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uberclimber

Which Cache Type to Use?

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One of the first caches I ever hid - a simple hidden-under-a-bench, magnetized container type - has been found and removed a couple of times, and I want to make something a little harder-to-notice.

 

My girlfriend suggested that a nano container be attached to one end of a short length of dowel rod, which is then inserted into a hole drilled into a nearby wooden beam, sanded flush and then painted so that it's hard to notice. To extract the dowel, you would wave a magnet over the dowel and (hopefully) the magnetic attraction would cause the dowel to pop out and draw the container out with it. I like the idea...it seems sneaky and challenging.

 

Do you think this would work?

 

I wouldn't expect everyone to carry around a strong magnet, so would want to provide a magnet as part of the cache, somehow. The searcher first finds the magnet, then uses it to extract the container, is what I'm thinking. Is there a way to do this within the confines of cache types available? If so what cache type would it be? (Forgive me if this is obvious to all of you. I'm in Japan, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of imagination put into the caches over here, so I haven't run into a lot of variety of cache types myself...)

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3 minutes ago, uberclimber said:

One of the first caches I ever hid - a simple hidden-under-a-bench, magnetized container type - has been found and removed a couple of times, and I want to make something a little harder-to-notice.

 

My girlfriend suggested that a nano container be attached to one end of a short length of dowel rod, which is then inserted into a hole drilled into a nearby wooden beam, sanded flush and then painted so that it's hard to notice. To extract the dowel, you would wave a magnet over the dowel and (hopefully) the magnetic attraction would cause the dowel to pop out and draw the container out with it. I like the idea...it seems sneaky and challenging.

 

Do you think this would work?

 

I wouldn't expect everyone to carry around a strong magnet, so would want to provide a magnet as part of the cache, somehow. The searcher first finds the magnet, then uses it to extract the container, is what I'm thinking. Is there a way to do this within the confines of cache types available? If so what cache type would it be? (Forgive me if this is obvious to all of you. I'm in Japan, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of imagination put into the caches over here, so I haven't run into a lot of variety of cache types myself...)

Would this hole-drilling be on your personal property?

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I would probably call that a traditional cache with a field puzzle attribute. Maybe a special tool attribute.That's the first thing that comes to mind. 

Edited by Max and 99

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11 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I would probably call that a traditional cache with a field puzzle attribute. Maybe a special tool attribute.That's the first thing that comes to mind. 

...and just require them to bring their own magnet?

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4 minutes ago, uberclimber said:

...and just require them to bring their own magnet?

Good question. I had to read your post again to understand that one of the suggestions was providing the magnet. Sorry. If you provide the magnet nearby then it could be a multi-cache or still a Trad with a field puzzle. Depends on the distance between the cache and the magnet. 

Your cache idea seems a lot to me like a water cache where you have to pour water into a tube and the cache container eventually floats up. You have to bring your own water to retrieve the cache. So in your case I would put on the cache page that you'll need to bring a magnet.

Just some things that come to mind. 

Edited by Max and 99

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2 minutes ago, uberclimber said:

...and just require them to bring their own magnet?

That sounds like a field puzzle, not a traditional. So puzzle cache.

I visited one like that once when visiting a city and going from cache to cache randomly to log a few. I came upon a 'traditional' cache that needed a magnet. Very annoying, as I didn't expect to need special equipment for a low rated traditional cache. I had to walk away.

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8 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

That sounds like a field puzzle, not a traditional. So puzzle cache.

I visited one like that once when visiting a city and going from cache to cache randomly to log a few. I came upon a 'traditional' cache that needed a magnet. Very annoying, as I didn't expect to need special equipment for a low rated traditional cache. I had to walk away.

That would annoy me, too...which is why I'd like to provide the magnet, close by. 

 

'Goldenwattle'...does that mean you're Australian?

 

Edited by uberclimber

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11 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

That sounds like a field puzzle, not a traditional. So puzzle cache.

I visited one like that once when visiting a city and going from cache to cache randomly to log a few. I came upon a 'traditional' cache that needed a magnet. Very annoying, as I didn't expect to need special equipment for a low rated traditional cache. I had to walk away.

But traditionals can have a field puzzle attribute. Can't they?

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This type of cache can be classified as a mystery cache or as a traditional cache with the field puzzle attribute.  The answer varies regionally or by hider. 

 

Most importantly, this cache must be classified as a "cache hidden with express permission of the landowner" - and stated as such on the cache page - since it violates the Geocache Hiding Guidelines as described.

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29 minutes ago, uberclimber said:

Goldenwattle'...does that mean you're Australian?

Yes, Golden wattle  is the Australian National Flower. 1st September is 'Wattle Day'. So nice that each year they have a special day for me :D:P.

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29 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

attribute

Yes, but on my GPS attributes don't show. This has been discussed before. So attributes are useless for unplanned, random caching.

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My experience is that caches with field puzzles are listed as traditional here. 

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4 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

Yes, but on my GPS attributes don't show. This has been discussed before. So attributes are useless for unplanned, random caching.

But if it's unplanned random caching trip you won't have the tool required anyway. 

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2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

But if it's unplanned random caching trip you won't have the tool required anyway. 

That's why it's better to be classified a Puzzle cache. That gives people time to prepare to find it. Not turn up randomly and find it's not really a Traditional, and it has to be worked out first where it is, and then how to access it.

This was in an area too where tourists are likely to cache.

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Just now, Goldenwattle said:

That's why it's better to be classified a Puzzle cache. That gives people time to prepare to find it. Not turn up randomly and find it's not really a Traditional, and it has to be worked out first where it is, and then how to access it.

This was in an area too where tourists are likely to cache.

But if it's a traditional it is where it says it is.

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33 minutes ago, Keystone said:

This type of cache can be classified as a mystery cache or as a traditional cache with the field puzzle attribute.  The answer varies regionally or by hider. 

 

Most importantly, this cache must be classified as a "cache hidden with express permission of the landowner" - and stated as such on the cache page - since it violates the Geocache Hiding Guidelines as described.

I have no experience with caching outside Japan, NZ and Australia, so please re-educate me if I'm completely wrong about this, but I seriously doubt that everyone who hides a cache on public property 'gets permission from the agency or association that manages the land'. I'm 100% positive that the majority of caches hidden over here are done so on public property WITHOUT permission. And I'm yet to see a single cache over here with that disclaimer written on the page.

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28 minutes ago, uberclimber said:

 

I have no experience with caching outside Japan, NZ and Australia, so please re-educate me if I'm completely wrong about this, but I seriously doubt that everyone who hides a cache on public property 'gets permission from the agency or association that manages the land'. I'm 100% positive that the majority of caches hidden over here are done so on public property WITHOUT permission. And I'm yet to see a single cache over here with that disclaimer written on the page.

I don't ever remember seeing that on a cache in Australia either. I have though seen, when it's in a private yard or on a farm, saying that the house/farm owner knows about this and give permission. I don't ever remember seeing this for government property that's accessible to the public. Some government land of course is ruled out as it's not accessible to the public. I suspect that things are not as free in the USA as many other countries in these regards.

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33 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I don't ever remember seeing that on a cache in Australia either. I have though seen, when it's in a private yard or on a farm, saying that the house/farm owner knows about this and give permission. I don't ever remember seeing this for government property that's accessible to the public. Some government land of course is ruled out as it's not accessible to the public. I suspect that things are not as free in the USA as many other countries in these regards.

Yeah, all that litigation.

 

I did see a notification somewhat like that on a cache on private property in Fiji stating that the owner knew about the cache. The owner - a beautiful woman - came out when we arrived, welcomed us, told us to enjoy the search, and reappeared with a big plate of fresh local fruit. It was one of the loveliest experiences I've ever had while caching.

Edited by uberclimber
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1 hour ago, uberclimber said:

 

I have no experience with caching outside Japan, NZ and Australia, so please re-educate me if I'm completely wrong about this, but I seriously doubt that everyone who hides a cache on public property 'gets permission from the agency or association that manages the land'. I'm 100% positive that the majority of caches hidden over here are done so on public property WITHOUT permission. And I'm yet to see a single cache over here with that disclaimer written on the page.

 

But it sounds like you are destroying some other property. The wooden beam belongs to someone, right?

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30 minutes ago, terratin said:

 

But it sounds like you are destroying some other property. The wooden beam belongs to someone, right?

It belongs to the city, I guess. I'd debate whether drilling a hole is 'destroying' it...'damaging' at worst. And since the hole will have wood inside put back inside it (in the form of the dowel), is it really so bad?

But I take your point...and I do have some qualms and reservations on this point about the idea.

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1 hour ago, uberclimber said:

Yeah, all that litigation.

 

I did see a notification somewhat like that on a cache on private property in Fiji stating that the owner knew about the cache. The owner - a beautiful woman - came out when we arrived, welcomed us, told us to enjoy the search, and reappeared with a big plate of fresh local fruit. It was one of the loveliest experiences I've ever had while caching.

What a nice geocaching story!

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I'd say traditional + fieldpuzzle attribute. Using GSAK to load caches to the GPS shows attributes so no issue on that. As for drilling the hole. I've seen plenty of them. Most common is a hole with micro in it covered by a reflector. I doubt that these holes on public property have permission. OTOH I've never hear about CO's getting in trouble for it. Since we see more cooperation between CO's and town officials (sometimes using the town's tourist bureau as CO name) I guess most are OK with it.

As for magnets. Should be in everyone's backpack. B) I just bought 2 extra strong ones (19 Kg pull) as my smaller magnet (2Kg) sometimes let go. They are used on a regular basis (2 times yesterday).

 

 

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3 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

But if it's a traditional it is where it says it is.

But not that it had a puzzle to work out how to retrieve it. And then after it's worked out, that you don't have the tools to retrieve it.

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31 minutes ago, on4bam said:

I'd say traditional + fieldpuzzle attribute. Using GSAK to load caches to the GPS shows attributes so no issue on that. As for drilling the hole. I've seen plenty of them. Most common is a hole with micro in it covered by a reflector. I doubt that these holes on public property have permission. OTOH I've never hear about CO's getting in trouble for it. Since we see more cooperation between CO's and town officials (sometimes using the town's tourist bureau as CO name) I guess most are OK with it.

As for magnets. Should be in everyone's backpack. B) I just bought 2 extra strong ones (19 Kg pull) as my smaller magnet (2Kg) sometimes let go. They are used on a regular basis (2 times yesterday).

 

 

In over 10,000 finds I can think of only once where a magnet was needed. The example I mentioned. So it's not something I routinely carry.

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32 minutes ago, on4bam said:

I'd say traditional + fieldpuzzle attribute. Using GSAK to load caches to the GPS shows attributes so no issue on that. As for drilling the hole. I've seen plenty of them. Most common is a hole with micro in it covered by a reflector. I doubt that these holes on public property have permission. OTOH I've never hear about CO's getting in trouble for it. Since we see more cooperation between CO's and town officials (sometimes using the town's tourist bureau as CO name) I guess most are OK with it.

As for magnets. Should be in everyone's backpack. B) I just bought 2 extra strong ones (19 Kg pull) as my smaller magnet (2Kg) sometimes let go. They are used on a regular basis (2 times yesterday).

 

 

I don't use GSAK, so no attributes.

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1 minute ago, Goldenwattle said:

In over 10,000 finds I can think of only once where a magnet was needed. The example I mentioned. So it's not something I routinely carry.

It probably has to do with our caching preferences.

We prepare all cachingtrips and select caches we want to do. That means we have a low "run of the mill" caches percentage and a higher percentage of "better" (for us) caches. That means more gadget caches and thus more "tools required" (all kinds of batteries, magnets, water, screwdrivers, wrench..... ). I just recently bought a lockpicking kit in order to go after a few caches that need them.

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2 minutes ago, on4bam said:

It probably has to do with our caching preferences.

We prepare all cachingtrips and select caches we want to do. That means we have a low "run of the mill" caches percentage and a higher percentage of "better" (for us) caches. That means more gadget caches and thus more "tools required" (all kinds of batteries, magnets, water, screwdrivers, wrench..... ). I just recently bought a lockpicking kit in order to go after a few caches that need them.

I usually take them as they come. If I am going on a long trip I do pre-prepare (often with some detail too; parking, entrance, distance to walk, hint, other cachers' comments, etc), but around a city I might just wander from one to the next.

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Just my suggestion: hide your own magnet (strong enough!) nearby and list those coordinates as stage 1 of a multi cache. The cachers find the tool there and the coordinates of the final - they may be engraved in the tool (which would be nice!). They take the magnet and use it to log the cache. Afterwards they bring it back.

 

In my location it's not unrare that you'll need a (telescopic) magnet. It's written in the listing and everything's fine. When the cachers are unable to read the listing it is their fault not the owner's. (If the owner does not mention it at all that's bad! And sometimes they just use the "special tool required" attribute but won't tell which one! :-(()

 

But I though prefer the multi cache with all the tools provided by the owner.

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3 hours ago, uberclimber said:

It belongs to the city, I guess. I'd debate whether drilling a hole is 'destroying' it...'damaging' at worst. And since the hole will have wood inside put back inside it (in the form of the dowel), is it really so bad?

But I take your point...and I do have some qualms and reservations on this point about the idea.

Drilling holes in city equipment without their permission is against the guidelines 

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1 hour ago, frostengel said:

But I though prefer the multi cache with all the tools provided by the owner.

 

Unfortunately provided tools tend to magically disappear.

 

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26 minutes ago, on4bam said:

 

Unfortunately provided tools tend to magically disappear.

 

As do caches themselves...hence this entire thread!

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17 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Unfortunately provided tools tend to magically disappear.

 

That's why it is important that stage 1 and final aren't too far away. If the cachers have to make a detour to put the stage back they will forget more likely....

Ideally there is only one way to reach the final stage and to go back - and therefore it's sure that the cachers will have to pass stage 1 again after finishing the cache.

 

With all the discussions about destroying public property: perhaps that's not the best location (is a bench a location at all??) for such a project. Why not search for a nice stone quarry, put a hole in the wall and enter a not too small cache (not a nano cache!) and hide the tool at the entrance of the quarry.

 

With a little higher terrain it will get less attention but the little cachers will like the hide even more - and those aren't the cachers to likely lose the tool. ;-)

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Just now, uberclimber said:

As do caches themselves...hence this entire thread!

Tools are more prone to disappearing than the caches they are needed for. So far the caches needing tools we did were sturdy and well fixed. Since the tools can not be fixed to anything if they need to be found some distance from the cache they get lost more easily.

If a cachecontainer is large enough (birdhouse...) a secret/hidden compartment can be used to hide the tool.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, frostengel said:

 

With all the discussions about destroying public property: perhaps that's not the best location (is a bench a location at all??) for such a project.

It's not the bench itself, but where the bench is located...on a viewing platform in a beautiful park, overlooking a lovely pond surrounded by those old stone lanterns. But yeah, maybe it would be better to rethink the whole thing.

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I’d say Trad with Field Puzzle and/or Special Tool attribute.  D-rating would need to reflect that it’s not a straightforward find.  And if you’re not providing the magnet, either an explicit mention or a decent hint.
 

8 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

That sounds like a field puzzle, not a traditional. So puzzle cache.

I visited one like that once when visiting a city and going from cache to cache randomly to log a few. I came upon a 'traditional' cache that needed a magnet.


I don’t see any difference between this and say a cache with a Climbing Gear attribute.  They’re both at the posted coords, and if you don’t have the right equipment you’d not be able to do either.

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9 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I’d say Trad with Field Puzzle and/or Special Tool attribute.  D-rating would need to reflect that it’s not a straightforward find.  And if you’re not providing the magnet, either an explicit mention or a decent hint.
 


I don’t see any difference between this and say a cache with a Climbing Gear attribute.  They’re both at the posted coords, and if you don’t have the right equipment you’d not be able to do either.

The climbing one usually has a 4 or 5 T rating, so it's easy to avoid. A puzzle cache that needs a magnet, likely has a much lower T, so no warning about it. Also it could be presumed that no special equipment is needed for many people. They just climb. So there is a difference.

Edited by Goldenwattle

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26 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

The climbing one usually has a 4 or 5 T rating, so it's easy to avoid. A puzzle cache that needs a magnet, likely has a much lower T, so no warning about it. Also it could be presumed that no special equipment is needed for many people. They just climb. So there is a difference.


The point is there are plenty of caches that you can’t do if you’re unprepared.  Cache Type + D/T Ratings + Attributes + the Cache Description all help prepare you.  Of course it can be disappointing to have to walk away, but I wouldn’t be annoyed with the CO for my own lack of preparation - I’d probably be annoyed with myself though.

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58 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:


The point is there are plenty of caches that you can’t do if you’re unprepared.  Cache Type + D/T Ratings + Attributes + the Cache Description all help prepare you.  Of course it can be disappointing to have to walk away, but I wouldn’t be annoyed with the CO for my own lack of preparation - I’d probably be annoyed with myself though.

The D/T ratings help. The attributes don't, as I don't see them.

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7 hours ago, uberclimber said:
7 hours ago, terratin said:

But it sounds like you are destroying some other property. The wooden beam belongs to someone, right?

It belongs to the city, I guess. I'd debate whether drilling a hole is 'destroying' it...'damaging' at worst. And since the hole will have wood inside put back inside it (in the form of the dowel), is it really so bad?

But I take your point...and I do have some qualms and reservations on this point about the idea.

 

With local caching in the US, drilling holes in trees, beams or anything else on public property will cause the proposed cache to be rejected.  If unknown to the reviewer but later reported, it will be archived.

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Apart from attributes, most of the time needed tools are on the listing too. Now one could argue on older GPS's listings can't be read either. Preparation is key. When tools are needed for a series it will be on listing without mentioning what is needed where. A series we did a while ago also mentioned to bring a 5m fishingrod (the cache was hanging from a small branch) and that it was only needed for the first cache so it could be left in the car when biking/hiking the complete tour. Even then a few people mentioned not doing that cache as they didn't know they needed this tool.

 

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9 hours ago, uberclimber said:

 

10 hours ago, Keystone said:

This type of cache can be classified as a mystery cache or as a traditional cache with the field puzzle attribute.  The answer varies regionally or by hider. 

 

Most importantly, this cache must be classified as a "cache hidden with express permission of the landowner" - and stated as such on the cache page - since it violates the Geocache Hiding Guidelines as described.

I have no experience with caching outside Japan, NZ and Australia, so please re-educate me if I'm completely wrong about this, but I seriously doubt that everyone who hides a cache on public property 'gets permission from the agency or association that manages the land'. I'm 100% positive that the majority of caches hidden over here are done so on public property WITHOUT permission. And I'm yet to see a single cache over here with that disclaimer written on the page.

 

In many cases, the land manager has adopted a geocaching policy which requires an application for a permit.  In such cases, worldwide, the reviewers ask to confirm that the permit is in place.  In other cases, where there is no formal geocaching policy, the cache owner still obtains permission from the land manager, with varying degrees of formality.  In other cases, the cache owner doesn't say anything about permission, but the reviewer is able to assume that adequate permission is in place - like a cache hidden behind a boulder, in a clear plastic container.

 

Your cache design is nothing like any of these scenarios.  It is not reasonable for the reviewer to assume that permission is in place when the method of hiding directly contradicts the Hiding Guidelines.  Examples of this include caches that are buried, and caches which damage or deface a natural or man-made object in order to provide a clue or a hiding method.  This is why, more and more so, reviewers are asking hiders to provide more details about how and where the cache container is hidden.

 

A good rule of thumb for the "no defacing" guideline:  when you archive your cache and go to the site to remove everything you placed there, will there be any holes or marks left behind?  If yes, it fails the guideline. 

 

The only exception to this guideline is if express permission is in place.

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11 hours ago, uberclimber said:

 hole drilled into a nearby wooden beam.  BAD. EVEN WITH PERMISSION OF THE OWNER 

 

I wouldn't expect everyone to carry around a strong magnet,   A MAGNET SHOULD BE PART OF EVERY CACHER'S TOOL KIT

 

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6 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

In over 10,000 finds I can think of only once where a magnet was needed. The example I mentioned. So it's not something I routinely carry.

I'm still a long way from 10k finds, but I've found several where a magnet was needed. Sometimes the magnet was provided. Other times, the seeker had to bring a magnet. An one comes to mind where a magnet was attached to the cache, and the seeker had to provide something ferrous that the magnet would be attracted to. (I used my Letherman Micra.)

 

 

5 hours ago, frostengel said:

Just my suggestion: hide your own magnet (strong enough!) nearby and list those coordinates as stage 1 of a multi cache. The cachers find the tool there and the coordinates of the final - they may be engraved in the tool (which would be nice!). They take the magnet and use it to log the cache. Afterwards they bring it back.

I found a multi-cache like that. The first stage was a small reel of fishing line with a magnet attached. The final stage was nearby, and you needed to use the fishing line and magnet to retrieve the cache from inside a hollow tree. Both the cache and the tool survived very well with that design.

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6 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

A MAGNET SHOULD BE PART OF EVERY CACHER'S TOOL KIT

Meh... I can think of a lot more important things for a geocacher to have. I have a magnetic grabber, but it's in the category of TOTT that I bring with me only when I expect to use it. I certainly don't carry it with me whenever I'm geocaching.

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1 hour ago, wmpastor said:

 

With local caching in the US, drilling holes in trees, beams or anything else on public property will cause the proposed cache to be rejected.  If unknown to the reviewer but later reported, it will be archived.

 

9 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

 hole drilled into a nearby wooden beam.  BAD. EVEN WITH PERMISSION OF THE OWNER ...

 

I repeated my comment because it's a good, succinct summary.

 

Nan, I agree.  The practice I've seen here is - and this is a suggestion for the OP - is to *find an existing hole* and then *note in the description that it was preexisting.*  Reason?  A hole even with permission gives new players the impression that hole drilling is okay.

 

Edited by wmpastor
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22 minutes ago, NanCycle said:

A MAGNET SHOULD BE PART OF EVERY CACHER'S TOOL KIT

 

 If we carried everything we "might need" JIC, I'd definitely have to give up the UL backpacking I'm so fond of today.     :D

We try to decipher what's said in the description and take what might be needed each day out.

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1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:
2 hours ago, NanCycle said:

A MAGNET SHOULD BE PART OF EVERY CACHER'S TOOL KIT

 

 If we carried everything we "might need" JIC, I'd definitely have to give up the UL backpacking I'm so fond of today.     :D

We try to decipher what's said in the description and take what might be needed each day out.

 

Well said!  There's the "complete toolkit," that stays at home or maybe in the car, and then there's the "portable toolkit" or "today's toolkit" to carry based on anticipated needs.  The ultimate boundaries have been discussed before.

Edited by wmpastor
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All three of these extendable handle tools are in my everyday kit which is a small fanny pack.  The red one is made as a back scratcher but works very well for grabbing onto wires, strings, etc.  In case it's not obvious the others are a magnet and a mirror.  I do have larger tools also, that stay in the cachemobile until needed.

Tools.png

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18 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

My experience is that caches with field puzzles are listed as traditional here. 

Same here.

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