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Chronograms - I wish I could find one.


Max and 99

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I think this is such an interesting category! Too bad I can't find any. :)

Are there any in the US? I'm guessing not, since no one has posted one. I'd sure love to find one, though.

I keep hoping that somewhere, sometime, I'll come across one. Seems quite unlikely, though. But if I ever do....you'll hear the hooting and howling all the way from Austria.

Very cool category, though!

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3 hours ago, Jayeffel said:

what is a chronogram? Never heard the term before.

 

from the category description

 

A chronogram is a text in which the sum of all letters which may be interpreted as numerals yields a year. The letters intended to be interpreted as numerals are almost always highlighted by increased size or color variance, commonly red or gold. The year will, as a rule, indicate an important event, for example the year of construction of a monument or building. The event can also be a natural disaster, a battle, the birth of an heir to the throne or something similar.

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... in which the sum of all letters within a body of text which may be interpreted as ROMAN numerals yields a year.

The body of text may be on a plaque, it may be a motto over the entrance to a building, it may be a quotation from a speech or other text. Here, there a lot of possibilities. The problem with chronograms, from a Waymarker's point of view, is that, for the most part, they fell into disuse several centuries ago. This gives the Europeans a definite advantage, in terms of the likelihood of finding one, over much of the rest of the world.

 

Here's an example, from a Waymark by the creator of the category:

sIstIte VIatores! qVIs non fLeret sI VIDeret IesVM In sVppLICIIs

 

Add the capital letters and you'll get 1736. The explanation will be found in The Waymark.

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII
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On 9/11/2020 at 7:02 PM, elyob said:

Apparently, the Washington Monument interior block donated by Turkey includes a chronogram.  See page 128 below.

 

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/37535/37535-h/37535-h.htm

 

If the pandemic wasn't still going on, and I was still in school in the DC area, I would definitely try to get tickets to go inside the Washington Monument. I know they recently re-opened it (prior to covid) since the 2011 Earthquake. If I'm not mistaken, they had to re-close it due to covid. I've always wanted go to the top and see everything, but never had the chance. 

 

As for Chronograms, yea I have yet to see any even though I'm a reviewer in that category. I'm sure there are a few in the US, but not very many. If any, they would be in large cities like DC and probably donated or moved monuments from Europe. There's hope for us American waymarkers, lol.

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On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 2:00 AM, Max and 99 said:

I think this is such an interesting category! Too bad I can't find any. :)

Are there any in the US? I'm guessing not, since no one has posted one. ...

 

Well, there is one in Canada, so I assume that there MUST be at least one in the USA too. When I once visited the Weinberg Castle (in Austria) I looked for chronograms, but didn't find any above its entrance or so. And then, coincidentally, I found one in the chapel of the Castle. Coincidentally, because the chronogram was not at the beginning of the text, not at the end of the text or completely the text. It was "hidden" in the middle of the text. And, it was not above the entrance of the chapel, but on a stone plaque at the rear wall of the chapel. Often they are on big public buildings, but some can even be found on private buildings too.

 

So, if you can't find one in the USA, make your own chronogram. if you own a house or other publicly visible buildings or whatever, you can create your own chronogram and publish it, for example "MaX at hoMe" would be 2010. It just have to have a meaning. So, if you built your house in 2010 or moved to your apartment in 2010, that would make sense. And of course it has to be permanent.

Edited by PISA-caching
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Well, a lot of European settlers moved to the USA/Canada in the old days. That's why I was hoping that they brought this tradition with them. But like I said, the chronograms can be found on all kinds of buildings, structures and so on. I even found one on a tombstone. But it seems as if they are not easy to find in Canada/USA. Even in Europe they are easy to find in some countries and hardly in another. But old churches are a good place to look for them. It's just that they are often not above the entrance, but on a seprate item. I lately saw a chronogram at the bottom of the organ balcony referring to the restauration of it. It's really hard to say, where they can be found, because I find them in all kinds of places (within a church).

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On 9/16/2020 at 3:55 AM, PISA-caching said:

So, if you can't find one in the USA, make your own chronogram. if you own a house or other publicly visible buildings or whatever, you can create your own chronogram and publish it, for example "MaX at hoMe" would be 2010. It just have to have a meaning. So, if you built your house in 2010 or moved to your apartment in 2010, that would make sense. And of course it has to be permanent.

Can you please clarify permanent, as it relates to this category and your suggestion?

I had a waymark declined because "paint isn't permanent". I understood and accepted the decision. But then someone else categorized it after all my work, and it was approved. When I asked the reviewer for an explanation, I was told "he/she says paint is permanent." 

 

Thanks!

I know a challenge when I see one. :)

Edited by Max and 99
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7 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

MaX at hoMe

 

MaX liVes and loVes at hoMe - 2020

Get out a chisel and hammer and a hunk of wood, carve the above into it and nail it to the front of your house - all BEFORE Dec. 31.

(Or, should you miss the deadline, simply capitalize the "i" in lives.)

 

You're welcome.

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2020 at 3:16 AM, Max and 99 said:

Can you please clarify permanent, as it relates to this category and your suggestion?

I had a waymark declined because "paint isn't permanent". I understood and accepted the decision. But then someone else categorized it after all my work, and it was approved. When I asked the reviewer for an explanation, I was told "he/she says paint is permanent." 

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/permanent says "Lasting for an indefinitely long time.". And I copy another sentence of that webpage: Nothing in this world is truly permanent. ;) 

Your waymark wasn't declined in the Chronograms category, was it? If yes, send me a PN.

The last chronogram waymark I posted also has the chronogram painted above the entrance of a church since 1730. So, it always depends. Whether it really is "permanent" or not can only be known when the "indefinitely long time" is over, but is not determined by the material that is used. I would say, the reviewer will have to have the impression that it will be there several years. That sounds very subjective and yes, it is subjective. But if you really plan to paint a chronogram on your house and create a waymark, I assume that you won't paint over it the next year. Therefore I would consider it to be permanent and approve it.

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2020 at 10:35 AM, ScroogieII said:

 

MaX liVes and loVes at hoMe - 2020

Get out a chisel and hammer and a hunk of wood, carve the above into it and nail it to the front of your house - all BEFORE Dec. 31.

(Or, should you miss the deadline, simply capitalize the "i" in lives.)

 

You're welcome.

 

The chronogram hasn't to refer to the year it (the chronogram) was made, but can also refer to the year the house was built or the year of Max' birth and so on.

 

Edited by PISA-caching
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On 9/16/2020 at 3:55 AM, PISA-caching said:

if you own a house or other publicly visible buildings or whatever, you can create your own chronogram and publish it, for example "MaX at hoMe" would be 2010. It just have to have a meaning. So, if you built your house in 2010 or moved to your apartment in 2010, that would make sense. And of course it has to be permanent.

 

On 9/22/2020 at 2:01 AM, PISA-caching said:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/permanent says "Lasting for an indefinitely long time.". And I copy another sentence of that webpage: Nothing in this world is truly permanent. ;) 
. . .

So, it always depends. Whether it really is "permanent" or not can only be known when the "indefinitely long time" is over, but is not determined by the material that is used. I would say, the reviewer will have to have the impression that it will be there several years. That sounds very subjective and yes, it is subjective. But if you really plan to paint a chronogram on your house and create a waymark, I assume that you won't paint over it the next year. Therefore I would consider it to be permanent and approve it.

 

This has been a fun and fascinating journey, requiring a lot of creativity and polishing to create a chronogram that does not sound stilted or odd when read. We have really enjoyed all aspects of this adventure, from finally having that stroke of insight to make a non-stilted chronogram,  to the this-lady-is-crazy look on the engraver's face when I explained what I wanted  on my plaque. To his credit, my husband was totally on board with the chronogram on the front of the house. He has turned in to a waymarker!  

 

But my greatest thanks goes to PISA-caching, who not only conceived of and created this very cool category, he was both gracious helping me, AND flexible in devising a way for everyone worldwide to participate and waymark in this category. 

 

For me, Waymarking in the more technical, difficult, or rare categories is the most fun. As a new waymarker, I spent quite a lot of time scouring my home city, looking for rare or hard-to-find categories to waymark in, both to fill my own grid and help others fill theirs. In the course of that, I learned to look at my surroundings a different way, with more attention-to-detail and curiosity. That way-of-looking has enriched our family experiences in our travels to this day. Common question on the road: "How did you see / know about that?" My answer: "Waymarking - its a category."

 

Next step for me is the put Naval Station Blaster (AKA Blaster Base) on blast (ha ha), hoping to pick up a few visits on my Chronogram while helping my fellow waymarkers who find themselves in Dallas with an icon. 

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8 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

this-lady-is-crazy

 

Oh Hell, Perky, I suspect that boat has long ago departed the harbour.

But, that said, CONGRATS on that WM. If I had the ambition I would also create one, but MUCH better than yours, MUCH more innovative, MUCH more artistic AND serenely obscure. :D :) :blink:

Keith

Edited by ScroogieII
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7 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

For me, Waymarking in the more technical, difficult, or rare categories is the most fun. As a new waymarker, I spent quite a lot of time scouring my home city, looking for rare or hard-to-find categories to waymark in, both to fill my own grid and help others fill theirs. In the course of that, I learned to look at my surroundings a different way, with more attention-to-detail and curiosity. That way-of-looking has enriched our family experiences in our travels to this day. Common question on the road: "How did you see / know about that?" My answer: "Waymarking - its a category."

 

Altogether, a wonderful & wonderful (using two distinct meanings of the word) way of approaching our hobby, wouldn't you think?

Keith

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1 hour ago, ScroogieII said:

 

Oh Hell, Perky, I suspect that boat has long ago departed the harbour.

But, that said, CONGRATS on that WM. If I had the ambition I would also create one, but MUCH better than yours, MUCH more innovative, MUCH more artistic AND serenely obscure. :D :) :blink:

Keith

 

 

And with  A LOT more Roman Numerals,  if you were commemorating your AGE ha ha ha ha  :D

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21 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

But my greatest thanks goes to PISA-caching, ...

 

  1. I want to appologize, because I have been offline for a few days, just when your WM was sent to Review, causing quite some confusion.
     
  2. I want to ensure each and everybody that new chronograms are very welcome, as long as they are "permanent". I always have a problem with that word, because it is subjective, but if somebody sprays a chronogram on a wall and creates a WM of it, I will most likely decline it. But if somebody (like in this case) creates a plaque or sign or whatever, I count on it, that it will not be thrown away after a year or so and that is permanent enough for me.
     
  3. It doesn't matter, if you find a chronogram on any building or structure or if you create it yourself. There are hundreds of old chronograms in the category by now and considering the speed of its growing, I doubt that self-made chronograms will be able to flood the category. On the opposite, it will help to teach people around the world of what a chronogram is and that's one of the aspects, why I love my chronograms category.
     
  4. 13 hours ago, ScroogieII said:

    You cheated. W ≠ VV :D


    As you can read in the category description, "VV" used for a "W" is a valid part of a chronogram and you can find it even on older chronograms, f.e. WM134A5. It's just harder to find, because most of the older chronograms are in Latin, which doesn't have the letter W. So you mostly find it in people's or city's names. Also valid, but hard to find is "Y", representing "I" and "I" (=2).

 

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4 minutes ago, PISA-caching said:


As you can read in the category description, "VV" used for a "W" is a valid part of a chronogram and you can find it even on older chronograms, f.e. WM134A5. It's just harder to find, because most of the older chronograms are in Latin, which doesn't have the letter W. So you mostly find it in people's or city's names. Also valid, but hard to find is "Y", representing "I" and "I" (=2).

 


I knew about the VV=W, but not about the Y=II.
 

Back to the engraver for another wierd look - I really tried to write my chronogram in a way that any letters that  could be Roman numerals were used in the math - I’ll update the waymark when I get the new plaque, dropping the “ThIs Is” for “Here’s.”

 

Also - no apologies required. My submission set off fireworks that I was NOT expecting and the vote comments reflect those. 
 

I do think a clear write-up of your  expectations for waymarker-created chronograms on the Category Description page would be helpful to both waymarkers AND officers in the future, should you choose to do that. 
 

Greater understanding of what is required of waymarkers and clearer acceptance/decline guides for officers make the Waymarking world a happy place :) 

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3 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

As you can read in the category description, "VV" used for a "W" is a valid part of a chronogram and you can find it even on older chronograms

Yeah, I know - just wanted to give the Blasterz the gears.

I keep looking, but am unlikely to ever find a chronogram in this neck o' the woods.

And BTW, don't tell Perky that I actually cheated to get my one and only Chronogram WM. :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

Back to the engraver for another wierd look - I really tried to write my chronogram in a way that any letters that  could be Roman numerals were used in the math - I’ll update the waymark when I get the new plaque, dropping the “ThIs Is” for “Here’s.”

I'm not understanding this part.

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3 hours ago, PISA-caching said:

So, it will be "Here’s BMB's teXt VVayMark of ????" then? That makes 2020 instead.

 

No - it will be

 

Here's BMB's teXt VVaYMark of ????

 

M+X+V+V+Y+M = 2022 

1000+10+5+5+2+1000 = 2022

 

 . . . . UNLESS y'all think Y is too obscure, in which case I will leave well enough alone and not re-burden the engraver who thinks I'm crazy ha ha 

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
add formatting
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13 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

 . . . . UNLESS y'all think Y is too obscure, in which case I will leave well enough alone and not re-burden the engraver who thinks I'm crazy ha ha 

 

The Y=II is very rare and therefore widely unknown. Mainly, because Y is not in the Latin alphabet. The big difference between W and Y is, that VV looks much more similar to a W, than a Y to a II. Therefore, I (personally) wouldn't do it. But I guess that in your part of the world you would have to explain anybody anyway, what it is and how it works. So, it's up to you. Maybe, it would be easier/better, if all the Roman letters also had another color, because you also have a B that doesn't represent a Roman numeral, but "bMb" is probably not what you want.

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Here are some examples you might also want to consider (given, that you want to use the Y, but also working for the prior version of the text):


here's bMb's teXt VVaYMark of ???? 

HERE'S BMB'S TEXT WAYMARK OF ????

HERE'S BMB'S TEXT WAYMARK OF ????

HERE'S BMB'S TEXT WAYMARK OF ????

 

Or, much more hidden:

HERE'S BMB'S TEXT WAYMARK OF ????

Edited by PISA-caching
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I think at this point I shall leave well enough alone. So sorry to those of you (I know you are out there waiting, Keith) who were hoping for another embarrassing encounter with engraver guy - but you will just have to live in disappointment! HA!

 

Besides, I’m sure I’ll have another similar experience to entertain you all with soon - it’s my nature 

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2 hours ago, Benchmark Blasterz said:

I just got an opportunity to add a brick to a paved walkway at the new Animal Shelter - hmmm wonder if I could make a chronogram?  We adopted our cat Beeper there in 2020.

What a fun idea! Most of the dedicated brick fundraisers I've seen require all capital letters.

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6 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

What a fun idea! Most of the dedicated brick fundraisers I've seen require all capital letters.

 

Yeah - this one you can add paw prints, hearts, and there are different sizes and shapes of bricks/pavers. I have many questions, and I will be calling Animal Services today to see if the text comes in caps only or can I alternate. 🤞

 

Here are two I have worked up:

 

Our Beeper 

caMe hoMe

19 Sep XOXO 

(yeah I know I skipped the C)


Our HoMe 

Made by

[paw] Beeper [paw]

19 Sep XOXO

 

We got our 

[paw] BEEPER [paw]

on 19 Sept

MeoVV  MeoVV

 

The hidden date is 2020.

Hey Keith: sorry buddy, but I think I might  miss out on the this-lady-is-crazy look from the engraver, but my buddies at the Animal Shelter will DEF be sharing that look around the place — 🤣🤣🤣

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
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UPDATE:

 

Plaques on the kennels are a mix of upper and lower case, and bricks are all upper case. Hmm I wonder what would happen if *some unknown and unnamed somebody* might happen along with some red or gold paint and paint a few letters on a particular engraved brick so those letters would be a different color? Hmmmm

 

Also: plaques are on kennels in non-public areas of the shelter and sponsoring a room in the public area of the shelter is $3000 for a small playroom and $5000 for the meet and greet room. Daddy Blaster has said N-O-P-E to those. 
 

So it’s bricks or nada.

 

EDIT 30 Mar: The bricks are sealed so paint won’t stick, and walkway is power washed so this idea of highlighting the numbers with paint on the sly is a no-go 

Edited by Benchmark Blasterz
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On 3/21/2022 at 6:31 PM, ScroogieII said:

I just looked again. You cheated. W ≠ VV :D

 

On 3/22/2022 at 8:26 AM, PISA-caching said:

As you can read in the category description, "VV" used for a "W" is a valid part of a chronogram and you can find it even on older chronograms, f.e. WM134A5. It's just harder to find, because most of the older chronograms are in Latin, which doesn't have the letter W. So you mostly find it in people's or city's names. Also valid, but hard to find is "Y", representing "I" and "I" (=2).

 


NYAH Keith - W=VV. Hopefully the reverse is ALSO true: VV=W 

 

Here’s the latest iteration of my Beeper Chronogram. We adopted her on 22 Sep 2020:

 

[paw] BEEPER [paw]
OURS ON 22 SEP

* MEOW MEOW *
 

where the ** sets off the part of the brick with the chronogram. 
 

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Well, this is quite unusual, but somehow I like the idea. The category description says:

"If the letters used to create the Chronogram aren't clearly highlighted in some way, you must add an explanation to your description or add a link (in the variables) to an external source."

 

So, there is no need that the letters are bigger or have another color or something. Just make sure to explain it in the description.

 

Now, for the W: On the one hand, it would be easier to identify, if it said "MEOVV", but on the other hand, everybody (outside the WM community) would think it is an error in the text. (They will think "They forgot the year" anyway. :)). So, I think you can use either variation. You have to explain it in the WM description anyway.

 

AND, I take it for granted that the brick will be much more "permanent", than one might consider for the sign on your house. At least you could remove the sign anytime, but it will be much harder to take that brick out of the paved walkway. :)

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