General Adventure Lab Feedback

[+TommyGator]

I tried to post this to "User Insights," but no one has posted there since 2018 and so I figure it isn't being read much, and can't start a new feedback topic there anyhow.

 

Adventure Lab Feedback

 

Having now done almost 100 Adventure Lab caches, I thought I'd provide some personal feedback for whatever use might be helpful.

 

I'm dividing this "report" into two sections: The "play experience," and "the app." Sometimes these factors overlap, but I'll try to keep them somewhat separate.

 

Play Experience:

 

Overall, my "enjoyment" has ranged from "really liked," to "sheer drudgery." The difference between those two extremes comes down to how each AL was designed by the different COs. I realize the developers have no input into this, but want to share the experience, as developers and admin make decisions that have moved/removed cache types (such as web cams) or have "transferred" them to other internal venues such as waymarks.

 

I consider an AL fun if I come away from it happy that I spent the time (and fuel) doing it.

 

To make a comparison, I tried Waymarking once and quit after doing just 13 of them because I rapidly tired of such "exciting" experiences such as submitting pictures of logos and objects at fast food restaurants, just to prove I was there. I'm sure there are people who enjoy traveling to different restaurants so they can post pictures of arches, chicken buckets, and the like, but I'm not one of them. If you are, please keep enjoying yourself. But the reason I mention this is because some ALs are just like this and can be just as boring and frustrating, at least in my opinion, which others may freely disregard, but I now I understand why GC moved Waymarks to a different e-venue, and then started considering Virtuals as nothing but a variety of Waymarks.

 

I'm not going to mention specific ALs, as I know COs do make a serious effort in trying to come up with good ideas, and that ALs are beta in nature.  However, I did two ALs that had me driving all over creation just to prove that I visited ("logged") a number of county/city parks. It isn't that there was anything wrong with the parks----but if you've seen one grass field (and that's what you were supposed to see), you've seen them all. Of course, that's just my opinion. And there were significant distances between some of the fields.

 

On the other hand, I did one that took me to a town we don't often visit and introduced us to a bunch of cool features throughout the downtown area that were most enjoyable, and will probably induce us to come back for another visit.

 

At each AL cache, the player has to answer a query in order to get credit. Most of the time this works well and is straight-forward. However, nothing is more frustrating than driving some distance to an AL cache, finding the object required, and then finding that the obviously clear answer isn't being accepted because the CO's expected answer is spelled (or misspelled) differently from that on the sign or object, or requires some interpretation as to what the CO was thinking about in asking the question. You can't go home, contact the CO, get clarification, and then log the find, because you have to be AT the location in order to log it, and a return trip for the sole purpose of re-entering the answer just isn't fun. Of course, you can try messaging the CO, and that has in fact worked a time or two---provided the CO immediately responds, and thankfully, some have.

 

Some ALs require you to proceed between caches in a particular order and do not provide details for the next cache until you visit the previous one. While I understand the concept, a CO should have a really, really GOOD reason for mandating a specific order, rather than make the player follow a specific path that might just be inconvenient from their perspective---and hiding the information of subsequent caches should likewise be done only for specific and GOOD reasons. Please don't make me back-track from the direction I was traveling without good reason---especially if the caches are miles apart.

 

Now, the App (Android for me):

 

Here I discuss the App as well as the game structure.

 

Except for one function, the app has worked flawlessly as best I can tell. The only problem (so far) has been that, on many ALs, after completing one of a series of caches, the app does not internally switch to the next cache, even though it says it did. In other words, the app says you are navigating to the next cache, but internally it is still locked onto the previous one. This can be "cleared" by exiting and restarting the app. I've seen others comment on this, so I suppose the developers already know about this bug. It doesn't happen all the time, which is kind of weird.

 

Although the app works well otherwise, that doesn't mean that I'm entirely happy with it.

 

For some reason, GC seems to want to intentionally hide information from the player such as actual coordinates and make the player hunt and scroll for textual information about each aspect of every AL.

 

Is there something so hard about allowing a player to download a GPX or LOC for selected ALs?

 

Is there something so hard about allowing a player to read the full text of an AL at home on a PC?

 

Is there something so hard about displaying a list of the coordinates while using the app? If you can display text, you can display coordinates. Yes, I know you can get some of the coordinates by circuitous methods, but it seems like this is being made difficult on purpose. After all, navigating to a set of coordinates is the very foundation of geocaching.

 

The lack of coordinates and having to hunt and scroll through the app in advance of a caching trip, just to see what may be available, is very annoying and frustrating.

 

Expending significant effort, I've been able to manually load most coordinates into GSAK, one by one. It is ONLY through this effort that I've learned that caches from two or more different ALs can overlap each other. That is, while I was driving through an area, I could have logged two AL caches from two different ALs at or near that same location. You only see that (reasonably) by viewing all the coordinates at the same time.

 

Further, I can merge the AL GPX/LOC with other GC GPX/LOC files to see the entire array of caches, both "standard" and AL, that may be along my route, and allow me to "pick them up" as I proceed. Making me run around on an AL separate from other caches can be annoying and counter-productive.

 

I prefer to geocache with a dedicated GPS for many reasons and have it loaded with the coordinates of caches for my area of interest. I can then navigate to any of them on one device in the order that I choose. I have no problem opening the AL app to log an entry when needed, but very much dislike being effectively denied (by making it complicated) the use of my GPS by the AL development team.

 

By being able to read ahead on the various caches of an AL at home, I can better choose what I want to do on any particular caching trip, and by this I mean reading ahead on each and every cache, if I so choose. ALs can bring people to interesting places, and I might like to know about some of them in advance. Being able to open a web page with the details of each cache makes this simple. Making me open the app and scroll/hunt around for snippets does not. Having it on the app is expected. Having it ONLY on the app is not.

 

Ok, that's all for now. Like I said, these are just my opinions for your consideration. Although I hear rumors, I really don't know what direction you are trying to force ALs or the geocaching community, but wanted you to know how I view the game as I play it. Others may differ, of course. 

 

Please feel free to point out anything I may have "gotten wrong," as I am certainly no expert and may have missed something.

 

Thanks for listening!

[+ecanderson]

...a CO should have a really, really GOOD reason for mandating a specific order...

Are the AL's you have run providing a set of coordinates for a bonus (physical) mystery cache at the end of the last AL stage?

 

[+Tungstène]

19 hours ago, TommyGator said:

Having now done almost 100 Adventure Lab caches, I thought I'd provide some personal feedback for whatever use might be helpful.

 

I just want to thank you for this feedback. As an AL owner to be, I found it really useful and inspiring. Thank you!

[+TommyGator]

I've seen bonus (physical) caches handled two ways:

 

1)  A partial bonus coordinate given in the completion message for each AL location.  That is, the bonus coordinates are broken up  just like bonus caches that require a series of traditonal caches to be found, each containing a specific code.  For example, if the bonus coordinates are N30.AB.CDE W097.FG.HIJ, the codes would be distributed in the completion messages for all the individual AL locations.

 

2)  The bonus coordinates provided in the completion message of the final location.

 

Each of these methods has worked just fine for me. 

 

However, I would argue that requiring a player to follow a particular order solely to make it easier for the CO to put the bonus coordinates on the last page might not be the best design philosophy.

 

I did not see that the Adventure Lab Builder has the ability to create an overall personal AL completion message.  If it does, I've missd it.  Allowing the CO to include a personal statement at the final completion of the ANY Adventure Lab might be a worthwhile feature for a future lab builder update.

 

 

[+TommyGator]

More considerations:

 

If you haven't already, it would behoove you to learn how to do screenshots on the device hosting your AL app.

 

Why?  Let's suppose you are proceeding through an AL that requires the caches to be done in a particular order, and you just completed one of the caches and have just been given the info about the next one and where to find it.  You walk or drive to that GZ, grab your app, read the page, and find that it has some really cool info on the place you are now visiting.  In your geocaching zeal to grab the smiley, you quickly press "Answer,"  read the question, look around, find the info, enter it, and are greeted with the congratulatory message that you have completed the cache.

 

Now that the geo-adrenaline has subsided, you go back to read that really nice description in leisure, only to find that...PFFT!...it's gone, never to be seen by you on the app anymore, because that cache is completed and there's no going back. 

 

If only you'd taken a screenshot of that cool description page before you answered that question!!!

 

If you are a CO reading this, you might consider putting the cool stuff in the respective journal entry, which is the only thing a player can see after a cache is complete.

 

Just some thoughts, speaking from actual experience.

[+Max and 99]

17 minutes ago, TommyGator said:

More considerations:

 

If you haven't already, it would behoove you to learn how to do screenshots on the device hosting your AL app.

 

Why?  Let's suppose you are proceeding through an AL that requires the caches to be done in a particular order, and you just completed one of the caches and have just been given the info about the next one and where to find it.  You walk or drive to that GZ, grab your app, read the page, and find that it has some really cool info on the place you are now visiting.  In your geocaching zeal to grab the smiley, you quickly press "Answer,"  read the question, look around, find the info, enter it, and are greeted with the congratulatory message that you have completed the cache.

 

Now that the geo-adrenaline has subsided, you go back to read that really nice description in leisure, only to find that...PFFT!...it's gone, never to be seen by you on the app anymore, because that cache is completed and there's no going back. 

 

If only you'd taken a screenshot of that cool description page before you answered that question!!!

 

If you are a CO reading this, you might consider putting the cool stuff in the respective journal entry, which is the only thing a player can see after a cache is complete.

 

Just some thoughts, speaking from actual experience.

I always take a screenshot of every page of an Adventure Lab. 

[+baer2006]

11 hours ago, TommyGator said:

Now that the geo-adrenaline has subsided, you go back to read that really nice description in leisure, only to find that...PFFT!...it's gone, never to be seen by you on the app anymore, because that cache is completed and there's no going back. 

This is exactly what happened to me on one of the last ALCs I did . I admit that I wasn't aware that there is no way to get back to the descriptions of the locations after completion. You can see the main ALC description, the journal entries, the logs ... but not the locations. I guess I learned that the hard way .

[+Gill & Tony]

I am an AL owner, so thanks for the feedback.

 

My AL has a bonus cache which contains the coordinates for each of the AL stages as child waypoints.  I also include a link to a gpx file containing lab cache entries for each stage. This allows people to load the lab cache locations in to GSAK (or similar) for planning purposes.  I hadn't thought about it, but maybe I could include the description of each stage into the lab cache in the gpx file, so the text is always available.

 

My AL is a tour of a local town, visiting 5 locations of historical interest, up one side of the main street and back down the other.  There is one major car park in the town where it is almost always possible to get a free spot and the tour starts and finishes there to be close to the bonus cache.  Making it necessary to visit the stages in order seemed logical.

 

[+TommyGator]

HHL,

 

I just tried it and also found that, after you open the completed Ad Lab, then tap the overview map at the bottom, you can go to the upper right of the screen and tap on the three bars to get a menu of the individual caches.  You can tap on each one and read the descriptions.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+dprovan]

5 hours ago, TommyGator said:

I just tried it and also found that, after you open the completed Ad Lab, then tap the overview map at the bottom, you can go to the upper right of the screen and tap on the three bars to get a menu of the individual caches.  You can tap on each one and read the descriptions.

Wow! Thanks a lot. I hope I remember this the next time this comes up in the field.

[+TommyGator]

More thoughts:

 

Right now, there are only four ways to find out that there is a new AdLab in your area:

 

1)  You receive notification of a new puzzle cache published which, in the description (or title), tells you it is a bonus cache for some new AdLab.

 

2)  Another geocacher tells you about it or publishes a list/map.

 

3)  You happen to notice a new "pin" on the map next time you happen to be looking at the AdLab app.

 

4)  You open the AdLab app, tap on the "three bars" at top right, and then scroll through all of the nearby AdLabs looking to see if any of them are not completed.

 

I've learned about new AdLabs by all four methods above, with Items 3) and 4) being the "official" methods, being as GC doesn't provide any other info to my knowledge.

 

Items 3) and 4) work fine when there are only a handful of AdLabs in your area and, when you open the app, you actually notice a new "pin."

 

Unfortunately, this quickly breaks down when there are 680 AdLabs in your area and you've already done 679 of them.  You open the app and, on your map, you don't see any map, just a screenful of overlapping "checked" pins that totally obliterate the map unless you zoom-in to the point that all you can see is your street.

 

You tap on the three bars, then sit back and start scrolling, screen by screen, through all of your 679 completed AdLabs, hoping to notice if an "orange" one pops up signifying an unfound AdLab.

 

This problem has already occurred with me, even though I don't have anywhere near that many completed AdLabs, but our area his rapidly getting more of them and portions of new AdLabs are already overlaying old ones. 

 

I learned of a new AdLab by method 1) the other day and didn't recognize the name.  So, I went to the app, looked at the map, and saw all my completed "checked" pins, with no new orange pin visible. I started zooming in and, sure enough, bit by bit, the more I zoomed, the more little bits of orange I saw around the edge of one of my "checked" pins.  I finally zoomed in enough to be able to tap on the orange pin and then the new AdLab popped up.

 

Mind you, this is just the beginning----there aren't that many AdLabs in our area, but the problem has already cropped up and will only get worse as more are published.

 

Some solutions?  Here's a couple of suggestions:

 

1)  For GC:  In the next AdLab app update, allow the user to hide (on the map) the display of found AdLabs.

 

2)  For GC:  When tapping on the three bars, allow the user to choose which (ie. found OR unfound) nearby AdLabs to include on the list.  I don't need to see all my completed AdLabs if I'm trying to find new ones to go after.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by TommyGator

[+Gill & Tony]

Or, include ad labs in the notification system, so you get an email when a new one appears

[+dprovan]

6 hours ago, TommyGator said:

1)  You receive notification of a new puzzle cache published which, in the description (or title), tells you it is a bonus cache for some new AdLab.

To be honest, this is my preference, anyway. If all the ALO's did this, the problem would be solved, *and* I'd get a sweet bonus cache each time I did an AL. I don't say this to excuse GS, but the first few ALs in my area used this technique, and it brought them to my attention PDQ. Since then, there have been several ALs in the area, but I only find out about them via #3.

 

6 hours ago, TommyGator said:

2)  Another geocacher tells you about it or publishes a list/map

The only time this happened to me, it was the ALO trumpeting their own AL (and I have *no* problem with that!), but, as it happens, they also published a bonus cache with the AL, so I'd already spotted it *and* completed it via #1 before I heard about it from them.

 

6 hours ago, TommyGator said:

3)  You happen to notice a new "pin" on the map next time you happen to be looking at the AdLab app.

This has been the most common way I've found ALs, but only because I started realizing there was a problem. I don't even remember why I happened to open the app when I discovered I'd *just the day before* walked the path of an AL finding caches without having any clue the AL was there. Since then, I open it once in a while when I think about it -- like when these AL comments have started showing up in the forum -- and am constantly surprised by the new ones popping up around me without a sound.

 

1 hour ago, Gill & Tony said:

Or, include ad labs in the notification system, so you get an email when a new one appears

I'd say it's time to call it "baked" and start sending notifications, but the problem is that there's no way to go look at the AL once you've received a notification about it. To me, the major flaw here is that ALs are only visible through the app. There's no way to see them on the web, so me reading email on a desktop would not be able to go look at a new AL even if I received a notification about it.

[+Gill & Tony]

I recently received a survey from Groundspeak and part of that survey was along the lines of "What would you do to improve geocaching".  My reply was a list of things to make AL's better, boiling down to "Make them caches".  I can't go back and get my response to paste here, but it was several paragraphs saying how I would make them caches.  Notifications, attributes, gpx files.

 

I agree.  They are baked, time to serve them.

[+terratin]

Here are some thoughts from me, just having done two adventure labs.

Loved the first one. Navigation was easy, information was given where exactly the fine the 'zone'. I could do all labs in any order. Nothing wrong with it.

The second one: I was starting in the north of the city centre walking 2km towards the station. First wp was difficult to find but I googled the answer. Second one: Oh I can't select it. The owner wants me to do them in a certain order, skipping one wp. Hmm.. ok. So I went on, ended up at the wp furthest away from the start and closest to the station, and now I had to walk back 1km. No thanks.

 

The problem is that I didn't finish it and hence can't give feedback on why I didn't like/finish it. I can't give this one stars/rate it, and can't post a log. Hence the rating and logs are only from people who really finished the al, and doesn't reflect on those people who started but didn't finish. That's a bit of a problem i think.

 

What I don't like about the app: the map is rather small, but even worse: the distance is nearly unreadable. At least if you have a small phone. This is for iOS. I really hate it if developers create apps for huge phones and completely forget that there are people with smaller phones, mostly women with smaller hands and smaller trouser pockets. Seriously, don't just develop apps for tablet-sized phones, please.

[+LizzyRN]

On 6/10/2020 at 6:03 PM, Gill & Tony said:

I am an AL owner, so thanks for the feedback.

 

My AL is a tour of a local town, visiting 5 locations of historical interest, up one side of the main street and back down the other.  There is one major car park in the town where it is almost always possible to get a free spot and the tour starts and finishes there to be close to the bonus cache.  Making it necessary to visit the stages in order seemed logical.

 

I love Adventure Labs and appreciate the hard work that goes into them. 

 

Sometimes there are people at GZ, reading the sign, hanging out, etc. and it's prudent to move on the the next stage and return to the unavailable stage. The requirement to proceed in order is based on one persons logical approach, but often does not work out for others.  JMHO

[+ecanderson]

4 hours ago, LizzyRN said:

Sometimes there are people at GZ, reading the sign, hanging out, etc. and it's prudent to move on the the next stage and return to the unavailable stage. The requirement to proceed in order is based on one persons logical approach, but often does not work out for others.  JMHO

I agree that it would be nice not to be locked into any particular sequence if there's no reason to do so based upon the content, but I'm not sure what the concern is about 'muggles'.  It's not like you'll be tipping them to the location of a physical cache that they might make away with.  Or is this a COVID-19 issue?  That I could more easily understand.

[+LizzyRN]

18 hours ago, ecanderson said:

I agree that it would be nice not to be locked into any particular sequence if there's no reason to do so based upon the content, but I'm not sure what the concern is about 'muggles'.  It's not like you'll be tipping them to the location of a physical cache that they might make away with.  Or is this a COVID-19 issue?  That I could more easily understand.

 

Not COVID related. More like people sitting on the bench on which the plaque is on (Anacortes Adventure Lab), standing right where you need to count the number of bolts (Space Needle), etc. I'd just as soon move to another stop than wait someone out. 

[+Max and 99]

49 minutes ago, LizzyRN said:

 

Not COVID related. More like people sitting on the bench on which the plaque is on (Anacortes Adventure Lab), standing right where you need to count the number of bolts (Space Needle), etc. I'd just as soon move to another stop than wait someone out. 

I've had that problem with Waymarking. "I'm sorry to bother you, but would you mind if I took a photo of the plaque behind you? Then I'll be out of here quick!"

 

But I do agree that it would be nice to be able to do the labs in any order.

[+TommyGator]

As AdLabs proliferate, cache management gets more and more difficult because of the lack of downloadable descriptions and downloadable coordinates.

 

Further, the app makes this more difficult by not necessarily showing all the AdLab pins on the map display.

 

First, notice the screenshot for the Cleveland, Ohio area as of today. These pins represent eighteen active AdLabs, each having perhaps five or more sub-caches that clearly will overlap each other. What's more, see if you can identify the eighteen pins. I say that because some of the pins are underneath other pins.

 

Just try and plan-out your day of caching for a visit to the Cleveland area that won't involve criss-crossing all over town, and wasting fuel, just because of the way information is being presented and because of the lack of downloadable information with which one could do some decent planning.

 

There just might be some "standard" caches sprinkled between those pins as well---just try and figure that out!

 

Secondly, note that there are no pins by Youngstown and Ashtabula. However, just scroll a little and then take another look. Compare the first screenshot with the second and see that there are indeed AdLabs in Youngstown and Ashtabula, but the app didn't display them in the first screen! What this indicates is that the app only displays SOME of the AdLabs on any particular screen. It's your guess as to why the first screenshot didn't show pins there.

 

What this means to the user is that you constantly have to keep nudging the screen position just in case an AdLab was there but didn't get displayed until I suppose you get it closer to the center of the screen. I've noticed this a lot as I scroll around.

 

I've mentioned this before, but decent planning involves being able to see and download detailed information from the web, and NOT be limited to what the app currently shows so awkwardly. Because of the lack of such information, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to plan caching trips, particularly to areas with multiple AdLabs.

 

Further, not having the coordinates readily available makes it difficult to enter them into an automotive navigation system---and a number of these AdLabs can each involve considerable driving. Although it is possible to obtain coordinates one-by-one from Google Maps, that means one has to ticky-tacky each coordinate manually into their automotive GPS, or into GSAK in order to get a GPX or LOC file that should have been available (in my opinion) right from the start.

 

Then again, that's just me. If you see a better way to use the information as it is currently presented, please share.

 

[+ecanderson]

24 minutes ago, TommyGator said:

Further, not having the coordinates readily available makes it difficult to enter them into an automotive navigation system---and a number of these AdLabs can each involve considerable driving. Although it is possible to obtain coordinates one-by-one from Google Maps, that means one has to ticky-tacky each coordinate manually into their automotive GPS, or into GSAK in order to get a GPX or LOC file that should have been available (in my opinion) right from the start.

 

 

It's not just you.  I've had the same complaint about the lab's intents passed to GM be the only means for obtaining the coordinates for use on a different preferred device.  When I build mine, I think that the coordinate data will be included in the descriptive information.

 

 

[+Max and 99]

26 minutes ago, ecanderson said:

 

It's not just you.  I've had the same complaint about the lab's intents passed to GM be the only means for obtaining the coordinates for use on a different preferred device.  When I build mine, I think that the coordinate data will be included in the descriptive information.

 

 

Genius!

[+ecanderson]

In fact, from the labs I've done, I've learned three things that I want to deal with in a better fashion than I've encountered on some others:

 

1) The coordinates issue, as noted above

2) Forced sequencing of waypoint visits

3) Use of video with the practically invisible 'Play' arrow that can't be seen on some phones

 

[+CAVinoGal]

This thread has been most informative, and I thank everyone who contributed for the insights and suggestions.  I've been working on buiding the Adventure Lab I was awarded, and I am glad the deadline was extended to October - mine was originally set to expore August 31, which seemed doable in December when I got the notification.  I still might get it done by August 31, but it's nice to know I have a couple extra months if needed!

 

I'd already decided my 5 locations could be visited in any order; they will be scattered over 10-15 miles of rural country roads and I don't want to dictate a specific order.  My husband and I can't even agree on the best route to the grocery store!  I've done labs where the coordinates for the location were included at the top of the description - I think that is a good thing to add for those that want to plug them in.  And I would rather NOT include video.  I know some PREFER video to reading, but I prefer reading, so that's how mine will be done.

 

My difficulty is narrowing my locations to 5; there are too many places that fit my theme!!  I think it will come down to the locations where I can ask the most relelvant questions and have the simplest, most obvious answers so folks can GET it right the first try, but yet you HAVE to be there to be able to get the answer.  That's becoming the most challenging part of this for me - coming up with the right question/answer for each location (that is, once I settle on the 5 locations!)

 

At this point, the nearest ones already published are 10 miles away in any direction, so I have no worries about being lost in the shuffle.  I'm still deciding on the "bonus" cahce - whether it will be clues hidden within the lab itself, or just a separate cache published that "announces" the Adventure Lab and can be found without having to do the Adventure....

[+ecanderson]

I figure it's more rewarding for the bonus cache to come as a result of the lab, especially for the numbers hounds that will appreciate having another real smiley for their efforts.

[+TommyGator]

I believe I've come to recognize the biggest issue geocachers have with AdLabs (speaking for myself), and it is a matter of philosophy, not technology.

 

The AdLab app, just like the official Geocaching app before lists were introduced, is designed to be a "spur of the moment" geocaching activity. That is, it is designed for the person who, once in a while, says to themselves, "Gee, I have some time on my hands and I wonder if there are any AdLabs currently around my present position.

 

That person opens the app, which centers on their present position, and shows them the AdLabs sorted by increasing distance from their present position (if you press on the "three bars"). Sure, you can scroll a map to see if any are elsewhere, but you won't get a listing of them except from your present position, sorted by circular distance, and only the names, distance, and whether or not you've completed them.

 

It is left to the user to individually drill down on each entry to try to determine where that AdLab might be, or click on individual pins one at a time, to get bits of information about them that require multiple app-presses---for each one.

 

Presuming that you, the user, are THIS type of cacher----the kind where your main concept of geocaching is as a spontaneous activity where your main way of caching is to say, "Gee, I wonder if there are any caches around here?" then this app is for you. It is "stand alone" and you need no other support from geocaching.com.

 

On the other hand, if you are like just about every geocacher I've known and met that really enjoys geocaching, gathers with friends to go on caching trips, PLANS where they want to go and what caches they want to go after, then this app alone just doesn't "cut it" because cachers who PLAN what they do need more information than the app provides, just like the official geocaching app, and depend on information (downloadable lists, GPX/LOC files, web pages with descriptions, etc) gathered from geocaching.com.  In fact, many become Premium members specifically to get access to MORE information from geocaching.com, because of the importance of that information to their style of caching, so much so that they pay an annual fee in order to get such access.

 

Now, this is not to say that cachers don't have spontaneous moments---I certainly do and I know others do as well---but those moments are few, as the vast majority of the caching I and others do is PLANNED, and I depend on geocaching.com and tools such as GSAK to help me organize my geocaching activities.

 

Getting the information I need to plan for AdLabs isn't provided except through the APP, and is laborious and time-consuming to extract. You can't get coordinates without drilling-down through app pages, finally getting to Google Maps, and then having to WRITE THEM DOWN (I haven't yet gotten cut-and-paste to work here) in order to transcribe them to another device or enter into a database. You can't get a listing of descriptions if the CO chose to make the AdLab sequential, if only to have the ability to enter bonus coordinates on the last page and for no other reason. And most importantly, you can't get any information whatsoever from geocaching.com, because the philosophy, at the moment, appears to be a "stand alone" app with little or no user support from the parent website.

 

Until this philosophy changes, I'm afraid frustration lay ahead for cachers who'd really like to include them but find the effort increasingly difficult and contradictory to their style and manner of caching, that style and manner which keeps them interested and invested in the hobby.

 

Of course, others will have their own opinions---this is just mine. Personally, I've had fun doing most AdLabs and look forward to more, but am getting weary of the extra work involved due to lack of parent website support. To me, it's not so much a matter of "fixing the app," as the app works relatively well for what it does. It's more a matter of providing support in terms of information from the geocaching.com website---information which would help me blend AdLabs into my "normal" geocaching activities.

Edited July 8, 2020 by TommyGator

[+wally_k]

On 6/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, TommyGator said:

You can't go home, contact the CO, get clarification, and then log the find, because you have to be AT the location in order to log it,

 

As long as you try to answer the question, the location sticks and you can input the correct answer later from home. This has always worked for me since I use a phone without data and wifi is usually not available. This doesn't  work with fixed route ALs, since you have to answer the question before you can go to the next one.

Another reason not to have a fixed route bonus cache associated with an AL.

Edited July 8, 2020 by wally_k

[+wally_k]

On 7/5/2020 at 6:10 PM, TommyGator said:

Further, not having the coordinates readily available makes it difficult to enter them into an automotive navigation system---and a number of these AdLabs can each involve considerable driving. Although it is possible to obtain coordinates one-by-one from Google Maps, that means one has to ticky-tacky each coordinate manually into their automotive GPS, or into GSAK in order to get a GPX or LOC file that should have been available (in my opinion) right from the start.

 

I'm a Garmin user and use Basecamp. I create a waypoints for all points in an AL on the map and enter them in my GPSr together with all regular caches in the area. Easy, no manual entry with Google Maps or Earth.

[+terratin]

On 7/6/2020 at 7:21 AM, ecanderson said:

In fact, from the labs I've done, I've learned three things that I want to deal with in a better fashion than I've encountered on some others:

 

1) The coordinates issue, as noted above

2) Forced sequencing of waypoint visits

3) Use of video with the practically invisible 'Play' arrow that can't be seen on some phones

 

 

I've found another annoyance:

4) somehow contact AL owner. I did an AL recently and found that the info to answer one location was missing. I could not complete the AL and hence not write a log to let the owner know there's a problem. Also no other way to contact the owner. In this case I actually found the solution by trying different dates starting from 1910 up until the 1920s, but this will not be possible everywhere.

[+ecanderson]

Won't be an issue since there will be a clearly defined bonus cache involved and my message center (not preferred, but working) and email links will provide a contact for the finder.  That's been the case for the labs I've already found, too.

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by ecanderson

[+elyob]

Doesn't the AL owner's name always match a geocacher's name, allowing for normal contact?

[+Max and 99]

General feedback: I did an AL yesterday that required me to do the stages in order. Except for being close the final at the last stage, we felt frustrated at the waste of time and gas going back and forth, passing stages that we'd already done. I did not like that one bit. 

[+terratin]

On 7/11/2020 at 5:35 PM, ecanderson said:

Won't be an issue since there will be a clearly defined bonus cache involved and my message center (not preferred, but working) and email links will provide a contact for the finder.  That's been the case for the labs I've already found, too.

 

 SO far I did exactly one AL that did have a bonus. I started another one where an AL stage is a bonus.

[+ecanderson]

In our area, all of them have had bonus caches.  Guess it depends upon the region.

[+Goldenwattle]

21 minutes ago, ecanderson said:

In our area, all of them have had bonus caches.  Guess it depends upon the region.

I think all ALs I have done have had a bonus cache too.

[+terratin]

16 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I think all ALs I have done have had a bonus cache too.

 

I've looked at 10 in the area now: one has a bonus stage, no other has a bonus cache. Thus no, it's not common everywhere.

[+Max and 99]

In my opinion, Adventure Labs are so different than geocaching. For the most part. But what really makes me think it doesn't belong is when I see every stage of an AL have a QR code taped nearby. That just makes it feel, to me, like a whole different activity.

[Lynx Humble]

1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

In my opinion, Adventure Labs are so different than geocaching. For the most part. But what really makes me think it doesn't belong is when I see every stage of an AL have a QR code taped nearby. That just makes it feel, to me, like a whole different activity.

Are you getting the password for the lab by scanning the QR code or are you referencing the QR-code-based-game-that-shall-not-be-named?

 

I run the numbers for Nova Scotia and we have currently 32 adventures for 168 lab caches (sadly more are still to come....) and 8 of those have Bonus so it's 25% over here.

[+Max and 99]

2 minutes ago, Lynx Humble said:

Are you getting the password for the lab by scanning the QR code or are you referencing the QR-code-based-game-that-shall-not-be-named?

 

I run the numbers for Nova Scotia and we have currently 32 adventures for 168 lab caches (sadly more are still to come....) and 8 of those have Bonus so it's 25% over here.

Neither.

 

Each stage of the AL mentions to look nearby for a TB code. The TB code (or more specifically, the QR code) is securely taped to something near the AL stage coordinates. So it is not integral to the AL, but having them makes it feel like a whole different game. Just my opinion/experience.

[+terratin]

Did one Al in Germany today. Nice little tour, good info on interesting features, random order of points. actually quite perfect. Oh, didn't have a bonus either.

[+terratin]

Ok, just a question: is fixed order of points the default when creating an AL? Planning a trip, and pretty much every AL I could theoretically do at least partially has a fixed order, but as far as I can see there's no reason for it. Couple of disconnected tourist sites, statues with a theme, etc.

[+Max and 99]

17 minutes ago, terratin said:

Ok, just a question: is fixed order of points the default when creating an AL? Planning a trip, and pretty much every AL I could theoretically do at least partially has a fixed order, but as far as I can see there's no reason for it. Couple of disconnected tourist sites, statues with a theme, etc.

That's a good question. I looked it up in the adventure lab builder and it's a toggle but I can't tell which is the default. Edit: I suspect based on this photo alone that it is the default but someone else will have to confirm that. 

I wonder if that selection can be edited after the adventure lab is created.

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Max and 99

[+TommyGator]

I just used the builder and the default was non-sequential.  I left it that way.

 

I've found a number of sequential AdLabs now and could not discern a thematic reason for doing so in any of them, except for hiding bonus coordinates in the last journal entry, or putting you close to the bonus cache at the end.

 

I imagine one could come up with an adventure theme for which the order might be important, but I've yet to see one.  Perhaps something that builds from stage to stage, or something like that.

Edited July 30, 2020 by TommyGator

[+Max and 99]

5 minutes ago, TommyGator said:

I just used the builder and the default was non-sequential.  I left it that way.

Good to know. Thank you for confirming!

[+terratin]

9 hours ago, TommyGator said:

I just used the builder and the default was non-sequential.  I left it that way.

 

I've found a number of sequential AdLabs now and could not discern a thematic reason for doing so in any of them, except for hiding bonus coordinates in the last journal entry, or putting you close to the bonus cache at the end.

 

I imagine one could come up with an adventure theme for which the order might be important, but I've yet to see one.  Perhaps something that builds from stage to stage, or something like that.

 

Thanks guys. I've not seen much use for sequential stuff either, and where I'm looking hardly any AL has actually a bonus, thus it doesn't make sense. I started one sequential one, walking from a random busstop back to the station. The last stage was a substantial distance in the other direction again, and what I got from the bonus pointed into yet another direction. I think there's a lot of user error involved here. Dumbing it down by removing options? Hm.. not sure. With an easy way to give feedback for uncompleted labs due to something like that it might not matter so much. But the owner will never know. (yes, I know I can search for the name on gc and then contact the owner that way. Bit too much of a bother)

[+roxetak]

Hi. The Adventure Lab is an unhappy project. Good idea, game and fun killed by a lots of negatives. 

 

1. Separate and segregate application.

2. You can see only main stage of Adventure Lab. You can't see eachother stages. 

3. Adventure Lab and each single stages are not at official Geocaching map, or application.

( You find out, that there was a stage of Adventure Lab, where you was, when you are far far away, hundreds of miles, kilometres away.) The main stage is 40 or 100 kilometres from the place where you was.

4. Missing notification of Adventure Labs.

And so on, and so on.

 

Most of geocachers doesn't play this Adventure Labs game. For these reasons. What I know. What's pity.

 

 

[+Max and 99]

On 6/11/2020 at 6:59 AM, TommyGator said:

HHL,

 

I just tried it and also found that, after you open the completed Ad Lab, then tap the overview map at the bottom, you can go to the upper right of the screen and tap on the three bars to get a menu of the individual caches.  You can tap on each one and read the descriptions.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I still can't find it. ?

[+barefootjeff]

6 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I still can't find it. ?

 

After tapping on the overview map, you should see something like this (this is on an Android):

 

 

Tapping on the three circle/line things in the top right then opens a pictorial list of the locations in that adventure:

 

 

and tapping on any of those shows the full text of the location.

 

[+thebruce0]

Sequential locations: If telling a story where locations are narratively relevant.

[+Max and 99]

8 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

and tapping on any of those shows the full text of the location.

I only see the description of the adventure lab not the text of the individual locations, which is what I thought brought about this discussion.