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vulture1957

new ISS goal

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Posted (edited)

This is mainly a question for 8Nuts and Max&99, but others may be interested.

 

I love the ISS Sightings category. I keep track of visible passes and look for waymarkers that don't have that grid square filled and try to get them to play.

 

Max&99 and I are only like 10 miles away from each other, and we both look for ISS Sighting. But we can't both make the same waymark  Or so I thought!

 

8Nuts was working on a sighting last year from Texas to France. It was the same pass, ascending in Texas, going full north then descending over western Europe.

 

There is a possibility that Max&99 could see the ISS (they are more northerly than me) and then I could see it just as it comes back on the next orbit, but I would be seeing it before it crosses where Max&99 saw it. Same pass! And, if it was SE of us on the second sighting, it's possible that 8Nuts could also see it.

 

Now I have to do some real homework on figuring out what day this might happen.

 

Edit: no chance for it here in Oklahoma till the end of the year, with info as of today. But when the ISS changes it's orbit, things change. So I'll keep looking.

Edited by vulture1957
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here's what I'm talking about, other than the ISS doesn't get over 45°.

Date Brightness Start Highest point End Pass type
(mag) Time Alt. Az. Time Alt. Az. Time Alt. Az.
30 Mar -0.9 21:46:30 10° N 21:46:55 11° N 21:46:55 11° N visible
01 Apr -1.6 21:47:08 10° NNW 21:48:47 20° N 21:48:47 20° N visible
02 Apr -1.7 21:00:03 10° NNW 21:02:15 16° NNE 21:03:16 14° NE visible
02 Apr -0.3 22:36:00 10° NW 22:36:14 12° NW 22:36:14 12° NW visible

 

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Hey, would this work for one person to do BOTH sightings? They would be more than one minute of flight time between them.

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9 minutes ago, vulture1957 said:

Hey, would this work for one person to do BOTH sightings? They would be more than one minute of flight time between them.

 

That's an interesting thought. So, if I can catch consecutive passes I get the prize?

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Is there any reason that the experiment does not officially qualify?

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1 minute ago, ScroogieII said:

The Nutty Octagonal Gosling Herder would be the one to ask, no?

 

 

Correct.

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My first attempt at this category years ago was a nearly full orbit.  It was denied.

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51 minutes ago, elyob said:

My first attempt at this category years ago was a nearly full orbit.  It was denied.

 

That's right - stomp all over our dreams. :(

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32 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Do you remember the reason?

I don't recall.  Because it was my first attempt, I suspect there were many issues.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Max wants to know if he can partner with himself for an ISS pass? Hit the freeway, drive for an hour, and view the ISS again on the same pass.

 

"Participants need to be at least one minute of ISS travel time (293 miles or 472 km) apart"

Gotta figure out which make of car currently available on the open market might be able to attain these numbers. Off the top of my head, NHRA Top Fuelers and Funny Cars (top speed ~ 300MPH) might do the trick, but they generally only carry enough fuel for a quarter to a half mile. All the necessary refueling stops might cut into their average speed somewhat. :)

Edited by ScroogieII

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Posted (edited)

I'm sitting here giggling at the moment. That has to be the MOST HYPERBOLIC hyperbole I've ever written (or spoken, for that matter).

Edited by ScroogieII

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Posted (edited)

I reiterate:

"Participants need to be at least one minute of ISS travel time (293 miles or 472 km) apart"

Still, you've now introduced a lesser drive time of 30 minutes. My Top Fueler would STILL require "a few" fuel stops during that 30 minute drive.

If you can drive 293 miles in 30 minutes, more power (which you'll evidently need) to you.

I'm just quoting the requirements. Beyond that, what do I know?

 

If you've found a loophole, or a wormhole, go for it!!!

 

Edited by ScroogieII

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Participant 2 would be approximately 89 minutes flight time  from Participant 1.

 

You initially said "view the ISS again on the same pass". 89 minutes of ISS travel time, with respect to much the same location, does not say "the same pass" to me.

Edited by ScroogieII

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But it is the same pass, let's say the full orbit is 90 minutes and this experiment would be 90 minutes less a couple.

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5 hours ago, elyob said:

But it is the same pass, let's say the full orbit is 90 minutes and this experiment would be 90 minutes less a couple.

 

You have a point, however moot it may be.

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17 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

Max wants to know if he can partner with himself for an ISS pass? Hit the freeway, drive for an hour, and view the ISS again on the same pass.

I'm thinking that if I can find a pass that goes about 50° to the southeast, then the next pass could be over 45° to the NW. Just drive from Edmond to south OKC, Moore, maybe Norman.  I think I've seen 2 passes in succession that this worked on, but not in the near past. You would be the viewer for the first sighting, I'd be the 2nd. Or it could be just Max (or you, or me) for both.

I still haven't gone and re-read the details of the waymark. I know the original premise was to get 2 or more people to work together, but I don't know if that is written specifically in the write-up. And, 8Nuts may be lenient for something so unusual.

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1 hour ago, vulture1957 said:

it's not moot. It is the whole idea of this thread.

 

Yeabut - it is moot if it won't be accepted by the powers that be.

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9 minutes ago, ScroogieII said:

 

Yeabut - it is moot if it won't be accepted by the powers that be.

8Nuts will be on here soon, and I'm sure he'll enlighten us all on the merits of my ideas. I'm sure it will work for 2 different waymarkers (me and Max&99). That's my main goal. But this could also work for me to get a sighting with someone from maybe Arizona. Or players in New York and Ohio.

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18 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Just maybe, the wording could be tweaked to something like this: 

The minimum distance between you and a partner who watches the ISS after you will need to be at least one minute flight time. I believe this reflects the intended purpose of the minimum distance. I know what it says, but I believe this is what it means.

 

Close but:

"The minimum distance between you and a partner who watches the ISS before or after you will need to be at least one minute's flight time."

Otherwise, I agree with that completely.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ScroogieII said:

 

Close but:

"The minimum distance between you and a partner who watches the ISS before or after you will need to be at least one minute's flight time."

Otherwise, I agree with that completely.

"The minimum distance between you and a partner who watches the ISS before or after you on the same orbit will need to be at least one minute's flight time."

Edited by vulture1957
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, vulture1957 said:

"The minimum distance between you and a partner who watches the ISS before or after you on the same orbit will need to be at least one minute's flight time."

 

Mea Culpa

GOOD!!! Like a good wine, the definition improves with age.

Edited by ScroogieII

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On 3/20/2020 at 5:24 PM, elyob said:

My first attempt at this category years ago was a nearly full orbit.  It was denied.

On 3/20/2020 at 6:20 PM, Max and 99 said:

Do you remember the reason?

AH, YES. THE REASON IS ALWAYS IMPORTANT.

elyob's ISS Waymark was declined because it was not the same visible pass.

The ISS was observed by the first person. The ISS then passed through daytime before it was observed by the second person.

A VISIBLE PASS IS A SINGLE PASS THROUGH THE NIGHT SKY WHILE THE ISS IS REFLECTING SUNLIGHT. 

When the ISS enters Earths daylight sky it is no longer visible and the visible pass ends.

When the ISS enters Earths shadow it is no longer visible and the visible pass ends.

Look at the Heavens Above Web site:

"Visible Only" is always checked. If you check All, you will also see all the daytime passes and the Earths shadow passes.

So, to answer your question - No, a 90 minute Waymark with yourself is not possible.

 

BUT... to throw one more question at you - During that 90 minutes, did the ISS enter the Earths shadow while traveling over the southern hemisphere, thus ending your dream visible pass?

Visible Passes.jpg

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Posted (edited)

well, I guess that answers that. All my preparations for naught.

 

But, it was a good idea.

Edited by vulture1957

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Posted (edited)

And so ends yet another bizarre adventure into the Twilight Zone.

It seems that the word visible was essentially invisible to all concerned.

Edited by ScroogieII

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Posted (edited)

Having done this a few times since, that explanation for the long-ago denial now makes more sense.

Edited by elyob

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Posted (edited)

Theoretically speaking, what is the longest possible single visible pass (in minutes)?  My head is spinning.

Edited by elyob
I should have written minutes rather than hours.

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2 minutes ago, ScroogieII said:

And so ends yet another bizarre adventure into the Twilight Zone.

It was fun to think about while it lasted.

And there is still nothing to stop you from trying it and reporting it on this forum.

The farther north/south you are, the closer the sequential passes are.

ScroogieII would be the best guess at doing it first. The first pass would pass to his SE/E going up and to his W/SW going down.

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6 minutes ago, elyob said:

Theoretically speaking, what is the longest possible single visible pass (in hours)?  My head is spinning.

Three or four years ago I had one pass by me just after sunset, stayed lit all night and hit sunrise on the east coast of Africa near the Equator. If I remember correctly, it flew over Spain. Total time would still be a little less than 45 minutes flight time and 8 time zones.

 

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On 3/22/2020 at 7:25 PM, 8Nuts MotherGoose said:

AH, YES. THE REASON IS ALWAYS IMPORTANT.

elyob's ISS Waymark was declined because it was not the same visible pass.

The ISS was observed by the first person. The ISS then passed through daytime before it was observed by the second person.

A VISIBLE PASS IS A SINGLE PASS THROUGH THE NIGHT SKY WHILE THE ISS IS REFLECTING SUNLIGHT. 

When the ISS enters Earths daylight sky it is no longer visible and the visible pass ends.

When the ISS enters Earths shadow it is no longer visible and the visible pass ends.

Look at the Heavens Above Web site:

"Visible Only" is always checked. If you check All, you will also see all the daytime passes and the Earths shadow passes.

So, to answer your question - No, a 90 minute Waymark with yourself is not possible.

 

BUT... to throw one more question at you - During that 90 minutes, did the ISS enter the Earths shadow while traveling over the southern hemisphere, thus ending your dream visible pass?

Visible Passes.jpg

 

I didn't want to argue ... but I keep reading the Expanded Description for ISS Sightings. It says "All players will have to spot the ISS during the same orbit."

Nowhere does it say the must be in the same visible track.

So, once again, if I can find a date with 2 visible sightings, there is a chance at getting a second player to see the iSS west of my longitude (that would make it on the same orbit, as the ISS tracks east across the globe) and they would be more than 1 minute of travel -- almost 90 minutes.

 

Can someone show me where I am wrong??

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I looked at n2yo.com for a different view of ISS trajectory. It looks like I might be able to get a sighting from Perth Australia to the central US. Now to see if the ISS will stay out of the shadow for that long of a pass. Something like the couple of US-Spain viewings.

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On 3/26/2020 at 12:31 PM, vulture1957 said:

I didn't want to argue ... but I keep reading the Expanded Description for ISS Sightings. It says "All players will have to spot the ISS during the same orbit."

Nowhere does it say the must be in the same visible track.

So, once again, if I can find a date with 2 visible sightings, there is a chance at getting a second player to see the iSS west of my longitude (that would make it on the same orbit, as the ISS tracks east across the globe) and they would be more than 1 minute of travel -- almost 90 minutes.

 

Can someone show me where I am wrong??

Sorry about the delayed response - I had a rough weekend. They say trouble comes in threes. And it did. All three hit me this weekend. Two major repairs and one minor repair.

 

An orbit begins and is numbered from where it crosses the Equator on the ascendant part of the path.

This means two people on the south and north side of the Equator can not pair up to view a pass during the ascendant part of the pass because it would be two different orbits, even though it is the same visible pass. We did not want to put this restriction on people who live along the Equator.

If we allow unrestricted viewings that pass through daytime and nighttime, what's to prevent 2 people from viewing the ISS a day apart. Or a week, month, or year apart? That completely changes the intent of this Category.

 

I am in the process of rewriting the instructions for this Category, which it desperately needs. Currently, the terms "Orbit" and "Pass" seem to have the same meaning. There is also no definition of "Visible Pass", of when it starts, or when it ends. I hope to have the rewrite completed  and reviewed for original intent by May 1st. I will post it on this Waymark Forum for your review and comments.

 

On may 16, 2016, The ISS completed its 100,000th orbit and traveled more than 2.64 billion miles (4.25 billion km). That's equivalent to 10 round trips to Mars or a little less than the distance to Neptune.

https://www.space.com/32893-international-space-station-100000-orbits.html

https://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/Tools/orbitTutorial.htm

 

 

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On 3/31/2020 about 8:47 pm, 8NutsMotherGoose said:

If we allow unrestricted viewings that pass through daytime and nighttime, what's to prevent 2 people from viewing the ISS a day apart. Or a week, month, or year apart? That completely changes the intent of this Category.

 

Who said unrestricted viewing. One orbit is once around the earth. As long as it hasn't passes by the same point, it is still the same orbit. One trip around the earth. About 90 minutes apart.

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If you look at the 3rd paragraph of the Expanded Description - It describes setting up 3 people between twilight and the Earths shadow. To me that is describing 3 people viewing the ISS during one dark period from beginning to end.

In the next sentence of the same paragraph he says, "The band of daylight that the ISS flies through over areas that are dark enough to see it is pretty narrow most of the time." To me, that sentence is miss-worded because you can't have "areas that are dark" during "daylight." It makes more sense if "daylight" is replaced with "sky", thus reading, "The band of sky that the ISS flies through over areas that are dark enough to see it is pretty narrow most of the time." If he was allowing a full orbit, there would be no need to mention how narrow the dark area is. Once again this indicates the original intent was to view the ISS during a single pass through the dark area.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Expanded Description for ISS Sightings. It says "All players will have to spot the ISS during the same orbit."

 

THIS indicates the intent to allow a full orbit. It DOES NOT say the same dark transition. Orbit.

 

The other sentences state the simple way to get 2 or 3 players, on a single pass thru a single dark transition.

It didn't say anything about getting players on different continents, like the sighting with Spain on a pass that started in North America! You can't see all the way to Europe on a view on Heavens Above, so the players had to work to see that it was in the same pass. I'm trying to do the work to get an almost full orbit.

 

And it does say in the Expanded Description about trying to get the longest sightings off a single track. The suggestion of 3 players about 900 miles apart would then have killed the NA-Spain sighting.

Edited by vulture1957
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Vulture 1957 said, "You can't see all the way to Europe on a view on Heavens Above, so the players had to work to see that it was in the same pass. I'm trying to do the work to get an almost full orbit."

15 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I don't know how to tell if there is a shadow on the pass between me and my partner on the other side of the earth. 

If you go to the Heavens above page that shows your list of passes - then look to the top left of the page and click on "Orbit" The lower one shows the current ISS path around the world, including where it can be seen in the night time sky both after sunset and before sunrise.

For searches on future dates, I open several Heavens Above pages and change coordinates on each page to follow the ISS path across the ocean to Europe. I also change time zones along the way. IF the ISS enters the Earths shadow along the way, the path line turns from solid to dotted. From some date in May to some date in July or August, The Sun shines over the North pole and keeps the ISS lit all the way across the ocean and into Europe. That is when we create the NA / Europe Waymarks.

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19 hours ago, 8Nuts MotherGoose said:

I am in the process of rewriting the instructions for this Category, which it desperately needs. Currently, the terms "Orbit" and "Pass" seem to have the same meaning. There is also no definition of "Visible Pass", of when it starts, or when it ends. I hope to have the rewrite completed  and reviewed for original intent by May 1st. I will post it on this Waymark Forum for your review and comments.

OK then. I'll stop discussing, and stop playing the game of ISS sightings. I got mine. No new goals to get here.

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Posted (edited)

Here is a photo I took last year of the Heavens Above world map when there was no Earths shadow on the ISS.

Note how the Upper ISS pass and the upper night time shadow are aligned.

 

May 18-19 2019 GMT-6.jpg

Edited by 8Nuts MotherGoose
Added 2nd line.

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3 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

I'm afraid that doesn't help me, but thank you for trying to explain.

this is a clip of tonight's pass over Great Falls, MT. If you look between 20:49 and 20:50, it turns from a solid line to a dashed line. Dahes indicate shadow.

 

 

Apr 1 2020.PNG

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Posted (edited)
On 4/1/2020 at 8:50 PM, Max and 99 said:

Yes, but how do I see that when using locations across the world from each other? The graph that 8 nuts recommended looks like it's never a solid line. How can I see, in advance, if there is a dotted line between me and Spain a month from now?

that graph 8Nuts suggests using only shows the current orbit. So the only one to use for future passes only shows a limited field of view, and then you have to try to figure out locations east of you an keep tracking the ISS a bit at a time.Oh, and you have to keep track of the time zones and the changes in time.

Edited by vulture1957

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Posted (edited)
On 4/1/2020 at 8:50 PM, Max and 99 said:

Yes, but how do I see that when using locations across the world from each other? The graph that 8 nuts recommended looks like it's never a solid line. How can I see, in advance, if there is a dotted line between me and Spain a month from now?

 

On 4/2/2020 at 2:24 AM, vulture1957 said:

that graph 8Nuts suggests using only shows the current orbit. So the only one to use for future passes only shows a limited field of view, and then you have to try to figure out locations east of you an keep tracking the ISS a bit at a time.Oh, and you have to keep track of the tie zones and the changes in time.

I will describe how to follow and check for Earths shadow (Dotted line) along an ISS Track across the ocean between N. America and Europe. I will do this by posting a New Thread on the Forum. It will be titled, "How to Follow a Future ISS Pass Across The Atlantic Ocean." The main purposes will be to see a shadow, and find check points along the path while crossing the ocean. This will take some time to write up. Don't expect it to appear before late afternoon.  Some of the information you will already know, some will be new and may surprise you. We will follow a Pass from Jacksonville, FL.,  May 14, 21:45 to Paris, France, May 15, 04:02. There is a 10 minute period when the ISS enters the Earths Shadow and then comes back out of the shadow.

Edited by 8Nuts MotherGoose
clarification.

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no need to follow it after it hits the shadow. No longer   in a viewable orbit. Orbits stop after dotted lines.

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