Ethics of logging "found" when the cache can't be found

[+marcomatto]

If I've made a serious attempt to find a cache, and failed to find it, I always log DNF.

 

More and more I see that experienced geocachers, especially those with thousands of finds, assume that the cache is missing and "kindly" replace the "missing" cache, logging it as "found". Often this results in there being more than one container near the cache location. In my opinion both practices should be discouraged. If you can't find the thing then log DNF. If you think it's missing report the problem. You are not entitled to log "found".

Edited September 13, 2020 by marcomatto

[+L0ne.R]

Good luck. If you are seeing it more often it’s probably not going to change especially if the people doing it are popular in the area. If you go to events maybe try to influence/change the group-think. 

 

In my area a PM high-numbers guy would leave his motto “a DNF is not an option” in his log, and magnanimously post that he replaced the missing cache. Of course he would reward himself with a find. Many of the next finders thanked him in their logs.

 

Often those gifts were leaky containers. The gift giving cacher never placed good containers and never maintained what he left behind. Often the cache listings ended up archived by a reviewer anyway because the original owner never responded to NMs and NAs.  The guy never went back to remove his container. 

 

When a local community becomes tight (meet up for events and cache together) and they decide numbers matter most, then this type of behaviour becomes OK and rewarded. 

 

. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by L0ne.R

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, marcomatto said:

If I've made a serious attempt to find a cache, and failed to find it, I always log DNF.

 

More and more I see that experienced geocachers, especially those with thousands of finds, assume that the cache is missing and "kindly" replace the "missing" cache, logging it as "found". Often this results in there being more than one container near the cache location. In my opinion both practices should be discouraged. If you can't find the thing then log DNF. If you think it's missing report the problem. You are not entitled to log "found".

 

Preachin' to the choir.          

I feel it's already too late to change them, many having cached this way for years, and folks are all aware.

Most communities we've seen realize this is not a nice thing to do, but it seems every community has one who doesn't get it.

Most we see here have more to do with hubris than "numbers".  "I have thousands of finds, and if I can't find it it's not there"... 

Games need points, and the few who play this hobby as a game here,  fibbing their way through, usually move on or out of the area.

Whenever one of these fakers starts crowing, many are like us and call 'em on it.   

[+dprovan]

When I first started in 2010, throwdowns were fairly normal in my area. Yes, it was mainly experienced cachers, but that's more because they carried supplies, not because they got huge numbers from dropping replacement caches. Over the next few years, opinion turned against throwdowns, so now it's pretty rare for a replacement to be placed without getting in touch with the CO. In short, I think this is a cultural thing that varies from place to place and over time. I suggest you talk it over with whoever you think dropped the throwdown. Maybe you can change their minds about whether they're really being as helpful as they think they are.

[+on4bam]

We logged a DNF today on a cache where we first solved the fieldpuzzle to get the lock's code. The lock wouldn't open. CO confirmed that the code was correct and he would check the lock. Cachers who joined us tried also and failed. They logged a found it, the other two cachers today logged a found it and a DNF. Looks like 50% fake founds today

[+DARKSIDEDAN]

If you can't find it, you shouldn't claim it as found.

Edited November 21, 2021 by DARKSIDEDAN

[+Max and 99]

6 minutes ago, DARKSIDEDAN said:

If you cant find it you cant claim it as found

Sure you can.

[+hzoi]

15 hours ago, DARKSIDEDAN said:

If you cant find it you cant claim it as found

 

I think a more accurate statement would be, "If you can't find it, you shouldn't claim it as found."

 

Max and 99 are correct, in that it is possible to log it as found no matter what. Whether such a log is factually accurate and ethically correct, however, is the question.

[+Mausebiber]

[+L0ne.R]

On 11/17/2021 at 2:40 PM, Mausebiber said:

 

Oh how times have changed. There are rewards now

• The ability to log a find on challenge caches (prize)
• Souvenirs (digital trophies)
• A statistics tab and grid to encourage competition with yourself and others (leaderboards)
• Project-GC to compare your stats to others (leaderboards)
• Cache types to use for grid-filling and challenge rewards (prize)

[+Volanges]

We had a guy in our area who was notorious for doing that. A few times I've found a "missing" cache container a few feet from where he'd dropped his "replacement". We all called him out on it and I never logged a cache if all I could find was his replacement container. 

He's left our area now and he's up to his old tricks in someone else's neck of the woods. But there are cachers on to him there too, and his logs get deleted by the owners.

What personal satisfaction can you possibly get from fake stats?!?!?! That would be like me claiming I've walked 3 miles because my fitbit recorded every movement of my arm while I was raking leaves on a 10'x10' lawn while standing in place for much of it.

[Darwin473]

The wonders of the human brain.

 

I find it annoying and will call out a throwdown if I have enough evidence to be reasonably sure, but I can understand the mentality behind it.

 

I would imagine that most people who read up the rules and want to play properly start out only logging finds when they've signed the log. But it'll be a bit like dirt building up in the house. It'll be a little bit at a time, gradually changing a little each day. The person who lives there wouldn't notice as the change is slow and they get used to it, but then someone comes to visit and points out that the house is filthy.

 

Some people would go "oops" and fix the problem, others will double down and get upset because they would never live in a filthy house so the visitor must be wrong!