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Multiple logs = Single FTF or Multiple FTF's???

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8 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Also what about when more than one person spots it at the same time?

Under some people's idea of only one FTF, do they have to toss for who can claim it.

 

No...who had it in their hand first ?   This is simple to comprehend...  

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5 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

No...who had it in their hand first ?   This is simple to comprehend...

 

Not necessarily, there are caches that have some trick to opening them, where you have to twist, turn, pull and push, solve a cryptex or find a secret panel to slide open. I could imagine a group of potential FTFers passing it around to each other as each tries to open it, with the one who succeeds claiming FTF bragging rights, or even walking away with a DNF.

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29 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Not necessarily, there are caches that have some trick to opening them, where you have to twist, turn, pull and push, solve a cryptex or find a secret panel to slide open. I could imagine a group of potential FTFers passing it around to each other as each tries to open it, with the one who succeeds claiming FTF bragging rights, or even walking away with a DNF.

I've also seen caches where you need two people working together to retrieve them. Or caches like bear-bag caches where the person operating the mechanism is not going to be able to retrieve the the cache first (unless the others let him). I would expect groups of FTFers to agree to work together and share the FTF on such caches, rather than squabbling over who gets to have the container in hand first.

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10 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

No...who had it in their hand first ?   This is simple to comprehend...  

So it's okay for one person to find it, but after reaching for it another sees where they are reaching and snatches it first. First to get their hands on it. Nice...not!

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5 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

So it's okay for one person to find it, but after reaching for it another sees where they are reaching and snatches it first. First to get their hands on it. Nice...not!

 

Where did all those "nice friendly cachers"  who gladly share FTF go? :ph34r:

Edited by on4bam
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53 minutes ago, on4bam said:

 

Where did all those "nice friendly cachers"  who gladly share FTF go? :ph34r:

They are where I live. I have shared FTFs and no one has shown a problem with it. Not that I get many FTFs these days, as I don't live with my phone on my hip to get notices. In fact, the data on my phone is not even turned on most of the time. I often see FTF shared logs though, so people are still sharing the find.

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Just now, Goldenwattle said:

They are where I live. I have shared FTFs and no one has shown a problem with it. Not that I get many FTFs these days, as I don't live with my phone on my hip to get notices. In fact, the data on my phone is not even turned on most of the time. I often see FTF shared logs though, so people are still sharing the find.

 

Then why argue people will "snatch" a cache out of another cacher's hands? To back up the "share FTF" agrgument?

 

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2 hours ago, on4bam said:

 

Then why argue people will "snatch" a cache out of another cacher's hands? To back up the "share FTF" agrgument?

 

 

I'm really not sure where you're going with this.  We're friendly cachers.  We like an FTF.  We're looking for caches, not awkward confrontations / arguments at GZ.  We were all there.  We all looked.  We all share the FTF.

 

(For the 'irks' thread I guess, but it really irks me that others seem to insinuate that this behaviour is somehow unethical, or that we're gaming the system.  If someone present chooses not to claim a joint-FTF for whatever reason, that's fine too.)

Edited by IceColdUK
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37 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:

I'm really not sure where you're going with this.

 

Claim 1. We're all friendly cachers and share FTF.

Claim 2. If only the first one to have the cache/log in hand is FTF people will "snatch it first"

 

You can't have both. In any case, if "2" it's obvious that some think sharing FTF is OK when they are not the first to have the cache in their hands but if FTF is not shared people will "fight" (snatch) over it.

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Is it Ground Hog Day? Again?

Edited by colleda
typo
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1 hour ago, on4bam said:

some think sharing FTF is OK when they are not the first to have the cache in their hands but if FTF is not shared people will "fight" (snatch) over it

 

From this thread, it seems that the only people that think it's wrong to share an FTF are those that aren't really interested in FTFs.  They seem to classify those of us that are, as competitive, yet don't understand that we're more than happy to put any competition aside to share the spoils - whether we are the first to put our hands on the cache or not.  (This isn't F1.  It's a hobby.)

 

I didn't use the word 'snatch', though I did mention 'elbows': 

 

Quote

If only one person was 'allowed' to claim an FTF, that would just introduce such a weird element of competition at GZ.  Some would be all elbows trying to get there first, while politer / less-competitive cachers would be standing back, saying 'after you', as the cache is found in the only place it could possibly be hidden!  That would just seem bizarre to me.

 

Most of my shared FTFs (at a rough count, 65) have been on trips that I've arranged with a caching buddy or two - normally to find puzzle caches that we've collaborated on.  If shared FTFs were to be 'outlawed', I honestly can't imagine how it would affect the group dynamic in situations like these.  Fortunately, I don't have to.

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6 hours ago, on4bam said:

 

Then why argue people will "snatch" a cache out of another cacher's hands? To back up the "share FTF" agrgument?

 

It was to the suggestion that only one of the finders can log a FTF.

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On 9/2/2020 at 12:16 AM, Goldenwattle said:
On 9/2/2020 at 12:05 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Pistols at 20 paces.

That'd work :laughing:.

A new meaning to sudden death playoff?

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15 hours ago, on4bam said:

 

Where did all those "nice friendly cachers"  who gladly share FTF go? :ph34r:

Still here, just not rising to your obvious trolling.

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21 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

I didn't use the word 'snatch', though I did mention 'elbows':

 

It was wording used by Goldenwattle

 

11 hours ago, funkymunkyzone said:

Still here, just not rising to your obvious trolling.

 

Nope.

From the other posts it's clear some think that when FTF is not shared being nice and friendly is over.

Glad I'm not into FTF's, in fact, we tend the wait until after the "big rush" is over for new caches.

 

Anecdote: Years ago a cache was published that was just a few 100 meter from home. I went out and arrived at the same time as another cacher and we stared to look for the container. He got it first, logged FTF and I logged STF. Should we have both logged FTF? He found it first, not?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, on4bam said:

Anecdote: Years ago a cache was published that was just a few 100 meter from home. I went out and arrived at the same time as another cacher and we stared to look for the container. He got it first, logged FTF and I logged STF. Should we have both logged FTF? He found it first, not?

 

Only if the two of you talked about it and agreed to it.  Despite your attempt to make this an either/or proposition, in many places cachers are willing to share the FTF.  It just depends upon the situation of those involved and whether or not they are amenable to sharing or want to claim it for themselves.  I've been on both ends - mutually agreed upon shared FTF and someone unwilling to share the FTF.  I'm perfectly fine sharing a FTF within a group, even if I'm the one to find it and I'm also perfectly fine if someone within the group wants sole proprietorship of the FTF since they were the ones to find it.

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4 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

 

Only if the two of you talked about it and agreed to it.

 

It didn't even come up. Just logic. He FTF'd it, not me.

It also beats the "team" argument. We arrived simultaneously but were no team. In fact we've never met again.

 

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49 minutes ago, on4bam said:

 

It didn't even come up. Just logic. He FTF'd it, not me.

It also beats the "team" argument. We arrived simultaneously but were no team. In fact we've never met again.

 

 

Again, just because it works that way in your neck of the woods does NOT mean that it works that way everywhere.  Just as terrain ratings differ based on the general topographical features one area has that others do not, there are various ways that FTFs are determined.  You believe it's a black and white, clearcut determination, whereby only one person is entitled to the FTF. There are many of us here who have pointed out that while this is certainly a possibility (and one that is valid), it's not the ONLY way to determine who may or may not lay claim to the FTF and that a group of cachers, regardless of whether or not they know each other, can discuss it and come to some arrangement that each cacher can abide by.  Sometimes that may mean a singular FTF and other times it may mean a shared FTF.  We're not asking you to change your determination of who may claim a FTF.  We're only pointing out that cachers in other areas have come up with some other solution that appears to work and co-exist within each others' manner of playing.  If it happens not to work, then it reverts to the manner in which you play, which is perfectly fine as well.

 

The fact that it didn't even come up seems a bit odd to me as, at least in my area, cachers tend to be talkative when running into other cachers, even if we don't know each other, be it at events or at a cache.  We realize we're part of a community and socialize as such, which typically means that a P&G can turn into a 5-10 minute meet and greet.  It doesn't always happen that way but more often than not, it does.  Having managed quite a few FTFs, I can only think of one time when another cacher (or group of cachers) didn't talk about the FTF.  There used to be 4 of us that were serious FTF seekers during my first couple of years of caching and we'd continuously run into each other at newly published caches or just miss out running into each other.  Each time we did actually meet up at a newly published cache, we discussed who was going to claim the FTF if it was found with more than one of us at GZ.  The longer this went on, the more it changed to a shared FTF style of play, except when the other cacher requested they be the one to claim the FTF (for whatever reason).  I (and hopefully the others who feel as I do) am NOT telling you that you need to change your style of play.  What we hope you realize is that your way isn't the only way and that both styles can co-exist.  Logically, it may not make any sense to you but for those of us who choose to play this way, we're fine with this determination of whether or not we are willing to share a FTF.

 

Beats?  Are you trying to win something here?  We're discussing various methods of determining how cachers rectify FTFs and throwing out, in essence, two different variations of how cachers determine who gets to claim the FTF.  Your way is certainly a valid way.  No one here is really disputing that (at least I don't think so).  Since it's not a recognized thing by GS and there are no guidelines that specify exactly how a FTF is awarded (first to put hands on it, first to find it [someone else may have unknowingly touched it without realizing it was the cache], first to sign the log), we are left to our own devices and those of us who feel like a shared FTF is a valid decision are comfortable with that decision, assuming everyone else at the cache is fine with it as well.  If not everyone agrees, then we arrive at some consensus that allows a singular FTF and that's usually the one who pulls it from the hiding spot, although I can think of one instance when it was the first person that actually saw it but was unable to retrieve it due to physical limitations.

Edited by coachstahly
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6 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

The fact that it didn't even come up seems a bit odd to me as, at least in my area, cachers tend to be talkative when running into other cachers, even if we don't know each other,

 

We did talk a while but I didn't ask to be 'joined FTF" and he didn't. The reason? It's not important. When meeting other cachers we always have talks about each other's caching experiences and more importantly about nice caches. When meeting cachers along a series though we tend to wait a while so others can enjoy finding the containers themselves or if we are on our bikes we try to get ahead far enough.

 

6 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

Beats?  Are you trying to win something here?

Nope. But I see a "team" as people who know each other and make arrangements beforehand, not people who accidentally meet at a cache and "team up" to be FTF.

 

Besides, did I miss a memo? Is there something to be won? (besides FTF ;) )

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2 hours ago, on4bam said:

 ... people who accidentally meet at a cache and "team up" to be FTF.

 

The times we've met other cachers out looking for a newly published cache, we each sign the log individually, and claim co-FTF - we don't sign a team name, we don't consider ourselves a "team" - we just all share the FTF, each of us (that desire to record it that way)  log {FTF} or our chosen deisgnation so that Project-GC  can recognize it for our own personal stats. And that means nothing to anyone but us, and counts for nothing official - it's simply a side game that makes things interesting at times.

 

If someone is insistent that they are the only FTF, I'm OK to let it go, and let them.  But honestly, in my (admittedly) limited experience, I have never some across anyone that insisted on being the one and only FTF.  Most of my FTF's are shared with my partner/husband, and quite often there are others involved as well.

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3 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

But honestly, in my (admittedly) limited experience, I have never some across anyone that insisted on being the one and only FTF.  Most of my FTF's are shared with my partner/husband, and quite often there are others involved as well.

 

Maybe it's a join-date thing ?  :)   

We have a shared account, but if the other 2/3rds thought I was gonna compete, you could bet  that stat-crazed as she was, she'd use her own account (created for coins). :D

 

We noticed around  2009 that most caches no longer included prizes, and many cachers were more interested in stats.

Now that stats is such a big thing,  I'm kinda surprised that "shared" is a norm in some areas.

When we first started caches and cachers were few, and most COs here left some decent FTF prizes just so someone would show.  

It was mentioned at an event once that the local "FTF King" (that the other 2/3rds dethroned...) said he hadn't paid for gas in months.

I felt guilty in NJ once,  an upscale neighborhood park that had a box with almost 100 bucks worth of gift cards n stuff as a FTF prize.

 -  Took a gift card, and left the rest for 2nd n 3rd TF.   This was our third cache in this park.   We went FTF in NJ a lot after that...     :laughing:

 

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2 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Now that stats is such a big thing,  I'm kinda surprised that "shared" is a norm in some areas.

 

 

I wouldn't say stats is a big thing with most of the cachers I know; most are young families or retirees who cache for some outdoor enjoyment. Maybe it's because there aren't enough caches locally to satisfy a stats chaser, or maybe it's the other way around and the reason we don't have any power trails in this region is that there's no-one motivated enough by stats to create one.

 

2 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

When we first started caches and cachers were few, and most COs here left some decent FTF prizes just so someone would show.  

It was mentioned at an event once that the local "FTF King" (that the other 2/3rds dethroned...) said he hadn't paid for gas in months.

I felt guilty in NJ once,  an upscale neighborhood park that had a box with almost 100 bucks worth of gift cards n stuff as a FTF prize.

 -  Took a gift card, and left the rest for 2nd n 3rd TF.   This was our third cache in this park.   We went FTF in NJ a lot after that...     :laughing:

 

 

I'm pretty sure the only prizes I've seen in caches have been FTF certificates or unactivated geocoins/TB tags. To me, having valuable FTF prizes would debase the spirit of the game, where the reward is the joy of overcoming whatever obstacles the CO has placed, the experiences had along the way and the strong sense of community that flows from that. For now at least, caching offers an escape from the constant greed is good mantra of modern life.

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8 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

I'm pretty sure the only prizes I've seen in caches have been FTF certificates or unactivated geocoins/TB tags. 

 

Guess you missed including the part about join dates...    '13 was way-past that time frame.     :D

I've cached with a few here in these forums, and know they've seen the same years ago.      Things change...

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8 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

But honestly, in my (admittedly) limited experience, I have never some across anyone that insisted on being the one and only FTF.

Neither have I. Everyone has been happy to share.

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20 hours ago, cerberus1 said:
On 9/4/2020 at 8:33 AM, CAVinoGal said:

But honestly, in my (admittedly) limited experience, I have never some across anyone that insisted on being the one and only FTF.  Most of my FTF's are shared with my partner/husband, and quite often there are others involved as well.

 

Maybe it's a join-date thing ?  :)   

We have a shared account, but if the other 2/3rds thought I was gonna compete, you could bet  that stat-crazed as she was, she'd use her own account (created for coins).

 

Let me clarify - my husband and I each have our own account - we cache together most of the time but each record finds on our own account - we do cache separately on occasion and our find counts do differ.  It's a friendly game between us - leapfrogging our find counts.  When I say "shared" FTF - we each claim {FTF} on our own account, and I note it was a co-FTF with my partner, and he does likewise.  So on our FTF hunts, there are "multiple" FTF's claimed (at least 2 each time!)

 

Then there's the practice locally of awarding unpublished caches as prizes at events (when we used to have them) - and so there are both Pre-publication FTF's and Post-publication FTF's - and many locals (myself included) add the {FTF} designation on our logs , Pre and Post publication, to be recognized by PojectGC.  I'm not a numbers hound, but FTF is a side game played locally, and we are part of this local "culture" among the geocaching folks, we play along, and it's all fun.  We don't drop everything and rush out when we get a notification, but we have taken the step to notify us of the new caches published, and if it's close enough and convenient at the time, yeah, we'll try for the FTF.  We've been successful more often than not, and that IS fun!

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7 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

Then there's the practice locally of awarding unpublished caches as prizes at events

I find that so strange. 

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20 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I find that so strange. 

I do too. But I'm not going to complain about it.

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