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terratin

Event with no participant: log or not?

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On 9/2/2020 at 10:23 AM, terratin said:

I've just had an event published for which I hope at least one other cacher will show up (of course with distancing and all). If nobody else shows up would you log your own event or just archive it unattended? My thought is that it's not really an event if nobody else is there and thus would not log it myself. Curious of your opinions on this.

 

As long as the event was in good faith and you had hoped and planned for other cachers to show up, I'd log is as attended. Its not your fault that other people didn't show up. 

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4 hours ago, Gill & Tony said:

Yes.  If you organize an event then, subject to unforseen circumstances (illness, injury etc) turn up.

 

I've had that happen as a potential attendee at an event in Cancun.  I *did* post a WA and the EO contacted me as soon as he found out that he wasn't going to be able to make it to Cancun.  His flight from France was cancelled.  He also had the event archived.

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4 hours ago, irisisleuk said:

So the 'will attend' is useless unless there is a maximum amount of people that can join , where it then would serve as a means to determine who is allowed to come?  

In other words: if nobody takes the effort on writing a 'will attend '' and I as an event owner would then decide to cancel the event since I don't want to go the event location and risk being on my own, then I, as an event owner, would be wrong to do this?

If you have limited capacity and you explain that you're depending on Will Attend logs, then they would be of some use. As niraD points out, they aren't perfect to get an accurate count, but as long as people logging WAs understand your requirement, WAs as a tool will work as well as anything else.

 

If you decide the event is not viable based on a lack of Will Attend logs, feel free to cancel. If someone doesn't post a WA, they can't really complain if you decide not to come yourself and archive the event before it happens.

 

Having said that, I almost never post Will Attend logs because I'm never really sure whether I'll attend. I think that is, to a large degree, because of the local culture. Events here are almost always casual, drop-in-if-you-feel like it affairs. As niraD explains, the local culture uses Will Attend more to give other people thinking about attending an idea about who will be there and less as a specific promise to the CO. It is never considered a reservation except in rare cases where that's explicitly spelled out in the event's description. I'm sure it makes a big difference that niraD and I are in the San Francisco Bay Area, so almost all events are outside in parks or other open areas where there's no limit to how many can attend. Even events at lunch spots can normally overflow outside. (Oh, my! For a second there I almost had put out of my mind entirely the new reality where events of any size are forbidden. But I guess we've all been doing that in this discussion.)

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1 hour ago, dprovan said:

I'm sure it makes a big difference that niraD and I are in the San Francisco Bay Area

For the record, I used to be in the San Francisco Bay Area. Now I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee. I haven't attended any events here though. As far as I can tell, they aren't allowed here yet either, although restaurants are open for indoor dining (with social distancing), and our Tennessee church has been holding indoor worship services (again, with social distancing).

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20 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I was one of those tourists who only saw the event after arriving. I logged a WA on a London event on the same day, just before attending, as I only learnt about the event after arriving in London, and found it was only 300 metres from where I was staying.

AttendedAttended

28/Apr/2015

It was fun to attend a London Event while I was here. I only found out about this event last night on my arrival in London, and with it being only about 300 metres from where I am staying, it was hard not to attend. Lovely to meet some locals and fellow travellers. I dropped off the 'Amazing Snowflake' TB and it was picked up by milloj from Sweden, who should be able to take it somewhere snowy.
Thank you goldpot for organising this event.

Same thing happened to us when we disembarked in Anchorage. We checked the internet the next morning and saw there was an event that day in a park a short distance from the hotel. We made it and there was a good crowd there including three cachers bringing "Greetings from Germany".:)

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17 hours ago, niraD said:

For the record, I used to be in the San Francisco Bay Area. Now I'm in Knoxville, Tennessee. I haven't attended any events here though. As far as I can tell, they aren't allowed here yet either, although restaurants are open for indoor dining (with social distancing), and our Tennessee church has been holding indoor worship services (again, with social distancing).

 

I didn't know that.  Tennessee is one of my favorite states.  My mother-n-law used to live in Johnson City.  Are the Tennessee Smokies playing baseball?  Went to one of their games last time I was there.   

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3 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

Are the Tennessee Smokies playing baseball?

I don't really follow sports (other than hockey, barely, because my wife is a Sharks fan), so I looked up their web site. It looks like there are no minor league games this season.

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Here's a theoretical question.  Let's say someone hosts a paddle event, T5, with the posted coordinates at the landing where the event participants are to gather.  A geocacher without a boat shows up at the coordinates at the start time of the event, hangs out for a short while, and then leaves.

a) Should that geocacher get to log the event because they were at the posted coordinates at the time of the event?

b) Should the geocacher not be able to log the event because the intention of the event was a paddle event?

 

Here's another theoretical question.  Let's say someone hosts a CITO event.  A geocacher shows up, says hi to everyone, and then leaves, without cleaning anything up.  

a) Should that geocacher get to log the event because they were at the posted coordinates at the time of the event?

b) Should the geocacher not be able to log the event because the intention of the event was a CITO?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Edited by GeoElmo6000

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25 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Here's a theoretical question.  Let's say someone hosts a paddle event, T5, with the posted coordinates at the landing where the event participants are to gather.  A geocacher without a boat shows up at the coordinates at the start time of the event, hangs out for a short while, and then leaves.

a) Should that geocacher get to log the event because they were at the posted coordinates at the time of the event?

Yes, because as far as Groundspeak is concerned, the event takes place for 30 minutes (or more) at the posted coordinates. The paddling that happens before (or after) is not part of the event.

 

25 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

b) Should the geocacher not be able to log the event because the intention of the event was a paddle event?

Groundspeak doesn't care about the intention. Moving events are not allowed. The event must take place at the posted coordinates, and anyone who arrives there can log it as Attended.

 

25 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Here's another theoretical question.  Let's say someone hosts a CITO event.  A geocacher shows up, says hi to everyone, and then leaves, without cleaning anything up.  

a) Should that geocacher get to log the event because they were at the posted coordinates at the time of the event?

b) Should the geocacher not be able to log the event because the intention of the event was a CITO?

Ditto.

 

What happens if folks arrive at the CITO event and there isn't enough CITO work to do to keep them all busy for 30 minutes (or however long the event is scheduled to last)? Same thing.

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40 minutes ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

Here's a theoretical question.  Let's say someone hosts a paddle event, T5, with the posted coordinates at the landing where the event participants are to gather.  A geocacher without a boat shows up at the coordinates at the start time of the event, hangs out for a short while, and then leaves.

a) Should that geocacher get to log the event because they were at the posted coordinates at the time of the event?

b) Should the geocacher not be able to log the event because the intention of the event was a paddle event?

This is a classic and well understood example, and niraD has explained the legalities of it. I just want to add that the geocacher not going on the trip is just his loss. Instead of seeing this as some kind of unfair Attended grab, be happy that he found some small solace by logging the Attended even though he didn't get to go on the trip. And use the opportunity. Next time, contact him in advance and ask if you should bring an extra boat for him.

 

Personally, I think your idea of having an event that really is the trip is perfectly reasonable, and I would rather GS didn't implement the rules that requires the starting point as the only part that's officially part of the event. But, having said that, GS's reasons for doing what they've done come out in this example. If you were allowed to deny the Attended because he didn't go on the trip, that would be exclusionary. The current rules try to make all events *include* anyone that attends: you include him in the event, include him in the preparations, and perhaps that will encourage him to join the trip in next time. I'm sure that, if the rules were different, you'd still make the person showing up for the event yet unable to participate welcome and use your charm and wit to encourage them to come along next time. But the rules are designed for lesser event owners because the event system itself makes it hard not to be accepting. The cost of letting someone who doesn't paddle along log Attended strikes me as insignificant.

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2 hours ago, niraD said:

I don't really follow sports (other than hockey, barely, because my wife is a Sharks fan), so I looked up their web site. It looks like there are no minor league games this season.

 

Now she can also root for the Nashville Predators.  Looks like there is a minor league team called the Knoxville Ice Bears and there's a cache at the rink where they play: https://coord.info/GC5T28H

 

My favorite team, the New York Islanders, lost the eastern conference championship series last night.  That means two of my least favorite teams,  Tampa and Dallas, will be playing for the Stanley cup.  I wasn't always an Islanders fan, but a player that watched at Cornell for four years (I've been a season ticket holder for 10 years) that I've me got traded to the Islanders near the beginning of the season and got his NHL debut with the team.  The 2019-2020 season ended for the Cornell team just before the NCAA tournament due to the pandemic.  Both the mens and womens teams were ranked #1 in the country.  There's also a cache outside the rink where the Cornell team plays: https://coord.info/GC65GBC

 

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3 hours ago, dprovan said:

Personally, I think your idea of having an event that really is the trip is perfectly reasonable, and I would rather GS didn't implement the rules that requires the starting point as the only part that's officially part of the event. But, having said that, GS's reasons for doing what they've done come out in this example. If you were allowed to deny the Attended because he didn't go on the trip, that would be exclusionary. The current rules try to make all events *include* anyone that attends: you include him in the event, include him in the preparations, and perhaps that will encourage him to join the trip in next time. I'm sure that, if the rules were different, you'd still make the person showing up for the event yet unable to participate welcome and use your charm and wit to encourage them to come along next time. But the rules are designed for lesser event owners because the event system itself makes it hard not to be accepting. The cost of letting someone who doesn't paddle along log Attended strikes me as insignificant.

 

The other option is to put the event's listed coordinates as the paddle's destination, assuming that's somewhere only accessible by water (an island, perhaps), and list the starting point as parking coordinates. I did something similar with a hiking event where the listed coordinates were at a picnic area at the destination of the hike (GC6RY43). The start time and duration have to be the period of time you'll actually be at the destination, though, not the time you leave the starting point.

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2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The other option is to put the event's listed coordinates as the paddle's destination, assuming that's somewhere only accessible by water (an island, perhaps), and list the starting point as parking coordinates. I did something similar with a hiking event where the listed coordinates were at a picnic area at the destination of the hike (GC6RY43). The start time and duration have to be the period of time you'll actually be at the destination, though, not the time you leave the starting point.

I do like the option of a destination event, but I thought it wasn't allowed. Something about events having to be T1? I don't know what I'm remembering, and I don't see anything about it in the guidelines, so maybe it was just part of the discussion that never actually got codified back when they reorganized the event rules to prohibit flash mobs.

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23 minutes ago, dprovan said:

I do like the option of a destination event, but I thought it wasn't allowed. Something about events having to be T1? I don't know what I'm remembering, and I don't see anything about it in the guidelines, so maybe it was just part of the discussion that never actually got codified back when they reorganized the event rules to prohibit flash mobs.

 

Late last year I attended a T5 CITO (GC8GYNP) which was about cleaning up the mangroves along a section of the local waterways, and a T2 event in October last year (GC8DY1K), so yeah, I think that might have just been something tossed around in discussions a few years back.

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My brother, sister and nephew went to an event in Thailand.  The event owner never showed up.  Must have been late on the flight from Vietnam.  Though the Event Owner did log the attended, even though he missed the time frame.

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On 9/17/2020 at 4:05 AM, irisisleuk said:

There was another option which I see nobody mentioned: cancel/archive the event a day before if nobody posted a 'will attend'-log.

 

I've noticed that geocachers seem to be kind of lazy with posting 'will attend'-logs (they could even log: I'm not sure if I will make it but I will try to make it happen) when there is no maximum of people stated. I feel that in the past it was more common to inform an organizer that you intend to attend, but nowadays people don't want to commit, although it isn't even a real commitment with consequences. They expect the event will take place anyway, so they show up or not, decide on the day itself. If there is no need to post a will attend, why would you? 

 

It's kind of the opposite for many here - post a WA log even if you think you might show up. I think it depends on the nature of the event. Most people who are a WA 'maybe' do actually follow up if they have to cancel (though it's about half and half those who delete their WA vs those who only write a note and leave the WA).

This is one of those 'no rule either way' things, so you can only hope people (cachers and hosts) act within reason and consideration for others in context.

 

 

On 9/17/2020 at 7:48 AM, irisisleuk said:

if nobody takes the effort on writing a 'will attend '' and I as an event owner would then decide to cancel the event since I don't want to go the event location and risk being on my own, then I, as an event owner, would be wrong to do this?

 

Nope. It might get some ire from people who were planning to attend but chose not to or forgot to post a WA log since they're not required to - but ultimately that's on them. It's especially okay for you if you've requested people post WA logs and state in the description that there need to be attendees for it to happen, or numbers are necessary for reservations, or the nature of the event requires attendees (more than 1, assumedly being yourself). 

 

 

On 9/17/2020 at 9:07 AM, barefootjeff said:
On 9/17/2020 at 8:55 AM, niraD said:

Will Attend is good for letting your friends know that you're planning to see them at the event. And IIRC, Will Attend turns on certain reminders that might be convenient for you, the person who logged Will Attend.

 

Once you've logged a Will Attend, you'll also get emails of any announcements the owner might make.

 

Yep, and this is a HUGE benefit of logging WAs. You could Watch the listing, but you'd also get notification for every log. If you're a maybe or definite, a WA lets you be in on announcements and not get spammed with other activity (especially useful for mega/giga events).

 

 

On 9/18/2020 at 4:21 PM, barefootjeff said:

The other option is to put the event's listed coordinates as the paddle's destination, assuming that's somewhere only accessible by water (an island, perhaps), and list the starting point as parking coordinates

 

I just attended a CITO that was just that, a 1/5. The event was on a long island beach you need a boat to get to.

 

 

21 hours ago, dprovan said:

I do like the option of a destination event, but I thought it wasn't allowed. Something about events having to be T1?

 

I thought so too but I think it's D1 required now.

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On 9/18/2020 at 5:49 PM, dprovan said:

I do like the option of a destination event, but I thought it wasn't allowed. Something about events having to be T1? I don't know what I'm remembering, and I don't see anything about it in the guidelines, so maybe it was just part of the discussion that never actually got codified back when they reorganized the event rules to prohibit flash mobs.

I vaguely remember a discussion like you describe, but I recall the issue being related to Difficulty ratings. I believe the current Guidelines can be surmised as: All events are D1, while the T rating is reflective of the location. 

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On 9/18/2020 at 3:49 PM, dprovan said:

I do like the option of a destination event, but I thought it wasn't allowed. Something about events having to be T1? I don't know what I'm remembering, and I don't see anything about it in the guidelines, so maybe it was just part of the discussion that never actually got codified back when they reorganized the event rules to prohibit flash mobs.

 

The Help system isn't always the easiest place to find things, but it does contain lots of helpful information. Third word of the last sentence is the curve ball.

3.5. Can I hold a geocaching event while on vacation?

It depends on the region

An Event Cache is a gathering of geocachers, focusing on the social aspect of geocaching. In some situations an event while traveling is a great way to meet the local geocachers. In regions that don’t have a local geocaching population however, vacation events often don’t see any attendance except for the geocachers holding the event. Therefore, reviewers may (my emphasis) limit the number of Events during a vacation to ensure the social aspect of geocaching is met.

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I had one holiday event disallowed by a reviewer, at Alotau in PNG.  The only cache in the area is an earthcache in the middle of the bay.  There is no local caching community and the reviewer said "No".  There was a cruise ship full of passengers going there and I hoped some other cachers would be on board, but it couldn't happen.

 

I have had one, on the shores of the Dead Sea, allowed where no other people turned up.   That was allowed because it is a popular tourist area and there are some other caches in the area, so I logged it despite being the only attendee.

 

If a reviewer says yes, that's cool.  If the answer is "No", I ain't gonna argue..

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Gill & Tony said:

Alotau in PNG

My meet-up there (February this year) was refused too, by HQ. I too hoped to meet another geocacher aboard, and had placed a notice on the noticeboard, but not everyone would check that. Some might not even know there is a notice board. But they hopefully would see the meet and greet.

 

15 minutes ago, Gill & Tony said:

The only cache in the area is an earthcache in the middle of the bay.

At least that's a large bay.

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