Letterboxing?

[+CJPJ]

Just getting back into the game, and just learning more on letterboxing.  It seems that most sites are dead, and found very few in my area.  Anyone know of good links or site to start the journey?

 

[+L0ne.R]

I'm not sure if we can name letterboxing sites. Do a google search for: letterboxing sites. Statistically letterboxing peaked in 2008 and has been on a steady decline, but some areas are still relatively active. Events are still popular in my area. 

[+cerberus1]

16 hours ago, CJPJ said:

Just getting back into the game, and just learning more on letterboxing. 

It seems that most sites are dead, and found very few in my area.  Anyone know of good links or site to start the journey?

 

We've found that many places there's geocaches, a letterbox happens to be nearby.  Usually state parks, some game lands, and always in the woods.

Have you considered  this hobby's Letterbox Hybrids  cache type ?   

There's around 20 , roughly 35-50 miles away from your first cache found..   

[+L0ne.R]

4 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Have you considered  this hobby's Letterbox Hybrids  cache type ?   

 

Just be aware though, if s/he enjoys letterboxing for the unique carved stamp images, it is unlikely they will find handcarved stamps in a GC letterbox hybrid. 

 

Here are some examples of what I have found in my area when I searched for letterboxes via the AQ site:

 

       

 

 

 

Here's what I find in my area when I find letterboxes via the geocaching site:

 

 

[+Harry Dolphin]

13 minutes ago, L0ne.R said:

Just be aware though, if s/he enjoys letterboxing for the unique carved stamp images, it is unlikely they will find handcarved stamps in a GC letterbox hybrid. 

 

Mine has a hand-carved stamp!

 

[+Lynx Humble]

10 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

Have you considered  this hobby's Letterbox Hybrids  cache type ?   

This hobby Letterbox Hybrids are a joke it's just a regular cache with a random stamp. Groundspeak removed the trail description to get there but that was what made a Letterbox a Letterbox.

[+Goldenwattle]

Occasionally I still find a good letterbox cache where the person has made an effort. A real letterbox; a home made almost life-size metal man with compartments and a trick how to get in; a home-made metal sailing boat; something that makes the cache special. I used to make an effort to include letterbox caches on my list of caches for the day, as they added that bit more. Now days, unless I know otherwise, they are just ordinary caches and I treat them as such. I do have a personal stamp and I used to take that to letterbox caches, but now hardly ever. They don't deserve a stamp, as who cares, the CO obviously doesn't if a small sistema is the best they can come up with and a too small a log to stamp.

A letter box cache should be better than the bog standard traditional cache; have something special, and before it is published the CO should explain why it should be a letterbox cache rather than a traditional; supplying photographs if need be.

[+JustFindingOurWay]

On 3/15/2020 at 6:45 PM, Lynx Humble said:

This hobby Letterbox Hybrids are a joke it's just a regular cache with a random stamp. Groundspeak removed the trail description to get there but that was what made a Letterbox a Letterbox.

 

While that may be true in your area, it's certainly not the case in mine! None of the 57 letterbox hybrids I've placed are at the posted coordinates although one is close.  That's true for the other two most prolific LBH COs in this state as well.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, JustFindingOurWay said:

While that may be true in your area, it's certainly not the case in mine! None of the 57 letterbox hybrids I've placed are at the posted coordinates although one is close.  That's true for the other two most prolific LBH COs in this state as well.

It seems to be a regional thing. Around here, none of the LBH caches that I've found have been at the posted coordinates. They've all used letterbox-style clues to navigate from the posted coordinates (a specific location, not a park entrance or a parking lot or trailhead or anything like that) to the final location. But when caching elsewhere, I've discovered a lot of "traditional with a stamp" style LBH caches. (I didn't bother searching for any of them, but they came up on my site searches.)

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 3/14/2020 at 6:47 PM, L0ne.R said:

I'm not sure if we can name letterboxing sites. Do a google search for: letterboxing sites. Statistically letterboxing peaked in 2008 and has been on a steady decline, but some areas are still relatively active. Events are still popular in my area. 

 

Once snartphones started to become prevalent I would expect GPS games to eclipse similar non-GPS outdoor games. Then again, painted rocks became a thing so maybe not.

 

I have encountered some clue-based LBH, usually specific COs. I often find them to be rather difficult, probably because I'm not used to that sort of thing.

 

I liked letterbox hybrids because they had to be big enough to hold a stamp and ink pad. That pretty much guaranteed a decent size container. Unfortunately, smaller self-inking stamps have come into use in LBH that make that no longer true. I never cared about the stamps themselves.

[+coachstahly]

Some are done in the more traditional manner while many are just a cache with a stamp at the posted coordinates.  I prefer the former over the latter but have found a few nice ones of the latter type done well, with neat locations and a hand carved stamp at one of them.  I don't hand carve my stamps but I make sure to incorporate the stamp into the theme of the LBH, rather than placing it with a stamp just to have one out.  I DO carry a notebook and ink pad with me when caching to collect the stamps (assuming one is still in there, which isn't always the case) and just started my second notebook as my first filled up after almost 10 years. 

[+L0ne.R]

42 minutes ago, JL_HSTRE said:

I never cared about the stamps themselves.

 

It's the number one reason I cared about Letterboxing. On the GC site it was the distinguishing feature. Otherwise a cache with directions to follow falls under the Mystery/Puzzle category. But people like collecting icons so the appeal on the GC site is the icon, not a unique custom-made stamp image to collect. I feel that letterboxes should be grandfathered, they should be under the Mystery/Puzzle umbrella, perhaps an attribute for a stamp would suffice. Though I doubt an attribute is necessary. Very few cachers care about the stamp. However,  Groundspeak would get an angry earful from all the icon collectors if they grandfathered the Letterbox icon. 

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

It's the number one reason I cared about Letterboxing. On the GC site it was the distinguishing feature. Otherwise a cache with directions to follow falls under the Mystery/Puzzle category. But people like collecting icons so the appeal on the GC site is the icon, not a unique custom-made stamp image to collect.

I feel that letterboxes should be grandfathered, they should be under the Mystery/Puzzle umbrella, perhaps an attribute for a stamp would suffice. Though I doubt an attribute is necessary. Very few cachers care about the stamp. However,  Groundspeak would get an angry earful from all the icon collectors if they grandfathered the Letterbox icon. 

 

I'm not so negative,  thinking that since the cache type is working as-intended in many areas,  there's little reason to "grandfather" it. 

I'd be happy to find more in my area.  We have plans now for two, maybe this Summer.   

[+L0ne.R]

10 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

I'm not so negative,  thinking that since the cache type is working as-intended in many areas,  there's little reason to "grandfather" it. 

I'd be happy to find more in my area.  We have plans now for two, maybe this Summer.   

 

Why not make them Mystery/Puzzle caches instead of "Letterbox"? What do you intend to use as a stamp? Something one-of-a-kind custom-made? If not, it supports my statement that it's about the icon, not the original intent of letterboxing.

 

The original intent on the GC site was to attract and provide a database for letterboxers, before letterboxers had a database (they were using Yahoo groups). Back in the early days Groundspeak even had a link to letterboxing.org in their "letterbox hybrid" definition. And the definition was simple: the cache had a stamp inside.  The stamp plays an integral part and needs to be unique. Letterboxers historically used a custom-made (Dartmoor stamps) or handcarved stamp (North America) to create a unique indentifier that was collected and proof that a letterbox was found and visited. 

Edited March 20, 2020 by L0ne.R

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, L0ne.R said:

Why not make them Mystery/Puzzle caches instead of "Letterbox"? What do you intend to use as a stamp? Something one-of-a-kind custom-made? If not, it supports my statement that it's about the icon, not the original intent of letterboxing.

 

I have made only one Letterbox hybrid. In my case, it was the only cache type allowed for my special cache idea. I made a simple custom stamp to fullfill the stamp requirement. The cache is possible to find by following clues without any use of GPS or you can solve a puzzle to find coordinates to the cache.

Edited March 19, 2020 by arisoft

[fendmar]

31 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

I made a simple custom stamp to fullfill the stamp requirement.

I always figured I could carve a smiley face into the end of a pencil eraser and use that.

 

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

Why not make them Mystery/Puzzle caches instead of "Letterbox"? 

What do you intend to use as a stamp? Something one-of-a-kind custom-made? If not, it supports my statement that it's about the icon, not the original intent of letterboxing.

 

The original intent on the GC site was to attract and provide a database for letterboxers, before letterboxers had a database (they were using Yahoo groups). Back in the early days they even had a link to letterboxing.org in their "letterbox hybrid" definition. And the definition was simple: the cach had a stamp inside.  The stamp plays an integral part and needs to be unique. Letterboxers historically used a custom-made (Dartmoor stamps) or handcarved stamp (North America) to create a unique indentifier that was collected and proof that a letterbox was found and visited. 

 

You can berate others all you want, but just to knock this off our end, all our stamps are custom...

 - But the only requirement is a stamp...

 

I haven't heard anything about an "original intent" of Groundspeak and letterbox hybrids, other than it was a new cache type presented, with a brief mention of letterboxing.

 - Please provide a link.  Thanks.  

No where have I seen any mention of a unique, "custom stamp" needed,  and there's still a link to letterboxing in the cache description.

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

I haven't heard anything about an "original intent" of Groundspeak and letterbox hybrids, other than it was a new cache type presented, with a brief mention of letterboxing.

 

First Letterbox Hybrids were published at very early stage. For example: https://coord.info/GC2D

There were no attributes available at that time and the cache type was used to warn about the stamp in the cache.

Groudspeak was not existing at that time so there can't be any "original intent"

[+L0ne.R]

4 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

First Letterbox Hybrids were published at very early stage. For example: https://coord.info/GC2D

There were no attributes available at that time and the cache type was used to warn about the stamp in the cache.

Groudspeak was not existing at that time so there can't be any "original intent"

 

That’s interesting. Thanks for the link. 

 

You would also need to have read the yahoo group messages between the Letterboxing  group founders and Jeremy Irish in that time period, to get a fuller picture of intent. 

[+The Jester]

I see two different caches lumped under the LBH type:

  1.  A cache with letterbox elements (primarily the stamp);

  2.  A letterbox with geocache elements (primarily GPS use 'somewhere' in the hunt).

These are two very different animals. 

 

And you have two different primary viewpoints looking at LBH's:

  1.  Cachers who see a quirky difference to the LBH's containing a stamp;

  2.  Letterboxers who see all the history of letterboxing (hand carved stamps, clue trails leading to the box, etc.) lost in many LBH's.

As these different things collide, they engender emotions ranging from "meh" to total outrage.  I think we need to work at accepting both styles and viewpoints. 

 

It might be kind of cool if a letterboxer/cacher would design a series of LBH's that displayed/taught finders of the various aspects and history of letterboxing.  Starting with a simple box with a stamp and going onto simple and complex styles of clue trails.

[+JL_HSTRE]

22 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

I feel that letterboxes should be grandfathered, they should be under the Mystery/Puzzle umbrella, perhaps an attribute for a stamp would suffice. Though I doubt an attribute is necessary. Very few cachers care about the stamp. 

 

If LBH caches were introduced today I'm sure they would be an Attribute, not a cache type. But they've been around so long and predate Attributes so I don't think they will go away.

 

That said, I think there are probably more cachers who collect LBH stamps and/or have their own stamp which they use in LBH logbooks than there are diehard puzzle solvers. I don't think either one is going away.

[+coachstahly]

23 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

But people like collecting icons so the appeal on the GC site is the icon, not a unique custom-made stamp image to collect....Very few cachers care about the stamp. However,  Groundspeak would get an angry earful from all the icon collectors if they grandfathered the Letterbox icon. 

 

While I'm certain what you're saying is partially true, again you apply your observations and make a generalization.  Are there some who only care about the icon?  I'm sure there are.  However, I know some cachers who do care about the stamp and, at least in my community, it's more than a very few.  If I had to guess, it's probably 1 out of 5.  They have their own stamp and they collect, like I do, imprints of the stamps in the caches.  If they were to grandfather the LBHs, then I'm sure GS would hear from people but if they already have the LBH icon added to their found list, then why would they be complaining?  They already have the icon; finding more isn't going to give them another icon.

 

Don't you think that some cachers (a smaller portion than the general LBH hider) would complain based on the exact things that you so lament - that they created a custom stamp and created a traditional set of directions to get the seeker to the letterbox - and now that option to distinguish it from other caches has been taken away?.  Why eliminate those cachers/letterboxers from geocaching because you dislike the ones that apparently only collect it for the icon and could care less about the stamp?  Why take away from their fun because you believe finders only care about the icon and don't care about the stamp?  This is like taking your ball home because you don't like how the game is being played so now no one can play at all.  Instead of allowing those who enjoy LBHs to keep hiding and finding them, you want to remove the distinguishing factor (the icon) for everybody and replace it with an attribute, making it just one more type of cache that falls within an already crowded field.

 

21 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

The stamp plays an integral part and needs to be unique.

 

It "needs"?  I'm sure for a letterboxing site, the preference is for a custom, unique stamp but even there, I'm finding conflicting information.  "...an image from a miniature piece of art known as a rubber stamp—usually a unique, hand-carved creation." (Atlas Quest)  "Individual letterboxes usually contain a log book, an often hand-carved rubber stamp and occasionally contain an ink pad." (Letterboxing North America)  "If you'd rather, you can buy a ready-made stamp at a stationary or crafts store. "(Letterboxing.info)  None of these state that it MUST be or NEEDS to be a unique stamp.  With the exception of the last example, the implication is that the preference is for a unique hand-carved stamp but there's certainly no requirement.

 

It seems to me that geocaching opted for a different cache type for a reason, that allowed for the combination of the two types of activities.  Knowing that a GPS was needed (unlike in traditional letterboxing) at some point (this IS a location based activity), they probably realized that there was going to be a difference between the two activities, regardless of what the discussions between the two entities might entail.  Knowing that geocaching already had different types of caches, the easiest manner in which to differentiate between those caches and a letterbox was to create a new type of cache, not fold it into a different group of existent caches (unknown/puzzles) and create a new attribute (how long has it been since a new attribute has been added?).  That could entice letterboxers to cross list their letterboxes, knowing that their letterboxes would stand out from the rest of the caches and it would also allow, based on the manner in which these "hybrids" were defined, for existing cachers to place a "new" type of cache, the only real requirement being that there needed to be a stamp in the cache for it to be listed as a LBH.  Not only could it increase the database of caches (should they opt to cross list) it could also potentially increase the number of members, assuming the letterboxers joined to find other letterboxes that might be cross listed.  I'm sure the preference was, initially, that cachers would create letterboxes in the same vein as traditional letterboxes, only using the GPS when required (beginning, middle, or end as well as the final location for saturation guidelines), providing written instructions to get you from point to point, and a custom stamp.  However, like letterboxing, although the preference is for unique stamps, they probably realized they couldn't require it and allowed for some leeway, which now has become more the norm.  The same has gone for LBHs that are at the posted coordinates.  Although COs can provide detailed instructions, it's not a required facet of the LBH, unlike a traditional letterbox (which the ones listed on this site are not or ever claimed to be).

 

While my preference is for a more "traditional" letterbox over one at the posted coordinates, my preference also lies with stamps that are used (either unique or store bought) thematically within the LBH.  Stamps used solely to create a LBH (either with or without written instructions) are extremely unlikely to get a FP from me.  I always hope to find a related stamp when doing a LBH because that makes it more memorable.  Just like with any other type of cache, the amount of effort a CO goes to to create a more memorable experience, the more likely I am to enjoy their cache.  There are plenty of traditional caches that meet the bare minimum.  There are plenty of multi caches that meet the bare minimum.  There are plenty of puzzles/unknowns that meet the bare minimum.  However, I don't see anyone calling for them to be removed or reclassified in some manner because they're not done "right" or don't live up to some perceived standard of quality, until such time as they fall below the standards established by GS.  As long as they meet the requirements to be listed on this site, they're allowed and they will be published.  That doesn't mean I will go out and find them nor does it mean that everyone else should go out and find them.  That doesn't mean that I will hide a cache that meets the bare minimum nor does it mean that everyone else should hide a cache that meets the bare minimum.  All of this is left up to individual choice, with the guidelines providing the basic foundation for what is and is not acceptable as a cache or as a cache type.

[+cerberus1]

Guess I don't understand why there's any negativity to the Letterbox Hybrid cache type. 

 - The name means  something made by combining different elements, a mixture.  

It doesn't seem (to me) to be anything other than a geocache that also has some letterbox elements.

Comparing the two, stating this hobby's version isn't correct, just because of a non-"custom" stamp is silly...

In "getting started" on the site that LOne.R mentioned, it merely says , "  Most letterboxers usually start with a store-bought stamp, but when you get a chance, try carving your own rubber stamp."

 - For this hobby (we're geocachers...) that recommendation  wouldn't even apply to us anyway...

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by cerberus1

[+hal-an-tow]

1 hour ago, cerberus1 said:

Guess I don't understand why there's any negativity to the Letterbox Hybrid cache type.

 

Me neither.

 

It's a weird quirky cache type that can be a fun outlier from the normal, where it's always best to read the listing before you set out to find it , but one thing you can be sure is that it will be a container that's not a nano. 

 

There are plenty of people who come on here to announce that high terrain caches, puzzles, wherigos  etc etc are not 'proper' caching and should be killed off , they don't like them, they are not caching, they should be abolished . That is utter, blinkered , thoughtless , nonsense. It's the diversity of cache types, terrains, hides and the inventiveness of cache setters which gives some depth to the hobby beyond the scrabble for numbers, and keeps us interested when we've been caching a while  .