem I'm seeing now is that most of the here-today-gone-tomorrow newbies are starting off with premium membership before they even find their first cache, making me think there's a social media promotion going on somewhere that's giving away PM. Recently one of those, after pestering me for two weeks for more and more hints (which I provided), decided to use the cache as a urinal after logging their find.

 

The App Stores allow paying and upgrading right there.  People arrive in the Forum all the time, having "signed up and paid" and PM isn't working.  It takes a couple of hours for a paid membership to propagate through the site, and these persons who found no caches haven't even waited the 2 hours yet.  Anyway, it seems like a lot of people have the idea that you pay up front.  That's not terrible, except it's not that they tried it out as Basic Members for a cache or three and they're ready to start the next level, they don't even know what "Geocaching" is.

 

The App stores may be pushing "pay for it" more enthusiastically than we expect.  Or, yeah, maybe they got a temporary paid membership somewhere, again without ever trying to find a cache until then.  And some people who get things handed to them, are not particularly responsible.  They've never needed to be. :ph34r:

Edited by kunarion
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I also saw someone on another site that was rather proud of themselves that they didn't carry a pen and they'd never signed a log, because for them it was all about the "treasure hunt".

 

No other information given, but that's the sort of person that seems to me like they'd happily pay a few dollars for Premium so that they can run around stealing TB's, trashing caches and leaving them open so the weather gets in and ruins the log. :( 

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6 hours ago, BenRed06 said:

what are your opinions on premium only caches?

Am I supposed to have an opinion on PMO caches? I never really pay attention to which caches are Premium Only and which one's are not. It makes no difference to me.

We make most of our hides premium only, but that's because they're caches I put time and effort into creating, and I don't exactly want people with one find to be attempting to find/solve them. It's not a foolproof method, but it helps.   

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7 hours ago, BenRed06 said:

i for one am oposed to them. all my hides are public and will be as long as i live. 

 

In our local area, we've had issues with non-premium caches being vandalized. Yes, vandalized - not muggled. The issue would come in waves but was always limited to non-premium caches so when I started placing caches I made them PMO on the advice of other local COs. There's just a small chance that with some experience you'll find there are good reasons for PMO caches. 

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9 hours ago, BenRed06 said:

hey everyone!

what are your opinions on premium only caches?

 

i for one am oposed to them. all my hides are public and will be as long as i live. 

It's a personal preference and you are free to choose. But I wonder if you will still feel the same way when you have been caching longer and you have a cache that is being continuously vandalised and/or stolen, and a way to reduce that happening is to make it Premium only. Will you still be willing to need to continuously go to the effort of visiting and replacing the cache, when the problem could be greatly reduced, or even solved, just by changing the cache to Premium only?

It also depends where the cache is hidden. A cache where the only visitors are likely to be other cachers might not need to be Premium only, but with an urban cache it might be the only way it has a hope of surviving.

Also some people go to a lot of trouble to make their cache, and it it's stolen it might be irreplaceable. Think a sculptured cache, or an electronic cache for instance. They will want to make it Premium only in the hope of it surviving.

9 hours ago, BenRed06 said:

all my hides are public and will be as long as i live.

That's a very strong statement and one most would I imagine have difficulty making. Things happen which can't be predicted. Ideas change with experience and knowledge.

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14 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The problem I'm seeing now is that most of the here-today-gone-tomorrow newbies are starting off with premium membership before they even find their first cache, making me think there's a social media promotion going on somewhere that's giving away PM. Recently one of those, after pestering me for two weeks for more and more hints (which I provided), decided to use the cache as a urinal after logging their find.

 

I think that's just the way that the internets has changed. Nowadays it seems to be more natural for people to need to sign up and pay a small subscription for stuff. I'm not sure that that was anywhere near as true 10-15 years ago. Maybe.

Edited by Blue Square Thing

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On 9/18/2020 at 1:12 PM, BenRed06 said:

what are your opinions on premium only caches?

 

A good question. We didn't use the premium only feature until some of our caches were muggled. We since suspected it was a basic member. No proof of course.   We left a few hides basic for basic members to find and to enjoy the sport, to motivate them. But the more expensive hides, we had to use the premium feature, sadly. If not for the fear of being muggled, I would have all my hides for everyone, including basic members. But let it be known...even premium members can be irresponsible when finding a premium cache.  So I guess it's all on the location of your hides (in a high muggle area, and expense), etc. 

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21 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The problem I'm seeing now is that most of the here-today-gone-tomorrow newbies are starting off with premium membership before they even find their first cache, making me think there's a social media promotion going on somewhere that's giving away PM.

 

We're finding the same,  a couple new folks here n there joining as pm.     :)

I felt maybe they didn't understand "premium", and even though I've asked a few times now, not sure if it's again wording in the app.

 - At one time "advanced" caches were called premium, and causing some confusion.

Basic members using the website for access to  "advanced" caches not easily found either.

 

But simply paying money doesn't make anyone more knowledgeable or responsible. 

While it's true we had issues with the Intro app (new folks not "getting it"), most our trashed caches were done by premium members.

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PS. Also important to note...many new to geocaching start out as basic members so we want to get them excited about the sport of geocaching. There are families geocaching together with their children who are so happy to find these caches. One family who found a few basic caches of ours and log how excited her children were, so we made a few caches basic so they could find them too, and then switched back to premium. 

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7 hours ago, Blue Square Thing said:

I think that's just the way that the internets has changed. Nowadays it seems to be more natural for people to need to sign up and pay a small subscription for stuff. I'm not sure that that was anywhere near as true 10-15 years ago. Maybe.

 

Thirty bucks yearly isn't a usual app cost.  If we only had the app, I'd do the "less than 2s" a while first.    ;)

Years ago a basic member didn't have most of the issues today, but they were using GPSrs through the website.  

 - Just couldn't do pmo without heading out with a pm.    :)

Anyone basic from years ago still knows how to go about that easily.  I still load caches manually.

But it's a real pain-in-the-can doing it with the app.  No "how to" access advanced caches as a basic member either. Guess that keeps it free.

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22 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The problem I'm seeing now is that most of the here-today-gone-tomorrow newbies are starting off with premium membership before they even find their first cache, making me think there's a social media promotion going on somewhere that's giving away PM.

 

We had a few geocache newbies starting out who are premium members and wondered why they became premiums members so quickly. Just wondering. We were happy with our basic membership until our son made us premium members and we learned of the extra benefits. 

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2 hours ago, HunterandSamuel said:

PS. Also important to note...many new to geocaching start out as basic members so we want to get them excited about the sport of geocaching. There are families geocaching together with their children who are so happy to find these caches. One family who found a few basic caches of ours and log how excited her children were, so we made a few caches basic so they could find them too, and then switched back to premium. 

 

It's a bit hard to tell whether the newbies now are excited about the sport of geocaching when they just leave logs like these:

 

image.png.9674377088340b3bdcf030a194f46eb6.png

 

I'm guessing they're just bored with the COVID restrictions and looking for something to mess with.

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3 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Thirty bucks yearly isn't a usual app cost.  If we only had the app, I'd do the "less than 2s" a while first.    ;)

 

Maybe - I'm not sure how it's worded or anything. I can't get the new app on my really ancient phone so I skip the problem essentially - it's very clear that an increasing number of people skip the basic membership though. I do think that's down to a cultural change of some kind and a different way of viewing the internets. But maybe I'm wrong - I don't know.

 

Quote

Anyone basic from years ago still knows how to go about that easily.  I still load caches manually.

 

I still write things down on a bit of paper and then enter coordinates manually if I need to! But I'm a dinosaur who prefers maps anyway, so it's fine by me.

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I very recently (like an hour ago) Changed about 70 of my previously Basic geocaches to Premium Only. I hated having to do it. I really wanted the most people possible to have fun making finds on my hides. And I know money is tight for many. I did keep as many Basic as I could (The more basic/cheaper container ones). But since the containers on the majority are more expensive or time consuming to create I couldn't have them continue to go missing after someone with a Basic membership and 2 finds got it. It kept happening. My caches never went missing after a Premium member found them. I did what I had to do to keep playing the game as a C.O. I do really wish I didn't have to though and I plan to hide more Basic caches to make up for it soon.

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None of my caches are Premium only. But most have worked out that way due to the D/T rating. There are lots of new players trying out the game and I prefer to make my caches available to beginners as others did for me when I was starting out. If I hadn't had a chance to find something other than LPCs or pill bottles next to telephone poles, I'm not sure I would have stuck with it. A sure way to discourage newbies (and many Premium members) is to create a Puzzle cache, and if you really want it to be found only rarely and by only the most serious cachers, require a short hike.

My recent Puzzle + short hike cache (GC8R87T) , a swag laden ammo box, has been found exactly once in the 4 months since it was published. But it does have a 100% Favourite rating. :)

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48 minutes ago, G0ldNugget said:

None of my caches are Premium only. But most have worked out that way due to the D/T rating. There are lots of new players trying out the game and I prefer to make my caches available to beginners as others did for me when I was starting out. If I hadn't had a chance to find something other than LPCs or pill bottles next to telephone poles, I'm not sure I would have stuck with it. A sure way to discourage newbies (and many Premium members) is to create a Puzzle cache, and if you really want it to be found only rarely and by only the most serious cachers, require a short hike.

My recent Puzzle + short hike cache (GC8R87T) , a swag laden ammo box, has been found exactly once in the 4 months since it was published. But it does have a 100% Favourite rating. :)

 

My segue into caching was from bushwalking and orienteering so I have a preference for bushland hides over urban ones and fortunately my region has a good mix of both. This is the spread of terrain ratings on the 18 new caches published around here this year:

 

image.png.f1b137e506afa57609f0fe3aa43eb8fc.png

Only two of those caches are PMO, a T1 and a T1.5, the rest are open to all comers but, as you say, the newbies generally only do the urban hides. Our lamp posts don't have covers on their bases so there are no LPCs and none of the low-terrain caches are pill bottles next to telephone poles or in shopping centre car parks, instead they're mostly in suburban parks and only four of the ten caches with terrain 2.5 or less are micros (none of the higher terrain ones are). The two terrain-5 caches are a tree climb and a kayak paddle which have had 17 and 4 finds respectively.

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I set some of my Earthcaches to PMO in an effort to avoid newbies who don't understand how they work.

 

However, since most of the geocaching apps essentially require a paid membership (unless you cache very little), I don't suppose it's as useful as it was in the days of the free app and no API.

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On 9/18/2020 at 1:12 PM, BenRed06 said:

hey everyone!

what are your opinions on premium only caches?

 

i for one am oposed to them. all my hides are public and will be as long as i live. 

 

That's great for you but as many have noted on here, there are various reasons for making a cache PMO.  For me, it boils down to cost of the cache.  The more expensive it costs me to place and maintain a cache, the more likely it is to be PMO.  I have a small series of caches that have bingo balls, scrabble tiles, dominoes, cards, and a 5 pound bag of dice, all of which lead to a final cache, should cachers wish to play the game I set out for each of the playing pieces.  All of them would be available to the public (lower D/T ratings that fall within what the free app would make visible), which means that the possibility that I'd have to continually replace the pieces would be high.  I've had to replace the pieces (or email the finders) once or twice times due to new premium members who didn't know any better so I can only guess as to the impact that this might have with everyone being able to access them.

 

I don't find them to be "better" caches, on average, than non-PMO caches, nor do I find them to be better maintained caches, again, on average, than non-PMO caches.  I don't even know what my ratio of PMO to non-PMO found caches is but I'd be surprised if it's more than 20%.

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14 hours ago, G0ldNugget said:

None of my caches are Premium only. But most have worked out that way due to the D/T rating.

There are lots of new players trying out the game and I prefer to make my caches available to beginners as others did for me when I was starting out. If I hadn't had a chance to find something other than LPCs or pill bottles next to telephone poles, I'm not sure I would have stuck with it. A sure way to discourage newbies (and many Premium members) is to create a Puzzle cache, and if you really want it to be found only rarely and by only the most serious cachers, require a short hike.

My recent Puzzle + short hike cache (GC8R87T) , a swag laden ammo box, has been found exactly once in the 4 months since it was published. But it does have a 100% Favourite rating. :)

Yep.  We never made a cache pmo.

Most we were concerned with were off the app due to D/T.  Most newbs here apparently used the official app. 

 - Guess that's the minimum for their one weekend n done cache trip...

But even our last remaining low D/T hide, we've realized that new people are learning, so we're a little more lax with them.

No where near as bad today though as having caches taken and replaced elsewhere during the old "Intro" app.    :)

 

One of my favorite caches was placed off a single track along an underground creek shallow enough to feel/see the water flowing.

 - We put a 50cal at the end, and stocked it full of cool stuff for all ages.  It had few visitors, though only 1 mile round-trip.

We had seven caches (all but one ammo cans) on a quiet 3/4 mile walk in the woods, and the last one in would be missing from many folk's logs.

 

 

Edited by cerberus1
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I've said this on another thread but all the premium caches in my area are just as unmaintained as regular caches. I had a good laugh last night looking at a spot I used to hike that got burned down in a wildfire in 2016. Majority of the caches on that hiking loop are premiums, not found in years (likely because destroyed by fire), unmaintained with active cache owners, and despite multiple DNFs from us premium members, have not had any action taken. They also saturate that whole area so no one can really place new caches. Just lol at even bothering trying to find them at this point. Another reason I won't be renewing my premium membership.

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34 minutes ago, P4nD0r4 said:

I've said this on another thread but all the premium caches in my area are just as unmaintained as regular caches. I had a good laugh last night looking at a spot I used to hike that got burned down in a wildfire in 2016. Majority of the caches on that hiking loop are premiums, not found in years (likely because destroyed by fire), unmaintained with active cache owners, and despite multiple DNFs from us premium members, have not had any action taken. They also saturate that whole area so no one can really place new caches. Just lol at even bothering trying to find them at this point. Another reason I won't be renewing my premium membership.

 

The Premium Member Only setting for caches is in no way an assurance of quality, and the setting does not maintain the cache.  But many COs seem to be under the impression that making a cache "PMO" makes it unable to be muggled.  

 

But with "DNFs" alone, a cache should not be assumed to require "action".  The cache was "Not Found".  If it was destroyed, that requires a different log.

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8 minutes ago, kunarion said:

But with "DNFs" alone, a cache should not be assumed to require "action".  The cache was "Not Found".  If it was destroyed, that requires a different log.

For reference, see the Help Center article When a cache needs maintenance.

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Ours are generally non-PMO, with some caveats - I start them all off at PMO, then after FTF change them back, unless it is an electronic gadget that I've spent many hours and dollars on, then I tend to leave it PMO. We've had a couple of rounds with a cache smasher in this region, so some of our urban/easy to get to/find caches remain PMO also.

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3 hours ago, P4nD0r4 said:

Majority of the caches on that hiking loop are premiums, not found in years (likely because destroyed by fire), unmaintained with active cache owners, and despite multiple DNFs from us premium members, have not had any action taken.

The action needs to start with the other players - NM/NA logs from what you just said....

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On 9/20/2020 at 1:24 PM, P4nD0r4 said:

I've said this on another thread but all the premium caches in my area are just as unmaintained as regular caches. I had a good laugh last night looking at a spot I used to hike that got burned down in a wildfire in 2016. Majority of the caches on that hiking loop are premiums, not found in years (likely because destroyed by fire), unmaintained with active cache owners, and despite multiple DNFs from us premium members, have not had any action taken. They also saturate that whole area so no one can really place new caches. Just lol at even bothering trying to find them at this point. Another reason I won't be renewing my premium membership.

 

It's up to the caching community to make sure that any cache, regardless of it's status as PMO or non-PMO, gets the appropriate log submitted when it's needed.  If you (or anyone else) believe that those premium caches aren't there and have enough information from other previous logs that indicate some potential issue (they're not there because they were probably destroyed by the fire), then the NM log should have been filed, either by you or someone else.  30 days later, file that NA log if it's not been attended to by the CO.  I don't know the caches in question but were they ever disabled by the COs once the fires were put out and the area was deemed safe to return to?  If not, then that would be reason enough for a NM log from the first DNF log.  I would suggest the exact same thing for a non-PMO cache in the same area.  

 

Whether or not a cache is PMO doesn't absolve the CO from maintenance expectations.  It also doesn't matter as to seekers filing the appropriate logs to alert the COs to potential issues their caches may be having.  Maintenance isn't just a one way street, whereby the CO has to figure out whether or not their cache might be missing, might be broken, or might need some attention.  It's part of the responsibility of the seekers to help out the CO and file the appropriate logs that help determine whether or not a cache might be missing (NM), might be broken (NM), or might need some attention (NM, WN, Found It).  Any inaction on the part of the CO to address those concerns posted by the seekers, after a reasonable amount of time, and it's time to get a reviewer involved (NA).

 

I'm certain all of us can single out unmaintained caches and wonder why they're still in play.  The single biggest issue, IMO, is that seekers aren't willing to log the appropriate logs to expedite either maintenance on the CO's part or archival, once a reviewer is involved.  We're waiting for a CO to take care of it, despite the fact that they haven't done so previously.  We're waiting for the CHS to ping it, despite that it takes a long time for a cache to fall below a threshold to get it noticed (and that finds, even if fake, bump the score back up).  We're "afraid" of upsetting the CO, despite the fact that it's not personal and only a notification regarding what we think the status of the cache is (missing, in bad shape).  If seekers took the time to help hold COs more accountable, then it could result in more archivals (due to lack of CO action) and/or better maintained caches.  If we just leave it to COs who have expressed very little interest in maintaining their caches, then we'll continue to get unmaintained caches that remain in play long after they should have been removed from the database (or at least until the CHS or a reviewer sweep manages to single them out).

Edited by coachstahly
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On 9/18/2020 at 1:27 PM, RuideAlmeida said:

It's precisely that... a personal option for owners.

Being "opposed" to what others decide about their caches (and the time and resources spent)... seems to me a bit extreme.

 

im against them personally. i cant control everyone but im asking your opinions

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I don't understand them, personally.  They aren't being treated better because a huge number of newbies get PM right off the bat.  I don't pay, so I can't see them, which means they will go un-found by me.  The only entity that benefits from PM is the website itself, so when you list a PMO, you are helping geocaching.com (which is fine, of course), but not really enhancing the experience for anyone else.  I'm fine with just finding the non-premium ones, and maybe some day I will get a trial so I can clean up anything I have missed in my area.  But overall I figure it's a way for geocaching.com to get more money.  Whether you want to contribute to that or not (there are pros and cons on each side) is up to you.

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8 minutes ago, Ageleni said:

But overall I figure it's a way for geocaching.com to get more money. 

 

Yet... the same Geocaching HQ allow any Basic Member to log PMO caches, searching for the GCCodes.

If Geocaching HQ wanted... it wouldn't allow it at all.

 

It is clearly a owner's option, not from HQ... each one is free to use it, or not.

Do you know any owner that was forced to turn their caches as PMO?

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1 hour ago, RuideAlmeida said:

It is clearly a owner's option, not from HQ... each one is free to use it, or not.

Do you know any owner that was forced to turn their caches as PMO?

 

No, that's why I don't understand it.  Why make your caches PMO?  It doesn't benefit the cache, and it doesn't benefit folks like me who are not PM.  It only benefits geocaching.com, because it means that if I want to find it, I have to pay.  Just not sure what the appeal is.  Maybe it's about exclusivity; like being a member of the extra-special subset of the hobby?  Or maybe some people are genuinely interested in helping the website succeed, so they make PMO caches so that more people will pay to find them.

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Basic Members can find and log PMO caches. I found quite a few of PMO caches, including several FTF, when I was a Basic Member. I can see the need to make a cache PMO in certain situations as noted above.

 

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5 minutes ago, Ageleni said:

 

No, that's why I don't understand it.  Why make your caches PMO?  It doesn't benefit the cache, and it doesn't benefit folks like me who are not PM.  It only benefits geocaching.com, because it means that if I want to find it, I have to pay.  Just not sure what the appeal is.  Maybe it's about exclusivity; like being a member of the extra-special subset of the hobby?  Or maybe some people are genuinely interested in helping the website succeed, so they make PMO caches so that more people will pay to find them.

 

There was an incident up north of here a few years ago when someone with an axe to grind created a basic account called The Cache Smasher and went around smashing every cache they could find with the app. PMO caches, non-traditionals and higher D/T rated traditionals escaped the carnage. Closer to home, bored kids downloading the free app and heading out for a weekend of "fun" have occasionally caused problems. The practicality is that, sometimes, particularly for low D/T traditionals and those that took a fair bit of time and effort to construct, PMO does help keep the cache intact.

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1 minute ago, barefootjeff said:

There was an incident up north of here a few years ago when someone with an axe to grind created a basic account called The Cache Smasher and went around smashing every cache they could find with the app. PMO caches, non-traditionals and higher D/T rated traditionals escaped the carnage. Closer to home, bored kids downloading the free app and heading out for a weekend of "fun" have occasionally caused problems. The practicality is that, sometimes, particularly for low D/T traditionals and those that took a fair bit of time and effort to construct, PMO does help keep the cache intact.

 

Funny how that works...  The cache creep from NY was a pm...

When we first started, there was a premium member stealing ammo cans.  Didn't matter if PMO or not.

Most were off the Appalachian trail,  so a good walk too. 

We got blamed, as that terrain was what I was interested in, we were "new", and haven't met anyone yet. 

We're the ones who caught him.  Not one pm ever apologized for what they put the other 2/3rds through ...  

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56 minutes ago, Ageleni said:

Or maybe some people are genuinely interested in helping the website succeed...

 

What could happen if nobody paid for this hobby that we all love? <_<

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1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Funny how that works...  The cache creep from NY was a pm...

When we first started, there was a premium member stealing ammo cans.  Didn't matter if PMO or not.

Most were off the Appalachian trail,  so a good walk too. 

We got blamed, as that terrain was what I was interested in, we were "new", and haven't met anyone yet. 

We're the ones who caught him.  Not one pm ever apologized for what they put the other 2/3rds through ...  

 

Yes, and the cacher who urinated in one of my hides was a PM. He was quite considerate, though, he left the logbook and other contents outside the container. But that doesn't alter the fact that, in many instances, setting caches to PMO can be an effective deterrent against vandalism by weekend muggles-with-apps.

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1 hour ago, RuideAlmeida said:

 

What could happen if nobody paid for this hobby that we all love? <_<

Agreed, and I have said that in posts myself. People want to do it free, but they can afford a phone and data. But then are too cheap to support the hobby.

There was a time when I couldn't justify the cost of data, but I still paid a membership to support the hobby.

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2 hours ago, Ageleni said:

because it means that if I want to find it, I have to pay

That's not true. I know many many PMO caches that have been found by non PM geocachers. I remember when a new geocacher asked me how a non PM geocacher got FTF on his PM cache. It's not as uncommon as you might think.

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2 hours ago, Ageleni said:

 Or maybe some people are genuinely interested in helping the website succeed, so they make PMO caches so that more people will pay to find them.

 

I don't believe that's the case.  Word would get out quick after finding their first pmo damp lamp post cache.    :D

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