Geocacher with hides in Multiple Countries

[+Geo-Sarge]

I have a question on the policy for a Geocacher listing caches on his profile that was clearly not hidden by the individual. The individual lives in Ohio and he is actively soliciting other cachers to place a container and email him the coordinates and then submitting the cache under his profile. You will find his cache hides listed in several states and several countries. There is clearly no way for these caches to be properly maintained. The cacher, "DoctorAlien" has 995 hides showing on his profile.

 

This is from the guidelines for hiding a container

Maintain geocache container

To keep the geocache in proper working order, the cache owner must

• Visit the geocache regularly.
• Fix reported problems (such as replace full or wet logbook, replace broken or missing container).
• Make sure the location is appropriate and change it if necessary.
• Remove the geocache container and any physical stages within 60 days after the cache page is archived.

Cache owners who do not maintain their existing caches in a timely manner may temporarily or permanently lose the right to list new caches on Geocaching.com.

 

How is it even possible for DoctorAlien to follow these guidelines

 

My question is why is this permitted? This cacher lives in Ohio clearly can not maintain these caches and he has clearly not traveled to these other countries

 

A cacher from Team Sagebrush did the exact samething and his account was revoked by Groundspeak.

 

So my questioon is simple, why is this being allowed by Groundspeak and why are the reviewers allowing these to be published? It looks as if the rewuewers are giving this cacher preferential treatment becaue they are friends. If that is what is happenng then perhaps the reviewers need to be revaluated for suitablty to be a reviewer

 

Below from his profile is a sample of those caches and the counties where they are hidden

 

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #958
by DoctorAlien | GC8VN86 | California

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #819
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQR2 | Ohio

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #841
by Dr. Alien | GC8VGG0 | Florida

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #835
by Dr. Alien | GC8V5F4 | Michigan

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #834
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQV1 | Southern England, United Kingdom

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #826
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQT9 | Maine

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #830
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQTQ | Ontario, Canada

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #826
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQT9 | Maine

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #823
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQRK | Pennsylvania

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #811
by Dr. Alien | GC8TCVF | Oslo, Norway

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #801
by Dr. Alien | GC8T07V | Washington

r. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #768
by Dr. Alien | GC8RXY7 | Texas

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #754
by Dr. Alien | GC8RNP5 | Leiria, Portugal

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #702
by Dr. Alien | GC8RFEN | Utah

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #697
by Dr. Alien | GC8RE54 | Iowa

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #680
by Dr. Alien | GC8RC3F | West Virginia

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #670
by Dr. Alien | GC8RA68 | New South Wales, Australia

[+Max and 99]

33 minutes ago, Geo-Sarge said:

I have a question on the policy for a Geocacher listing caches on his profile that was clearly not hidden by the individual. The individual lives in Ohio and he is actively soliciting other cachers to place a container and email him the coordinates and then submitting the cache under his profile. You will find his cache hides listed in several states and several countries. There is clearly no way for these caches to be properly maintained. The cacher, "DoctorAlien" has 995 hides showing on his profile.

 

This is from the guidelines for hiding a container

Maintain geocache container

To keep the geocache in proper working order, the cache owner must

• Visit the geocache regularly.
• Fix reported problems (such as replace full or wet logbook, replace broken or missing container).
• Make sure the location is appropriate and change it if necessary.
• Remove the geocache container and any physical stages within 60 days after the cache page is archived.

Cache owners who do not maintain their existing caches in a timely manner may temporarily or permanently lose the right to list new caches on Geocaching.com.

 

How is it even possible for DoctorAlien to follow these guidelines

 

My question is why is this permitted? This cacher lives in Ohio clearly can not maintain these caches and he has clearly not traveled to these other countries

 

A cacher from Team Sagebrush did the exact samething and his account was revoked by Groundspeak.

 

So my questioon is simple, why is this being allowed by Groundspeak and why are the reviewers allowing these to be published? It looks as if the rewuewers are giving this cacher preferential treatment becaue they are friends. If that is what is happenng then perhaps the reviewers need to be revaluated for suitablty to be a reviewer

 

Below from his profile is a sample of those caches and the counties where they are hidden

 

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #958
by DoctorAlien | GC8VN86 | California

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #819
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQR2 | Ohio

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #841
by Dr. Alien | GC8VGG0 | Florida

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #835
by Dr. Alien | GC8V5F4 | Michigan

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #834
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQV1 | Southern England, United Kingdom

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #826
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQT9 | Maine

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #830
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQTQ | Ontario, Canada

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #826
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQT9 | Maine

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #823
by Dr. Alien | GC8TQRK | Pennsylvania

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #811
by Dr. Alien | GC8TCVF | Oslo, Norway

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #801
by Dr. Alien | GC8T07V | Washington

r. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #768
by Dr. Alien | GC8RXY7 | Texas

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #754
by Dr. Alien | GC8RNP5 | Leiria, Portugal

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #702
by Dr. Alien | GC8RFEN | Utah

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #697
by Dr. Alien | GC8RE54 | Iowa

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #680
by Dr. Alien | GC8RC3F | West Virginia

Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time #670
by Dr. Alien | GC8RA68 | New South Wales, Australia

Dr. Allen may have convinced a reviewer of a maintenance plan for each of those caches.  Possible?

This is just my opinion, but these hides seem to circumvent the guideline.

[+Goldenwattle]

I know another cacher with a series of hides all over the place, most in Australia, but some in other countries. I think they placed the first caches in their series before the 161 metre rule existed (or was so strongly enforced), and they must have travelled in their job a fair bit. This series became known and I don't know if the CO has personally placed another cache for years, but other cachers have placed caches in this series and the original CO registers them under their name. They manage this, because they have someone to look after these new caches for them. That's how I imagine these caches work; there is someone else who agrees to do the maintenance.

[+niraD]

3 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Dr. Allen may have convinced a reviewer of a maintenance plan for each of those caches.  Possible?

This is just my opinion, but these hides seem to circumvent the guideline.

Or maybe Dr. Alien is a group or organization. I've seen groups and organizations set up an account for caches that they own and maintain. The maintenance plans may not be exactly the same as an individual's maintenance plan.

[+TmdAndGG]

Or maybe Dr. Alien really is an alien who is using his spaceship to go around and hide and maintain his caches, and supernatural alien powers to temporarily mind-control the reviewer in order to get his hides published. Based on his profile photo it seems pretty likely. Just a thought

Edited July 19, 2020 by TmdAndGG

[+Max and 99]

23 minutes ago, niraD said:

Or maybe Dr. Alien is a group or organization. I've seen groups and organizations set up an account for caches that they own and maintain. The maintenance plans may not be exactly the same as an individual's maintenance plan.

Well that's interesting! 

[+CAVinoGal]

Hmmmmm, all with a hidden date of 1-1-2020, but published dates from 1-25-20 to 6-29-20.  

[Keystone]

Each of the caches in this series is hidden by a local geocacher on behalf of the Dr. Alien account.  The identity of the local hider/maintainer is disclosed privately to the reviewer prior to publication.  When a cache has an adequate maintenance plan, it's published.

[+JL_HSTRE]

I saw one of these pop up in my area, but I didn't know what the deal was.

 

The name "Most Awesome Caches of All Time" is ironic since the one near me had a bare bones description and, IIRC, was a cap-n-cap.

 

Perhaps if you view all 1000 on a map without any other caches it forms the world's largest geoart, in the shape of an alien or flying saucer?

 

Whatever the case it seems like another gimmick to justify numbers spew.

[+Max and 99]

26 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Each of the caches in this series is hidden by a local geocacher on behalf of the Dr. Alien account.  The identity of the local hider/maintainer is disclosed privately to the reviewer prior to publication.  When a cache has an adequate maintenance plan, it's published.

I suspect my invite got lost in the mail. What an epic cache series to be part of!

[+Geo-Sarge]

3 hours ago, Keystone said:

Each of the caches in this series is hidden by a local geocacher on behalf of the Dr. Alien account.  The identity of the local hider/maintainer is disclosed privately to the reviewer prior to publication.  When a cache has an adequate maintenance plan, it's published.

I'm going to have to still believe that this is nothing more than a pad the numbers gimmic. The standard Team Sagebrush was held to is clearly a different standard than being used for this account. The cache page clearly reads "This cahe was placed for Midwest Geobash 2020"  How does a cache placed under this account in Leiria, Portugal have any remote connection to a an event held in Fulton County Ohio?

Edited July 19, 2020 by Geo-Sarge

[Darwin473]

Maybe it's in the lead up to the next Amazing Race season, when filming starts again?

[+niraD]

[never mind]

Edited July 19, 2020 by niraD
I had misread the post that I replied to...

[+Wacka]

I know of a cacher  that has caches all over the US and several different countries.  He's a lawyer and travels extensively.  He has people maintain his caches  in each location. The one in my area is  near the airport. I volunteered to help, but he has someone already looking after that one.

[+Hügh]

Though the question about this specific user’s hiding practices has been answered above, generally, people hiding caches far from home submit a “maintenance plan“ to the reviewer. For example, they might have a family member/friend (or in this case, geocacher) living near the location that has volunteered to act as steward. 
 

10 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

I'm going to have to still believe that this is nothing more than a pad the numbers gimmic.

 

That's exactly what this is - but no rules have been broken, so it's allowed.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Hügh

[+Geo-Sarge]

Looking at all the hides on this account one can not actually believe that there will be cachers to take proper care of these caches. The Ohio cacher that is posting new caches under the name DoctorAlien is the lead person on the committee that hosts the MidWest Geobash (MWGB). And if I dig deap enough we will probably find that reviewers are also in the same group of people that organize and host MWGB. This would mean that the MWGB organizers are publishing theses caches worldwide without actually following this questionable quideline of an "arranged maintenance plan". That guide line was probably put into place so a cacher could have a hide in a location where a friend or family member would actually maintain the cache. I do not believe it was put into place so an event organizer for an Ohio event (MWGB) could have 995 caches worldwide. Reading the cache description these were all placed for the MWGB. Looking at the placed dates and published dates also leads you to believe that something is going on other than other cachers across the world have all decided that out of the goodness of their heart they are going to maintain caches for someone they don't know.  The Doctor Alien account really needs to be looked at closely by Groundspeak, and by Groundspeak I do not mean the local reviewers. This account is clearly abusing an exception to the hiding guidelines and is being permitted by the local reviewers, some of which are in the MWGB planning committee.

 

I still would like to know the difference between this and what Team Sagebrush did that caused Team Sagebrush  to have his account removed. This is far more.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Geo-Sarge
Spelling correction

[+L0ne.R]

14 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Whatever the case it seems like another gimmick to justify numbers spew.

 

12 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

I'm going to have to still believe that this is nothing more than a pad the numbers gimmic.

 

4 minutes ago, Geo-Sarge said:

This would mean that the MWGB organizers are publishing theses caches worldwide without actually following the this questionable quideline of an "arranged maintenance plan".

 

All of this.^

 

It appears that set-em-and-forget-em behaviour is now overtly sanctioned by GCHQ and reviewers. 

 

1 hour ago, Hügh said:

That's exactly what this is - but no rules have been broken, so it's allowed.

 

GCHQ found their own loophole to drive this through.  Opening the doors to more and more "Aunt Martha"-maintenance. The maintenance plan is purposely hidden, not transparent. 

 

14 hours ago, Keystone said:

The identity of the local hider/maintainer is disclosed privately to the reviewer prior to publication

 

[Keystone]

1.  There is a grand total of one Community Volunteer Reviewer on the organizing committee for Midwest Geobash.  That person has not hidden any of the Doctor Alien caches.

2.  I can only speak for the Doctor Alien caches that I've personally reviewed and published, but the local hiders/caretakers have terrific reputations as cache hiders and cache maintainers in their local area.

3.  Geocaching HQ is well aware of the Doctor Alien account and their hiding plan.  This topic has been discussed in our Reviewers' forum.

4.  The person/persons behind the Doctor Alien account have not done anything to violate the website terms of use such that the account would be in danger of suspension, either temporarily or permanently.  I personally enjoy a positive, transparent relationship with the person/persons behind the Doctor Alien account.  I have never felt abused, lied to or threatened.

[+Geo-Sarge]

I have never said any reviewer was threatened or abused to have caches published by the MWGB organizing committee.

 

The lead organizer of MWGB is DoctorAlien, there is a reviewer on the same commetee, since MWGB is a Mega Event and Groundspeak is considered a major sponsor of MWGB there is clearly a conflict if interest here. 

 

As stated in a previous post on the thread, this is clearly an abuse of a policy that was intended to be used for the right reason. 

 

Just because you can does not mean you should.

 

I still have not gotten a explanation to why Team Sagebrush was held to a different standard.

[Keystone]

13 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

It appears that set-em-and-forget-em behaviour is now overtly sanctioned by GCHQ and reviewers. 

GCHQ found their own loophole to drive this through.  Opening the doors to more and more "Aunt Martha"-maintenance. The maintenance plan is purposely hidden, not transparent.

There are three flaws in your conclusions/opinions:

1.  "set-em-and-forget-em" is not going to be a problem because of the active local hiders/maintainers.  To date, any problems that I've detected, I have communicated with the Doctor Alien account directly, which then forwards the concern to the local maintainer.  If, for any reason, Doctor Alien does not do this promptly and a maintenance issue persists, I would look at the notes for the cache, see who the local maintainer is, and write to that account directly.

2.  "My Aunt Martha will watch over this cache" is worlds apart from "a premiere, well-known hider who lives 10 miles away will watch over this cache."

3.  Years ago, some Reviewers were requiring that the maintenance plan for a cache distant from the hider's home needed to be stated publicly on the cache page.  We were instructed by Geocaching HQ to stop doing this.  So, yes, the maintenance details are purposely hidden.  But the plan itself is solid, or else I would not be publishing caches for this this account.

[Keystone]

4 minutes ago, Geo-Sarge said:

I have never said any reviewer was threatened or abused to have caches published by the MWGB organizing committee.

 

That's true, so thank you very much for proving my point.  I believe I've responded to all of your concerns.

[+Geo-Sarge]

So I guess the question of Team Sagebrush vs DoctorAlien will remain unaswered. No surprize there

[Keystone]

As I said in my prior post, I've responded to all of your questions, including that one.

 

There is a limit to what can be discussed in a public forum about the circumstances for discipline imposed by Geocaching HQ when an account violates the website Terms of Use.

[Darwin473]

5 hours ago, Wacka said:

He has people maintain his caches...

 

I have no skin in this, so I'll stay out of the main conversation. I just wanted to say that I'd love to be able to say "I have people to do that".  

[+NYPaddleCacher]

5 hours ago, Hügh said:

Though the question about this specific user’s hiding practices has been answered above, generally, people hiding caches far from home submit a “maintenance plan“ to the reviewer. For example, they might have a family member/friend (or in this case, geocacher) living near the location that has volunteered to act as steward. 
 

 

That's exactly what this is - but no rules have been broken, so it's allowed.

 

Another loophole found and compromised.  It's almost like that geocaching is about to some people.

 

I've found a  cache by someone who I'll just refer to as "Steve" in Africa.  He also has hides in at least a dozen other countries, almost all published in 2002.  

[+barefootjeff]

3 hours ago, Keystone said:

1.  "set-em-and-forget-em" is not going to be a problem because of the active local hiders/maintainers.  To date, any problems that I've detected, I have communicated with the Doctor Alien account directly, which then forwards the concern to the local maintainer.  If, for any reason, Doctor Alien does not do this promptly and a maintenance issue persists, I would look at the notes for the cache, see who the local maintainer is, and write to that account directly.

 

Maybe I live on a different planet, but if cache problems get reported to the local maintainer via a reviewer then I have serious concerns about the effectiveness of this maintenance plan. I'd feel ashamed and embarrassed that I'd let the community down if it took reviewer intervention to bring maintenance issues on any of my hides to my attention.

[+brodiebunch]

In the beginning of this activity, you had to live within a 25 mile radius of the geocaches you were placing in order to properly maintain them. 

 

But I have learned over the years that some geocachers are more equal than others 

[+OnABoat]

Hi all,

 

This wasn't how I planned to spend my Sunday, but here we are. I was really hoping to enjoy this race this afternoon while enjoying a few cold ones, but I feel like this thread is asking for a reply from me directly, so I'll play.

 

First thing of note to anyone following along, I'm probably the single best person to factually respond to this thread aside from Keystone who (in my opinion) has provided ample details about the plans laid out and in place for these. Feel free to ask about my qualifications if you must, but I don't feel I need to list everything here at the moment.

 

With that being said, here are a few things that stick out to me:

 

1. The OP has made a significant number of assumptions and assertions throughout this thread.

   • Quote

     The individual lives in Ohio and he is actively soliciting other cachers to place a container and email him the coordinates and then submitting the cache under his profile.

     • I can tell you that only parts of this are true. There are also a few pieces of this that aren't correct. First being that there isn't a single "individual" here in this case, and second, that only one person accesses the account. There are multiple stakeholders involved in the project with access to the account and cache pages are being created and submitted both by those hiding them, as well as others who are being provided information by the local cache hiders to then submit the pages.

   • 21 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

     This cacher lives in Ohio clearly can not maintain these caches and he has clearly not traveled to these other countries

     • As mentioned before in this thread, this isn't a single cacher, and therefore the caches aren't being maintained by a single person. The caches clearly "are" being maintained. A total of 49 "owner maintenance" logs have been posted for a myriad of reasons by the DoctorAlien account since February, and those logs have been posted on caches in a number of various locations.

   • 18 hours ago, Keystone said:

     Each of the caches in this series is hidden by a local geocacher on behalf of the Dr. Alien account.  The identity of the local hider/maintainer is disclosed privately to the reviewer prior to publication.  When a cache has an adequate maintenance plan, it's published.

     • The last part of this is the most important part of this reply. "Adequate" is the key word here. In multiple cases, local reviewers have raised questions about the ability of the local hider/maintainer to effectively maintain the hide due to ongoing maintenance issues of their own hides. In some cases, these issues have been worked out by the local cacher which to me is a win (leading to better overall cache maintenance by cache owners), but in other cases the issues have been unable to be resolved and the caches were unable to be published. In those cases, the reviewers are thanked for all of their input, and the attempt to publish the cache is archived.

   • 16 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

     I'm going to have to still believe that this is nothing more than a pad the numbers gimmic. The standard Team Sagebrush was held to is clearly a different standard than being used for this account. The cache page clearly reads "This cahe was placed for Midwest Geobash 2020"  How does a cache placed under this account in Leiria, Portugal have any remote connection to a an event held in Fulton County Ohio?

     • This is a very assumptive quote here. So to dissect it, first, isn't every cache hidden a "pad the numbers" gimmick by this definition then? There have been nearly 1000 properly maintained caches published around the world for cachers to find. I have yet to see where this isn't a benefit for the game and those that play it. Second, I don't know anything about "Team Sagebrush" so I can't add anything beneficial to that conversation, sorry. I can only speak to the standard that this player account is being held to, which in my opinion is quite high, and no different than the standard that my player account or likely anyone else's is held to. Lastly, yes, these caches were hidden as part of an activity for an event taking place in Ohio, and there is a connection made by having caches in Portugal. I can also assure you, that the reviewer that published those caches in Portugal is well aware of the connection as well as the plan for maintenance, and dialogue was had ahead of those caches being published which allowed for them to be published according to the guidelines.

   • 4 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

     Looking at all the hides on this account one can not actually believe that there will be cachers to take proper care of these caches. The Ohio cacher that is posting new caches under the name DoctorAlien is the lead person on the committee that hosts the MidWest Geobash (MWGB). And if I dig deap enough we will probably find that reviewers are also in the same group of people that organize and host MWGB. This would mean that the MWGB organizers are publishing theses caches worldwide without actually following this questionable quideline of an "arranged maintenance plan".

     • This is the post I have the biggest problem with. Too many assumptions. One, again you're assuming that I (yes I know who you meant) am the one hiding, placing, submitting, and whatever else on this account, which as I mentioned before isn't true.
     • Secondly, I would caution you not to make assumptions about either the event team, reviewers, or anything else in this particular situation unless you're certain of what's going on. I can tell you for certain, that the distinction between event organizer and community volunteer reviewer is quite clear and well defined, and that line is held objectively with impartiality.

   • 21 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

     It looks as if the rewuewers are giving this cacher preferential treatment becaue they are friends. If that is what is happenng then perhaps the reviewers need to be revaluated for suitablty to be a reviewer

     • Two things here.
       • First, I would love to hear how you feel the reviewers are giving this account preferential treatment, especially considering the majority of these caches are being published by reviewers who have never met the people submitting them.
       • Second, I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with any sort of comment stating the reviewers publishing these caches need to be "re-evaluated", especially in the absence of evidence of what you allege is taking place. The reviewers publishing these caches have maintained a very high OBJECTIVE standard, and have followed the guidelines as written without wavering. I've had the pleasure of "meeting" many great reviewers, and I would love to have my own personal caches reviewed by absolutely any one of the reviewers that have played a role in this. The game is stronger because of the work they do, and they represent the game well.

   • 3 hours ago, Geo-Sarge said:

     I have never said any reviewer was threatened or abused to have caches published by the MWGB organizing committee.

      

     The lead organizer of MWGB is DoctorAlien, there is a reviewer on the same commetee, since MWGB is a Mega Event and Groundspeak is considered a major sponsor of MWGB there is clearly a conflict if interest here. 

     • I'm glad you mentioned that no reviewer was threatened or abused in this process. That's one correct statement.
     • Midwest Geobash does not have a "lead organizer". The event is managed by committee with no one person above another.
     • As I mentioned before, a reviewer being involved in this committee has nothing to do with the caches being hidden. The vast majority of these caches have been reviewed and published completely objectively by reviewers with absolutely no stake in the mega event, with the largest number being from your local reviewer in Northeast Ohio.
     • I can also tell you that as a Mega event, our relationship with Geocaching HQ as a sponsor is very well laid out and defined, and this project has zero reliance upon that relationship.

   • 3 hours ago, Keystone said:

     There are three flaws in your conclusions/opinions:

     1.  "set-em-and-forget-em" is not going to be a problem because of the active local hiders/maintainers.  To date, any problems that I've detected, I have communicated with the Doctor Alien account directly, which then forwards the concern to the local maintainer.  If, for any reason, Doctor Alien does not do this promptly and a maintenance issue persists, I would look at the notes for the cache, see who the local maintainer is, and write to that account directly.

     2.  "My Aunt Martha will watch over this cache" is worlds apart from "a premiere, well-known hider who lives 10 miles away will watch over this cache."

     3.  Years ago, some Reviewers were requiring that the maintenance plan for a cache distant from the hider's home needed to be stated publicly on the cache page.  We were instructed by Geocaching HQ to stop doing this.  So, yes, the maintenance details are purposely hidden.  But the plan itself is solid, or else I would not be publishing caches for this this account.

     • This is the last thing I'm going to comment on, as I feel Keystone said his piece quite well.
     • I mentioned before the number of owner maintenance logs. I can also tell you that to this point only ONE (1) cache has been disabled by a local reviewer after a needs archived log was posted on it. The needs archived log was also posted (supposedly humorously - but mostly to flag the cache on the health score) by someone with access to the DoctorAlien account via their personal account. So even that cache was being maintained at the time. Zero caches in this series have been archived by a reviewer for lack of maintenance. Zero caches in this series have required a message to be sent to the cache owner OR local maintainer by a reviewer for any reason (the latter half to my knowledge, as I obviously can't see everyones private messages), although I appreciate the thought of doing so from Keystone.
     • "Aunt-Martha" isn't maintaining any of these caches. I can assure you of that.
     • The maintenance details are purposely hidden by those creating them for the express purpose of creating mystery and a bit of a story as to what these caches are for. The current plan is to reveal that story over time as part of the event.

 

If anyone has any remaining questions, please feel free to let me know. But I feel this should suffice as an adequate response to what's been laid out in this thread so far.

 

Cheers!

[+barefootjeff]

7 hours ago, OnABoat said:

So to dissect it, first, isn't every cache hidden a "pad the numbers" gimmick by this definition then?

 

I hide my caches to hopefully provide some outdoor adventure and enjoyment to those who take them on. If they were just for finders to pad the numbers, I'd put the container at the parking waypoint and dispense with the long hikes, rock scrambles and kayak paddles. I'm sure if I did that I'd get more finders but I doubt there'd be anywhere near as many FPs. Padding the numbers might well be part of the game but it's not part of everyone's game.

Edited July 20, 2020 by barefootjeff

[+cerberus1]

16 hours ago, OnABoat said:

So to dissect it, first, isn't every cache hidden a "pad the numbers" gimmick by this definition then?

 

I was kinda along with you until this.    No, they're not...   

Folks might "pad numbers" if they feel stats mean anything.  We don't.  We've seen how more than a few came by them...

 

I see what you're doing as simply a (much) larger version of a "team account".   

If you're complying with guidelines to do it, cool.

 

[+RocTheCacheBox]

What gets me me aside from what has been discussed is the lines like....

I know these hides will probably blow your mind and you'll be incredibly impressed with my extreme level of detail and creativity.

or...

“You earthlings can learn much from me. Pay attention and soon you too can be come an expert. If you're curious how popular I am, check out all my most awesome stats!

 

I did. “He” has 995 “most awesome geocaches of all time” hides. (actually 999 currently. Probably too busy being awesome to update the stats.) The MOST favorite points ANY of “his” caches has is "most awesome geocaches of all time # 204 with a whopping 3 favorite points.

 

I have one humble little hide. It has 6 favorite points.

 

My mind is blown. By the BS

[+OnABoat]

2 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

I was kinda along with you until this.    No, they're not...   

Folks might "pad numbers" if they feel stats mean anything.  We don't.  We've seen how more than a few came by them...

 

 

12 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I hide my caches to hopefully provide some outdoor adventure and enjoyment to those who take them on.

Padding the numbers might well be part of the game but it's not part of everyone's game.

 

I agree with both of you for what it's worth. My personal hides seem to line up more with yours, barefootjeff. However, I can still see the value to some folks in having caches of this style we're discussing. That was more my point with my original comment cerberus1. I was meaning in some way, every hide "pads stats" in some desirable way for someone. DoctorAlien hides might do it for one person, hikes and higher terrain adventures might do it for another.

 

Hopefully that clarifies my position on that piece a bit.

 

Cheers

 

[+Max and 99]

I can't help but wonder if this project is worth alienating the community. ?

Do you see what I did there?

[+ecanderson]

I asked you not to tell me that!

Wait a minute .. that's your line!

 

[+OnABoat]

8 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I can't help but wonder if this project is worth alienating the community. ?

Do you see what I did there?

oof... well played.

 

To be fair though, it’s been a pretty mixed bag thus far. Some people have been pretty opposed (see this thread) and others have been pretty into it even going as far as creating a bit of a challenge to see who can find the most.

 

At the end of the day, they’re just caches. Either find them, or don’t find them. Everyone should be able to make their own decisions about the caches they enjoy finding I feel like. Right?

[+RocTheCacheBox]

2 minutes ago, OnABoat said:

At the end of the day, they’re just caches. Either find them, or don’t find them. Everyone should be able to make their own decisions about the caches they enjoy finding I feel like. Right?

 

Absolutely!

But I like coming to the forums and being grumpy. I feel like I'm in good company!

[+Max and 99]

3 minutes ago, OnABoat said:

others have been pretty into it even going as far as creating a bit of a challenge to see who can find the most.

That part sounds like fun! Except when the caches are on different continents it's much harder! Especially during a pandemic. But I do see the fun in trying to find as many as you can. 

[+elrojo14]

22 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I can't help but wonder if this project is worth alienating the community. ?

Do you see what I did there?

Yeah a bunch of this "space trash" as one local logger described them is in our area too, but I met a guy claiming to be Dr. Alien and he seemed cool. I am not really sure who he was now, but I can tell from the Geocaching Podcasts it wasn't OnABoat. Our locals are not feeling too alienated because of it and are enjoying the finds for their streaks and 366 day calendars. I even think we had a thief taking the hides, which only hurt those that went to go find them next more than anyone else. The beauty of this game is it is what you make it. If you don't like a particular hide style, skip it. I hate bush caches. I do not want to find them. That doesn't mean I go around hating the people that plant them or steal them. I just skip them and move on to more worthy finds. Sometimes I search for caches in the desert in bushes for some stupid reason. Caching can be many things to many different people. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by elrojo14

[+elrojo14]

On 7/19/2020 at 10:16 AM, Geo-Sarge said:

The Doctor Alien account really needs to be looked at closely by Groundspeak, and by Groundspeak I do not mean the local reviewers. This account is clearly abusing an exception to the hiding guidelines and is being permitted by the local reviewers, some of which are in the MWGB planning committee.

So all of those different states and regions require a lot of different reviewers. How did Dr. Alien meet them all and brainwash all of them? You can tell someone doesn't understand how reviewing works by such a statement. I am still learning, but as Keystone said, there is a reviewer forum and anytime you try and publish something new and unique, the reason it takes a while to get back to you is they are debating it in their own private forum and you know 100% that is monitored and guided by Groundspeak. 

 

Why all the angst? Just go out and Geocache! Life is too short to worry about space trash. 

[+elrojo14]

11 minutes ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

 

Absolutely!

But I like coming to the forums and being grumpy. I feel like I'm in good company!

Outstanding! The sole purpose of the forums! Now I gotta get back to uploading photos and videos of my cache adventures. Knocking out states #47-49 this week. 

[+OnABoat]

2 minutes ago, elrojo14 said:

Just go out and Geocache! Life is too short to worry about space trash. 

“Space trash” is my new favorite. You win.

[+RocTheCacheBox]

4 minutes ago, elrojo14 said:

Knocking out states #47-49 this week. 

 

If you don't have one in Ohio I could allow you to join my group, then I'll go find one and sign "our" name to it.

 

 

[+elrojo14]

5 minutes ago, RocTheCacheBox said:

 

If you don't have one in Ohio I could allow you to join my group, then I'll go find one and sign "our" name to it.

 

 

LOL! YASSSSS!!! The only way to cache. Except, I have Ohio. I need DE, MD, and DC. So actually I am getting #48 and #49 this week. Sorry about the error. Then AK in two weeks. Will have 50 states done and during The Rona! 

[+NYPaddleCacher]

3 hours ago, OnABoat said:

oof... well played.

 

To be fair though, it’s been a pretty mixed bag thus far. Some people have been pretty opposed (see this thread) and others have been pretty into it even going as far as creating a bit of a challenge to see who can find the most.

 

 

 Of course, they do.   What's the point of padding your numbers if you can't compare your numbers to someone elses and  make it a competition.  

 

3 hours ago, OnABoat said:

At the end of the day, they’re just caches. Either find them, or don’t find them. Everyone should be able to make their own decisions about the caches they enjoy finding I feel like. Right?

 

If they're "just caches"  why are you putting them up on a pedastal as if they're something specials.    As suggested, they just come off as a gimmick for creating  a large quantity of caches.   There are lots of other gimmicks and excuses for creating a large number of caches.   Something special would be creating caches based purely upon quality.   

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

As suggested, they just come off as a gimmick for creating  a large quantity of caches.

Maybe I'm insufficiently outraged by the DoctorAlien hides, but I don't see this. It might be a gimmick for listing a large number of caches under a single account (albeit a group account). But I get the impression that a lot of those caches would be listed under other accounts if they weren't listed under the DoctorAlien account, so I just don't see it as an excuse for large numbers of caches.

[+The Jester]

7 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

 Of course, they do.   What's the point of padding your numbers if you can't compare your numbers to someone elses and  make it a competition.  

 

 

If they're "just caches"  why are you putting them up on a pedastal as if they're something specials.    As suggested, they just come off as a gimmick for creating  a large quantity of caches.   There are lots of other gimmicks and excuses for creating a large number of caches.   Something special would be creating caches based purely upon quality.   

What pedestal, where?  If you are complaining about the cache names - they are true.  They are "Dr. Alien's Most Awesome Caches of All Time" as there are no other caches under that user account to be compared too.  They could also be called "Dr. Alien's Most Horrible Caches of All Time" or "Dr. Alien's Most Mundane Caches of All Time" because there is nothing to compare them too.  There's nothing in the name that says they are better than any other cache in the world, just that they are the most awesome caches of "Dr. Alien".

[+NYPaddleCacher]

12 hours ago, niraD said:

Maybe I'm insufficiently outraged by the DoctorAlien hides, but I don't see this. It might be a gimmick for listing a large number of caches under a single account (albeit a group account). But I get the impression that a lot of those caches would be listed under other accounts if they weren't listed under the DoctorAlien account, so I just don't see it as an excuse for large numbers of caches.

 

Perhaps not.  It just seems like there seems to be a lot of excuses for not calling a bunch of caches created to provide a lot of caches for others to find what is is. 

"It's not a power trail.  It's a series".    There are more than enough geocachers putting out caches primarily for the numbers.  We really don't need excuses for more.

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 7/19/2020 at 1:42 PM, Keystone said:

2. I can only speak for the Doctor Alien caches that I've personally reviewed and published, but the local hiders/caretakers have terrific reputations as cache hiders and cache maintainers in their local area.

3.  Geocaching HQ is well aware of the Doctor Alien account and their hiding plan.  This topic has been discussed in our Reviewers' forum.

 

One thing about Dr. Alien that's a bit different (and to some people troubling) is that the cache ownership and maintenance plan are less transparent than normal.

 

Anonymous event cache accounts are usually limited to a local area (in practice, if not necessarily by Guidelines). They usually involve multiple people working together under one account, who become known to the community. Although having dealt with events as a hider and attendee I really think most event caches are better of being under the ownership and responsiblity of a single cacher, not a group account.

 

Non-event sock puppet hides are also unusually a single hider in a local area, and often become something of an open secret as well (and many aren't even secretive about it).

 

In either case, hides outside the local area would normally have a basic maintenance plan on the cache page. (Ex: "SomeCacher will help me maintain this cache.)

 

Dr. Alien is a single-user sock puppet for an event, with cache listings hidden across the country and beyond, by hundreds of different cachers, with a hidden maintenance plan.

 

The anonymity intended to create mystery is creating resentment because it's outside normal cache hiding behavior. I think this response is pretty understandable. 

 

On 7/19/2020 at 5:00 PM, NYPaddleCacher said:

Another loophole found and compromised.  It's almost like that geocaching is about to some people.

 

If you think Geocaching is bad about that you should see people who play games that were actual intended as at least casually competitive. (Not to mention lawyers and high-end tax advisors.)

[Keystone]

49 minutes ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

There are more than enough geocachers putting out caches primarily for the numbers.  We really don't need excuses for more.

 

Actually, cache placements in Ohio have been outpaced by archivals for the past few years.  The 386 active Dr. Alien caches in Ohio have helped reverse that trend.  And, unlike the routine "just for the numbers" caches, I have a higher confidence level in the maintenance plan for this cache series.

[+Mudfrog]

29 minutes ago, Keystone said:

 

Actually, cache placements in Ohio have been outpaced by archivals for the past few years.  The 386 active Dr. Alien caches in Ohio have helped reverse that trend.  And, unlike the routine "just for the numbers" caches, I have a higher confidence level in the maintenance plan for this cache series.

 

I haven't tried to compute the numbers but from the email notifications I receive,  it's obvious the archival rate for my area is greater than the publish rate. There seems to be a pattern, this being that the caches being archived are pretty much all less than ordinary, easy, boring, non-interesting, forgotten by their owners who themselves lost interest in geocaching, caches.  Common sense tells me that even if there are more caches being placed, as in your Ohio example, that they're not going to make any difference in the grand scheme of geocaching,,, because, from what I'm reading in this thread,  those 386 active caches are just another lot of non-interesting caches. They may be maintained better but that in itself isn't going help to keep the excitement of geocaching alive. 

 

Imo, this is just another attempt to bolster numbers that'll only work for a short duration of time. We need to forget about quantity for a minute and focus more on quality.