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Ragnemalm

Letterbox hybrids - real or just stat boosters?

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1 hour ago, coachstahly said:

How many sub-categories do we really need?  If it has a stamp, then it's a LBH.


Unless it’s a challenge!
 

1 hour ago, coachstahly said:

It's a challenge, has directions like a LBH, with a stamp inside (the number 100).

 

https://coord.info/GC5C9GM

 

 

1 hour ago, coachstahly said:

Are you telling me that a newer cacher going after a traditional cache shouldn't read the cache page every time?


No.

 

22 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

And don't get me wrong, I think you should always read the cache page, and I wish this was the first thing you saw in the app.

 

17 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

That’s not to say you don’t need to read the cache page ahead of time!

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On 6/26/2020 at 9:32 AM, IceColdUK said:

Unless it’s a challenge!

 

But it's not listed as a LBH, nor could it be as it has the additional requirement to find (at least in my example) 100 LBHs as part of the requirement to be able to log it.  It's a challenge that has a stamp in it.

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2 hours ago, coachstahly said:
On 6/26/2020 at 2:32 PM, IceColdUK said:

Unless it’s a challenge!

 

But it's not listed as a LBH, nor could it be as it has the additional requirement to find (at least in my example) 100 LBHs as part of the requirement to be able to log it.  It's a challenge that has a stamp in it.


That’s exactly the point.  A great example of a cache that deserves a stamp, but no way to categorise it.  If only there was an attribute... 😉

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15 hours ago, IceColdUK said:

If only there was an attribute... 😉

 

That's right.  A challenge cache icon or attribute.  :lol:

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3 hours ago, coachstahly said:

 

That's right.  A challenge cache icon or attribute.  :lol:


Haha!  Or challenge stars? 🤩

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On 6/26/2020 at 8:56 PM, Goldenwattle said:

Most letterbox caches I have done, are traditionals. Most have a commercial stamp; nothing special. Not all have a log book with enough room to stamp. Think, narrow logs that go in micro caches. I don't mind if they are traditional caches, as long as the cache itself is special, such as a real letterbox with a log big enough to stamp. I have seen several traditional style letterbox caches that have wonderful homemade caches. Unfortunately, most I have done are no different to any other traditional cache, except there is a commercial stamp in it.

 I have found 8 LHs, three of which were traditionals with a stamp. The traditional were all created within the last three years which to me indicates they were made for the purpose of stat boosting. The older one however were all very interesting and enjoyable hunts and more in keeping with the letterbox ideal. I haven't seen any with a commercial stamp. 

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12 minutes ago, dimwit61 said:

I have found 8 LHs, three of which were traditionals with a stamp.

I have found a number of so called letter box caches, as part of power trails. No different to the traditionals in the power trail, except they have a cheap commercial tamp included. And as often placers of power trails have little intention to service their caches, the stamp goes missing and then it really is a traditional cache, except it is still listed as a letter box cache.

Unless it becomes harder to call a cache a letter box (higher standards needed), why does GC continue with Letter box as a category? Some of the old letter box caches are more special than traditionals and were set up properly, but many new ones treat it as a joke. 'Grandfather' the old letter box caches but don't allow any more to be published without higher standards required, than just another traditional with a a cheap commercial stamp thrown in. Some of the logs for these so called letter box caches, are not even big enough to stamp. It's a joke!

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I have found a couple of craved eraser style stamps which are almost as lazy. Personally, I don't think LHs should be grandfathered but a don't think traditionals with a stamp are ok -if your going to do a letterbox at least make it a mystery or multi. I have set up a couple in the last couple of years (GC7JTPV) and (GC7PDVB) which are not traditionals

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1 hour ago, dimwit61 said:

 I have found 8 LHs, three of which were traditionals with a stamp. The traditional were all created within the last three years which to me indicates they were made for the purpose of stat boosting.

 

I have a traditional cache at the end of the PMG Trail in Brisbane Water National Park. "PMG" used to be Post Master General which later morphed into Australia Post, and at the time I was planning the cache I'd thought of making it an LBH in keeping with the "postal" theme. Nothing to do with boosting stats, just something to add a bit more interest to the cache. In the end I didn't, though, because the national park cache rules prohibit anything other than the logbook, an information card, a pen/pencil and a sharpener in the container, which meant I couldn't have included a stamp. I still reckon it would've been neat, though, especially if I'd also been able to use a "postal" themed container (again the national park rules are fairly strict on allowable containers).

 

A lot of the LBHs I've found (well I've only found four so that's not much of a lot) have used an actual letterbox as the container. One of those also had letterbox-style clues to get to it, the others have just been at the listed coordinates. They've all had a stamp and a good-sized logbook.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Unless it becomes harder to call a cache a letter box (higher standards needed), why does GC continue with Letter box as a category? Some of the old letter box caches are more special than traditionals and were set up properly, but many new ones treat it as a joke. 'Grandfather' the old letter box caches but don't allow any more to be published without higher standards required, than just another traditional with a a cheap commercial stamp thrown in.

 

Who makes the call regarding the "higher standards" you think are needed and what are those "higher standards"?  I'm assuming you mean GS would make the call, which in turn means reviewers.  They get to decide if the submitted LBH meets some nebulous higher standard.  I'm also assuming that the higher standard you're referring to would be to prevent a LBH from being hidden at the posted coordinates.  So a CO who tells a seeker to go to the posted coordinates and take 5 steps to the NE to find the cache is somehow better than the CO who hides it at the posted coordinates? That's what you're going to get - LBHs that barely meet the new "higher standards" that demand some sort of written instructions in order to be able to call it a LBH.  Use your GPS to get to the posted coordinates, find a bearing of 45 degrees and walk 5 paces to find the cache.  Will you then ask TPTB to create even "higher standards" because these COs, who provided a cache that met the minimum of the new "higher standards", treated it as a joke?  When does it end? 

 

I MUCH prefer LBHs done in a much more traditional letterbox style.  I like the caches that let you use your GPS for a bit and then tell you to put them away and follow some provided instructions.  I MUCH prefer stamps (commercial or hand carved) that match the theme of the LBH over stamps that are placed in caches so they can be called LBHs.  These are the type of LBH that I choose to hide.  However, I'm not in favor of taking away a manner of hiding just because it's not something I think meets some "higher standard" that I prefer.  

 

If you're going to go that route, then you need to push for a "higher standard"  across ALL caches and not just the LBH.  Is a LPC or GRC traditional cache really a good hide?  Shouldn't we hold them to some "higher standard"?  What about a pill bottle tossed into some bush along a trail?  Where is that "higher standard"?  What about the multi that makes use of a contact lens case where one side says open first and the "coordinates" for the next stage say one inch to the right (or left)?   What about the simple puzzle that has only 2 questions (and 2 sets of coordinates) with one being obviously wrong?  What about those "higher standards"?  What about the Wherigo that has you walk to one zone before you get the coordinates to the final or is a play anywhere cartridge that's easy to play and solve in order to get the final coordinates?  

 

All of these caches are currently allowable and publishable but I'm guessing that they don't adhere to the "higher standards" crowd because they only meet the minimum standards in order to be published.  If we're talking "higher standards" then that means that GRC/LPC caches should be grandfathered and not allowed to be published, pill bottles should be grandfathered and not allowed to be used as containers, a multi has to have a certain pre-determined distance between the start and end, and a puzzle can't be a simple either/or puzzle in order to solve for the final coordinates, and Wherigos need to be of a certain length and not play anywhere.  That's not going to happen so this suggestion of a "higher standard" for LBHs isn't going to fly either because for this to work, it would need to apply across the board for ALL types of caches, not just this one.

 

One of the really nice things about geocaching is the sheer variety of caches that can be found OR hidden.  COs and finders can choose to hide or find caches that meet the basic standards. COs can also create caches that adhere to some personal "higher standard" and finders can find caches that adhere to some personal "higher standard".    There are some cachers and COs who get enjoyment out of caches that meet the standards and there are some cachers who get enjoyment out of caches that go above and beyond the standards.  There are some cachers who get enjoyment out of both.  Why must we attempt to mandate some sort of subjective "higher standard" when a standard already exists that allows for COs to choose to create a cache that meets current standards or go above and beyond them to provide some sort of additional experience?  While I much prefer those "higher standard" caches, that doesn't mean that those "lower standard" caches don't have any merit and aren't worth publishing.  

Edited by coachstahly
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46 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

 

 

Okay, let me put it this way, make a Letter box cache something different than just another cache on a power trail, that becomes another traditional, as soon as the cheap commercial stamp goes missing. Of course they are not all power trails, but a lot are.

The best letter box caches I have found were all at the coordinates, but had very nice caches, varying from a real letterbox to a home crafted human sized metal figure. The key to it had to be located and then the cache located in the figure. From memory two caches contained inside the metal figure; both large small to regular sized. Plus the logs were big enough to actually stamp. I have found letter box logs that were not big enough for stamps.

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We haven't found many (I don't do pmo), but most Letterbox Hybrids were set like true letterboxes, where coordinates took you to a container, and further directions/hints led you to the cache.

 - One was projecting numerous waypoints , GPS 101 stuff meant as a refresher, but we were one of only a handful that didn't need help.

I feel that "couldn't follow direction" is why many place a simple, "at the coordinates" traditional Letterbox Hybrid today.

For some it seems the need to "keep things simple" outweighs any feelings on how a Hybrid needs to be like the "real thing".   :) 

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Posted (edited)

Here's a recent Letterbox hybrid I found in a pioneer cemetery.

A traditional cache with a commercial kid's police car stamp inside.

Police/police-equipment has nothing to do with the cemetery theme of the geocache. 

 

811489880_PioneerCemeteryLetterboxGCa.png.0a0c2677b4c0bc509e1db90106c33322.png

Edited by L0ne.R
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45 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

Here's a recent Letterbox hybrid I found in a pioneer cemetery.

A traditional cache with a commercial kid's police car stamp inside.

Police/police-equipment has nothing to do with the theme of the  cemetery theme of the geocache. 

 

Was it a nice cemetery ?   Looks like it was a nice day...   Were the directions like a "letterbox", or was it a one-spot trad ?

Would you have thought better of it if just a simple cross ?   What was the "theme" ?  Thanks.  :)

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

Here's a recent Letterbox hybrid I found in a pioneer cemetery.

A traditional cache with a commercial kid's police car stamp inside.

Police/police-equipment has nothing to do with the theme of the  cemetery theme of the geocache. 

 

811489880_PioneerCemeteryLetterboxGCa.png.0a0c2677b4c0bc509e1db90106c33322.png

 

What's your point, other than you've stated that it's more like a traditional cache since it's at the posted coordinates and it contains a stamp that's not related to the theme of the cache?  It appears to be well-maintained and you chose to go find it, knowing in advance that it was at the posted coordinates.  You do realize you could have chosen to ignore/not find this LBH because it didn't meet with your expectations of what a LBH should be.  However, you DID find it, at the posted coordinates, with a stamp that's not themed to match the cache.  Like cerberus, I'm trying to figure out a reason for this post, other than to show us what all of us know, which is that some LBHs are at the posted coordinates and contain stamps that are commercial and unrelated to the theme of the cache.

 

After looking at the cache description, it's NOT a traditional style LBH.  Instead, it's a relatively simple one that asks you to take a bearing and head in that direction for a set amount of distance OR take a bearing and take this many steps.  This makes the post even a bit more confusing, other than to point out the stamp you found inside the LBH.

Edited by coachstahly
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3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Okay, let me put it this way, make a Letter box cache something different than just another cache on a power trail, that becomes another traditional, as soon as the cheap commercial stamp goes missing. Of course they are not all power trails, but a lot are.

 

That option is up to the CO, as is the option for a CO to place a traditional cache with a nice container in a neat location instead of just tossing out a pill bottle in a bush or a film can in a LPC. Why must a LBH meet some "higher standard" but not other types of caches?  This seems to me to be selective criticism based on personal, subjective preferences. If that were the case for every cacher and every cache type, then we'd be better off not having any caches at all than all the "higher standard" arguments that would be taking place on this forum.  "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." 

 

3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

The best letter box caches I have found were all at the coordinates, but had very nice caches, varying from a real letterbox to a home crafted human sized metal figure. The key to it had to be located and then the cache located in the figure. From memory two caches contained inside the metal figure; both large small to regular sized. Plus the logs were big enough to actually stamp.

 

These are the types that I like best as well.  I think they're a lot more fun and enjoyable but I'm not going to claim that they should ALL be that way and any others not allowed.  I like traditional caches that tend to be different than LPC or GRC caches but I don't ask for those types of caches to be grandfathered and all other traditional caches held to a "higher standard" just because I don't appreciate them that much.  If you know you're not going to like the experience the CO provides with a LBH, then pass it up.  Go find the LBHs that you know (since it will be in the description) are going to be more enjoyable "...than just another cache on a power trail, that becomes another traditional, as soon as the cheap commercial stamp goes missing."

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21 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

What's your point...

    

This (but not getting involved in the rest).    :)

The "this isn't like a true letterbox" nonsense is getting really old.  Guidelines don't say it's supposed to be.  It needs a stamp. Period.

That's what makes it  (by the Help Center..)  a Letterbox hybrid, a geocache type.  

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2 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

    

This (but not getting involved in the rest).    :)

The "this isn't like a true letterbox" nonsense is getting really old.  Guidelines don't say it's supposed to be.  It needs a stamp. Period.

That's what makes it  (by the Help Center..)  a Letterbox hybrid, a geocache type.  

 

It actually IS a more traditional style letterbox though.  Bearing and distance (or steps) to get to the final location once you arrive at the posted coordinates.  The only thing I guess that's worth pointing out is the stamp that isn't themed to match the cache.  However, even that meets the guidelines established by GS.

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1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

    

This (but not getting involved in the rest).    :)

The "this isn't like a true letterbox" nonsense is getting really old.  Guidelines don't say it's supposed to be.  It needs a stamp. Period.

That's what makes it  (by the Help Center..)  a Letterbox hybrid, a geocache type.  

I don't see what the problem is either, unless it's just sour apples.  Most of the letterboxes (not LBH's) I've found do NOT have a hand-carved stamp (some were a unique design but commercially made), nor did the stamp match any theme (some were the owners personal name/design).  So where are these "true letterboxes" hiding?

 

I'm going to add some comments from my experience as a magician (40+ years).  There is a tendency for the human mind to "glorify" past experiences.  I could stand on stage and produce a handful of small oranges, later someone will describe the trick as "he pulled a full bushel of grapefruit out of the air".  It's the same thing as, when you were a kid, you broke something and your mother would say "you're always breaking things" (a list of everything you have ever broke - no matter how small, it's now 'big' - pops up in her mind).  Someone mentions 'letterbox' and all the really cool boxes you've found pop up (looking better in the mind than they did in real life).  Or the reverse, the list of every 'bad' box found pops up.  All this, and other principles, are well documented for/by magicians, and we make full use of them to fool people (lots of other professions use them too, but not for entertainment - like used car salesman, telemarketers...). 

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7 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Okay, let me put it this way, make a Letter box cache something different than just another cache on a power trail, that becomes another traditional, as soon as the cheap commercial stamp goes missing. Of course they are not all power trails, but a lot are.

 

I just did a quick search for LBH caches in New South Wales. There are a total of 96 and the only ones that look like they might be on power trails are some on the outskirts of the ACT.

 

image.png.0a2d9c0f1bc8534518efb9493e4bcd40.png

 

Across the rest of the state they're well spread out, with most being around the Sydney basin, and the only "power trail" that caught my eye there is a series of 3 in the north-west.

 

image.png.3b7dd9e66187b2a214672fb06c983474.png

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2 hours ago, The Jester said:

I don't see what the problem is either, unless it's just sour apples.  Most of the letterboxes (not LBH's) I've found do NOT have a hand-carved stamp (some were a unique design but commercially made), nor did the stamp match any theme (some were the owners personal name/design). 

 

Thanks for helping to confirm that it is in fact the icon that matters.  The only thing that differentiates an LBH from the other cache types is the stamp. Traditionally the unique stamp played an important role, matching the theme or locaton.  I provide an example and you respond with 'so what, the stamp doesn't matter'.

 

I wouldn't call it 'sour grapes' because that would mean "disparagement of something that has proven unattainable". This low-hanging-fruit style of play is extremely attainable and nothing that I would be proud to do as a CO. Unless you mean that it is unattainable to hope that people who hide this cache type (which is solely about the stamp) would actually put some thought and effort into the stamp. Then yes it seems, for the most part, it my be unattainable to hope for cache owners to play in the traditional spirit and intent of the letterboxing pastime (and geocaching pastime). 

 

 

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1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:
3 hours ago, The Jester said:

I don't see what the problem is either, unless it's just sour apples.  Most of the letterboxes (not LBH's) I've found do NOT have a hand-carved stamp (some were a unique design but commercially made), nor did the stamp match any theme (some were the owners personal name/design). 

 

Thanks for helping to confirm that it is in fact the icon that matters.  The only thing that differentiates an LBH from the other cache types is the stamp. Traditionally the unique stamp played an important role, matching the theme or locaton.  I provide an example and you respond with 'so what, the stamp doesn't matter'.

 

I wouldn't call it 'sour grapes' because that would mean "disparagement of something that has proven unattainable". This low-hanging-fruit style of play is extremely attainable and nothing that I would be proud to do as a CO. Unless you mean that it is unattainable to hope that people who hide this cache type (which is solely about the stamp) would actually put some thought and effort into the stamp. Then yes it seems, for the most part, it my be unattainable to hope for cache owners to play in the traditional spirit and intent of the letterboxing pastime (and geocaching pastime). 

Please read what I wrote - what you quoted wasn't about LBH caches, but about the actual real letterboxes that I have found.  In no way, shape or form did I say "so what, the stamp doesn't matter".  Nor was that anything to "confirm that is the icon that matters".  It was an observation that letterboxers have the same disregard for the stamp that LBH owners have.  When you respond this way, you weaken your side of the argument but not listening (reading) what is being said, but just waiting to spout your personal view without regard to what others are saying.

 

"Traditionally the unique stamp played an important role" - you'll get no argument from me.  Back in 1850's (when letterboxing was starting) there were no stamp stores to buy pre-made stamps.  Each had to be done individually.  But at what point did convenience (ease of obtaining a stamp) take over?  I know that I'm not artistic (in that way) and can find a wide number of commercial stamps in just any theme I want.  (I must admit, it did take me a while to find a Jester stamp that I liked.) 

 

But what cerberus1 and I were discussing, was why does a HYBRID have to be exactly like one of it's predecessors?  It wouldn't be a hybrid then, but one of the predecessors.  So a Letterbox Hybrid should have some of the characteristics of BOTH a geocache and a letterbox.  GC has stated the minimum letterbox characteristic is the stamp.  And GPS use must included (minimum geocache characteristic).  Beyond that is up to the CO.  Yes, some take the easy way (like every other cache type), some add more of one type or the other.  But don't expect a LBH to be a letterbox.  It would be like breeding a lion and tiger, getting a liger or a tigon, and expecting it to be either a tiger or a lion.  It will share some characteristics of both, but as a hybrid it is not a tiger or a lion.  Neither is a LBH only a letterbox.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Jester said:

Please read what I wrote - what you quoted wasn't about LBH caches, but about the actual real letterboxes that I have found.  In no way, shape or form did I say "so what, the stamp doesn't matter".  Nor was that anything to "confirm that is the icon that matters".  It was an observation that letterboxers have the same disregard for the stamp that LBH owners have.  When you respond this way, you weaken your side of the argument but not listening (reading) what is being said, but just waiting to spout your personal view without regard to what others are saying.

 

 

While I appreciate your point (and your point of view) the hope that it will be honestly engaged seems unlikely.  I am growing weary of a vision that is becoming increasingly common in these forums: a worldview in which geocachers are mostly greedy, grasping, trashy people.  It's hard to address such a negative view of one's fellow cachers since it seems to be baked in as a fundamental assumption.  Your point, which is that geocachers are more or less just like everybody else, is never going to penetrate a worldview that appears to be set up to make the holder feel superior to the grubby geocacher hoi polloi.

 

OBTYW:  I am also a magician, and I observe the same thing about memory.  Indeed, I recently wrote a very long post about this exact thing.  It was, unsurprisingly, largely ignored.

Edited by fizzymagic
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3 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I just did a quick search for LBH caches in New South Wales. There are a total of 96 and the only ones that look like they might be on power trails are some on the outskirts of the ACT.

More power trail Letterbox caches than that around Canberra. Many now have no stamp.

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1 hour ago, fizzymagic said:

 

While I appreciate your point (and your point of view) the hope that it will be honestly engaged seems unlikely.  I am growing weary of a vision that is becoming increasingly common in these forums: a worldview in which geocachers are mostly greedy, grasping, trashy people.  It's hard to address such a negative view of one's fellow cachers since it seems to be baked in as a fundamental assumption.  Your point, which is that geocachers are more or less just like everybody else, is never going to penetrate a worldview that appears to be set up to make the holder feel superior to the grubby geocacher hoi polloi.

 

OBTYW:  I am also a magician, and I observe the same thing about memory.  Indeed, I recently wrote a very long post about this exact thing.  It was, unsurprisingly, largely ignored.

Oh, I agree that we won't change L0ne.R's worldview (especially one so negative about so much of geocaching) but I do hold out hope that others, getting a counter point of view, might not go down the same road. 

 

I remember that post and thought it was very good, thanks for bringing back to my attention.

 

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1 hour ago, fizzymagic said:

 

While I appreciate your point (and your point of view) the hope that it will be honestly engaged seems unlikely.  I am growing weary of a vision that is becoming increasingly common in these forums: a worldview in which geocachers are mostly greedy, grasping, trashy people.  It's hard to address such a negative view of one's fellow cachers since it seems to be baked in as a fundamental assumption.  Your point, which is that geocachers are more or less just like everybody else, is never going to penetrate a worldview that appears to be set up to make the holder feel superior to the grubby geocacher hoi polloi.

 

OBTYW:  I am also a magician, and I observe the same thing about memory.  Indeed, I recently wrote a very long post about this exact thing.  It was, unsurprisingly, largely ignored.

 

dadgum, I had to see those feet again :-(

 

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Posted (edited)

hmmmm ... i suppose that I could respond to the disparagement of my little geocache - GC7FHAD     CitWW: Sharon Cemetery 1859 Letterbox - in a number of ways. The accusations that it is of low quality, meeting basic requirements, that police car has nothing to do with some presumed theme and whole discussions about some dubious "higher standards". 

 

I could staunchly defend my creation and come out swinging.  Go attack the attacker and countering with volleys - arguments after argument.  I suppose the second option is to simply ignore the attacker and hope they return to kindergarten and learn some of the basic things that can be learned there, like, "play fair" or "say  your sorry when you hurt someone" or "the Golden Rule".  I suppose one should never expect human beings in whatever profession or pass time in which they partake, to follow such considerations.  

 

In retrospect, I didn't see the actual GC or Name published, but in fairness, I didn't look too long.  

 

Thirdly, I could open a discussion about why should every geocache published be held to an extremely "higher standard", which I have never seen published by HQ anyway.  I think people forget that variety is a gift.

 

I decided on a fourth option, namely, to give a short explanation of my little letterbox hybrid tucked into a beautiful little spot amongst the old farms in upper Mapleton Township, northern Wellington County.  I do not make any of my caches "premium".  I want everyone to be able to access them, whether they are premium members or not (don't care - that's how I feel).   Many of the cachers that I know, do not know now to project way points.  I designed this cache to facilitate learning how to project way points ... at least conceptually.  I could have created some grand adventure like the one in a small town in Ontario called Stratford.  It starts at the hospital and ends up in two cemeteries, walking through a Shakespearean play.  It was wonderful, but my little cemetery tucked into north Mapleton is only about a 150 meter square with old fences on three sides and about 10 headstones.  It's not a grand place, Shakespeare would not work here.

 

As for the police car stamp...

 

As a volunteer firefighter, I have always supported my brothers and sisters in law enforcement - except maybe when they pull me over and give me a ticket ... lol.  It is a very demanding job.  I have helped some great people doing a tough job.  I chose the police stamp in this case to honour our common bond and to pay my respect for the job they do. 

 

Do pioneer cemeteries have a theme?  1800's? horses? hardship? History? 

 

The cemetery is very simple but that is exactly why I chose it.  When I step off the merry-go-round of the modern world, I go and visit these amazing oasis's.  It is stepping back in time, entering a world before our world.  Imaging no roads, hospitals, internet - with those pesky forums disparaging my creations.  Have you ever stopped and read some of the headstones.  I read in one cemetery about 5 deaths - a 6 month baby, a 3 year old boy, a thirteen year girl and their mom and dad.  I wondered what took their lives.  What was it like, to be there and feel what they felt.  There is "life story" here for someone who will stop and read and take the time to wonder, imagine and grieve for the loss, hardship and frankly amazing things many of these pioneers had to endure.

 

If you need a theme, here it is.  People doing amazing things, especially when they are hard.  Whether those people are in the 19th century serving their communities with horses or police working in the 20th serving their communities with cars.

 

I have found mostly the people within geocaching to a hardy lot, who love adventure, challenges and certainly fun.  But this does not presuppose that I'll agree, get-along-with, or even like all of them.  I have met a number whom I go out of my way to never see, much less fellowship with.  I suppose the feelings are mutual ... and rightly so.

 

Regardless, enjoy your discussions, but remember to be wary of making assumptions about things in this world, you may not know the whole story.

 

drdrkxz

 

PS ... I didn't forget about the accusation of low standard ... I suppose that I just do not care if other people do not like what I have created.  Simple and easy for beginners do not equate with "low quality" in my book.  But I suppose many will disagree.  

Edited by drdrkxz
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   8 hours ago,  drdrkxz said: 

I could open a discussion about why should every geocache published be held to an extremely "higher standard", which I have never seen published by HQ anyway.  I think people forget that variety is a gift.

 

This.  It's not on TPTB to mandate a higher standard.  It's their responsibility to provide a baseline for this activity and it's then up to the community to figure out where they want to go with this, be it maintenance or cache creation/ownership.  All COs will provide something that falls along a sliding scale from the baseline to over the top.  This should apply to cache ownership and cache maintenance.  I have certain preferences in my caching but those are personal, subjective likes and dislikes.  I don't expect GS to mandate that all caches should meet my preferences because my preferences are personal to me, and me alone.

 

   8 hours ago,  drdrkxz said: 

As for the police car stamp...

 

As a volunteer firefighter, I have always supported my brothers and sisters in law enforcement - except maybe when they pull me over and give me a ticket ... lol.  It is a very demanding job.  I have helped some great people doing a tough job.  I chose the police stamp in this case to honour our common bond and to pay my respect for the job they do. 

 

Although my preference (there it is again, a personal affinity) is to find stamps that are related to the theme, in actuality, most of the LBHs I've found don't have stamps related to the theme of the cache.  That doesn't mean that I don't like stamps that aren't tied into the theme.  It just means that I prefer a themed stamp.  I guess a good analogy is that I prefer sugar cream pie over all other types of pies but that doesn't mean that I don't like every other type of pie.  I enjoy a good pecan pie and a good pumpkin pie (amongst others) as well.  Every LBH that has a stamp in it gets a notation in my LBH notebook I bring with me and allows me to have some memory of my time at that particular cache.  Whether or not you like the LBH that the CO has chosen to put out is irrelevant when it comes to the fact that they went out and provided finders with an experience that's just slightly different from the normal traditional cache to provide some sort of variety.

 

   8 hours ago,  drdrkxz said: 

Do pioneer cemeteries have a theme?  1800's? horses? hardship? History?

 

Death (or life, depending on how you look at it), in all of its various forms and in all of its various claims on us, from young to old.

 

   14 hours ago,  L0ne.R said: 

Thanks for helping to confirm that it is in fact the icon that matters.  The only thing that differentiates an LBH from the other cache types is the stamp. Traditionally the unique stamp played an important role, matching the theme or locaton.

 

Nowhere does this prove or disprove it's all about the icon.  In fact, this actually weakens your point because the point that was raised was that the letterboxes (NOT the letterbox hybrid on this site) the poster found did NOT contain hand-carved stamps but instead contained commercially produced and bought stamps, just like what we find here.  The traditional letterbox style  and stamp that you so obviously prefer in a LBH isn't even enforced within the existing letterbox sites.

 

   14 hours ago,  L0ne.R said: 

Then yes it seems, for the most part, it my be unattainable to hope for cache owners to play in the traditional spirit and intent of the letterboxing pastime (and geocaching pastime).

 

This isn't a letterbox site, it's a geocaching site, which requires that a letterbox hybrid use some of both to create something that's not one or the other but is instead an amalgamation of two distinct types of activities.  While it's obvious you prefer an approach that more closely mimics the experience you get with letterboxing, why do you insist on stating that this is how ALL LBH caches should be created?  GS created this cache type with the understanding that it would combine both activities into one that uses some of both activities.  For the geocache part, some GPS use is required, which may or may not lead you directly to the final.  For the letterbox part, a stamp is required but the written directions are optional.  The intent wasn't to make the LBH just like a letterbox, with written instructions provided to get you to the final and a hand-carved stamp.  It could be done that way but it was never required to be done that way.  That was, like always, left up to the CO.  As long as it provides a stamp and has some required GPS usage, it meets the definition of a letterbox hybrid and is publishable by GS (assuming everything else also meets the guidelines).

 

You desire that a LBH be as close to a letterbox as possible.  If that's the experience you desire, then why don't you go to atlasquest (.com) or letterboxing (.org) and do those letterboxes.  That's not the point/purpose of a hybrid, nor should it be.   The point is to combine both into something different, with both sides of this represented to whatever extent the CO desires.  Your personal preference (or anyone else's for that matter) shouldn't dictate that TPTB cater to our personal likes and dislikes.

 

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14 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

This low-hanging-fruit style of play is extremely attainable and nothing that I would be proud to do as a CO.

 

Then don't hide one that wouldn't make you proud.  You've always had that option.  So has every other cacher who has opted to place a LBH.  However, you're taking an option we've always had and asking for it to be a requirement just because you think it's "better".  

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10 hours ago, drdrkxz said:

hmmmm ... i suppose that I could respond to the disparagement of my little geocache - GC7FHAD 

 

 -snip -  

 

I have found mostly the people within geocaching to a hardy lot, who love adventure, challenges and certainly fun.  But this does not presuppose that I'll agree, get-along-with, or even like all of them.  I have met a number whom I go out of my way to never see, much less fellowship with.  I suppose the feelings are mutual ... and rightly so.

Regardless, enjoy your discussions, but remember to be wary of making assumptions about things in this world, you may not know the whole story.

 

drdrkxz

 

PS ... I didn't forget about the accusation of low standard ... I suppose that I just do not care if other people do not like what I have created.  Simple and easy for beginners do not equate with "low quality" in my book.  But I suppose many will disagree.  

 

Thanks for your fresh take.     :)

Nice to see that everyone in the area isn't miserable as well.  Start to wonder when only hearing one description for years. 

 

 

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I don't get the concept of hiding a letterbox hybrid boosting some sort of statistic.  What statistic(s) is/are being boosted?  Number of hides?  

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1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I don't get the concept of hiding a letterbox hybrid boosting some sort of statistic.  What statistic(s) is/are being boosted?  Number of hides?  

The only thing I can think of is a "cache types" (or "cache icons") stat, whether that's different types/icons owned, or different types/icons found.

 

But if adding a new type (e.g., for challenge caches) would cause too much of a ripple in the time-space continuum to be implemented, then I doubt that removing a type (e.g., LBH caches) is any more likely.

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20 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

Indeed, I recently wrote a very long post about this exact thing.  It was, unsurprisingly, largely ignored.

Largely ignored? I don't think so.

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20 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

 

While I appreciate your point (and your point of view) the hope that it will be honestly engaged seems unlikely.  I am growing weary of a vision that is becoming increasingly common in these forums: a worldview in which geocachers are mostly greedy, grasping, trashy people. 

It seems like you're succumbing to that view also... 

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36 minutes ago, TmdAndGG said:

 

Largely ignored? I don't think so.

 

Oh, you are sweet!  Thank you!  Maybe I underestimate my influence.  But I see that what I said came off as grumpy!

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, fizzymagic said:

 

  Maybe I underestimate my influence. 

There are more people listening than you might think:)

47 minutes ago, fizzymagic said:

But I see that what I said came off as grumpy!

It's fine. It happens all the time;)

Edited by TmdAndGG

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