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General Adventure Lab Feedback


TommyGator
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2 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I only see the description of the adventure lab not the text of the individual locations, which is what I thought brought about this discussion. 

 

When I tap on one of those entries in the location list, I get the text of the location. In the example I showed, if I tap on Middle Waterfall I get this:

 

1590488313_Screenshot_20201102-143254_AdventureLab.jpg.188506f22fb1dbd65c2f6dc344a993dc.jpg

 

 

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It is fine, that Adventure LAB application notify me about new adventure LAB cache around me. But whenever I open this notification I see all, yes ALL adventure LAB caches around me. But not the last one, or new one!!! Can you repare it. And enabled third party image hosting servers too!!!!!!!! Because I am so so so so angry, with creating geocache listing, cause this rules ...

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

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After jsut playing this twice, this Adventure Lab extenstion to GC reminds me a lot of Wherigo. It's a shame that Groundspeak is copying something like this instead of integrating it better and working together with Wherigo. The principle seems to be the same, except that with WIG you can also play offline without having to use mobile data. 

GC probably still has some catching up to do.  Or better they stop it and collaborte with Wherigo.

 

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11 minutes ago, NiniScout said:

After jsut playing this twice, this Adventure Lab extenstion to GC reminds me a lot of Wherigo. It's a shame that Groundspeak is copying something like this instead of integrating it better and working together with Wherigo. The principle seems to be the same, except that with WIG you can also play offline without having to use mobile data. 

GC probably still has some catching up to do.  Or better they stop it and collaborte with Wherigo.

 

 

You do understand that Wherigo was developed by, and is owned by, Groundspeak?  A "collaboration" means walking down the hallway (well, if HQ was open.. in the meantime, it means having a Zoom call with another employee).

 

Wherigo is an outdated technology.  I don't like trying to use it as a player, and I'd never touch it as a cache owner -- too complicated for me.  In contrast, I am able to dash out the door with no preparation or downloads, and find Adventures whenever I feel like it.  As an owner, it took me just a few hours to create an Adventure and it "worked" the very first time for someone with limited technical skills.

 

I think that Geocaching HQ has placed its bets on Adventures, not on Wherigo.

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37 minutes ago, The Leprechauns said:

You do understand that Wherigo was developed by, and is owned by, Groundspeak?  A "collaboration" means walking down the hallway (well, if HQ was open.. in the meantime, it means having a Zoom call with another employee).

I don't doubt that what you say here is accurate, but I also understand how NiniScout sees it. GS has abandon Wherigo to the point that it appears to be an outside operation supported by people with day jobs. I don't have an opinion about whether that's bad or good or whether ALs are better or worse, I'm just pointing out why NiniScout could reasonable come to the conclusion that going back to work on Wherigo might be the better path.

 

Having said that, I agree with you that Wherigo isn't an option. The way I'd put it is that Wherigo is an abandoned experiment with ALs being the next try. GS seems to have learned a lot, so this attempt is a lot more stable. I know nothing about the technology to say Wherigo is "outdated", but it certainly never worked very well, at least for me. I can easily imagine why GS junked it and started over instead of trying to develop Wherigo into ALs.

 

But at least wherigos were on the map, had physical containers, and were logged on-line like any other cache. Those are the things that encourage people to think of Wherigo as the one more compatible with geocaching. I'm still not sure whether GS is thinking about ALs going more in that direction or branching off into something else.

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I understand that Adventure Labs that are part of power trails like the Lincoln Highway and Route 66 are given 10 locations. But how is it that others are getting 10 locations? What's the criteria for getting that? 5* average?

One near me had 5 locations when it was published, I'm fairly certain, but now it has 10. 

Edited by Max and 99
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i've only recently begun doing ALs and have completed about 14 now.  Here are the things I like and don't like about them:

Likes:

  • You can do them around muggles
  • Generally, they are easier to "find" so if you are looking to continue a streak you can grab a stage 
  • They can be "placed" in areas that don't allow physical caches, (like the natural areas near where I live)
  • They are unlikely to get  "lost" as the signage/plaques, usually referred to for answers, don't get changed or removed very often
  • You get feedback immediately as to whether the answer is correct or not. (Virtuals require the COs to check answers at a later date.)
  • In the app, you can filter out those you have already found
  • The app integrates well with the map app on my iPhone so that I can use it to get directions to each stage
  • I do find them rather enjoyable, especially on days when I'm not feeling my best but want to get out there and go geocaching

Dislikes:

  • They don't appear on the geocaching.com map
  • Many have to be done in a particular order.  If it's not absolutely necessary to a "story" or for the placement of a bonus cache, I prefer that they don't do this
  • The geofencing varies widely as to how close you have to be before you can give your answer. The map app on my iPhone directs me to the edge of this geofence and sometimes it dumps me in an area with no safe parking
  • Sometimes the CO takes you to places that you shouldn't be, (such as past "ONLY residents allowed" signs)
  • There is no easy way to communicate with the CO if there is a problem with the AL.  (You can't post a DNF if there is an issue with a stage)
  • Once, I had to watch a video to get an answer.  This uses limited data on my cellphone as I can't watch if before I go out
  • I'm finding that for the ALs that require driving instead of walking, that it works best with two people.  One driving while the other answers the question once you are close enough to a stage
  • I'm not seeing an easy way to take the coordinates of a bonus cache and use them in the geocaching app. Currently, I use a second cellphone to take a picture of the bonus coordinates on my phone.  Then I open the geocaching app on my phone, find the bonus cache (GC codes for these aren't always given), add a waypoint with the bonus coordinates, and navigate from there.
  • There aren't enough of them.  I'm already needing to drive further afield to find more
Edited by VeganHiker
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4 minutes ago, VeganHiker said:

They can be "placed" in areas that don't allow physical caches

You still need permission from the landowner. 

5 minutes ago, VeganHiker said:

There is no easy way to communicate with the CO if there is a problem with the AL.  (You can't post a DNF if there is an issue with a stage)

True, you cannot post a dnf. I've experienced many locations when I needed help from the ALO. I always used the geocaching message center to reach them. 

6 minutes ago, VeganHiker said:

You get feedback immediately as to whether the answer is correct or not

Yes. I've experienced a couple location questions, actually several, where the ALO had the incorrect answer. There's no way for me to complete the location when the owner's answer is incorrect. They've always made a correction when I messaged them about this but I find it quite frustrating. 

I know the general feedback about the new multiple choice options make it way too easy. And they do make it easy! But I've been to one where the correct answer was none of the options!! LOL so I could still just guess and get it right but it really bothered me that the correct answer was not available until the ALO made the adjustment.  

 

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1 hour ago, VeganHiker said:

There aren't enough of them.  I'm already needing to drive further afield to find more

 

Yes, that's a problem here too. In the region where I do most of my caching, namely the New South Wales Central Coast, Lake Macquarie and Newcastle areas, there haven't been any new ALs since last December. I still have another three (I think) up north to do once our lockdown restrictions ease, but after that it'll be it apart from any trips south to Sydney or to places further afield.

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On 10/4/2021 at 11:07 PM, VeganHiker said:

They are unlikely to get  "lost" as the signage/plaques, usually referred to for answers, don't get changed or removed very often

Just wait. AL have only been around for a year! I've run into many multicaches that broke because the sign disappeared or decayed or was moved a few years after publication. That's not a big problem -- stuff happens -- I just found it amusing that you list the unlikelyness of this as an advantage. And, in fact, this might actually be a ding *against* ALs since, from what I've heard 2nd hand, it's difficult to correct AL stages when they do need to be adjusted to fit a changing world.

On 10/4/2021 at 11:07 PM, VeganHiker said:

I'm not seeing an easy way to take the coordinates of a bonus cache and use them in the geocaching app.

I don't run into this too often because in most ALs I've done with bonus caches, the bonus info isn't all in one place, so copy&paste doesn't help much. But I have run into it a couple times -- including earlier this week, it turns out -- and I agree it seems like an oversight in the app that the normal text selection features don't work for journals.

 

I have no problem with most of your list, but I do want to point out the distinction between two classes of dislikes you list: some are general problems with adventure labs, but other are things you don't like about how the AL creator did *that* AL. That's like saying you dislike geocaching because geocaching containers can leak. Naturally you should feel free to comment on such things, I'm just pointing out the distinction because I find that sometimes the discussion about ALs gets confusing because people take badly designed ALs as a reason to claim ALs are fundamentally flawed. I guess the question I'm asking is which of these are things the people working on the AL infrastructure should address, and which are things only intended as input to people creating adventure labs?

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On 10/5/2021 at 9:46 AM, Max and 99 said:
On 10/5/2021 at 8:07 AM, VeganHiker said:

You can do them around muggles

That's one of my favorite things about adventure labs in addition to learning something from the locations it brings me to. 

Strange. This must come from comparing stages of ALs with urban Trads without hint (regarding muggles) and without location (regarding learning).

I understand the immediate feedback and streak issue but I would say the rest of the Like-arguments in that list could be much better experienced by following a proper set up Multi.

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16 hours ago, dprovan said:

Just wait. AL have only been around for a year! I've run into many multicaches that broke because the sign disappeared or decayed or was moved a few years after publication. That's not a big problem -- stuff happens -- I just found it amusing that you list the unlikelyness of this as an advantage. And, in fact, this might actually be a ding *against* ALs since, from what I've heard 2nd hand, it's difficult to correct AL stages when they do need to be adjusted to fit a changing world.

For the CO, it's trivial to update an AL location if needed. You can change any property of the location, incl. question, answer and coordinates.

 

The actual problem is the difficulty for the players to report issues. For multis with missing stages, DNF and NM logs will start to show up. Unfortunately, it happens quite often, that the CO only reacts (if at all), when the listing is disabled by a reviewer (after an NA, or because of the CHS). For ALs, the only way to address issues is to contact the CO - and if they don't react, nothing at all happens. You cannot even give the info the other cachers, that the AL can no longer be completed. Currently all ALs are relatively new, so it's not a big deal, but as the years pass, more and more ALs will become unplayable. But maybe GS comes up with a way to DNF an AL until then ;) ...

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7 hours ago, baer2006 said:

For the CO, it's trivial to update an AL location if needed. You can change any property of the location, incl. question, answer and coordinates.

OK, thanks. I thought I remembered someone saying that the only way to move a stage was to delete it and create a new one, and that in itself caused problems. Maybe I misunderstood or it was a restriction in early implementations.

 

7 hours ago, baer2006 said:

The actual problem is the difficulty for the players to report issues.

Thanks for making my point, based on my ignorant argument, turn out to be valid, anyway!

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I was frustrated today about an adventure lab I was really looking forward to completing as I learned about some historical places in an area I've never been to. No signal on either one of our phones, in a very rural area, although it did let us get close enough to stage one to see what the question was. 5 miles out of town at the top of the hill I happened to get a signal so I quickly answered for the first location.  As soon as I drove back to the adventure lab location 2 we got nothing. 👎 I was disappointed that we had to go home without visiting those locations. And we wasted so much time driving back and forth trying to get a signal while we explored other places in town. 

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3 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I was frustrated today about an adventure lab I was really looking forward to completing as I learned about some historical places in an area I've never been to. No signal on either one of our phones, in a very rural area, although it did let us get close enough to stage one to see what the question was.

 

Um, I thought if you at least open the AL with data signal, you have the whole Adventure locally, so as long as you visit the locations, you can see the questions and get the answers - while you can't submit and complete them if there is no data signal, once you return to wifi or data you'd be able to submit the answers despite not being at the Locations, since the app knows you were there previously.  Have you tried submitting the answers now? Assuming you triggered any of the location questions by gps while you were there.

 

Edited by thebruce0
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6 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

 

Um, I thought if you at least open the AL with data signal, you have the whole Adventure locally, so as long as you visit the locations, you can see the questions and get the answers - while you can't submit and complete them if there is no data signal, once you return to wifi or data you'd be able to submit the answers despite not being at the Locations, since the app knows you were there previously.  Have you tried submitting the answers now? Assuming you triggered any of the location questions by gps while you were there.

 

That surprised me too! After we finally got a signal I saw that the second location was where we had already been exploring for a geocache. Literally we were standing at the coordinates but it still would not give me the question so no I could not answer it even later. Go figure! I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that this was a sequential AL, so you have to be at the coordinates in order, but we were, before and after that location became available to answer. Just a wild guess cuz I can't think of any other explanation why I would not be given the question.

Edit: I just opened the app to see the status and it still says get closer even though we were on top of the coordinates. 

Edited by Max and 99
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5 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that this was a sequential AL, so you have to be at the coordinates in order,

 

You can't use this trick on Sequential AL.

 

Is there a GOOD reason they are sequential? Also are there other finders that reported signal issue? Did you contacted the CO about your misadventures?

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9 hours ago, Lynx Humble said:

You can't use this trick on Sequential AL.

 

Is there a GOOD reason they are sequential? Also are there other finders that reported signal issue? Did you contacted the CO about your misadventures?

Frustrating that I WAS at the location, at the right time for the AL, and couldn't even get the question because of the lack of cell service. The AL told me the next location, and we went right back there, walked around it several times, and still no cell service. So I never got the question.

 

I most certainly will contact the CO. I'm guessing the order is because of the bonus cache, but that didn't do me any good @Dr.Scissortail. I was only able to complete the first location, so I can't give feedback.  But yes, I will contact the CO.

Edit: The CO was very nice, and didn't realize the AL was set to sequential.

 

Edited by Max and 99
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1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

The AL told me the next location, and we went right back there, walked around it several times, and still no cell service. So I never got the question.

That doesn't seem to make sense... If you're viewing the app, and the specific location you're targeting, just waiting for the "Answer" button to pop up, I thought regardless of sequential or open the AL would register being near gz - the gps doesn't require mobile data.

 

The sequential not working is more about not being able to submit an answer to even GET the next location to become available. But if it is available and you're in its zone, mobile data shouldn't be an issue... that's odd. 

Unless they've changed something with the app, which seems counter intuitive to require data at that point. Let alone not remember that you were in the zone, which was the whole point of that feature

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I wish I knew what was going on too. The AL told me the next location and gave me a description but even though we were standing right at GZ we never got the question, even a day later which I would expect it to show up after I got cell service.

Nothing. I admit I know nothing about the tech. 

I was just expressing my frustration because I could not complete the adventure lab. 

 

I'm going to consider this a fluke and move on. 😁

 

I have done adventure Labs where the cell service was almost non-existent. But at each location it did allow me to look at the question. I guess this is the first time I did a sequential adventure lab with really poor cell service. Whatever the reason it didn't work for me.

Oh well, I thoroughly enjoyed visiting the area and saw a lot of cool things, so I'm happy! 

Edited by Max and 99
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9 hours ago, HHL said:
20 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

the gps doesn't require mobile data.

Right, but the app does to show the question.

 

I thought it was to answer the question, as the AL is downloaded to the phone. When it's not sequential, without data the app can still register having visited each location, then when you have data you can answer the questions. When it's sequential the 'next' locations haven't been 'unlocked' yet because answers, in order, can't be verified without data.

 

My understanding was that the question is essentially offline, so yes, if you are able to visit a location, you will be able to see the question when in the zone. But without data, you can't answer it (and for sequential, in order to 'unlock' the next location in the sequence).  Is that not how it works?

 

 

* open Adventure: Each location is already 'unlocked' (able to be visited and triggered as visited)

* sequential Adventure: Only the first comes 'unlocked' and able to be visited

Once a location is triggered as visited, the answer can be entered and sent - this of course requires data for verification as correct and complete

* sequential Adventure: Each completed location 'unlocks' the next location in series

Thus the barrier here is only for sequential Adventures - it requires data in order to move on to the next location. Open ALs (to my knowledge) can be done entirely offline (assuming the AL has been viewed and loaded into the app locally) because each location can be visited (and the answers made note of) and then ALL supplied once data is available to the device. Not so with sequential because the locked locations in series haven't yet been triggered as visited.

 

Edited by thebruce0
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3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Open ALs (to my knowledge) can be done entirely offline (assuming the AL has been viewed and loaded into the app locally) because each location can be visited (and the answers made note of) and then ALL supplied once data is available to the device. Not so with sequential because the locked locations in series haven't yet been triggered as visited.

 

I just tested this by playing without data. Correct answer without data told me that it is possible only with data connection. It is important to note that I got my answer validated without data. I played two labs this way. Than I closed the app, opened data connection, started the app again and I was able to enter correct answers without visiting coordinates again.

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On 10/16/2021 at 4:57 PM, arisoft said:

Correct answer without data told me that it is possible only with data connection. It is important to note that I got my answer validated without data.

Maybe you could reword that? Not quite sure what happened.

You entered the correct answer, but it said you can only submit an answer with data connection? But you got your answer validated with a data connection? By validated do you mean "that's the correct answer"? Or just that you were able to enter an answer? (then told it can't be validated as correct without data?)

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  CO making it sequential for no apparent reason!

 

  AL nearest my home, sequential,  forced me to drive by a location, go 4 miles up badly washboard dirt road, (me and all the lumber trucks) do Locations 1 and 2, then drive BACK down the 4 miles, then drive back UP the 4 miles for the last two locations near 1 and 2. Oh, and then back down and by a location again going home.   And had the AL not been sequential, the guy with me, who lost cell reception between locations, could have "visited" and gotten Q&A later. But he just lost out.

 

Similar issue with one in the still small  rural county seat.  Had the CO let me just do it, I'd have parked once, walked around town for 4 locations, and hit the last furthest one on going home. Instead CO forced a sequence. Driving, parking, back and forth. 

 

My own experience with AL is so weak that I simply don't open the app.  

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8 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Maybe you could reword that? Not quite sure what happened.

You entered the correct answer, but it said you can only submit an answer with data connection? But you got your answer validated with a data connection? By validated do you mean "that's the correct answer"? Or just that you were able to enter an answer? (then told it can't be validated as correct without data?)

 

The app verifies that I have the correct answer, but it can not register the answer as a found without data connection.

 

Technically, the app could open all linear stages off-line if I know correct answers.

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36 minutes ago, arisoft said:

The app verifies that I have the correct answer, but it can not register the answer as a found without data connection.

Gotcha. I thought they didn't do that so as to avoid couch caching / hacking for answers. (if the app has the answers then one could in theory 'attain' the answers illegitimately) The data check then is an arbitrary block on the ..sequentiality(?) of the AL.
Anyway, point being, you can't move on to the next Location in sequence (and have the app 'remember' that you were there) without having verified the correct answer of the previous location, which requires data. But an open AL you can visit each location and gather the information, then verify correct answers when you have data.

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5 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

The data check then is an arbitrary block on the ..sequentiality(?) of the AL.

 

Correct.. it is an arbitrary and also unnecessary block as it could pass the player to the next stage without side effects.

 

5 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

I thought they didn't do that so as to avoid couch caching / hacking for answers.

 

The correct answer is verified against a hash code. That is why wrong answers are reported immediatelly and the correct answer takes for a while to process.

 

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2 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Just wondering... Has the read more and read less option always been available in the adventure lab description? Have I just never noticed it before? 

Don't tell me it's always been there! 😁

 

So they're now discouraging people from reading the description in ALs too.

 

image.png.658f78b847707bc09ea8dda460108d0b.png

 

Maybe I should have just limited my description to one sentence (or less) if that's the way they're going now. As it stands, there's information in there that anyone doing it probably should know but now won't see because they'll ignore the "Read more" and just tap on Start.

 

I see the heading "About this Adventure" is also now on each of the location description pages:

 

image.png.ef175abaefaaef0f7f0420e63fa37406.png

 

I thought the term "Adventure" was meant to apply to the whole thing and that each stage was a location or cache. What a mess.

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6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I see the heading "About this Adventure" is also now on each of the location description pages:

 

I thought the term "Adventure" was meant to apply to the whole thing and that each stage was a location or cache. What a mess.

 

Wow!  I just checked and you're right.  The opening screen for an AL and the stage summary are both titled "About This Adventure".  That's bad.

 

I can return to the AL opening screen (at least before arriving at a stage, which I didn't test).  But when I go back to read "About This Adventure", I may not be reading the right one.  I hope that gets fixed.  It feels like a bug.

 

I was gonna suggest that you could place some detail within the text of the main page "About This Adventure" that must be combined with a clue to complete a stage.  Therefore they must read it.  But how you explain to people how to find the info, not sure. And the text limit will make explanations tricky. 

 

 

Edited by kunarion
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6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I see the heading "About this Adventure" is also now on each of the location description pages:

 

I thought the term "Adventure" was meant to apply to the whole thing and that each stage was a location or cache. What a mess.

Interesting.

In the German UI, it only says Beschreibung: (which translates as "Description:") on top of the main page and the location pages. Nothing about "Adventure" (or "Abenteuer" ;) ).

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6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Maybe I should have just limited my description to one sentence (or less) if that's the way they're going now. As it stands, there's information in there that anyone doing it probably should know but now won't see because they'll ignore the "Read more" and just tap on Start.

Then they may get what they deserve ;) ?

 

With my own AL, not reading the main description would probably result in a DNF. It's in an indoor location which is not open 24/7, and currently has COVID-related access restrictions, which can change all the time (so I refer the players to the website where they can check).

 

I think I have already said it elsewhere: If a CO provides a cache (or AL) description, and the player consciously decides to skip it, any problems encountered because they didn't read the description, is entirely the player's own fault. Just because some app display's only a "Read more" link instead of the whole text by default doesn't change that IMHO. Even though I admit, that in a situation where I'm like "Don't know - should I take my time to read it or not?", such a "Read more" might just tip the scales to the "Let's skip it" side :rolleyes: .

 

If, for whatever reason, I as a CO really, really, really want all players to read my description (e.g. because they might seriously endanger themselves if they don't), the very first line would be like "*** IMPORTANT"! *** PLEASE READ! ***". If that doesn't help, I don't know what would ;) .

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9 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

That was rolled out with the last Adventures app update. I just caught that in the update description.

I just now found out that there was an update 2 days ago. Can you please tell me where to see the update description? I saw  that there was some bug fixes and visual changes. Is this what you are referring to? 

Thanks for catching that!

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4 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

I saw it in the description of the update in the app store when I glanced at it as I hit 'Update'

I'm not very tech savvy, so I wasn't sure where to look. I only saw the mention of bug fixes and visual changes.

 

Interesting, that even though I was given an opportunity to "update" on the app, I was seeing the new features before I updated. I'm sure there's a logical explanation.

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Today I was the guinea pig for an adventure lab in an area I had never been to. We could not locate one of the targets. Drove around and around, blocked one way because of a low water crossing, and finally decided to Google it. I was lucky that we actually had cell service here and I found the building more than half a mile away. Although I never mind contacting an ALO through geocaching, it sure would be convenient to be able to contact them on the AL app. 

Edit: Day 6, and the coordinates have not been updated. It's so easy to check them! I wish I knew if no one else has done this adventure lab or they just haven't logged it because they can't find that one location?  I was kind of hoping a second person logging about the problem would motivate a coordinate update.

Edited by Max and 99
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32 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Although I never mind contacting an ALO through geocaching, it sure would be convenient to be able to contact them on the AL app. 

Been asked so many times I stopped counting.

 

Not sure why but Groundspeak hasn't done any update of any kind about ALs for the last 9 months.... Hire more staff please.

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14 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

As one example of an update that happened less than nine months ago, integration of Adventure Lab starting locations into the official Geocaching Apps happened in May of this year.  Someone needs math tutoring.

Well I might be wrong about update for Premium Members but someone should take some tutoring in double checking fact because it was in April not in May...

For basic member my math is still right BTW with the introduction of multiple-choice questions in February.

 

Still 7 months since the last significant update is too much time for a new product.

 

Also this update about adventure pins in the main app would have been so much better and useful by showing all lab location of non-linear one instead of only 1/5 or 1/10 locations....

 

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20 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

I plan on completing my tutoring on fact-checking on the same day you complete yours on forum manners.  Let's coordinate!

Not sure which manners you want me to improve. I was only answering with the same tone as yours.

 

Disagreeing with some decisions made by Groundspeak is forbidden apparently? 

 

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